Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

Well, I got that &*^$%# valve cover off, and one of the valve tops (rocker arms) on #1 is completely off! So, you guys were totally right. It also means angry Ed, the mechanic, was totally wrong.

So, what do I do now?

[12Ounce]

Congrats! You've made a great discovery! Not one that I was expecting, but one of great importance just the same. "Wrench turning" and investigating .... beats talking and guessing every time.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Congrats! You've made a great discovery! Not one that I was expecting, but one of great importance just the same. "Wrench turning" and investigating .... beats talking and guessing every time.

Yes, thank you! But thanks to everyone who kept bugging me about it. If I'd done it first, it would now be fixed.

Here's the video for it.

http://youtu.be/Qny1DoB8mIA

The valve rocker is disconnected. No damage to anything, just off. What do I do to fix it?

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

Yes, thank you! But thanks to everyone who kept bugging me about it. If I'd done it first, it would now be fixed.

Here's the video for it.

http://youtu.be/Qny1DoB8mIA

The valve rocker is disconnected. No damage to anything, just off. What do I do to fix it?

Congrat you found your noise, but now you need to diagnose to see what the reason is for the rocker arm being loose.

IS the push rod bent???

Have you removed the push rod and inspected the end that connects to the lifter also for any flat spots,etc.???

How much travel does the push rod move when you crank the engine. This needs to be inspected to make sure the lifter is not collasped. (Compare it to 1 of the same on a different clyinder. ( I believe it is the exhaust valve , correct??) This will also show if the camshaft lobe is possibly worn.

Inspect the rocker arm for any excessive wear where the push rod meets the rocker arm and the bushing in the rocker arm that goes over the bolt, also make sure the rocker arm hole is not worn also.

In my opinion, waiting until you have found the source of the loose rocker arm I would not reinstall anything just in case you need to go further to fix the problem.

[tempfixit]

Rocker arm adjustment procedure from autozone.com repair manual.

Rocker Arms

• REMOVAL & INSTALLATION

Print

Removal & Installation

1. Remove the valve cover.
2. Remove the rocker arm retaining bolt.
   NOTE
   Rocker the arms should be installed in their original location during assembly.
   
   
   
3. Remove the rocker arms. If more than 1 rocker arm is to be removed, identify each rocker arm location.

To install:

1. <LI sizcache="11" sizset="8">Lubricate the pushrods and rocker arms with engine assembly lubricant. Lubricate the retaining bolts with engine oil.
   NOTE
   Prior to final tightening, the rocker arm seats must be fully seated into the cylinder head. The pushrods must be fully seated in the rocker arm and valve tappet sockets.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Fig. When the lifter is fully collapsed and on the base circle of the cam, check for proper clearance between the tip of the valve and the rocker arm-3.8L engine
   
   
2. Install the rocker arms into position with the pushrods and snug the retaining bolt.
3. Rotate the crankshaft until the lifter for the rocker arm being installed, is on the base circle (heel) of the cam lobe.
4. Tighten the rocker arm retaining bolt to:
   
   
   3.0L: 60-132 inch lbs. (7-15 Nm)
   
   3.8L: 44 inch lbs. (5 Nm)
   
   
   
5. Finally, tighten the bolt with the camshaft in any position to 20-28 ft. lbs. (26-38 Nm).
6. Install the valve cover.

Link to page:

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/rep...96b43f8036e642

[wiswind]

Too bad it is on the back side.......and not in the front.
From your post......it looks like you understand what I was talking about it being a lot of work bent over.
The good news is that you know what the cause of the noise is.
Not as easy of a problem to solve as I would have liked, but it have been much worse.
I will pray for the repair to be a smooth go for you.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by wiswind

Too bad it is on the back side.......and not in the front.
From your post......it looks like you understand what I was talking about it being a lot of work bent over.
The good news is that you know what the cause of the noise is.
Not as easy of a problem to solve as I would have liked, but it have been much worse.
I will pray for the repair to be a smooth go for you.

Thanks! To the both of you!

I have the Haynes manual, and already did print off the above post as my library has access to the Chilton's manual online.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ght=rocker+arm

"If I just want to replace a push-rod I shouldn't have to do anything special right?

