A question for those of you who frequent contests...

[Scale-Master]

Originally Posted by lumpulus

Judging at the Nats is really no different that any other IPMS with one notable exception....currently you can get an award for just showing up.
It's called a premier award and any first time entrant gets one.

You may be also in for some big disappointments, as some of the worst judging debacles I've seen have been from IPMS judges at IPMS shows.

A very interesting thread. It can be tough to converse on a sensitive and polarizing topic without the benefit of hearing the tone of voice or seeing facial expressions, so I will stay out of the "excited" parts of this discussion...

I have seen firsthand some incredibly unethical judging activities within IPMS Nationals contests over the years, on multiple occasions and in multiple locations...

Like the time the #1 head honcho judge (and IPMS officer) drew a stick figure on a piece of paper and attempted to enter it in the only category that had no entries. This, after entries were cut off for all participants. Very unethical behavior from the (non-model building) overall head judge... At least the registrar had enough common sense to not allow it to be entered.

It was not uncommon to see entrants who were judges voting for their own models during collective voting by show of hands.

Or "adjusting" the competition by moving better built models out of the category the builder correctly entered in to raise the odds of a win for themselves (the judges) even though they were not judging the category they entered in. That is still a type of cheating in my book.

One particular automotive head judge had a practice of starting the judging by taking the hood off every entry in a given category and checking for ejection pin marks that had not been removed from the UNDERSIDE of the hood. If found, the entry was eliminated from competition. Now as a tool at the end of comparing all entries I can see it as a legitimate way to be used as a tie breaker in a close race, but not an elimination from competition at the onset. This was another non-builder judge too.


And the responses from the head judges when asked to explain their actions and /or decisions after the awards announcements were unbelievable. (That is when they hadn't become conveniently scarce and unavailable for comment...)
Commonly heard was something to the effect of, "Oh well, it's too late to do anything now..." or "I didn't judge that category..."
Sadly it was the same core group of non-building judges that I saw pulling this crap year after year.

Granted, any contest will have likely outcomes that don't please everyone. But the IPMS Nats judging team I am referring to has proven to me that they had no problem manipulating the results to reward or punish certain builders.

I have seen this from the inside having been an active IPMS National judge since 1990, but due to the lack of IPMS judging ethics, I have chosen to not participate in the IPMS since 2007. There are some great people still involved in the IPMS, but the actions of those in charge of the past national judging has swayed me from wasting my time participating in IPMS contests.

I think the IPMS rules for judging models are some of, if not the best, clearest and fairest written. Unfortunately they are often not understood or followed by those entrusted in applying them. I also think the judges should have to provide some examples of their actual building abilities before being "hired" whether they enter in the contest or not.- Mark Jones

[rallymaster]

Sorry I didn't want to spend hours reading dozens of useless posts to fond here or there the interesting lines so it may have already asked and answered but here is my wondering.

This might be a naive question but... Are you really so often competing against real fully scratchbuilt models...??
I'm not sure this can get enough entries to be a category by itself except in the biggest contests (and even there...)

another point, are judges in all contests skilled enough to judge a scratch built model...?? and to judge according/compared to what when you did everything by yourself ?? are they all even capable enough to recognize a scratchbuilt model if it's not written under ??

IMO only highly experienced modelers can judge scratchbuilt models... Which are hard to judge if you don't scratch yourself, and if this cas eyou might judge more from your point of view than a objective neutral point of view.

[wolvyreen]

Originally Posted by lumpulus

This thread went South thanks to racer long before I jumped in, and I really don't care what you think, but I agree this is getting off topic.

Yh...it did, yet I think it's unfair to put all the blame on racer! there were other factors involved too... and to top it off, you had to add fuel to the fire didn't you? Drunken Monkey and Racer had a disagreement. It happens. So what?

Secondly, If you really don't care what I think, then why reply to me at all?

