Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

[tempfixit]

Here ia a video of the process once the piston is at TDC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeosE7tondA

[12Ounce]

Even tho I have an air compressor, I would never use it for this task. Nothing wrong with the air compressor procedure ... I just hear a different drummer (or is it drunkard?).

If you remove all plugs, the engine is fairly easy to crank-over by hand. Crank the engine over until the all push-rods are down (valves are closed) for the cyl of interest. Use a long slender plastic rod to feel the top of the piston .... making sure it is close to TDC. The valves are now captured .... will not fall into the combustion chamber. Work away on valve seals and springs ... for only this one cylinder!!

I have heard of folks, not having a spring compression tool, of following a similar method... but adding following; ....insert some soft cord into the spark plug hole before the piston is fully up. Stuff it in, but don't loose the end of the cord!! Crank the piston on up, until the cord smashes up against the valve-heads ... holding them fully closed while you work.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

Even tho I have an air compressor, I would never use it for this task. Nothing wrong with the air compressor procedure ... I just hear a different drummer (or is it drunkard?).

If you remove all plugs, the engine is fairly easy to crank-over by hand. Crank the engine over until the all push-rods are down (valves are closed) for the cyl of interest. Use a long slender plastic rod to feel the top of the piston .... making sure it is close to TDC. The valves are now captured .... will not fall into the combustion chamber. Work away on valve seals and springs ... for only this one cylinder!!

I have heard of folks, not having a spring compression tool, of following a similar method... but adding following; ....insert some soft cord into the spark plug hole before the piston is fully up. Stuff it in, but don't loose the end of the cord!! Crank the piston on up, until the cord smashes up against the valve-heads ... holding them fully closed while you work.

I have also heard of this procedure but had forgotten about it, eliminates worrying about air compressor and valve dropping in clyinder.

Searles you may want to get a couple of keepers when you get the spring if you can get 2 of them seperately, as a back up. Just in case you drop one and can't find. Just a thought.

I haven't looked closely but I am thinking it would not be to hard to make a spring compressor out of a small 1/8th or 1/4" steel plate with a couple holes drilled in it for the rocker arm bolt and opening for removing keepers.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

I have also heard of this procedure but had forgotten about it, eliminates worrying about air compressor and valve dropping in clyinder.

Searles you may want to get a couple of keepers when you get the spring if you can get 2 of them seperately, as a back up. Just in case you drop one and can't find. Just a thought.

I haven't looked closely but I am thinking it would not be to hard to make a spring compressor out of a small 1/8th or 1/4" steel plate with a couple holes drilled in it for the rocker arm bolt and opening for removing keepers.

autozone rents them, I already have it. I also got an electric tire inflator pump, but it has a schrader valve. I would need a convertor, anyone know where to get one? No one seems to rent air compressors anymore.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

autozone rents them, I already have it. I also got an electric tire inflator pump, but it has a schrader valve. I would need a convertor, anyone know where to get one? No one seems to rent air compressors anymore.

Searles consider doing the method 12Ounce suggests with the soft rope in the clyinder to hold the valves up. Eliminates the air compressor need and rope should be easy to access.

[wiswind]

I have not done this repair, but I STRONGLY suggest that you set the cylinder in question to TDC as 12ounce has suggested.
If this removes the possibility of a valve dropping down so far that you cannot grasp the stem and pull it back up.......then it is a no-brainer.
This way, if Murphy decides to visit (If it can go wrong.....) you won't have this to worry about.

YES!, you are correct! There have been posts about valve springs breaking in the 3.8L windstar.
Not super common, but it does happen.

If this is a vehicle that you plan to hang onto, I would recommend a subscription to AlldataDIY.
This will give you access to a vehicle specific manual.....it is the Factory Service Manual.
This has much better information than the Hayes, which seems to be more inclusive of a variety of vehicles....whereas the Alldata is much the same as what you get when you order the Genuine FORD manual.....only it is online and is constantly updated with Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) as they come out.
So, if FORD issues a TSB for your 2000 (or any other year) Windstar, it will show up on the AlldataDIY site for your vehicle.

That, along with the good folks here, who have HANDS ON experience with your vintage (1999-2003) Windstar......with this specific repair......you have a lot going for you.

