david-b's 95 Eagle Talon ESi-T Motor Build

That's right folks... I got 2 project threads! :iceslolan

So I found a block pretty local for $150 on Craigs List and decided to pick it up. It came from some Eclipse that got a built block. This block went through a stock rebuild and was bored to .020" already. In Chicago with the snow and moisture in the air, the cylinders got some surface rust, but very little. Was running when pulled. For now, the motor is sitting in my shed sprayed and wrapped, waiting for machine shop one day when I get the pistons/rods.

So my plan for this bad-boy...
-8.6:1 forged pistons .040" over
-forged rods
-cometic .040" metal gasket
-machine shop work (cleaning, boring, crank balance... all the goods)
-ARP headbolts and probably studs
-slap on my already built head (making sure it's all good)
-slap on already ported intake manifold
-new clutch/lightweight flywheel
-3" exhaust
-all new timing components (oil/water pump, tensioners...)

Not sure on the turbo, fuel supply and engine management yet. I'm going to run the T3/4 at ~15psi. I'm hoping PnP MS comes out soon, because I'll just pick that up right away. I'm going to try to hunt down a used MegaSquirt if PnP doesn't come out quick enough. I've got some 440cc FIs so I'm going to try to work those with the SAFC and see what I can do. But I'll probably need some way to control timing really quickly. I'm not blowing up this motor.

Turbo, once I either max out that little T3/4, I may go with a 20g, or just some other T4 that can bolt up to everything. May upgrade the manifold too, again, doing this step-by-step

With this project, will also be replacing 2.5" to 3" exhaust. Probably use a Megan Downpipe or something. I've killed my custom downpipe this winter since it sits low and been plowing the snow with it.

This pics.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/IMG_2758.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/IMG_2747.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/IMG_2759.jpg





:p:popcorn:

Looks good man. I do believe PnP MS is already out, I could be wrong though. If I where you I wouldn't use it anyways, I bet the price is about double what you could put a working unit together for. I had those injectors running good with just the SFMU so you should be able to dial them in with the SAFC on there also. Be sure to build the Det Cans I told you about. When I started tuning I didn't think I had any knock at 15psi and I was hell a wrong when I used those for the first time. I would keep the boost below 15psi untill you get MS controlling ignitino timing.

The good thing is that I have got my MS dialed in awesome now and the car starts and drives perfect. You could copy my timing maps and startup settings and just change the fuel map and you will be set.

P.S. I started building the adapter to use the stock manifold today. Its going to take a lot of welding but it should work and flow a TON better than a gay log manifold. Give me another 1.5 weeks and it should be on.

Looks good man. I do believe PnP MS is already out, I could be wrong though. If I where you I wouldn't use it anyways, I bet the price is about double what you could put a working unit together for. I had those injectors running good with just the SFMU so you should be able to dial them in with the SAFC on there also. Be sure to build the Det Cans I told you about. When I started tuning I didn't think I had any knock at 15psi and I was hell a wrong when I used those for the first time. I would keep the boost below 15psi untill you get MS controlling ignitino timing.

The good thing is that I have got my MS dialed in awesome now and the car starts and drives perfect. You could copy my timing maps and startup settings and just change the fuel map and you will be set.

PnP MS is in early Alpha testing phases. Probably won't be for a while until it comes out sadly. The dude I bought the block said he found someone selling MS for $250 and that's where he got his. I'm going to do so crazy searching and see what I can find. I think that would be the best route, compared to getting eManage and some MSD DS2 or whatever. We shall see though.

Yea MS is deffinately the best route. I found mine for $150, after buying the sensors and wiring harness I have less than $250 in my entire setup. Mine is the older version Ms1 v2.2 but I dont need anything else. This one does everything I want and more so its all good. You can get the kits pretty cheap if you wanted to assemble it yourself. That wouldn't be hard at all.

Just bought MegaSquirt v2.2 with all sensors for ~$350. I'm excited.