Anyways....I expect you to reply to this comment too now cause maybe, JUUUSST maybe you yourself needs to chillax a little too hmmm....think about it....Netiquette is good for us all including me. I have no personal vendetta against anyone here. I simply ask that you not take a jab at someone because you simply have a personal grudge towards them. If you don't know what I'm referring to, then I'm referring to this comment you made:

Originally Posted by lumpulus

Danny-boy, you are turning into exactly what I predicted you would over at F1M, and that's a darn shame, because you are a really good builder, but you are turning into "that guy" at shows...you know the one that can't believe it when he doesn't win what he thought he should? Did you lose out to a scratchbuild at the Indy show?

That reminded me of how the kids were back at school towards the kid who was always the odd one out. We are adults here and there is no need to bring school days back. That goes for everyone fighting here.

Anyways....If this topic is not going to be productive, lets lock it. Can we all agree?

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Scale-Master

A very interesting thread. It can be tough to converse on a sensitive and polarizing topic without the benefit of hearing the tone of voice or seeing facial expressions, so I will stay out of the "excited" parts of this discussion...

I have seen firsthand some incredibly unethical judging activities within IPMS Nationals contests over the years, on multiple occasions and in multiple locations...

Like the time the #1 head honcho judge (and IPMS officer) drew a stick figure on a piece of paper and attempted to enter it in the only category that had no entries. This, after entries were cut off for all participants. Very unethical behavior from the (non-model building) overall head judge... At least the registrar had enough common sense to not allow it to be entered.

It was not uncommon to see entrants who were judges voting for their own models during collective voting by show of hands.

Or "adjusting" the competition by moving better built models out of the category the builder correctly entered in to raise the odds of a win for themselves (the judges) even though they were not judging the category they entered in. That is still a type of cheating in my book.

One particular automotive head judge had a practice of starting the judging by taking the hood off every entry in a given category and checking for ejection pin marks that had not been removed from the UNDERSIDE of the hood. If found, the entry was eliminated from competition. Now as a tool at the end of comparing all entries I can see it as a legitimate way to be used as a tie breaker in a close race, but not an elimination from competition at the onset. This was another non-builder judge too.


And the responses from the head judges when asked to explain their actions and /or decisions after the awards announcements were unbelievable. (That is when they hadn't become conveniently scarce and unavailable for comment...)
Commonly heard was something to the effect of, "Oh well, it's too late to do anything now..." or "I didn't judge that category..."
Sadly it was the same core group of non-building judges that I saw pulling this crap year after year.

Granted, any contest will have likely outcomes that don't please everyone. But the IPMS Nats judging team I am referring to has proven to me that they had no problem manipulating the results to reward or punish certain builders.

I have seen this from the inside having been an active IPMS National judge since 1990, but due to the lack of IPMS judging ethics, I have chosen to not participate in the IPMS since 2007. There are some great people still involved in the IPMS, but the actions of those in charge of the past national judging has swayed me from wasting my time participating in IPMS contests.

I think the IPMS rules for judging models are some of, if not the best, clearest and fairest written. Unfortunately they are often not understood or followed by those entrusted in applying them. I also think the judges should have to provide some examples of their actual building abilities before being "hired" whether they enter in the contest or not.- Mark Jones

Thank you for that write up, Mark. I, for one, really appreciate the effort.

I am going off of my limited experience (4 ipms shows) and talking thoroughly with some very experienced guys and IPMS judges from the MMCL (military modelers club of louisville). I agree with you about their judging rules--that's why I like the system. Of course there are going to be bad apples and I hate to hear that.

I will have to agree with the underside of the hood comment, especially if the engine bay was to be judged. Not removed from competition, but as something that is a "build quality" issue, it's fair game. Probably heavy handed at best.

Again, thanks for your input. I will definitely keep this in the back of my mind for later use.

Daniel

[lumpulus]

Scale-Master's got it right...while the IPMs guidelines are good places to start, that doesn't mean an IPMS event will always go as expected...I would love to know who these people you are speaking of, because they need to be exposed...PM me if you want to discuss...I HATE this sort of thing and really want to take steps to eliminate it.

