Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

[tempfixit]

My mistake wiswind, the imrc would need to be tied towards the center of the intake to be closed.

Here is a link so can look up Ford parts from Ford dealers:

http://www.fordparts.com/Landing/Motorcraft.aspx

Part numbers:

Part NumberPart DescriptionPriceYour PriceAvailabilityQuantity

9J559
Intake Manifold Runner Control Module
3.8L; Also serviced in 9424. Requires 9F955 clip to attach to connecting rod

Seems to me Searles that you have already cleaned the EGR ports correct.

Are you driving the vehicle daily? Is this why you do not want to check the valve train before ordering all the other parts in case you need some for the valve train??? If you by chance do need parts for the valve train you will be waiting again to put back together.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

My mistake wiswind, the imrc would need to be tied towards the center of the intake to be closed.

Here is a link so can look up Ford parts from Ford dealers:

http://www.fordparts.com/Landing/Motorcraft.aspx

Part numbers:

Part NumberPart DescriptionPriceYour PriceAvailabilityQuantity

9J559
Intake Manifold Runner Control Module
3.8L; Also serviced in 9424. Requires 9F955 clip to attach to connecting rod

Seems to me Searles that you have already cleaned the EGR ports correct.

Are you driving the vehicle daily? Is this why you do not want to check the valve train before ordering all the other parts in case you need some for the valve train??? If you by chance do need parts for the valve train you will be waiting again to put back together.

Yes. I do not have transportation otherwise, and we had to return home ,and the bus system and everything else here-well, it's a mess.

I was going to do it this past weekend, and was unable. Can I have the f-ckin' part delivered next day to the house, instead of to the dealer?

http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic398539.htm

Quotes part number as: XF229559AA

Called Chalmers Ford in SF, they said part number was:
XF 209J 559-AA

Anyway to bypass the local dealer, given how badly they treated us? We had the neighbor fill out a credit app using our info, a this dealership, took me two years to get them to stop calling. They have messed up the parts before, parts and service have a horrible reputation.

[Searles Lewis]

BTW, did a 0174 code this morning.

That's front bank, side of the imrc that will not move unless I use a piece of metal to pry it.

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by Searles Lewis

BTW, did a 0174 code this morning.

That's front bank, side of the imrc that will not move unless I use a piece of metal to pry it.

P0174FordFuel System Too Lean (Cylinder Bank 2

P1538FordIntake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open (Bank 2)

Yes you can have shipped directly too your house from dealer next day. Where I am from you are not going to get a part ordered on SUnday(dealers Closed) and no delivery service on Sunday, so you wiould need to order Monday and delevered Tuesday sometime. Your choice just tryiung to help you save time and money.

Has the noise stopped?????

[Searles Lewis]

Boy, the Denver people are like nigh and Day with the NM people. No crap, no condescending remarks, nothing.

Got the part.

The IMRC is not working at all. The front rod, despite being attached to the rear on a round part, will not move. What a piece of garbage. I was lied to by a dealership, and by a parts place online. Ford parts at the above site had decent, honest, straightforward people, and they gave decent advice. I have always been grateful for people humble enough to give good directions.

p code 174, front bank. It's the isolator bolts, IMRC malfunctions, and general burned up antifreeze from my landlord's doping it back December 20th. It took me 4 times, an hour to wash it off the back of the car. I had paid before to wash it off, to no avail-like rinsing off vaseline.

[wiswind]

I had very good experience in ordering my FORD/Motorcraft parts online through an online dealership parts department.
Sadly, the place that I bought from, Y2K Ford, went out of business.
However, there are other dealerships with online parts...selling at 30-40% below full list.

I thought that I read that you had cleaned the EGR ports already.
It takes some time for the deposits to build back up, so they should still be clean.

For the PCV valve....I would order a NEW Motorcraft brand replacement.
I have seen a number of aftermarket replacements that are pure junk.
The PCV valve is more than just a check valve to keep flow in just 1 direction.
There is a spring inside to reduce the size of the opening under increasing vaccum.
This meters the PCV flow to keep it at a level that is enough at low vaccum levels, and not too much at high vaccum levels.
I know that you see oil in the intake.....it comes in as vapor and condenses.
It is CRITICAL that you have enough flow through the PCV line to clear the engine crankcase of harmful vapors.....combustion byproducts......moisture (and there is a LOT of that in the crankcase) and just vapors from the oil breaking down over time.
Too little PCV flow will cause you to develop sludge and also cause your oil to break down quickely.
If the PCV valve seems loose in the valve cover, buy a new PCV valve grommet.

A site that I like for parts online is RockAuto.
They have some Motorcraft parts and a number of aftermarket parts.
Some parts, you are best served by sticking with FORD/Motorcraft.
Others, like oil filters, etc....you are well served with aftermarket.