I'd just take off the rocker arm, slide the old one out and the new one in, correct?"

My friend said it would not need to be adjusted, but if it did, follow the Haynes manual.

So, do I just twirl the rocker arms, pull out the pushrod, disconnect the fulcrum bolt, inspect the spring and pieces, and roll the pushrod on something flat, and if good, put it all back together, and then just torque it down per here

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ght=rocker+arm

?

Or do I do the TDC thing? He said to put the key in, turn it to start, on and off, and watch the first head go down on number 1, then torque down the exhaust rocker. Is that right? Or did I misremember it?

Wow, two months. I wish I'd go back in time, could do that, I'd do the back valve cover along with the front. Thanks for pushing it back to me each time!

[tempfixit]

It has been a long time since I have adjusted valves so someone correct me if I am wrong please.

The way I understand the manual procedure is to set no1 at TDC so both valves are closed.Then torque to 44 INCH POUNDS, check the clearence (0.09-0.19 inch). Then you can rotate the crankshaft ( rockerarms can be in any pposition) and torque to 22 - 29 FOOT POUNDS.

Also look thru the hole in the push rod while looking at a light to make sure the oil passage way on the rod is not plugged. Also make sure if the old push rod is used install in same position, meaning before removing mark to show which is top (rocker arm end) so push rod seats to rocker arm and lifter the same as before. (IF the push rod is replaced I would also replace the rocker arm.)

Hopefully some one like 12Ounce that has overhauled these engines or done a head repair job will jump in with some experienced advice.

[tomj76]

No adjustment is necessary on the 3.8L pushrods because of the hydraulic lifters.

To check for a straight rod, roll it on a flat surface. A bent rod will wobble as it rolls, and roll at an uneven speed. I'd check the length as well, as they can wear. The rocker to rod clearance check is one way of doing that, but it requires that the lifter be "blead down" completely. As mentioned, check that the tube is clear. It can be cleaned with a carb. cleaner solvent.

Make sure you have all the rocker parts. I think there is the rocker, the saddle, a washer, plus the nut.

As mentioned, turn the crank with a wrench in the same direct it turns when running (I believe that's CW when looking straight into the front of the crankshaft, from the passenger side) to a point where the rod is retracted before tightening down the rocker. I've done it without turning the crank, but it's not recommended.

There is a torque requirement for the rocker bolts. It's not super critical (like a gasket), but if you have access to a wrench use it. A word about torque wrenches... they can be wrong, so use some common sense to make sure it's in the right ball park. I once used a torque wrench I borrowed from AutoZone, only to find that is was off by 2x. I like to think about how many pounds it should feel like I'm lifting for a given a torque. If I'm using an 12" (1 ft) bar (with my hand at the end), then 40 ft-lbs = 40 lbs force, which is equal to the weight of 5 gallons of water.

I believe a new push rod is a few dollars.

[12Ounce]

Looking at your video .... and assuming no disassembly work has been done on the fulcrum hold down bolt, no loosening, ....since the valve cover was removed .... then that hold down bolt is far too loose, allowing the rocker to be loose and, possibly, the push-rod escape.

It makes me guess that some repair work has been done on this engine in its past. ?? And that this bolt was left loose by mistake. I wonder if others may be loose? Ignoring the crankshaft position business .... I would check all of them using the upper end of the recommended torque range. There is a bit of danger here ... If a bolt has been loose and subjected to flexing ... it may just pop in-two! But what can one do? If this is so, then failure is imminent anyway.

The push-rod may be bent. An inspection on a flat surface as recommended is good. Check the ends for excessive damage. If you have access to a new push-rod, that is the smart way to go.

[12Ounce]

Your experience is reminding me on my neighbor's experience: Nice old gentleman who loved his old Bronco. He carried his Bronco down to the local Mom and Pop mechanic's shop (in business for years) to have a leaky valve cover gasket replaced. Mom and Pop give this simple task to some new kids they have employed. Nice boys! Smart!

