david-b's 95 Eagle Talon ESi-T Motor Build

Worked on the coolant leak today. Did some sanding down on the T-Stat housing... did a little too much so going to order a spare just incase it still decides to leak.

Finished up the wastegate dump. Dropped right under the tranny. May end up dumping closer to the fender/bumper still, but this is good enough for now.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1117092042aMedium.jpg

Just need to make a bracket for the WG still.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1117092041Medium.jpg

What are you thinking your going to connect a bracket to in order to secure the WG? Looking at the dump tube, can you just weld a piece of steel near the bottom of it and secure it to the frame somewhere, like with an L bracket or something. IDK just a thought.

I was going to extend the air filter out and then add a mount to hold up the WG tube off that. I want to connect to something on the motor so that little bit of play will not break the tube. I have a feeling that even with the prothane motor mounts, there'd be enough play to brake it off. Not sure where I'm going to mount yet. Thinking a mount off the tranny might work... but still working out some plans.

Now that you mention that, your going to want to mount it to the tranny. Mounting it to the frame will just risk breaking it off.

Yup. I mean the whole thing is solid, but when the heat starts warming it up at full boost, it's not worth risking it. I want the bracket to come up right underneath it about where the sticker is still (should probably take that off and polish it up one day) so that's why I was hoping for it to sit on the intake pipe. But now I can't really fit one in there.

Actually now that I'm thinking about it, I may end up buying some longer pipe for the intake and making a full CAI. I'll have to find a place to mount the filter properly though. But if that happens, then I can mount the bracket on that pipe for the WG, and it'll be long enough to put the brace right at the WG itself to give optimal support. I'll have to play around with that this weekend.

But now since I have the dump tube on, I can pull the spring from the WG so the turbo won't build boost during breakin. I aimed it for last week to be driveable... will be trying again this weekend. Have to work on my fuel maps tonight and tomorrow.

keep up the good work dude. Cant wait to see some nasty videos

I'm really curious ab your manifold fitting. Have you tried to put the hood down to see how much it hits? I'm planning on bracing my wg off the compressor housing. The internal wg bolts are perfect for that. I wouldn't worry ab it breakin of right away. You could break in the motor now and do that later. It should hold.

Did you get the wb set up in ms? Log your break in runs I would like to check them out. Also what map are you running. is it a gm one? I set you up for a 2.5 bar one but I thought you were using the stock ms one. Is yours 3 bar or 2.5

I'm really curious ab your manifold fitting. Have you tried to put the hood down to see how much it hits?

Did you get the wb set up in ms? Log your break in runs I would like to check them out. Also what map are you running. is it a gm one? I set you up for a 2.5 bar one but I thought you were using the stock ms one. Is yours 3 bar or 2.5

I have no idea on what you said in any of this. Not ready for breakin runs yet. When I hit the gas at idle the rpms shoot up and stay there for a while. Still way to rich, still working on the idle... but havne't done that since Sunday.

Ya the hood hits. Haven't worked on that yet. Not important at the moment.

Ya the hood hits. Haven't worked on that yet. Not important at the moment.

Who needs a hood anyways? lol

I was talkin ab your map sensor. If its set to the wrong one it could be affecting your fuel

I didn't play with any settings for that.

What was the map sensor you bought? 2 bar, 2.5bar, or 3 bar?

What was the map sensor you bought? 2 bar, 2.5bar, or 3 bar?

Stock OEM replacement from Duralast

Pardon my ignorance but what does the map sensor do?

Manifold absolute pressure Sensor :thumbsup:

So that may be what it stands for but what does it do in reference to performance?

It reads intake manifold pressure. The ECU uses this information to know how much fuel to inject into the motor. The 4g63 uses a MAF to calculate fuel, while the 420a uses only a map sensor. Megasquirt also uses a map sensor to calculate fuel, this is what people mean when they say speed density. They get rid of the maf and only use a map sensor.