IMRC....you mention 1 bank being jammed.
If they are not connected to the actuator, you should be able to move them by hand.
If 1 bank is jammed....you will need to solve that issue.
A new actuator will not solve a jammed shaft in the lower intake.
As I mentioned, I had a '96 that had a different IMRC system......same settup with the shaft with plates in each bank....but the system for moving them was different on the '96 through '98.
If you have a bank jammed closed.....I would fasten the other bank closed and call it a day until you have the luxury of extra time to worry about it.
I expained in another post in this thread why having them closed is just fine.
I am mentioning this again because the electrical acuator on the 1999 and newer will STILL move and give the PCM the correct signal (no codes and CEL to make one fail emissions testing....if you have that in your area) and the ALWAYS CLOSED extra port to each cylinder will help your fuel economy and cause no drivability problems.
The 1995 Winstar with the 3.8L engine did NOT have the IMRC sytem at all.
They boosted the horsepower by 45hp by going to this sytem starting in 1996.


If you have looked at my pictures.....there are many things that are similar and identical between our 2 windstars.
However....the upper intake manifold on your 2000 is VERY different from the one on my '96.
The '96 through '98 used a 1 part upper intake manifold that had the bolts holing in down on the OUTSIDE of the unit.
For this reason, oil inside the intake manifold was not an issue as far as the bolts holding the unit down....as they never were getting exposed to that oil.
Again, I will stress that oil in the intake is a normal thing.......however, the front valve cover was redesigned to REDUCE (stress on reduce as it does NOT eliminate) oil in the intake.

Please take time to check the front valve cover to see if you have the updated one.
If it is not the updated one.......then you can order a NEW one....and I recommend that you do this if you plan to hang onto the vehicle.....and if you are cheap like me......you do.
The issue with too much oil that is caused by the old design front valve cover (can also happen with aftermarket PCV valves) is that the excess oil can cause carbon buildup inside the cylinders......this causes pinging and even knocking......(not the sound in your video).

I do want to stress that SOME oil will be present......that is the nature of the PCV system.
I installed a catch can on my '96, that is shown in my pictures.
Even with the long lines to and from the catch can (sloped down to the catch can)....I STILL got oil in the intake....and leaking out the throttle body.
However, as you can see in my pictures....I still had a VERY clean motor as viewed in the valvetrain pictures....and that was on a 13 year old vehicle with over 229K miles on it.
So it is a trade off as far as PCV and oil.
Even at FULL list price......a Motorcraft PCV valve is not going to break the bank.
(shipping cost could exceed the price of the part).

So.....the newer, 2 part upper intake manifold that is used on 1999 and newer Windstars can have the 2 parts somehow separate and make nasty noise.
ALSO, I have seen posts of issues with the valvetrain.....often not a major expense to solve, that cause 1 valve to not be opening.....which could also be causing your sound.

I would ALSO verify that your spark plug wires are going to the correct places.
This one is a pain in the rear to do, but does not require parts to be bought.
Although, as I mentioned, if the spark plug wires are old....you are best off to replace them as moving 12 year old spark plug wires can cause problems....after all these years of heat cylcles......it would be a routine maintenance item.
I know first hand....from many years ago....that spark plug wires going the wrong places results in a engine making less than ideal sounds.......a very humbling experience that took place a couple of times in my distant past.

Fuel injectors.......if you were to remove the fuel rail/injectors....take note that the area around each fuel injector is a trap for grit.....dirt.....anything else that accumilates over the years.
I would advise that you clean this junk BEFORE pulling UP on the fuel rail and thereby pulling a fuel injector out of the lower intake manifold.
The junk that is sitting there around each fuel injector....is just waiting to drop down into the intake.......where it will then be sitting where you cannot get at it......waiting to be drawin into the cylinders.
I do NOT see the fuel injectors as a cause of the noise that you had in your video.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

P0174FordFuel System Too Lean (Cylinder Bank 2

P1538FordIntake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open (Bank 2)

Yes you can have shipped directly too your house from dealer next day. Where I am from you are not going to get a part ordered on SUnday(dealers Closed) and no delivery service on Sunday, so you wiould need to order Monday and delevered Tuesday sometime. Your choice just tryiung to help you save time and money.

Has the noise stopped?????

I ordered it Thursday nite, and I checked with FEDex-they still have no order out for it, yet the dealership charged my mother's card. I was told specifically by Phil Long I would get it today, when I ordered it Thursday. I have nothing, and they haven't even bothered filling the order yet.

I do not know, at this point, why. According to Phil Long of Denver (Colorado Springs filled the order) there is no record of it at ALL. I don't know if my mother cancelled it, or not. she is intentionally vague, has done that before.