Well, the smart kids did the job. Returned Bronco to neighbor. Took neighbors money. Neighbor notice the engine was a little nosey .... but the leak was fixed! ....or, at least, the leak was different! The engine gets more and more noisey .... after a few weeks, the Bronco finally is barely moving. Neighbor parks Bronco in back yard to die.

Enter me .... perhaps a year later. Curious, I asked if he wanted me to try to get the Bronco going again. Lifting the valve cover I found the kids had left a wrench behind! It apparently had lodged down inside a push-rod tube. Rockers upset! Rods propelled thru oil baffle in oil pan! However, it was an easy fix ... the Bronco still runs today, perhaps 5 years now.

And it doesn't leak!

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tomj76

No adjustment is necessary on the 3.8L pushrods because of the hydraulic lifters.

To check for a straight rod, roll it on a flat surface. A bent rod will wobble as it rolls, and roll at an uneven speed.

I checked the push-rod, it is fine. It rolled perfectly. The bottom part is stained brown, but the stain came off a little.

The broken part is the valve spring, which I think breaks often. It's in 3 pieces, is loose, and moves around.

I believe that means I need to do a little more than I had expected. The directions stated I need some sort of air pump, a valve spring compression tool, and a new spring.

How do I check to make sure it is just the spring, and not whatever it is connected to in the engine causing the problem? The valve compression test for that cylinder was 120 psi, that would seem to be fine. Is there anything else?

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Your experience is reminding me on my neighbor's experience: Nice old gentleman who loved his old Bronco. He carried his Bronco down to the local Mom and Pop mechanic's shop (in business for years) to have a leaky valve cover gasket replaced. Mom and Pop give this simple task to some new kids they have employed. Nice boys! Smart!

Well, the smart kids did the job. Returned Bronco to neighbor. Took neighbors money. Neighbor notice the engine was a little nosey .... but the leak was fixed! ....or, at least, the leak was different! The engine gets more and more noisey .... after a few weeks, the Bronco finally is barely moving. Neighbor parks Bronco in back yard to die.

Enter me .... perhaps a year later. Curious, I asked if he wanted me to try to get the Bronco going again. Lifting the valve cover I found the kids had left a wrench behind! It apparently had lodged down inside a push-rod tube. Rockers upset! Rods propelled thru oil baffle in oil pan! However, it was an easy fix ... the Bronco still runs today, perhaps 5 years now.

And it doesn't leak!

Wow, you are a good neighbor. someone like me, too. I am a step-parent. The kids I helped get my Honey custody of, had a raging ,alcoholic, but mechanically gifted Dad. I had to do all sorts of things, as they had been beaten, and their Dad has Narcissistic PD, and they had no feelings for anyone else. Even a lot of their interactions with each other centered on who was greater than the other, who could take something, etc. I got them to do otherwise, and they have thanked me for it. You are a good person, and I hope if you had children they carry that with them.

This group has been very helpful for all of what I have had to do. Thank you all, mentioned or not!

[tempfixit]

Can you push the valve down with the broken spring still on.That is what you need to find out, if the valve moves freely the valve stem is straight. You will want to push on the top of the valve stem it self so you do not accidentally release the valve stem keepers from the spring holder. If the keepers were to come out the valve would fall into the clyinder and head will need to be removed to retrieve the valve.

Yes you willl need a air compressor and compression tester hose with the schreader valve removed to hold the valve in place to remove old spring and install new spring. The piston will need to be on TDC so both valve are closed and the air does not escape, you will know if that happens.

You may want to check with autozone, they may a valve spring removal tool in their loan a tool program. I will try to find a pic of tool so you know what it looks like.

[tomj76]

I've borrowed a valve spring compressor from Autozone.

The air compression equipment is, as mentioned, used to keep the valve from falling into the cylinder. It is right to check that the valve moves freely. It could have gone in far enough that the piston bent the valve stem. However, there is another more subtle concern. If the valve stem isn't bent, but the valve was in far enough to damage the surface on the valve that sits on the valve seat, then your valve should be replaced. This requires removal of the head plus proper refacing and seating of the new valve.

If the valve moves freely in the valve guide (considering the friction due to the valve stem seal), you can give it a try as it is.

BTW, the brown coating is oil varnish, which is easily removed using carb. cleaner.