97 Lumina, Randomly wont crank,

[wcshort]

Okay, good luck out there, here goes...

I have a 97 Lumina with the standard v6, 93K miles, plan on running it until it just wont go anymore. The problem is the engine randomly wont crank. I get in, put the key in, turn to ON/Run, everything lights up as normal, fuel pump makes it's normal sound, all systems go.... Turn to start (crank)

Silence, all dash lights go out, no ding, no clunk from the starter, no engine turn.

Return key to ON/Run everything come back again as if normal. and the Kicker...
this problem is RANDOM. Usually it starts fine, I've gone weeks and even months between failures, but sometimes it just wont turn.

Also, when a failure occurs I can sometimes try again in 20 minutes (with the same key) and it will work. However sometime it will take a couple days before it works again. Completely random and very difficult to diagnose.

I don't believe it is the Passlock system, the tell-tale security light is not indicating it.

What I have Tried:
-Replaced ignition switch (on the top side of the column, not lock cylinder)
-Attached a 12v lamp to the Solenoid power in and ground (when problem occurs there is no power going to the solenoid, lamp does not light up)
-Beating my head against the wall. (ineffective but helps ease the pain of having a car that can randomly screw you)

If anyone has even a checklist of all the things it might be that would be a great help.

I am at your disposal here. Unfortunately, anything I try may take several weeks to fully confirm that the problem is gone.

Thanks in advance for any help or insight.

[oldblu65]

Since you have already replaced your ignition switch ( would have been my first suggestion ) , make sure your battery is sound . I recently had a similar problem with my Impala , turned out the battery had a bad cell . Usually it started just fine , occasionally it wouldn't do anything . Replaced the battery and it seems to have eliminated the problem .

[wcshort]

Originally Posted by oldblu65

Since you have already replaced your ignition switch ( would have been my first suggestion ) , make sure your battery is sound . I recently had a similar problem with my Impala , turned out the battery had a bad cell . Usually it started just fine , occasionally it wouldn't do anything . Replaced the battery and it seems to have eliminated the problem .

Thanks, I believe the battery is about a year old. I will keep a voltmeter in my car and check the battery next time it happens.

[jeffcoslacker]

My '97 has done the same thing for years....I carry a hammer in the car and whack the solenoid when it happens, and it'll start.

Are you checking for power at the solenoid large stud, or at the small primary wiring? Because if the starter is not cranking, then no, there's no power at the large stud. Need to know if there's a 12v signal coming through the primary to energize it when it happens. Depending on your answer, could be the same thing. I've also found if I have someone hold it over to start while I mess with the big braided naked lead that goes from the solenoid to the starter drive it'll light off and start cranking too. I need a new starter, just too cheap to do it until it fails completely.

Neutral safety switch is a player too sometimes in this kind of thing. Next time it happens try setting the parking brake and try to start it in neutral, and hold the key over to start while rolling the shifter through neutral to park, see if it hits a spot where it makes contact.

[Tech II]

It could be the PassLock system....have you checked for "B" codes?

Like B2958 or B2960?

[wcshort]

Originally Posted by Tech II

It could be the PassLock system....have you checked for "B" codes?

Like B2958 or B2960?

I am unfamiliar with the concept of Bcodes. Do I check them with a standard OBD2 reader or is there another way. I have never gotten a check engine light for this problem.

[ptcfast2]

I had this same problem and managed to resolve it. It's actually a known problem that has 2 possible causes...

If you've never replaced your neutral safety switch do that first. They get worn out and will cause the EXACT problem you are encountering. All systems go but turn the key and nothing!

If the neutral safety switch does not fix it you need to look at replacing your lock cylinder. If you've ever had the SECURITY light on the dash blink or turn on randomly your key's resistor is wearing out or the lock cylinder reader is going back. Going down this road is a bit more expensive and time consuming.

Anyways, try the safety switch first - it's a documented problem on various W-Body forums and it usually is the culprit (lock cylinder can be, but you would have the security light turning on randomly when driving and it's more of a last resort fix as you need to get new keys cut, take the wheel off, etc...). Should be about $20-$30 at your local parts store.