Lookie Lookie
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P1260267Medium.jpg

wow two 420a guys gonna be making big power :)

Glad to see its workin Dave

wow two 420a guys gonna be making big power :)


If you only knew what I have in my closet....:naughty:

If you only knew what I have in my closet....:naughty:

Besides your sexual preference... I know what you got

I need to step my game up, and lay the law down with the ol 4g64...

it can't be a bigger turbo cause 21psi isn't maxing out the 16g yet. you ahve fuel sytstem and drivetrain. So what would you possibly get to increase power. cams? Intake manifold? meth? n20? cryo?

He gone put nawz on it

Not spray... Anyways Im going to stop taking over Daves thread. You guys will find out this weekend.

Sweet! You guys are going to have to let me know how you like it.

Nothing new has happened. Had to put this on hold for a little bit since I just booked a trip to Florida and it cost a little more than expected. Plus I've been chilling easy on the side jobs so I have to get those working so they can start bringing in more income.

However, I'm thinking I may start wiring up MSnS soon since it's going to be in the 40s this weekend. I'll probably just run the wires up the ECU and cap them off. I still want to reflash MSnS to the stock 420a settings before I get it in. Been doing lots of reading on it and Jason is going to be giving me a hand a long the way with it since he's a pro. I figure get it installed now on a motor that is coming out anyways so if I F it up, it's no big loss. The SAFC will be coming out then and going for sale as soon as MSnS is powered up.

I found bed-plate bolts brand new for like $25 which is cheap as hell so I'm happy about that. Other than that, I won't be getting anything until I get my tax refund. Was going to buy the water/oil pump but figure should get the pistons/rods so I can take it the machine shop sooner than later and start getting all that together then.

Decided to use my parent garage for the swap.
Official start-up is beginning of June.

Thats awesome Dave. You should go ahead and wire MS up this weekend. What I would do it wire everything up but leave the injector and coil wires off so the stock ECU will still run the car but MS will be 'trying' to and you will be able to tell if everything is workin for the most part. I got 2 test and a paper due Thursday so I will try and get that map fixed up for you that night or something. Did you load the 11c1 code yet?

Thats awesome Dave. You should go ahead and wire MS up this weekend. What I would do it wire everything up but leave the injector and coil wires off so the stock ECU will still run the car but MS will be 'trying' to and you will be able to tell if everything is workin for the most part. I got 2 test and a paper due Thursday so I will try and get that map fixed up for you that night or something. Did you load the 11c1 code yet?

I haven't touched it since I tested it out when it came in. Will get to that on Wednesday or Thursday (depending on how work goes). I may call you if I can't figure it out. Stock ECU will control until I figure the goods out. But it really needs to be in the car in order for me to understand everything properly.

It's going in the glovebox so I want to mount is nicely and then going to make a loom with all the wires so it's super clean. Definitely not half-assing this thing since it's kind of a big deal.

Thats awesome man. I love build threads. Hopefully I will have some cool stuff going on this summer for you guys to read about. Whenever I go down to SC to pick up the GST. Then I got to save up for crap like head gaskets and studs and stuff. But anyways, good luck on the project, dude.

Ok Dave I had a few minutes free today so I started workin on your MS maps. So far I have rescaled my current maps for the 440s. Now Im not so sure this is going to work well since you are going to be idling at such a low pressure. If I were you I would take this map and change the fuel table to match that pic I sent you and save it also so you can try both maps to see which one runs better. I would try the second one first though. I left my spark map the same, should be fine for you also. I left the o2 feedback on but you should turn that off until you get your WB set up to run with MS accuratley. I have no idea about your cranking PW since you idle pressure it so low. I left it on my settings but you will want to screw with it if it doesn't work out for you. I turned the studderbox off until you build the circuit also the over run setting is still on. It cuts off the injectors when decellerating in gear, you will want to turn that off while your tuning along with the o2 feedback. But we can talk about that later. This should get you started at least. I need your email so I can send this to you

You mean you're going to build that circuit right? :naughty:

How is my idle pressure low? It's at 49psi right now with the FMU.

