Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

(How difficult can it be to slide a plastic rod into the spark plug hole and "feel" the piston rise up, hesitate, and then begin dropping down ... as the piston passes thru TDC?

Because nobody had said just this, which is what I needed. I have an I.Q. of 148, tested twice, but still have to have someone state that. Once I get it, I get it really well, so people usually get pretty upset. As if I'm faking being dumb to mess with them, make them over-explain.

Right now, I am taking the vent thing off in the engine, need a 7/16ths box end wrench. I was able to obtain an air compressor, and did not havethe timing marks on the engine to automatically ind TDC on the compression stroke. I guess there is the exhaust and comp.

What I'll do is, remove this, then the full valve cover, and then try cranking using the starter key, and put a screwdriver in the spark plug hole.

When it is up, and both push rods are down, I'll attach the a/c and then pump it up, then do the valve top part, which looks pretty easy now. Compress, remove two retainers, slide off the compressor tool, compress th new spring, put it on with the little hat, add the retainers, and then release it, and use a hammer to make sure it sits correctly.

How does that sound? I plan on using the screwdriver to tell when it is up.

I have a valve compression tool, can this help in any way?

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Looking at your video .... and assuming no disassembly work has been done on the fulcrum hold down bolt, no loosening, ....since the valve cover was removed .... then that hold down bolt is far too loose, allowing the rocker to be loose and, possibly, the push-rod escape.

It makes me guess that some repair work has been done on this engine in its past. ??.

My sister will not say. The isolator bolts are all green-shouldered, so I returned them, so it could dl have been fixed.

It could also have been sabotaged, except for the grease or oil gum around the valve cover broke free a little easily, and covered the edge. So, perhaps?

I'll try re-torquing, just to be sure. Good suggestion!

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

My sister will not say. The isolator bolts are all green-shouldered, so I returned them, so it could dl have been fixed.

It could also have been sabotaged, except for the grease or oil gum around the valve cover broke free a little easily, and covered the edge. So, perhaps?

I'll try re-torquing, just to be sure. Good suggestion!

I am now confused, are you saying that the spring is not broken?? (You should be able to visually see the spring is broken)


DO NOT HAVE THE SREWDRIVER IN THE SPARK HOLE AND CRANK THE ENGINE WITH THE KEY AND STARTER, YOU COULD CAUSE DAMAGE THAT WAY.

Once you have the piston coming up on comprression stroke with the key and starter, remove battery negative cable and turn the crankshaft with a socket and ratchet slowly until TDC is reached, using the starter will spin the engine past TDC and with the screw driver in the clyinder can cause damge to piston, valves, clyinder wall and spark plug hole threads.

CONSIDER HOW LONG IT TOOK YOU TO REMOVE COWL AND VALVE COVER, COULD SOMEONE HAVE REMOVED EVERYTHING TO SABATOGE AND REINSTALL WITHOUT SOMEONE NOTICING????

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

I am now confused, are you saying that the spring is not broken?? (You should be able to visually see the spring is broken)


DO NOT HAVE THE SREWDRIVER IN THE SPARK HOLE AND CRANK THE ENGINE WITH THE KEY AND STARTER, YOU COULD CAUSE DAMAGE THAT WAY.

Once you have the piston coming up on comprression stroke with the key and starter, remove battery negative cable and turn the crankshaft with a socket and ratchet slowly until TDC is reached, using the starter will spin the engine past TDC and with the screw driver in the clyinder can cause damge to piston, valves, clyinder wall and spark plug hole threads.

CONSIDER HOW LONG IT TOOK YOU TO REMOVE COWL AND VALVE COVER, COULD SOMEONE HAVE REMOVED EVERYTHING TO SABATOGE AND REINSTALL WITHOUT SOMEONE NOTICING????

Nope, I don't think so, in answer to your last question.

But, I thot you'd asked just that, so I was just following your lead.

I tried using a plastic straw, started it, and it kicked out a whole bunch of car cleaner, and the straw. It seems to be in the same spot. I thot I only had to remove the one spark plug. Is it all of them?

I can't get a screwdriver down into the hole, as there is a vacuum tube or power steering fluid tube right in back of it.

I'll try turning the crankshaft, but when I did that before, there is only or less than an inch between the sidewall and the pulley, so I'll see how far it goes. Coudl I just turn that until it gets there? he straw goes up?

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

.....