[jeffcoslacker]

Originally Posted by ptcfast2

I had this same problem and managed to resolve it. It's actually a known problem that has 2 possible causes...

If you've never replaced your neutral safety switch do that first. They get worn out and will cause the EXACT problem you are encountering. All systems go but turn the key and nothing!

If the neutral safety switch does not fix it you need to look at replacing your lock cylinder. If you've ever had the SECURITY light on the dash blink or turn on randomly your key's resistor is wearing out or the lock cylinder reader is going back. Going down this road is a bit more expensive and time consuming.

Anyways, try the safety switch first - it's a documented problem on various W-Body forums and it usually is the culprit (lock cylinder can be, but you would have the security light turning on randomly when driving and it's more of a last resort fix as you need to get new keys cut, take the wheel off, etc...). Should be about $20-$30 at your local parts store.

Another way to defeat the Passkey is to read the resistor in the key with a meter, buy a resistor of the same value and solder it in between the two white wires going to those contacts in the ignition cylinder...fools the system and VATS will never trouble you again...

[Tech II]

Jeffcoslacker, he says this is PassLock.....what you are describing is PassKey.....

[wcshort]

Thanks everyone. I am going to replace the Neutral Safety Switch next and see what happens.

I don't believe it is the PassKey (passlock) system, I have never got a B code for it or had a security light come one. I have also tried a second set of keys and it does not change the problem. It's still could be this system but I would like to save the option of gutting my steering column for last.

I will update you all with the outcome.

[Tech II]

Have we determined if this is PassLock or PassKey?

Does the ignition key have a black resistor pellet or "PK3" stamped on it?

Check the P/N switch BEFORE replacing it.....

[wcshort]

Originally Posted by Tech II

Have we determined if this is PassLock or PassKey?

Does the ignition key have a black resistor pellet or "PK3" stamped on it?

Check the P/N switch BEFORE replacing it.....

Black resistor. And how would I check it when it is an intermittent problem?

[wcshort]

Originally Posted by Tech II

Have we determined if this is PassLock or PassKey?

Does the ignition key have a black resistor pellet or "PK3" stamped on it?

Check the P/N switch BEFORE replacing it.....

Black resistor. And how would I check it when it is an intermittent problem?

[ptcfast2]

Originally Posted by wcshort

Black resistor. And how would I check it when it is an intermittent problem?

I would just go down the road of replacing the switch. It's a cheap fix ($29.99) when compared to a tow bill because the car won't start. Plus it's a documented issue on this car and you described the normal symptoms to the letter.

If you rather test the switch before replacement you can wait until the issue happens again and shift into neutral (as you would normally start your car in park) and see if it starts.

I sent you the documentation on how to change it as you requested. Let me know how everything goes!

[Tech II]

OK, if you have a resistor pellet on the ignition key, you have PassKey, NOT PassLock.....that changes the diagnosis!!!!!!


When the car does not crank, look at the SECURITY light.....is it still on, or did it go out after 5 seconds?


If the light is still on, then the usual problem is the lock cylinder(has to be replaced).....there are two white wires attached to it, and they continuously flex and over time, one can break.....if it breaks, but the insulation is intact, this will be an intermittant problem......if the insulation breaks along with the wire, it won't start at all....This can easily be checked with a DVOM....read the resistance of the key.....then drop hush panel under the driver's side.....look for an orange sheathed harness coming down the steering column, ending in a black connector with two white wires in/out...disconnect it..........insert key in lock cylinder and read resistance of the half connector going up column...should be the same as the reading from the key.....now rotate the key from off to crank(will not start because that black connector is disconnected) to off, several times.......watch the meter.....should be constant......if it reads "OL" at any time, bad wire.....two options....replace lock cylinder, or get a resistor from Radio Shack, that matches the resistance of the key, and attach it to the half connector going away from the column.....

If the light does go out after 5 seconds and it doesn't start because there is no power to the starter solenoid on the purple wire in the crank position, I would be checking the starter enable relay before the park neutral switch.....