So, essentially I'm sitting here, with a car I can here flapping pieces of metal, and which stops that if the engine is raced over 3k rpm.

Wow, am I disappointed with Ford, either way. Promises pretty much stink. They didn't have any problem taking the money tho. They just did not even attempt to deliver.

I've had problems before with both Chalmer's Ford in SF and Bob Turner's Ford in ABQ, even despite the fact my sister is married to the guy whose uncle used to be the parts and service manager at the second. I was told by both they would have to order it from Denver. I ordered it online at FordParts.com , and was assured that it would be delivered by Today. Nothing, nothing at all.

[wiswind]

Most parts places don't give Saturday delivery.
They may have said "by" but it might get to you Monday, or Tuesday if it did not make it yesterday (Friday).
If the order was not placed early in the day on Thursday, it would be unlikely to get it on Friday, unless it was in stock close to you.....it might ship that fast, but to be delivered.....
I have had situations where I ordered from RockAuto in the morning, and the part was waiting for me at my house when I got home in the early afternoon......but the part happened to be stocked in my local area.
That was "standard" delivery....whereas I have had to wait 5 days for "super fast" delivery.....when 2 of those days were Sat & Sunday.
Online records, I have found those to be out of date.....even to the point that they lag by 3 days, I have my part before the system indicates that it shipped.

I do not recommend racing the engine.

[tempfixit]

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by wiswind

IMRC....you mention 1 bank being jammed.
If they are not connected to the actuator, you should be able to move them by hand.
If 1 bank is jammed....you will need to solve that issue.
A new actuator will not solve a jammed shaft in the lower intake.
As I mentioned, I had a '96 that had a different IMRC system......same settup with the shaft with plates in each bank....but the system for moving them was different on the '96 through '98.
If you have a bank jammed closed.....I would fasten the other bank closed and call it a day until you have the luxury of extra time to worry about it.

It makes a flapping noise, like a metal paddle, now, but is still giving us problems. I even tried spraying it with PB fluid, the front one only moved with great reluctance after being pried.

I think it is gone. When we drive, it hangs at 3k rpm, and then we floor it for a few seconds, then it will shift, and sound normal. After some time, it is alright. But, it has stalled. Yesterday it gave a 301 and 302. It has bee nfine since.

I get the part tomorrow. It is snowing here now, sheesh.

I planned on taking of the cowling, then the plenum, then the rear valve cover ,then replacing the plenum, and seeing what happens when I start it. I plan on cleaning the flutter valves, with either brake cleaner or carb cleaner. I also plan on taking off the plenum, replacing the bearings for the imrc, and then trying to clean up whatever else is still in there from the anti-freeze. I also plan of taking off the fuel rail, and checking/cleaning it, and with each injector as originally suggested, then letting it dry overnight.

What do you think of all of that? Oh, plus I have the isolator bolts and seals, too.

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by tempfixit

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

I plan on doing that before starting with everything else, tomorrow. The noise reduced significantly again, when I replaced the exhaust hanger, and it is no longer swinging, the car I mean. I was moving all over, just like with the plymouth, until I added the second hanger yesterday. All stopped. Only noise now, instead of all over, is in the top of the engine, under the plenum.

Wish me luck, and thanks for your suggestions and help!

[wiswind]

I have step by step pictures for removal of the cowl......for my '96....so yours will be different...but very similar.
The only note that I will say about the rear valve cover is that it IS a LOT of leaning over and reaching.
If you have back issues or leg issues........make sure to alot PLENTY of time and TAKE BREAKS.
If you do not have back issues or leg issues.......do the same as above or you WILL have them.

Cleaning the IMR plates.....any spray that you spray onto them will run down into the lower intake and be drawn into the cylinders when you start the engine.

Removal of the lower intake is a bit of work....torque specifications for the bolts is critical.....and the lower intake manifold gaskets MUST be replaced if the lower intake manifold is lifted up / removed.
Also, the motor oil and oil filter MUST be changed BEFORE starting the motor as it is not possible to remove the lower intake manifold without draining a significant amount of antifreeze down into the crankcase.
We have not discussed or recommended removal of the lower intake manifold in this thread.....but I am pointing these things out in case you, for some reason get the idea to do that.

Each fuel injector has a "O" ring.
BEFORE you pull up on the fuel rail and pull an injector up.....spray a cleaner, brake cleaner, carb cleaner......to flush away the dirt around each fuel injector.
The area around each fuel injector is a nice dirt/sand collection spot....and that stuff WILL fall down into the intake when you lift the fuel injector UP.......and you don't want that to fall down in there.....very bad for the cylinders.
Also.....before messing with the fuel rail.....take a big rag....and hold it under/in front of the fuel pressure test/release point on the fuel rail.
The pressure release point looks like a tire air valve.......you press the pin in the middle to release the fuel pressure.