Right now, I am taking the vent thing (??) off in the engine, need a [b]7/16ths [/B](12mm ??)box end wrench. I was able to obtain an air compressor, and did not havethe timing marks on the engine to automatically ind TDC on the compression stroke. I guess there is the exhaust and comp.

Let me try to make a point here: The markings on the crank-pully, if you can find them .... they are hard to see ... mine were the barest of scratchings. Anyway, this TDC marking is only for the #1 cylinder ... and it is TDC for both compression and exhaust stroke ... on cyl #1.

What I'll do is, remove this, then the full valve cover, and then try cranking using the starter key, and put a screwdriver in the spark plug hole.

NO, NO, NO .... we said to remove all spark plugs .... ALLLLL of them! Turn the crank by hand ... using a wrench. NO STARTER. A screw driver!!!! Did we not suggest a plastic rod?. Not a screwdriver!!! Not a soda straw. Go to some garden shop, maybe Home Depot, maybe Walmart .... and buy one off those reflectors that sit on a long plastic rod ... the gizmo that folks use to stick in the ground on either side of their driveway ... so it is easier to find in the dark or under the snow. This plastic rod is about 3/16" in diameter, 36" long perhaps....with the reflector on the end.....

Please, follow the plan .....

[tomj76]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

Right now, I am taking the vent thing off in the engine, need a 7/16ths box end wrench. I was able to obtain an air compressor, and did not havethe timing marks on the engine to automatically ind TDC on the compression stroke. I guess there is the exhaust and comp.

All bolts on the Windstar engine are metric sizes. You may round the heads of any bolts that you remove with english size tools. There are a couple of exceptions where some pipe fittings seem to be english sizes.

Also, the air compressor method can be made more reliable if you remove (or at least loosen) both rocker arms so that neither can be opened by the push rod. As mentioned, the biggest risk with the air compression approach is that the air pressure will push the piston down into the cylinder, rotating the camshaft to a point that will open the other valve. You still want to keep the piston at TDC to avoid the possibility that the valve can fall into the cylinder.

On the other hand, the biggest advantage is that the valve is not against anything but compressed air and the valve seat. Sometimes the keepers don't come off very easily because the retainer is stuck. I've used a method involving a socket, a magnet (to catch the keepers) and a sharp blow from a hammer to knock the retainer free from the keepers. I wouldn't try that approach if the valve is only supported by the top of the piston, and I'd be a little leery about doing it if the valve is held in place by compressed rope. The fact that 12Ounce suggests it gives it a lot more credibility, but I don't know if he'd recommend using a hammer to free a stuck retainer.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tomj76

I've borrowed a valve spring compressor from Autozone.

The air compression equipment is, as mentioned, used to keep the valve from falling into the cylinder. It is right to check that the valve moves freely. It could have gone in far enough that the piston bent the valve stem. However, there is another more subtle concern. If the valve stem isn't bent, but the valve was in far enough to damage the surface on the valve that sits on the valve seat, then your valve should be replaced. This requires removal of the head plus proper refacing and seating of the new valve.

If the valve moves freely in the valve guide (considering the friction due to the valve stem seal), you can give it a try as it is.

BTW, the brown coating is oil varnish, which is easily removed using carb. cleaner.

It moved freely, yes, so that means it is alright? Great!

[Searles Lewis]

I cannot get the crankshaft to turn at all using a socket and extension on its center nut. Am I supposed to loosen the idler pulley first?

[12Ounce]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

I cannot get the crankshaft to turn at all using a socket and extension and ratchet on its center nut. Am I supposed to loosen the idler pulley first?

With all spark plugs removed??? If so, this engine has some interesting issues!

With all the plugs removed, I can easily rotate a 3.8 ... along with all the accessories driven by the belt. And I will never see seventy ... again!

[wiswind]

Before you remove all the spark plugs....you might label the wires so that you get them back in the right plugs when you put them back.

DO NOT use a screw driver or other metal object down the spark plug hole......
Use something like a straw.....something that will bend should it get crooked or otherwise bind in there.
A screw driver could punch a hole in a piston.......a straw will simply bend.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

With all spark plugs removed??? If so, this engine has some interesting issues!

With all the plugs removed, I can easily rotate a 3.8 ... along with all the accessories driven by the belt. And I will never see seventy ... again!

I had my step son, helpful lad, rotate it, using a 4 and 10 inch extension. I have the notch or timing bolt that sticks out over the crankshaft, over the gap in toothing on it. Right after it, there are a bunch of hash marks, I think they say two and three. Which of those hash marks is the one I set it too? I have the a/c set up.