When I was asking Dave what sensor was it, I was referring to how high will it read. 2.5bar, 3bar, etc this is how these sensors are rated. 1 bar ~ 1 atmosphere = 14.7psi. So a 2.5 bar sensor is can handle 2.5*14.7=36.75psi - 1atm = 22psi. You have to subtract 1atm because of the atmosphereic pressure. So a 3 bar sensor will be good up to 29psi.

Hopefully somewhere in here was the answer you wanted Ned.

So Dave dont take that car over 22psi without upgrading the map sensor.

The MAP sensor is also one of the things the ECU uses to determine timing adjustments. Wait till you have one go out and see how your car runs.

I get it. Sometimes I just need knowledge spoon fed that's all.

Today I was hoping that the coolant leak was done with at the T-stat and I'd be able to get running better. Sadly, wasn't the case. As I pulled the car out from the garage, everything I did on Tuesday failed. FML.

Luckily, the extra T-stat housing I ordered came in today along with another package I needed for the car and it all worked out for the best. I pulled the manifold from the engine to pound in the runners. Bought a torch and heated them which helped some. Also dropped the $30 for a thread tapper thing to finally finish the 2 broken studs in the head. I had JB welded some studs in and those apparently failed. So did those right and holding very nicely now.

While it was off, was able to replace the -10an fitting that broke with a new one and take care of some other minor things that needed to be fixed.

The "Power Plant" as I called it all day. Sexy
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1121091038Medium.jpg

I used some new maps and those are failing as well right now. Car idles, just badly. It's high, then low, high, low.... in the video below you can hear it pretty good. I took some logs and will be going through them and seeing what Jason thinks about them. I've been going over the car trying to eliminate all possible problems, like using new vacuum lines to MS and stuff like that.

Jason: I disconnected the IAC and it didn't help the idle any, but now when I let off the gas, the rpms drop right down to idle. I'll send the maps soon.

Video of revving. Can't hear on here but you can hear the turbo and BOV.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/th_Whoosh.jpg (http://s59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/?action=view&current=Whoosh.flv)

Dave I just got a quick look at your log, your TPS signal is very rough, im guessing your not doing that with the gas and thats noise in the signal. Also your rpms are looking like their may be some noise in the signal but that could just be how bad the idle is. I would check out you TPS connection and see if you can get that better. You can change a gauge in megatune so that you can watch the TPS. It should either sit on 0% or maybe 1% but it should not be changing around while your not moving the pedal.

The TPS has always been like that. Even after replacing the TPS sensor itself. It sits at about 2-5% at idle. Shows 0% when motor is off, and goes to 100% fine. The SAFC showed that as well as the Palm logger. Never was able to find out why though. That's the third TPS this car has had. And there's no tension in the throttle cable. I've calibrate the TPS numerous times and even disconnected it yesterday and it ran even worse after doing that.

The rpms are up and down like I said earlier. They're not consistant and do back and forth the entire time.

Im pretty sure thats your problem Dave. That TPS going up and down like that is causing the accel enrich to cut on and off, you can see it in the pulse width. Mine is just a straight line at idle. You must have noise in your signal some where. I would check all the wires at the TPS with a volt meter so see whats causing the signal to be like that. It could be the power source not being consistent or something.

If the TPS is only noisy when the car is running then its deffinately something causing noise. You may can set all of your accel enrichment to 0 and it might help for the time being, that would let you drive the car some but you cant leave it like that. Other things use the TPS and it needs to be accurate. Make sure to turn over run off also

Like I said that's been going on for as long as I can remember. Not sure if it did it before the TB got bored. But I don't think that would have any thing to do with it. What could be causing the noise though? Bad power wires or something? Could I just run new power wires to the TPS and try it like that as a temp fix?

Edited by Mod

Did some work today on the TPS sensor.

-Tried backup TPS and still got noise while motor was on
-Redid TPS wire at ECU coming from MS (possible bad connection, not the case)
-Car idles good without the TPS... but at 2200rpm :)
-Found ground wire and connected to new ground
-Push TB stopper out some so the butterfly wasnt resting right on TB. Calibrated TPS in MS, then pulled out the stopper so it was reading 0%, but still jumps up to 5%. Also kept dying this way.