Also....I agree that ejector pin marks under the hood should not be a cause for DQ, but I do believe that they do count as basic modeling skills and should be considered when judging.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by wolvyreen

There is a different level of skill and craftsmanship in a scratchbuilder. engineer or not.

whoa, it sounds to me that you are saying that it wouldn't be fair because those who scratchbuild are on a different level in terms of building.
i.e because they are just better.

For a start, that isn't the question here; we're not talking about level of skill of the builder. Rather, we are talking about scratch-building as a method by itself to build a model. You have good scratch builders and bad scratch builders. You have some who will wing it with styrene rods and an exacto and then you have guys who will machine parts out of metal.
It's all scratch-building.
Just because something is scratchbuilt, it doesn't automatically make it god like modelling.

The only concession I can see here is that in a competition context, you're only likely to see one end of the scratch-building spectrum.
With that in mind, would you then consider it fair that guys with lathes and mills and cnc machines be competing with those without?

As I see it, if you start to try and include more catagories in order to try and create a wider field, you will start on a road that will have many catagories with few entrants.

[Scale-Master]

Lot of great points of view in this thread.... And not to beat a dead horse, I hope this is not perceived as such, but I have had a few more thoughts to add, since I did not address the original query specifically about scratchbuilt entries in contests.

I have seen only a few true 100% scratchbuilt car models in competition. Not all, but most who claim that lofty achievement are, in my opinion, just ignorant to what the term really means. (Kind of like when people enter Out of the Box... And then write: Except I added this... - Insert laundry list of modifications.)
I can't count how many times I have been shouted down for pointing out a kit based model is not scratchbuilt no matter how much work was put into it. I often joke (truthfully and accurately) that I scratchbuilt more of my last 1/12 scale Caterham 7 than most people did who apply the term to their models, but I would never consider entering it in a scratchbuild category, it would not be honest.

That being said, the few truly or correctly attributed SB car models I have seen were done very well, but none were 100% perfect. That is not to say they did not earn their respective wins either. I know that sounds harsh and I certainly am not trying to diminish the astounding level of extreme quality of these masterpieces. Perfection is one hell of a tough thing to achieve, and somewhat subjective to some people. Seeing these works of art always serves to inspire me to try to build better.

On the other hand I have seen more models than I could count entered incorrectly in a SB (or SB/Major Conversion) category only to be allowed to collect awards by default, and in most cases these modified kits were so poorly done, they would not even have placed if moved to the proper category and /or been judged honestly. This unfortunately was something I commonly saw at IPMS Nats. The excuse was that they payed for the awards, and might as well use them. I am one who believes those (all) awards should be earned by, at the very least, meeting the category requirements.

I do however think that a SB model can compete against a kit based model, and depending on the quality of work, either could fairly win. Just because something is scratchbuilt does not mean it was done well. And just because something is kit based to any degree does not mean it cannot be finished better than another builder's SB model. Much like real racing, the best one of the given day (or weekend) should win. I don't think extra points should be given for scratchbuilding something; just because it was done from scratch should not be part of the process if it was not done to an acceptable level of quality.

A point about apples and oranges was made. Fitting description, but also one that can be applied to so many other aspects of any given category of what are considered "like" things. If the rules are written well, are thorough, and understood by the entrants and judges and followed unbiasedly by said judges, unless the the entries are quite equal the winner should be evident. But there are too many variables even in clear cut categories for that to the the simple case, and it is no different by throwing SB and kit based models in the same pool.

My point is the best quality entry should always win regardless of construction. But if a perfectly built kit model is deemed to be equal to a truly scratchbuilt model, the SB model should win by default. I never went for "He tried to do something difficult and failed, but the perfect out of the box build was safe so let's give the award to the guy who's reach exceeded his grasp".

Much like the use of the underhood ejection pin marks mentioned earlier, it is a reasonable tie breaker, not the first hurdle to clear to stay in competition.

I also see a difference, a distinction, between Model Builder and Model Maker. Just about everyone here is a model builder, if you assemble kits, you are one. A Model Maker is much more. Model makers make patterns and live in the world of fabrication, not just assembling and modifying. Maybe just semantics to some...