Again, for your sake, try to take your time....and take breaks as this repair on the back side of the motor is placing you in awkward working positions.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by wiswind

I have not done this repair, but I STRONGLY suggest that you set the cylinder in question to TDC as 12ounce has suggested.
If this removes the possibility of a valve dropping down so far that you cannot grasp the stem and pull it back up.......then it is a no-brainer.
This way, if Murphy decides to visit (If it can go wrong.....) you won't have this to worry about.

YES!, you are correct! There have been posts about valve springs breaking in the 3.8L windstar.
Not super common, but it does happen.

If this is a vehicle that you plan to hang onto, I would recommend a subscription to AlldataDIY.
This will give you access to a vehicle specific manual.....it is the Factory Service Manual.
This has much better information than the Hayes, which seems to be more inclusive of a variety of vehicles....whereas the Alldata is much the same as what you get when you order the Genuine FORD manual.....only it is online and is constantly updated with Technical Service Bulletins (TSBs) as they come out.
So, if FORD issues a TSB for your 2000 (or any other year) Windstar, it will show up on the AlldataDIY site for your vehicle.

That, along with the good folks here, who have HANDS ON experience with your vintage (1999-2003) Windstar......with this specific repair......you have a lot going for you.

Again, for your sake, try to take your time....and take breaks as this repair on the back side of the motor is placing you in awkward working positions.

The risk here is too great. I'd rather wait until Monday, for an air compressor, and to make sure the parts actually come in, to do it. I do not trust myself, under stress, and dealing with a semi-obnoxious step-kid, to get it TDC, without fail. Using an air compressor means no matter where it is, at least it will not drop into the engine, forcing a repair I simply cannot hope to do at all.

We found out, my mother and the older brother have been talking to him, and he gets resentful every time we ask him to do anything. This disappears once I get him part of the way thru the issue each time, but the lack of support makes it rough at first, and this repair seems to be too damn risky w/o the compressor.

In the last 24 hours, apparently everyone of the neighbors and even the family has found out we are waiting on parts, and every one has jumped on my back. So, I will wait. I know you guys trust this stuff, but I do not, and trying to figure out how much rope and TDC too seems like a nightmare, and is beyond my being able to estimate what will happen.

This means I will miss Easter Service at my church, but we have already called people about rides and the calls were not returned, so I have decided it means I'll stay at home, read the Bible, and maybe watch TV, and wait for Monday. I cannot obtain a schrader valve to comp converter, and I know they exist, but no one will even answer my question as to where, so I am giving up for right now.

Tomorrow, hopefully the parts will come in, but I'm not holding my breath. Once the valve is stabilized by air pressure, the repair looks like a snap. My Father was a machinist who worked on making nuclear weapons. I do not have that skill, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I can brag FWIW after it's done I did a valve repair, to an extent.

Thanks. If you guys know of any other way, I'd like to hear it. But today, faced with a 35$ per day (70$ total) for an air comp, but no guarantee I'll have parts, or the right ones, I'm sitting out until Monday, when I can do a few other things to get one if I have the actual parts in my hand.

Happy Easter to everyone here!

[12Ounce]

You seem to think using the air compressor is somehow the safer method .... I assure you: IT IS NOT!!

If you do not have the Piston, in question, not only at TDC, but also "on the compression cycle" ... i.e, both valves closed your valves can fall down into the chamber ... while the air compressor is pumping away!

(How difficult can it be to slide a plastic rod into the spark plug hole and "feel" the piston rise up, hesitate, and then begin dropping down ... as the piston passes thru TDC?

The method I described is hard to beat for safety .... but anyone can fail if he must. I have insisted on failing many times!

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

The risk here is too great. I'd rather wait until Monday, for an air compressor, and to make sure the parts actually come in, to do it. I do not trust myself, under stress, and dealing with a semi-obnoxious step-kid, to get it TDC, without fail. Using an air compressor means no matter where it is, at least it will not drop into the engine, forcing a repair I simply cannot hope to do at all.

We found out, my mother and the older brother have been talking to him, and he gets resentful every time we ask him to do anything. This disappears once I get him part of the way thru the issue each time, but the lack of support makes it rough at first, and this repair seems to be too damn risky w/o the compressor.