I didn't have a chance to set the accel enrich to off... got text after I already left. I did get some more logs that I will post up. I'm really at a loss right now on what to do.

On the good side, finally got the car up to 200* and the fans turned on for the first time.

So no coolant leak I'm assuming?!?

Dave - The TPS and Map sensor run off of a 5v source, I would check this power wire with a volt meter while the car is on and off to see if the voltage is causing the problem. If the input voltage going into the sensor is going up and down then the output will do the same. Also test on the signal wire to see if its oscillating. If the 5v source is in fact oscillating then you could use a 5v regulator from radio shack as a temp fix for now.

I looked over your log and its still the same thing, the TPS is tripping on the accel enrichment causing the car to run rich.

The TPS wire was reading 4.95v when car is in ON (motor not running). Sadly, I couldnt get the voltmeter working after I did that test.

I read online that it's a common problem with the TPS and MS. I'm going to use the ground sensor wire at MS and twist that with shielded wire from the TPS pin on MS and run both to the TPS. Where can I find another 5v source be from? Is the MAP off the same 5v source as TPS or is it coming another location?

I'm going back tomorrow afternoon so need as many ideas as possible.

Also, had a mechanic check out the GA.... not the security.

Oh, as far as I can tell, no coolant. There was a little spot under the car when I moved it but could have been overflow or when I spilled some.

The map and tps are from the same pin on the ECU

I'll check the MAPs power as well then and see if it's fluctuating there too. Be heading there later today after I help someone move.

Jason where is the accel enrich on/off option? Some reason I'm not seeing it.

Didn't make it to the car yesterday, but got there today. Sadly its raining so couldnt do too much. However, I did get her idling pretty nicely. The TPS was bouncing all over and can't come to a conclusion why. Ran new wires, tried weird jumpers... nothing was working. I reloaded the old map and worked off that to try fresh. After some work, car is idling pretty good. Little rough at times. It does run extremely lean at times and early it killed the motor a couple times. Not sure why the AFR is all over the place though.

Here's the MS log: http://www.dsharp-design.com/1129Log.xls

Just to show people since they all can't see my logs, this is what idle is looking like. Pulse width is still bouncy.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/idle.png

This may sound ignorant but is it possible that the TPS is bad?

I tried a spare TPS that I have and was getting the exact same results as the current one. The SAFC used to read the same thing so I bought a replacement to fix it. Didn't change anything. Both sensors are within spec also.

New log. Jason, I sent it to you.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/121Log.png

Today I made some adjustments to MS to try to get the TPS to stop bouncing around. Sadly, not much helped out. It is a little better. I then tried running a new ground wire from MS at the harness straight to the ground on MS. I did it a little half-ass (the Dave way) but it actually seemed to get a little better signal. I'm trying to find some shielded wire somewhere (no place sells it around here) and going to run new wires to the ground and signal wire of the TPS. Read on numerous places that should help.

And looks like the oil return line sprung a leak from the fitting... a brand new fitting. WTF. Was too dark to play with it though tonight... and cold.

This is aggrevating. Each time I think it's ready to drive... something goes wrong.

Pin #19 is the sensor ground. If you have two wire CLT and IAT sensors, their grounds (and the TPS ground) should run back to the DB37's pin #19 to reduce the potential for noise in the sensor signals.


Definitely going to run that wire.

Remember to load that other map. Your going to be super lean when it is finally fixed and the accel stops feeding your motor. I know i have told you this a thousand times already but I dont want you to forget.

I got your email, it makes sense. I'm going to reload the original VE Table that you sent me next time I go out there. Then I'll make the changes and wire up the TPS again.

For anyone else who still reads this... it looks like I didn't fully hook up the TPS properly so going to run the proper wires and have it fully running off of MS.

I don't have internet at home anymore so couldn't post...

I GOT TO DRIVE HER YESTERDAY!!!

After a crappy Saturday of not getting the car to start at all, I got her started yesterday. Turns out the Pulse Width during start up at 20*-40* wasn't enough. So after I bumped that up, got her started. Stupid Chicago weather. I hooked up the 5v ref wire to the TPS sensor and adjusted one setting in MS that cleans up the noise. After some trial and error, she idles perfectly. The car is running rich at idle, so the AFR was at ~12.5, but will pull some fuel there and lower the afr a little. Looked at what MSLV recommends and it pulls out quite a bit it looks like at idle. Will try that next time I get to the garage.