As for NNL's, they are not "real" contests in my opinion, and from what I have witnessed and heard from trusted sources, the "judging" is some of the worst I have seen outside the corrupt IPMS National antics. In many cases it is just a case of who brought the biggest posse to stuff the ballot box.
I believe the original intent of Numerous Nameless Luminaries type gatherings was to be an anti-contest type show in direct response to the founder of the GSL contest's comment in a popular model car publication. Too bad most NNL's have become what they rebelled against originally. But it does not stop me from going to them...

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Scale-Master

Lot of great points of view in this thread.... And not to beat a dead horse, I hope this is not perceived as such, but I have had a few more thoughts to add, since I did not address the original query specifically about scratchbuilt entries in contests.

I have seen only a few true 100% scratchbuilt car models in competition. Not all, but most who claim that lofty achievement are, in my opinion, just ignorant to what the term really means. (Kind of like when people enter Out of the Box... And then write: Except I added this... - Insert laundry list of modifications.)
I can't count how many times I have been shouted down for pointing out a kit based model is not scratchbuilt no matter how much work was put into it. I often joke (truthfully and accurately) that I scratchbuilt more of my last 1/12 scale Caterham 7 than most people did who apply the term to their models, but I would never consider entering it in a scratchbuild category, it would not be honest.

That being said, the few truly or correctly attributed SB car models I have seen were done very well, but none were 100% perfect. That is not to say they did not earn their respective wins either. I know that sounds harsh and I certainly am not trying to diminish the astounding level of extreme quality of these masterpieces. Perfection is one hell of a tough thing to achieve, and somewhat subjective to some people. Seeing these works of art always serves to inspire me to try to build better.

On the other hand I have seen more models than I could count entered incorrectly in a SB (or SB/Major Conversion) category only to be allowed to collect awards by default, and in most cases these modified kits were so poorly done, they would not even have placed if moved to the proper category and /or been judged honestly. This unfortunately was something I commonly saw at IPMS Nats. The excuse was that they payed for the awards, and might as well use them. I am one who believes those (all) awards should be earned by, at the very least, meeting the category requirements.

I do however think that a SB model can compete against a kit based model, and depending on the quality of work, either could fairly win. Just because something is scratchbuilt does not mean it was done well. And just because something is kit based to any degree does not mean it cannot be finished better than another builder's SB model. Much like real racing, the best one of the given day (or weekend) should win. I don't think extra points should be given for scratchbuilding something; just because it was done from scratch should not be part of the process if it was not done to an acceptable level of quality.

A point about apples and oranges was made. Fitting description, but also one that can be applied to so many other aspects of any given category of what are considered "like" things. If the rules are written well, are thorough, and understood by the entrants and judges and followed unbiasedly by said judges, unless the the entries are quite equal the winner should be evident. But there are too many variables even in clear cut categories for that to the the simple case, and it is no different by throwing SB and kit based models in the same pool.

My point is the best quality entry should always win regardless of construction. But if a perfectly built kit model is deemed to be equal to a truly scratchbuilt model, the SB model should win by default. I never went for "He tried to do something difficult and failed, but the perfect out of the box build was safe so let's give the award to the guy who's reach exceeded his grasp".

Much like the use of the underhood ejection pin marks mentioned earlier, it is a reasonable tie breaker, not the first hurdle to clear to stay in competition.

I also see a difference, a distinction, between Model Builder and Model Maker. Just about everyone here is a model builder, if you assemble kits, you are one. A Model Maker is much more. Model makers make patterns and live in the world of fabrication, not just assembling and modifying. Maybe just semantics to some...

As for NNL's, they are not "real" contests in my opinion, and from what I have witnessed and heard from trusted sources, the "judging" is some of the worst I have seen outside the corrupt IPMS National antics. In many cases it is just a case of who brought the biggest posse to stuff the ballot box.
I believe the original intent of Numerous Nameless Luminaries type gatherings was to be an anti-contest type show in direct response to the founder of the GSL contest's comment in a popular model car publication. Too bad most NNL's have become what they rebelled against originally. But it does not stop me from going to them...