And when I do the install, I want the WBO2 hooked up right away. I'm trying to get it all hooked up at the same time. And with the MSnS being in the glove box it'll be super easy to run the wires to it while on the way to the WB gauge (if that's how it works). I still have to go over everything in great detail and see what wires all go where and all.

And yes, project threads are the shit.

I ran the SFMU at 35psi idle I believe. You may want to even lower it some more to keep your fuel pressure from getting to high with a lot of boost.

Not too much has been going on. I'm waiting for my tax money to come back then buying the pistons, rods and everything else for the internals.

I got all my timing components in today. Gate Racing Belt, both bearing pulleys, hydrolic tensioner, water pump, oil pump, and full gasket set. Total price on everything came out pretty good... did some good shopping I think.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P2260060Medium.jpg

Lastly me and Jason been working on MSnS so it'll be good to go when I hook it up. Still been too cold around here to do anything. Still have to do my power windows/locks conversion also. Besides that, car just sitting dead.

Car is going to be going to the dyno soon hopefully.

Been calling a lot of places around and seeing what the deal is. At latest, I'll get it up on the dyno in May right before the swap, however, I'm hoping to do some passes with the current setup and then with the 440s and the fmu and a decent tune with the SAFC. I'll try to get MSnS hooked up (ONLY as a logger) so I can get more familiar with it and see how everything is going on with that setup.

Just waiting for my internals to come in, then off the machine shop. Sad thing is, the motor will probably be sitting in my kitchen while I do the build, since the shed that it's in now has too much moisture.

Today I torn down the spare block. I didn't get any pics of it, but everything came out pretty good. If you seen on the 1st page there is some surface rust on the cylinder walls... when I pulled the pistons out through the top, about 95% of the rust came off with it. You can still see the crosshatching from the last hone. Previous owner had just rebuilt that block to stock (except .020" overbore). Crank shaft is also very clean, the journals looks brand new. Still going to take it in anyways.

All I'm waiting for is the pistons, and then off the machine shop.

Question, the large round seal around the crankshaft where the flywheel connects... is that the rear-main seal? My gasket kit didn't come with that big one.

Yea thats the rear main seal. Its a PITA to install the new one. Remember thats a dry seal so dont lube it up when installing it. The crank is probably fine but I would have it check to make sure its with in spec and at least polished.

Yea thats the rear main seal. Its a PITA to install the new one. Remember thats a dry seal so dont lube it up when installing it. The crank is probably fine but I would have it check to make sure its with in spec and at least polished.

The outside (around the edges meeting the block) should be sealed though? Just the inside should be left alone, right? I have to find my Haynes manual.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P3180002.jpg

More goods came in this week. This guy = super excited.
PLUS, I found a machine shop literally a couple blocks away that's open on Saturdays. So not this coming Saturday, but the Saturday after that the block is going in, getting machined out, and then I start the build.

Still no choice on a turbo yet.

Block was dropped off at the machine shop on Saturday. Costing $310 for boring, cleaning, and crank polishing. I know it's a little pricey, but the convenience of being open on Saturdays is worth the extra money, considering all other machine shops in Chicago close at 4/5, M-F. I would have to leave work early, which is retarded. Picking up this Saturday.

I'm hoping I can get it painted this weekend and throw it on my engine stand. Then will get to start building. For paint, I'm thinking an aluminum color because that just looks sexy. I know it shows dirt more, but I think it'll be ok.

My kitchen is a mess considering that's where I'm doing everything at. Was going to build in my shed, but moisture would cause problems. Engine stand in the corner, MSnS on a chair, parts and shit torn apart on the kitchen, door panels and brackets along the wall... it's a mess.

Also have another goodie that I will post pics up later.

if your garage is in the kitchen does that mean your girlfriend cooks food in the garage haha

Sounds good, when is MS getting hooked up? I though it was suppose to be on this past weekend?

if your garage is in the kitchen does that mean your girlfriend cooks food in the garage haha

:lol: Only for BBQs, and I do that though.
I wish I had a garage. It's just a storage shed. I live by myself so no one can care. When the g/f stays over, I'm usually the one cooking anyways.