Fixed oil return line off turbo that was leaking; loose fitting. Looks like just a very small coolant leak from the heater hose but other than that it looks like no leaks.

I cut the hood while the car was warming up good. Unlike Jason, I didn't have to pound the top of my manifold. Made 2 cuts on the braces on the inside of the hood and she closes perfectly.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1206091527Medium.jpg

Perfect fit
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1206091430Medium.jpg

After that, I pulled the WG spring so the turbo wouldn't build boost and took it for a drive. Car feels good. Was running lean when I floored the gas, I'm thinking from the WG bypassing the O2, but we'll see once I put the spring back in. That clutch/flywheel feels great. Kept almost killing it off the line, and the rpms drop very quickly between shifts, but it's great. Only time car didn't lean out that bad while nearly flooring it was in 1st gear, and she had some pickup to her. Drove 8 blocks, logged ~85% of it. My dad drove behind me just to make sure I didn't break down or anything and he said it sounds great (of course was loud because of the WG dump) but he liked it.

Random inside shot. Have to clean it up a lot still and rehide MS and the cables.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1206091528bMedium.jpg

Then finished mounting the bumper and cleaning up some other stuff and the garage. Was hoping to do some more driving all this week to get the break in done, but it snowed, and have another 2 snow storms on their way, so who knows when the car will leave the garage again :(

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g291/david-b/Motor%20Build/1206091632aMedium.jpg

And lastly, my Grand Am is going to the shop. Compression test showed: 120, 25, 0, 0. I'm getting a discount at my old shop and just having them take care of it. I don't have time or space to do a tear down again sadly, but I need the Grand Am asap. Getting towed to the shop this week.

Dude, thats awesome that you got to drive it. And what clutch are you running? ACT?

Running a full Fidanza setup. I have to find which one I'm running exactly again... I believe it's the 4.3 6-puck and then the 8lb flywheel.

That's awesome how much you've gotten done in the last couple weeks. That's kewl you made the hood work with a little modification. BTW, car looks badass staring into the camera.

Glad its finally running man. I cant believe you got the hood to shut without denting the manifold. That wreck must have lifted the front support a little to give you some more clearence. Or maybe the hood pins allow for more clearence, I had to push mine down till the latch would catch.

Running a full Fidanza setup. I have to find which one I'm running exactly again... I believe it's the 4.3 6-puck and then the 8lb flywheel.

Yea that sounds right. I have the 3.2 sprung 4 puck in my Spyder, with the 8pound fly.

Glad its finally running man. I cant believe you got the hood to shut without denting the manifold. That wreck must have lifted the front support a little to give you some more clearence. Or maybe the hood pins allow for more clearence, I had to push mine down till the latch would catch.

The panels on the car look like they line up basically perfectly. I'm guessing that its just poor craftsmanship of the manifolds. Theres probably just that much variance between units.

The hood closes and latches perfectly. There's not contact with anything. It think it actually fits better now than it did the first time I took the hood off. The passengerside has always seemed to sit higher, but it's dead flush now on both sides and the front.

I'm sure the wrech had nothing to do with it. I only dented the upper part of the front radiator support, which was cut out and a new one welded in place. We s hould measure our units one day haha. Anyway you want to look at it... all I needed was those little cuts on the hood.

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Can't wait to get back there and get some more tuning done.

EDIT: Oh and that front pic (like all the rest) was taken with my camera phone. That one had the flash on, and it was almost pitch black outside. Odd how bright it ended up coming out. Also, the headlights were off. Only thing on were the parking lights.

Congrats man. Car looks amazing, I love black. So you like the 6puck clutch? My clutch (stock) is on its last legs and im going to need a new one. the 6puck is streetable?

Congrats man. Car looks amazing, I love black. So you like the 6puck clutch? My clutch (stock) is on its last legs and im going to need a new one. the 6puck is streetable?