Interesting points all, to be sure. The "Numerous Nameless Luminaries" is what my friends called them in a derogatory fashion. Your last paragraph is *exactly* why the local club's older and widely respected members mentioned to me not to go to an NNL. Will it stop me? Nah. I'll try it and see. If I like it, I'll go to more...

Your point of builder/maker is exactly what I was trying to say with the term engineering. I do see a difference between the two. I agree, it may be semantics, but...

At Nats, that's a tough call. However, I know of at least two fully SB cars out on the circuit this year and would at least have two in the category (assuming they both show). I imagine that there are a few more floating around. I don't think the lack of participation or numbers should deter the contests from having a separate category.

Again, thanks for your time and explanation. Having an experienced and expert opinion such as yours helps greatly for perspective. Thanks again.

Daniel

[karmodeler2]

There have been some great points made here and a few that I think were overlooked.

A great model is a great model. Doesn't matter if Randy Derr built it (who is a friend of mine) or if Mark Jones built it (who is a friend of mine)or Racer93 built it.(whom I don't know)


A great model is a great model.


Regardless of scale and/or materials used.

It's up to you to create/build that great model.

Case in point. I was in ATL for their NNL in 1999. I saw one of the most incredible models on the table I had ever seen. I had never seen this much detail in a car and it impressed me. I had brought 33 models and I wish I could count how many people wanted to know how I painted my cars so cleanly. They were impressed with my builds, but I went home with no trophies. The model that impressed me went home with 2 awards out of the 4 given (Best of show and Best detail...the other two awards were Best junior and theme award)

What I did go home with was a passion to build better models. When I saw the BOS car, it motivated me to build better models. I made a choice to become a better modeler. I did not make a choice to try and change the rules, categories or any other thing that might not be under my control. I said that if he could do it, so could I.

So I spent 7 months and countless hours researching/building the best model that I could and took it the next year to win BOS in ATL. I made a choice and everyone here can make the same choice. What type of modeler do YOU want to be?

And I, too, have had the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with IPMS on many levels. I don't agree with how they run things, therefore I don't go anymore.

At a regional show, I saw an OOB car take four awards including BOS. I felt that the scratch-built plane, with working features (skin was removed to show rigging and brass frame...you could reach in and move the stick and the ailerons and elevators moved!!!) should have been BOS because of the amount of work involved and the quality of the build. When I questioned the judges as to why, they said the car had no flaws and the plane did.

I disagreed. And I was the one with the car. Go figure. (and it had injector pin marks on the underside of the hood and the fenders of the car...WHAT?????? at an IPMS event......say it isn't so!!!!)


I say all this to tell you, that you will be the modeler you CHOOSE to be. It is totally up to you, not anyone on this board.

And remember, just because someone has "x" and you don't, doesn't make the playing field uneven. It makes you choose whether you want to get "x" and compete against them.

"X" can be a mill, casting equipment, airbrush, lathe, dremel, paintbrush, files, glues or whatever you want X to be. There is absolutely no one stopping you from getting "X" except you.

David Morton


And to add more fuel to the fire, I have won at the National and Regional levels at IPMS (First and Best Of for my class) and have won First and a Master award at GSL. I consider my NNL's from ATL to be the most honest and hardest fought ones I have earned. And they are the ones that are dispalyed and NOT in a box!!!

[wolvyreen]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

whoa, it sounds to me that you are saying that it wouldn't be fair because those who scratchbuild are on a different level in terms of building.
i.e because they are just better.

I'm just glad we are back on topic now To respond to your thoughts monkey, No, I'm not saying that although I can see how it would look like it was that that I was trying to say. I suppose I never made myself clear enough.

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

For a start, that isn't the question here; we're not talking about level of skill of the builder. Rather, we are talking about scratch-building as a method by itself to build a model. You have good scratch builders and bad scratch builders. You have some who will wing it with styrene rods and an exacto and then you have guys who will machine parts out of metal.
It's all scratch-building.
Just because something is scratchbuilt, it doesn't automatically make it god like modelling.