Best pic I could find at work
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/backyard.jpg

I keep trying to install MS, but it kinda snowed this weekend. FAIL!

Called the machine shop and my block has a little crack on the surface. It's not on the cylinder, but going toward the outside. What they're going to do is plug it and then deck the block. Costing me $100 more now (shit). Gave them the ok to do it and it'll still be done by Saturday.

That sucks but in the grand scheme of things not that bad :)

My new cometic costed that much haha

That sucks but in the grand scheme of things not that bad :)

My new cometic costed that much haha

My Cometic cost the same lol.

Ya I suppose to could be stuck buying another block. Would suck too because I would still have to pay the shop for the cleaning of the old block PLUS the new block. That would suck.

Got the block back today. Looks great.

Turns out that there were 2 cracks in it. They're fixed, filled, and then the block was decked. Total cost was like $420.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4040033.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4040036.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4040035.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4040037.jpg

I'm going to paint it this week and get that all done with.

Does anyone know what size bolts are needed to put this thing on a motor stand? I was expecting the stand to come with some, but didn't at all. Weird to me but whatever. I don't have any large bolts like that here at home.

And my kitchen...
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4040039.jpg

Nice shop you got there. I noticed you've got a couple cans of brake parts cleaner on the table. I hope your not using that in the house or your going to be high as a kite!

lol thats probably what he was counting on

I hope not. I was in my garage doing the first clutch swap in the eclipse. I unloaded 2 or 3 cans of brake parts cleaner into the bell housing to clean it out. I was straight....then all of a sudden it just hit me....I didnt know what was going on. I about had to crawl out of there.

lol thats probably what he was counting on

I unfortunately have a "random drug test" at work this month. Somehow "random" = me... probably because I'm the art school kid doing graphic design. I guess that's how we roll. :shakehead

I started painting the block. I picked up an aluminum color and was hoping for it to be darker than what it is... actually hoping for A LOT darker than what it is. It's really shiny sitting out in the sun right now. I found a nice little space to use as a paint booth. It's under my stairs leading to the basement. It's empty down there... just used for storage, so no one is walking in and out. Camera died so took with phone.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/0404091535.jpg

I'm done for the day as now it's time to get me drink on.

And again, anyone know what size bolts?

Most of the aluminum finishes I have used have been really chromish.

Looks awesome so far. Not a fan of the silver paint but it looks alright.

Looks awesome so far. Not a fan of the silver paint but it looks alright.

Ya like I said... wanted more of a gun-metal gray to be exact. This will really show the dirt, but whatever. What's done is done. It's what's on the inside that counts. I'll get some pics up when my camera has a charge.

Finished rebuilding the turbo last night. I damaged a thread on the shaft so I can't get the nut on just yet, but that's a quick fix. There's no more play at all in the shaft so that's good. I marked down how everything was aligned before I torn it down so hopefully it'll be close to balanced again. I was going to polish the compressor cover, but I'm thinking that may just be too much work. I don't have the time, patience, or the materials to do it. I'm thinking I'll just sand a little and paint it a high-temp chrome or something. Should look decent hopefully. Also going to get a heat shield thing and a v-clamp for the downpipe.

Will try to get block on the stand tonight if I buy bolts and start working on some rings either today or tomorrow. Have a lot of website work to do so who knows when that'll all be done. But once rings are done, everything should come together pretty good.

I noticed yesterday when I installed a new starter (again) and had the manifold off, that the exhaust bolt on the far right broke off inside the head. So I have a nice exhaust leak going on there. When I pull the motor, I'll have to tap it. Gasket looks like shit now because of it leaking from 2 cylinders going downward. That also may be way the starter is getting f-ed up.

Block is super shiny.

More pics tonight!

That sucks about the bolt breaking. There are several ways people get those out so hopefully you wont have much of a problem. Also Dave I noticed the other day that advance auto sells studs that will fit our motor. It was an entire pack with nuts for like $10.

That sucks about the bolt breaking. There are several ways people get those out so hopefully you wont have much of a problem. Also Dave I noticed the other day that advance auto sells studs that will fit our motor. It was an entire pack with nuts for like $10.