In the last 24 hours, apparently everyone of the neighbors and even the family has found out we are waiting on parts, and every one has jumped on my back. So, I will wait. I know you guys trust this stuff, but I do not, and trying to figure out how much rope and TDC too seems like a nightmare, and is beyond my being able to estimate what will happen.

This means I will miss Easter Service at my church, but we have already called people about rides and the calls were not returned, so I have decided it means I'll stay at home, read the Bible, and maybe watch TV, and wait for Monday. I cannot obtain a schrader valve to comp converter, and I know they exist, but no one will even answer my question as to where, so I am giving up for right now.

Tomorrow, hopefully the parts will come in, but I'm not holding my breath. Once the valve is stabilized by air pressure, the repair looks like a snap. My Father was a machinist who worked on making nuclear weapons. I do not have that skill, but thanks for the vote of confidence. I can brag FWIW after it's done I did a valve repair, to an extent.

Thanks. If you guys know of any other way, I'd like to hear it. But today, faced with a 35$ per day (70$ total) for an air comp, but no guarantee I'll have parts, or the right ones, I'm sitting out until Monday, when I can do a few other things to get one if I have the actual parts in my hand.

Happy Easter to everyone here!

Searles it makes perfect sense to be nervous about the repair. Waiting for the parts on a Saturday also makes sense so you do not have the extra expense of air compressor and no parts. Like wiswind recommends, take your time, hurrying only gets you in trouble.

Reread 12Ounce's post #122. This is very good sound advice.

You are understanding that using a air compressor will keep the valve from falling if the piston is not on TDC. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. THE PISTON HAS TO BE AT TDC IN ORDER FOR THE VALVE TO BE CLOSED. (push rods down).nAlso if the valves are not closed the air from the compressor will escape and THE VALVE WILL DROP INTO CLYINDER WHEN YOU REMOVE THE KEEPERS ON THE VALVE STEM. 12Ounce is also saying with the piston at TDC the valve CAN NOT DROP INTO THE CLYINDER AND BE UNRETRIEVABLE. The piston will keep the valve in place. He is also saying that if you add the rope before the piston is to TDC, once you have the rope into clyinder turn the piston to top dead center, once you get close to tdc with the rope on top of the piston it will push against the valve and clyinder head stopping the movement of the crankshaft and piston so do not use excessive force on the crankshaft when rotating it.

Like also stated use a longer screwdriver and place it thru the spark plug hole so you can touch the top of piston. As the piston moves upward you will feel it and when it gets to tdc and starts to go back down stop and back it up (ccw) a little so you can insert the rope, then turn again (CW) to reach TDC. Then you should be able to remove the keepers, valve spring, and seal with out worrys.

If you have any questions do not hesitate to ask. We are here to help get your vehicle operational trust worthy again.

EDIT: Here is a video of the rope procedure, it is on a different engine but same principle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...5nZhDdAMs&NR=1

Video with air, different engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob_4-...feature=fvwrel

[wiswind]

I would do my BEST to get it to TDC for the cylinder that you are going to do the work with the valve(s).
THEN.....go ahead and use the air compressor, and follow the instructions for the job.
It may sound like you are double doing the prevention of the drop the valve.......but if I had a 3rd way to add.......I would add it also.
In other words......if the air compressor method fails......you have the piston up so that the valve will not fall all the way down into the cylinder.

That, and take your time.......when I hurry, I almost always mess something up.

The advice you are getting is from folks who want to see this work out well for you!!!!

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

You seem to think using the air compressor is somehow the safer method .... I assure you: IT IS NOT!!

If you do not have the Piston, in question, not only at TDC, but also "on the compression cycle" ... i.e, both valves closed your valves can fall down into the chamber ... while the air compressor is pumping away!

(How difficult can it be to slide a plastic rod into the spark plug hole and "feel" the piston rise up, hesitate, and then begin dropping down ... as the piston passes thru TDC?

The method I described is hard to beat for safety .... but anyone can fail if he must. I have insisted on failing many times!

I was not disputing the TDC. I re-read, that seems to be the problem. I am going to use an air compressor also for insruance, as I am under the impression hat I make mistakes, even if I think I have the valve at TDC, and do not want to do otherwise and the air comp will help.