The only concession I can see here is that in a competition context, you're only likely to see one end of the scratch-building spectrum.
With that in mind, would you then consider it fair that guys with lathes and mills and cnc machines be competing with those without?

As I see it, if you start to try and include more catagories in order to try and create a wider field, you will start on a road that will have many catagories with few entrants.

Let me just say upfront that when we talk about scratch built models in general, we are not talking about the scratch builders that intend to build a ferrari and end up building something that looks like it came out of a nuclear waste plant.

Lets forget about engineering or anything else for a sec and simply look at the "antics" of it all if you wish.

When we are all traversing through these forums, and we see excellent models and all praise the builders and tell them what an excellent job they are doing, there seems to be a completely different reaction when we come across someone who has scratch built an entire model from the ground up.

Instead of us all saying and the like, we rather now say . You get where I am going with this?

I assume that this same reaction is carried over in to competitions. Now please forgive me but I am not an experienced modeller and have not attended any competitions. But this is not rocket science. I have done a CRAP load of reading here and research on many different models and I personally have seen the different types of reactions.

Reactions is what gets people "going" if you will. When I post my model updates, I would feel A LOT better if I got the reactions instead of the reactions.

So what I am saying is imagine you were walking around a table and you were looking at 100models on this table, and they were all plastic models out of the box but absolutely stunning, and then you see another STUNNING build and the owner says, "this was scratch built from the ground up". IMMEDIATELY your persona changes to and you tap your buddy on the shoulder and say" hey dewd, omg check this out! WTF".

That's what I was trying to say Sorry for the big post.

[drunken monkey]

Not really relevant at a properly judged event if the judging is "true".
That is also what I think was meant when something about going with judges decisions was mentioned earlier.

[wolvyreen]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Not really relevant at a properly judged event if the judging is "true".
That is also what I think was meant when something about going with judges decisions was mentioned earlier.

Well, I think it has also been mentioned quite a few times that the judging isn't always fair. I'm only speaking from heresay. not personal experience.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by karmodeler2

There have been some great points made here and a few that I think were overlooked.

A great model is a great model. Doesn't matter if Randy Derr built it (who is a friend of mine) or if Mark Jones built it (who is a friend of mine)or Racer93 built it.(whom I don't know)


A great model is a great model.


Regardless of scale and/or materials used.

It's up to you to create/build that great model.

Case in point. I was in ATL for their NNL in 1999. I saw one of the most incredible models on the table I had ever seen. I had never seen this much detail in a car and it impressed me. I had brought 33 models and I wish I could count how many people wanted to know how I painted my cars so cleanly. They were impressed with my builds, but I went home with no trophies. The model that impressed me went home with 2 awards out of the 4 given (Best of show and Best detail...the other two awards were Best junior and theme award)

What I did go home with was a passion to build better models. When I saw the BOS car, it motivated me to build better models. I made a choice to become a better modeler. I did not make a choice to try and change the rules, categories or any other thing that might not be under my control. I said that if he could do it, so could I.

So I spent 7 months and countless hours researching/building the best model that I could and took it the next year to win BOS in ATL. I made a choice and everyone here can make the same choice. What type of modeler do YOU want to be?

And I, too, have had the unfortunate pleasure of dealing with IPMS on many levels. I don't agree with how they run things, therefore I don't go anymore.

At a regional show, I saw an OOB car take four awards including BOS. I felt that the scratch-built plane, with working features (skin was removed to show rigging and brass frame...you could reach in and move the stick and the ailerons and elevators moved!!!) should have been BOS because of the amount of work involved and the quality of the build. When I questioned the judges as to why, they said the car had no flaws and the plane did.

I disagreed. And I was the one with the car. Go figure. (and it had injector pin marks on the underside of the hood and the fenders of the car...WHAT?????? at an IPMS event......say it isn't so!!!!)


I say all this to tell you, that you will be the modeler you CHOOSE to be. It is totally up to you, not anyone on this board.

And remember, just because someone has "x" and you don't, doesn't make the playing field uneven. It makes you choose whether you want to get "x" and compete against them.