I'm not worried about getting the retaining pieces, as I have a computer magnet, the ones you use for grabbing stuff that falls, and the spring is plain broken, so one the crank is at definite tdc, I'll clip into the spark plug attachment with the a/c, turn it on, wiat a minute or so, then use the comp tool to depress the hat, take out the retainers, pull of the spring, then reloadthe newer one with the hat on it, compress it, put it over the valve stem thingy, compress more until the hat is loose, puti nthe retainers, and then release the tool slowly.

Which mark is the one I set the crankshaft to? The straw is already hitting the top of the piston, but I do not want a mistake! The numbers are well rusted. Use carb cleaner?

[tempfixit]

With the straw touching the top of piston, you should be able to feel the piston move upward to TDC. IF you keeping turning by hand and the piston begins to go down, stop and turn crankshaft CCW until piston is again at TDC and then look at the rocker arms, they should be pointing down. ( If it makes you feel more secure remove the other rocker arm once you are sure to be on TDC . THis way both valves wil be closed and no air should be able to leak out.) WIth all the spark plugs removed if the piston is not on TDC the air pressure can push the piston down and possibly open the other valve. You will know if this happens.

Regarding the marks on the harmonic balancer I cannot answer.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

With the straw touching the top of piston, you should be able to feel the piston move upward to TDC. IF you keeping turning by hand and the piston begins to go down, stop and turn crankshaft CCW until piston is again at TDC and then look at the rocker arms, they should be pointing down. ( If it makes you feel more secure remove the other rocker arm once you are sure to be on TDC . THis way both valves wil be closed and no air should be able to leak out.) WIth all the spark plugs removed if the piston is not on TDC the air pressure can push the piston down and possibly open the other valve. You will know if this happens.

Regarding the marks on the harmonic balancer I cannot answer.

cool, thanks. We just did it. I realized it was having problems when it got to TDC. Then this last time it refused to go farther. I used the straw, ran it thru a few times, figured it out. I could have just done it right off, it started at TDC.

It was pretty easy. The valve moved up and down easily. I dropped one piece of the retainers, and he found it, it went in easily. I had to force the spring compressor down to the very bottom to get it on. It stands higher than the older ones, a little bit.

It retained the pressure, and the valve being up, so the seals are alright. I taped it, and then compressed and replace the spring. Thanks so very much!

I am still a little leery, given it seemed sticky when it got to TDC. But tomorow I'll find out. I will start it or crank it, plugs out, tonite to get rid of the carb cleaner, then put the wheel back on. Then, all spark plugs, replace the valve cover, then the lower plenum with the older isolator bolts, then the upper, and replace all the vacuum hoses and vent stuff. Hopefully all the bolts will go in.

I'll let you know what happens, thanks to you all!

I used the straw, it dropped into a void ,then you could feel the piston come back up. Few times thru, it was easy to tell.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

cool, thanks. We just did it. I realized it was having problems when it got to TDC. Then this last time it refused to go farther. I used the straw, ran it thru a few times, figured it out. I could have just done it right off, it started at TDC.

It was pretty easy. The valve moved up and down easily. I dropped one piece of the retainers, and he found it, it went in easily. I had to force the spring compressor down to the very bottom to get it on. It stands higher than the older ones, a little bit.

It retained the pressure, and the valve being up, so the seals are alright. I taped it, and then compressed and replace the spring. Thanks so very much!

I am still a little leery, given it seemed sticky when it got to TDC. But tomorow I'll find out. I will start it or crank it, plugs out, tonite to get rid of the carb cleaner, then put the wheel back on. Then, all spark plugs, replace the valve cover, then the lower plenum with the older isolator bolts, then the upper, and replace all the vacuum hoses and vent stuff. Hopefully all the bolts will go in.

I'll let you know what happens, thanks to you all!

I used the straw, it dropped into a void ,then you could feel the piston come back up. Few times thru, it was easy to tell.

Great, Congratulations, Good job.

[Searles Lewis]

Alright. I re-attached the rocker arm. What number do I torque it to? In the book it says to torque to specifications. But i nthe front, it gives one spec as 60-120, for step 1, and 23-30 for step two. I do not see any delineation as to the current step I am on. I am torquing down after attaching the spring successfully, and re-cranking to car to get it to kick out the excess carb cleaner in al l6 cylinders.

Any clue? It's at 25 right now.