Really? Like just OEM replacement studs? Was it 420a specific or just the right threading and such?

I don't see it being a problem. Just a minor set back from how I see it.

I just found them on the shelf where they put all of that stuff. Its not 420a specific but the thread size was right. M8x1.25

Also for all you 4g63 guys with the M10x1.25 studs on the ends they have a pack of those also. You would have to buy both if you wanted a complete set but it still beats having to order studs.

Those universal studs will probably work fine.

My car is another story though. It developed a habit of popping exhaust manifold studs like they werent anything. I put some ARP stainless studs in there now. And I love them. They work great. Well worth the $80 dollars. Expensive bolts.

Dont use copper exhaust manifold gaskets either. Never could get those things to seal right.

Those universal studs will probably work fine.

My car is another story though. It developed a habit of popping exhaust manifold studs like they werent anything. I put some ARP stainless studs in there now. And I love them. They work great. Well worth the $80 dollars. Expensive bolts.

Dont use copper exhaust manifold gaskets either. Never could get those things to seal right.

They don't make ARP exhaust studs for the 420a. I would have got those if they did. I use the MLS gasket that comes with the kits. Have always used those on the exhaust manifold and have always worked fine. But when you're missing a bolt, it doesn't form the best seal. Wanted to try to spray that copper gasket sealer on the gasket but was pouring when I did it yesterday so would have been ineffective and wash right off.

It wont stop the leak. Trust me, I have been dealt with so many exhaust leaks its rediculous. The copper gasket spray will only last like 5 minutes before it starts leaking again. Its not worth pullings the manifold off.

Assembled pistons tonight. Doing rings tomorrow. Got bolts for the motor stand but 2 were too short. Hell, the block may not even make it up the stand since it's taking so long just to get there.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4060045Medium.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4060051Medium.jpg

I actually have boxes being ready to be thrown out. Finally getting some kitchen back.

Looks nice. Cant wait till its running in the car.

Pistons assembled and rings gaped. Tomorrow, bearings.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4080066Medium.jpg

oh damn this is looking like a motor now!~

Screw these pics, where's the pizza carpet! lol :lol:


It's coming along dude! :thumbsup:

Well I didn't get as much done as I was hoping to last night because of lube. Plus I think I gave myself a hernia.

Got the bearings, bedplate, crank, and rear main seal installed. Took the motor off the stand to get the seal on and when I went to put it back on, it kind of hurt... like weird hurt. Anyways, I didn't realize that I didn't have the right socket for the arps on the rod caps so I'll pick one up this weekend and then install the pistons.

Looks like I probably don't have a hernia. Taking some time but my "areas" are feeling better with time. Been taking it easy at the gym so I can heal. Thank god... really didn't want surgery or anything. Hurt a lot.

No pistons yet.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4130078Medium.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/P4130083Medium.jpg

Lookin good. So when are you planing on doing the swap?

Lookin good. So when are you planing on doing the swap?

Not sure yet. My parents garage is now free though (was storing a car in there for someone) so that's open. Working on getting a engine hoist right now too. Hook ups FTW! And I want to get the car dynoed as-is to see where I stand in May. Then I'm on vacation is mid May. So who knows. Want start up to be first week of June

Have a 5 bolt flange -> V-Clamp coming in this week so I can don't have to deal with unbolting the exhaust everytime I need to get around there. Was going to weld my own together, but found a full package for real cheap. Will probably pick up some pipe to make the downpipe this weekend or next and possible start measuring and piecing it together. I'm staying 2.5" for now. May get a new cat too while I'm down there.

Parts still needed...
-Clutch setup (checking out some options this week)
-Bigger F.I.s (not sure what size yet)
-Downpipe
-New WG Dump. Will be dumping out the side of car
-Misc fittings/SS line
-Inline oil filter for turbo

And I think that's it.

So when you say time off in may does that mean thats when you are going to do the swap?

So when you say time off in may does that mean thats when you are going to do the swap?

No I was supposed to be doing to Florida but not so sure now.