Another trick that I did whenever I messed with the fuel rail.
When I put it back into place......injectors are in place.....you are ready to put the upper intake manifold in place.....but BEFORE putting the upper intake manifold in place.....put the key in the ignition and turn it to "RUN" (not start....do NOT crank the engine).
The point of this is to turn on the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system.
THEN.....look over the fuel rail and make sure that there are no leaks.
If you find no leaks....then turn the Key to OFF and remove the key from the ignition and procede to install the upper intake manifold and the rest of the "stuff".

[tempfixit]

Originally Posted by wiswind

I have step by step pictures for removal of the cowl......for my '96....so yours will be different...but very similar.
The only note that I will say about the rear valve cover is that it IS a LOT of leaning over and reaching.
If you have back issues or leg issues........make sure to alot PLENTY of time and TAKE BREAKS.
If you do not have back issues or leg issues.......do the same as above or you WILL have them.

Cleaning the IMR plates.....any spray that you spray onto them will run down into the lower intake and be drawn into the cylinders when you start the engine.

Removal of the lower intake is a bit of work....torque specifications for the bolts is critical.....and the lower intake manifold gaskets MUST be replaced if the lower intake manifold is lifted up / removed.
Also, the motor oil and oil filter MUST be changed BEFORE starting the motor as it is not possible to remove the lower intake manifold without draining a significant amount of antifreeze down into the crankcase.
We have not discussed or recommended removal of the lower intake manifold in this thread.....but I am pointing these things out in case you, for some reason get the idea to do that.

Each fuel injector has a "O" ring.
BEFORE you pull up on the fuel rail and pull an injector up.....spray a cleaner, brake cleaner, carb cleaner......to flush away the dirt around each fuel injector.
The area around each fuel injector is a nice dirt/sand collection spot....and that stuff WILL fall down into the intake when you lift the fuel injector UP.......and you don't want that to fall down in there.....very bad for the cylinders.
Also.....before messing with the fuel rail.....take a big rag....and hold it under/in front of the fuel pressure test/release point on the fuel rail.
The pressure release point looks like a tire air valve.......you press the pin in the middle to release the fuel pressure.

Another trick that I did whenever I messed with the fuel rail.
When I put it back into place......injectors are in place.....you are ready to put the upper intake manifold in place.....but BEFORE putting the upper intake manifold in place.....put the key in the ignition and turn it to "RUN" (not start....do NOT crank the engine).
The point of this is to turn on the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system.
THEN.....look over the fuel rail and make sure that there are no leaks.
If you find no leaks....then turn the Key to OFF and remove the key from the ignition and procede to install the upper intake manifold and the rest of the "stuff".

Another trick you could do to relieve the fuel pressure is remove fuel pump fuse or relay and let the vehicle run out of gas.

I also read somewhere NOT TO IMMERSE THE complete injector in any solvent as it will do damage to the electrical part of the injector.

[12Ounce]

I would advise against removing the lower (metal) intake at this time. Remove the plastic "upper" .... then remove the plastic "spacer" (has the throttle body attached to it) .... and make repairs and reassemble with new bolts. Check results.

I doubt if removing the metal lower is necessary at this point .... and just will add too much to the current work load.

(I'm still betting once the wipers and cowling are removed .... a great discovery is going to be made!!! .... something like crossed cables, leaking cables, leaking ignition pack .... earth shaking stuff!)

[Searles Lewis]

Originally Posted by 12Ounce

I would advise against removing the lower (metal) intake at this time. Remove the plastic "upper" .... then remove the plastic "spacer" (has the throttle body attached to it) .... and make repairs and reassemble with new bolts. Check results.

I doubt if removing the metal lower is necessary at this point .... and just will add too much to the current work load.

(I'm still betting once the wipers and cowling are removed .... a great discovery is going to be made!!! .... something like crossed cables, leaking cables, leaking ignition pack .... earth shaking stuff!)

Okay, that is strange. I have replaced the plugs twice, the wires once, and the coil pack.

I took off the plenum, and the inner baffle was separated and sitting on the engine. Could this be making the noise too? Can I leave it outside?

I used carb cleaner on the butterfly things, one was a little open, #1, due to the buildup. I used 3 cans.

All 4 imrc bushings were bad. The new IMRC went on, with a hitch-we lost a screw, and almost gave up looking for it, before my stepson found it wedged on the bottom of the engine.

I had to buy two tool,s a six inch extension, to put in the bolts on the imrc, and 8mm box end wrench to take off the rear valve cover, which is still not off. The front right screw will not come out of the sleeve or whatever it is in at all.

Any advice?