Maybe despite reading this and watching it on youtube, I have it wrong. But, every one of the youtube people also had the air comp and go it to TC ,too.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by wiswind

I would do my BEST to get it to TDC for the cylinder that you are going to do the work with the valve(s).
THEN.....go ahead and use the air compressor, and follow the instructions for the job.
It may sound like you are double doing the prevention of the drop the valve.......but if I had a 3rd way to add.......I would add it also.
In other words......if the air compressor method fails......you have the piston up so that the valve will not fall all the way down into the cylinder.

That, and take your time.......when I hurry, I almost always mess something up.

The advice you are getting is from folks who want to see this work out well for you!!!!

Okay, great! I was planning on doing both. I am under the impression I can get it to TDC. I do not have an air compressor, and puttng down the nylon rope into the cylinder thru the spark plug hole sounds like a recipe for getting threads stuck down there, too.

Is that what it is right? Put the rope down the spark plug hole?

[Searles Lewis]

As another thing-the Angry Ed mechanic stated the problem was the leckemby problem, with the isolator bolts. All 8 are green, and have no problems I can see at all, not even a crack.

Can I just put them back in, and return the reisniz bolts to autozone? They are not damaged by removal in some secret way I cannot tell, are they? Just crank to 20 lbs torque?

They gave me the wrong gaskets too, these are metal, and do not fit into the bottom of the plenum. I really was raped on this entire thing. I can't help thinking at least someone knew what had happened, and did not tell me. It is so obvious now. I don't mean here, either, I mean like the mechanic at Glover's and the other people I rec'd advice from.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

As another thing-the Angry Ed mechanic stated the problem was the leckemby problem, with the isolator bolts. All 8 are green, and have no problems I can see at all, not even a crack.

Can I just put them back in, and return the reisniz bolts to autozone? They are not damaged by removal in some secret way I cannot tell, are they? Just crank to 20 lbs torque?

They gave me the wrong gaskets too, these are metal, and do not fit into the bottom of the plenum. I really was raped on this entire thing. I can't help thinking at least someone knew what had happened, and did not tell me. It is so obvious now. I don't mean here, either, I mean like the mechanic at Glover's and the other people I rec'd advice from.

Yes the rope goes thru the spark plug hole. I would not worry about rope threads being a problem. A tip for TDC. (When finding TDC you will need to be on compression stroke, a way to tell if you are on compression stroke is by placing your finger over spark plug hole, when the piston is coming up on compression stroke you will feel air against your finger.. Also you should hear a wosh sound.)

Regarding the isolator bolts, My opinion is since you have it all apart why not install the new bolts then you know it should be good again. Hopefully someone that has done this will respond. Just make sure you are torqueing to correct spec INCH POUNDS OR FOOT POUNDS.

What is the part number for the gaskets that you are referring to. Did you get the complete intake gasket set including the lower intake gasket or just the isolator bolts and plenium set????

[wiswind]

Ditto on the verification of inch / pounds vs ft/pounds.
I recommend a "beam" style torque wrench for those inch/pound values.
I had a "clicker" style that did not "click" properly.....and have read that this can be a problem for the lower torque values.
The difference between these Inch vs foot and type wrenches can be the difference between a proper torqued bolt and a broken bolt.

A side note, don't decide to replace the lower intake (alluminum) manifold gaskets just because you have them......you only want to remove the lower intake manifold if you have a very good reason to.....because it adds a lot more work to the job.
I had mine off because of the lower intake manifold gaskets leaking......

Before mounting the upper intake (black nylon/plastic) manifold, wipe the gasket seating surfaces clean of dirt so that you get a good seal.
Don't add anything to the gaskets....they are to be installed without any extra sealant.

Don't worry about stray threads from the rope being left inside the cylinder....it is hard grit/sand that we want to keep out as that will cause damage.....also any significant amount of fluid as that can cause "hydrolocking"......which is due to the fact that fluid does not compress like air.....so when the piston comes up when there is much fluid in the cylinder.....the compression value (pressure) inside the cylinder will be MUCH higher than you want......even enough to cause something to break.
This is why we have cautioned you to avoid getting fluid/dirt down into the intake......hard grit to score the cylinder walls or fluid to break a connecting rod, etc.