Grip vs. Drift

[1viadrft]

Hey guys....
You may see me threading back in forth about GRIP and DRIFT and talking about my old 240 ... well, now I got a Z car and I'm in a new transition! There are no GRIP forums so here I am hanging out with you guys... I occasionally still hang out in the 240 forum still... I used to drift but with this new car it's really hard... plus it's AT! But I got loads of power and grippy suspension!!!
But I started wondering... which is better? Grip or Drift? Which would really get you around quicker? What do you think of grip drivers? Is drift all show?? Just thought I'd stir things up.

Thanks-guys.....

[flylwsi]

drifting is not done to be fast.
it's done as an "art" per se.

the fastest way around a track is grip. no question.

don't think that grip drivers don't slide their cars around some corners, however.

turn 9 at mid-ohio is a common place to see drivers sliding the back of the car slightly to get around the corner.

drift is, by nature, all show.
it's not timed, it's scored by judges. of course it's show.

and there's nothing wrong with that.

[1viadrft]

But don't some touge racers use drift around sharp-corners? It's used to get around the corner quicker than grip! I don't think drift was meant just for show when it first was discovered and used i.e. drift-king using drift to get around corners quicker during racing....

[jdmkenji]

CERTAIN corners you can get by faster ... lets say... a 180? or a sharp decreasing radius corner... you basically drift to ROTATE the car. But over all... ITS SLOW.

Everything else thats not drift is grip... so it just depends what sport your into.

if your not into drifting, your gripping... F1, Le Mans... whatever.

[Bunta]

^ what he said ^

[1viadrft]

But isn't drift actually faster cus you're not really braking? Or is it like braking? I dunno... when I used to drift I was not doing it to be fast... but those guys in D1 can drift at speeds like at 100mph @ a corner.... I can't do that with grip!

[flylwsi]

drifting, as a motorsport, it's all about art. it's not about getting around a track quick.

it's been gone over tons of times.

sliding a corner, like a rally car, or even touring cars, is quick if you're not playing around and hangin the ass out there.

meaning that, even in cars with tons of mechanical grip, you're going to get a slight bit of slide in some corners, and this slide can be, and is, quicker than not sliding in some cases.

corner 9 at mid ohio is one of these corners. pretty much everyone slides slightly on that corner. that's just it's nature.

drifting as seen in videos is not a quicker route around a track.

[jdmkenji]

Originally Posted by 1viadrft

But isn't drift actually faster cus you're not really braking? Or is it like braking? I dunno... when I used to drift I was not doing it to be fast... but those guys in D1 can drift at speeds like at 100mph @ a corner.... I can't do that with grip!

D1 drifters 100mph is their ENTRY SPEED.... by the time they exit they're prolly going 60mph...

use your imagination, your wheels/tires are designed to go forward, not sideways... if you go sideways your tires start to create more traction because it cannot rotate as efficiently if it was going forward, hence it will slow you down.

I recommend for you guys to REALLY pick-up a good racing/physics book and read that stuff before you even go further with all this drifting stuff.

[flylwsi]

i think we've got it pretty much covered, kenji...

[kfoote]

Originally Posted by jdmkenji

D1 drifters 100mph is their ENTRY SPEED.... by the time they exit they're prolly going 60mph...

This is the single best example of why drifting is slow around a race track. The key to quick lap times in most cases is based much more on corner exit speed than corner entry speed. If you're 10 MPH faster for 100 yds entering a corner (figure a max difference of about 0.2 sec) but lose 5 MPH exiting the corner for the following 1/4 mile long straight (this is usually at least 0.5 sec), then you are 0.3 sec slower for that section. Also, if you're running for more than a couple of laps, drifting is much harder on the tires, and will eventually further slow the car mid-corner.

As mentioned, the only place where "drifting" is faster on a paved surface is very tight hairpin corners (think Tarmac Rally e-brake turn) with very little straight afterwards. There are very few road course corners in this situation anywhere in the world (The corner formerly known as the Loewe's Hairpin at Monaco is the only one that pops into mind, and F1 cars understeer way too much at these speeds to drift well), ant to set a car up to do this usually compromises handling elsewhere on the track, resulting in slower lap times.

[323]

Drifting IS actualy faster, as long as you can keep a constant speed in the drift. It allows you to put the nose in the right direction faster, so you can slow down in the direction your going and accelerate in the direction you want to go. An other way to see it is that the vector of acceleration of the rear wheels is pointing in the wrong direction,(especialy with RWD)
because you want the machine to turn, not to keep going straight

When taking a fast turn on a dry surface, giving the car a few degree more than the tangent of the circle for that position will allow you to do as written above. On wet surfaces, the gain is even more evident. The reasons are that the tires dont get extremely hot, its easier to control and the car will be more likely to understeer if not drifting. Just watch ice racing competitions(like trophe Andros), it will be evident. WRC also show that drifting is faster. They immediatly point the car in the direction of the end of the corner.

The reason why this technique isnt use in formula one or other dry circuit race is because it would destroy the tires and the speed is so high that the degree of drift would be very small anyway. But if you watch movies from Gilles Villeneuve racing his F1 on wet surface, you will see he actualy drift!!

[323]

nononono, you are all wrong, drifting allow you to have a HIGHER corner exit speed, because you start accelerating EARLIER and the angle between the vectors of acceleration and direction(from the front wheel, wich makes the car turn) is SMALLER so the is LESS opposition between these two forces.

[flylwsi]

what are you smoking?
you're a fwd driver, what do you know about rwd corner exit speed?

drifting around a corner is not quicker. end of story.
time it takes for you to slide the entire corner vs. time for me to grip the ENTIRE corner, no contest.

also, you're not moving faster if your wheels are spinning, are you?
you're only moving as fast as the momentum is carrying you.
grip is quicker...

[flylwsi]

one more thing:
why would pro racers be adding wings and downforce to aid in cornering if it's quicker to drift around a corner?
think about that

[323]

******you're a fwd driver, what do you know about rwd corner exit speed?
***
Former AWD driver
Since both have rear wheel acceleration, their comportement is more similar than between FWD and RWD. And anyway, I had the chance to drive go-karts and few RWD to confirm this idea(but it wasnt even necessery to drive RWDs because this is only a matter of physic).


****************why would pro racers be adding wings and downforce to aid in cornering if it's quicker to drift around a corner?
think about that*****************

Downforce increase the pressure on the car, wich increase the friction between the aspalt and wheels, so your grip increase. Now to optimise that grip you have to drift.