Thank you thank you. Can't wait for a repaint... needs it badly.

Like I said I only drove it like 8 blocks which is nothing but it's nice and stiff. It feels great, but not sure how much of a fan I will be of it in Chicago rush hour. Thus another reason why I bought a DD. Just needed something to hold ~400hp, and the 4.3 6puck was one of the best I could find for teh 420a with a good price.

So 2 weekends in a row and it's been nothing but fail. Car won't start, when it does it won't idle. And now it does nothing. Wasted 2 weekend, both days, making the car literally move just inches. This thing is pissing me off so badly. The 'For Sale' sign is back in the window (in the garage sadly).

Thing will crank all day, backfire with Flood Clear on, and turn over every once in awhile.

-Was low on gas so I filled up 1/4 tank with fresh gas
-Checked all wiring... all good
-Got shocked off the coil while checking for spark. When spark plug was in boot, no spark though. Plugs were burnt and fouled so replacing hopefully today.
-Battery is totally shot and won't hold a charge anymore and been jumping off the Monte Carlo ALL day when working on it
-Start fluid will get it fired up and then burn off and die
-Have fuel pressure
-No leaks
-Reloaded old maps, new maps... anything for MSnS to try to get that thing started. Nothing seems to be working. Changed cranking PW to read temp from MAT instead of CLT
-Rewired coolant temp sensor (still showing ~80*)


And the part that sucks is that it's cold. This weekend was 35* so not too too bad, but today is the last warm day probably for the year they're saying. Going to be 40*, and then low 20s all week. Very very unhappy with this. May just put the car under wraps and wait til spring. Fed up with it.

Dave whether the plugs are bad or not the PW is still dropping to 0 as soon as the motor fires right? Well on the log you sent me it didn't drop to 0 but to 4ms i think. If its dropping to 0ms now then its not going to run like that. If you plan on putting the car up for a while may want to send me MS and I can check it out and maybe eliminate that variable.

It looks as if it was the battery causing the problems. I've been jumping it each time I try starting, and been using a car and a jumper in order to get it working. Took my DieHard back to Sears and got yet another free battery replacement. Sweet.

Took it home, and she fired right up. It was only 30* and everythings not dialed in for those temps, so she died after a rough idle. Tried a couple quick maps and got nothing then. But, she started. Now the temps are going back below 20s for a while so I won't work on it until once it gets a little warmer. Took the battery out put in the basement for now so it doesn't lose the charge. So unless I find some good cold settings with a similar setup to mine, I probably won't try to get her running until it gets warmer. It's sad.

Well that's a relief!! This weather sucks for trying to work on a car.

Ya I don't mind 40s or above, but when it gets below that my hands crack (got frost bite working on the Talon last year) and they bleed all over the place if not wearing gloves. I'll still head back there to finish up some other stuff when it's decent temp, like have to readjust the IC piping, going to make a custom TB cover and make a custom ECU box/cover thing. Also have to finish up the interior.

Well at least it's stuff that you can do here and there. TB cover?

Timing Belt cover. I didn't put any of the cover back on when I built the motor. It was destroyed from when I did the head. I'm thinking I do want at least the bottom covered up. I'm going to take some sheet metal and make a lower cover. Looking at the 420a block, there's lots of threaded holes. I do wish I had done this before the motor was in, but whatever.

I dont see how the battery could have kept the car from starting, if you were jumping it. You must have some doo doo jumper cables or somthing.

But yea I would atleast put a lower cover on it. I always leave my top cover off all my cars, I like to keep my eye on the timing belt.

I dont see how the battery could have kept the car from starting, if you were jumping it. You must have some doo doo jumper cables or somthing.

I used to be able to jump the car with just jumper. Got those little rechargable units. Last year I jumped it with no battery in the car. That was sweet. This year couldn't do that at all.

I had to have it hooked up to the other car, and sometimes have 2 jumper units on the battery just to get it to crank.

I thought you were talking about a throttle body cover...I was like WTF?

I thought you were talking about a throttle body cover...I was like WTF?

Haha... ya I shoulda clearified