"X" can be a mill, casting equipment, airbrush, lathe, dremel, paintbrush, files, glues or whatever you want X to be. There is absolutely no one stopping you from getting "X" except you.

David Morton


And to add more fuel to the fire, I have won at the National and Regional levels at IPMS (First and Best Of for my class) and have won First and a Master award at GSL. I consider my NNL's from ATL to be the most honest and hardest fought ones I have earned. And they are the ones that are dispalyed and NOT in a box!!!

Most people don't know me...anonymity is a great thing!

Thanks for the thoughts. There are a few other things that came into play that haven't been (and will not be) discussed that may change how this particular situation is viewed. My whole intention was not to try and "change the rules for one's benefit," it was simply to ask the question and have a discussion about it. Unfortunately, this has blown up far beyond what I expected...

That said, I completely agree with you about being driven by something you see to be better. I turned that corner about 2 years ago when I decided I would not settle for whatever came out of the building process. Now, if I'm not *totally and completely* satisfied, I strip it down and re-do it. This one thing has increased the quality of my builds incalculably.

I'm going to try and attend an NNL this year to see what it's all about. I've been told by several different people (even by the people who don't like NNLs) that the Atlanta show is one to go to. So, I may be putting that on the calender.

I wasn't saying the playing field is uneven because the lack of equipment. You can always buy turned parts or commission a friend with a mill and lathe to do some work. While I wish I could buy that set up, it won't happen for at least a year. In the meantime, I'll just have to be resourceful and also buy the turned parts I need. One of these days I'll be able to make all sorts of cool parts...

[Scale-Master]

Here's some more pondering...

Commercially available photo-etched parts, resin pieces and aftermarket decals should all be allowed in general competition since they are available to everyone who chooses to use them. That is my opinion.

But commissioning a friend to machine parts...? If that person (friend) is not willing to work for anyone/everyone, is it really fair to use those custom machined parts in competition on your model?
After all, the contests I have participated in require the entry to be the sole work of the entrant. If those parts were custom made and not available to all contestants, if they want to invest in them, are those parts in the same league as regular aftermarket parts?

Now back to the fully scratchbuilt perspective...

If the builder is availing himself of these aftermarket and custom made parts, is it still truly a scratchbuilt model as earlier discussed?
If so, where is the line drawn that allows a scratchbuilder to farm out work yet still claim it as his own self built model in a competition?

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Scale-Master

Here's some more pondering...

Commercially available photo-etched parts, resin pieces and aftermarket decals should all be allowed in general competition since they are available to everyone who chooses to use them. That is my opinion.

But commissioning a friend to machine parts...? If that person (friend) is not willing to work for anyone/everyone, is it really fair to use those custom machined parts in competition on your model?
After all, the contests I have participated in require the entry to be the sole work of the entrant. If those parts were custom made and not available to all contestants, if they want to invest in them, are those parts in the same league as regular aftermarket parts?

Now back to the fully scratchbuilt perspective...

If the builder is availing himself of these aftermarket and custom made parts, is it still truly a scratchbuilt model as earlier discussed?
If so, where is the line drawn that allows a scratchbuilder to farm out work yet still claim it as his own self built model in a competition?

IMO, I think it's not that different from paying, say, RB Motion for a similar product. (He does make parts on occasion if you have something specific, IIRC.) What if they accept "commissions" from anyone but only when asked? (ie/ They don't advertise...?) I really don't see that as a problem, especially when it is only a part and did not substantially affect the construction of the model. I saw the rules as the model has to be made by the entrant, not the parts. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But I'd be willing to bet that there are quite a few good entries out there that have a part or two that a friend helped out with. I wouldn't have a problem with it at all.

Yes, I think it would still be SB because it's taking parts that are generally available and then applying them in making a car of their own design. I think it's the construction that is important. Individual parts (say, a fire extinguisher and *NOT* something as complicated as a chassis or tube frame) done by someone else would be acceptable. (Please understand--this is all in my mind and I have *VERY* limited experience in rules. I don't claim to know or understand them. I'm just answering your questions to the best of my abilities, ok? I don't want this to blow up...)

I hope this makes sense.