A question for those of you who frequent contests...

[drunken monkey]

The problem with seperating scratchbuilt into its own catagory is that there isn't one single way of scratchbuilding.
As my earlier questions aluded to with regards to the body for example, there are lots of ways to go about making it. These days you can go the 3D modelling route as out Russian friend on these boads does or you can do it the more traditonal carved way.
not all scratch built models have working steering or suspension.

That is I asked about where you would draw the line.
If you think that kit builds and scratch built are indeed too different to be comparable then that opens up the ones I put forward as also valid catagories. I mean, how can a guy who cuts/glues plastic compete with a guy who machines metal? How can a guy who carves a body compete with a guy who makes a 3D print or otherwise machines a body?

It sounds to me like you are looking one extreme end of what scratchbuilding can be and then comparing that regular kit building. I on the other hand believe that the majority of scratch building is more like regular kit building and scratch detailing which is why I said that there is little difference between the two.

[lumpulus]

Originally Posted by racer93

Kevin, you are an oxygen thief. Jerk first class. You "know" me so well, right? You said you know all people of Kentucky by meeting someone from Cincinnati. (Anyone who knows this area will clearly say Cincy is nothing like the rest of the state.)

You need to get your facts straight...YOU were the one who insulted people from your area by calling them a bunch of Hillbillys who wouldn't know an F1 car if it ran over them.

Originally Posted by racer93

I am NOT what you said "I'd turn into." Ironically, what I am agreeing with is YOU about the IPMS judging, if you'd stop and read. My goodness, what some people are. An SB did win. What I was more puzzled by was the near complete reversal of judging between car shows and IPMS shows. If you read what I said, you'll see this is the case.

Never said we didn't agree...I said you throw a hissy when things don't go your way...

Originally Posted by racer93

Lump is a troll and stalker of the worst kind. Everyone knows at F1M that he's a power-tripping "mod" that will wield his make-believe "power" at any chance he gets. Everyone dislikes him and doesn't understand why he's even a mod. He even stalks me over here to do his internet bullying. What a waste.

Check my join date here(3 years before you) so don't flatter yourself. I check this site everyday, and generally stay quiet here, but I just couldn't resist letting people know your real reason for posting here. It really is a shame, because as I said, your skills are there, you just need to relax when things don't go your way. As to F1M...you got that backwards...you're the one people roll their eyes at over there. See you over there!

[racer93]

Originally Posted by lumpulus

You need to get your facts straight...YOU were the one who insulted people from your area by calling them a bunch of Hillbillys who wouldn't know an F1 car if it ran over them.

Yep, that's right. I said that you took and extrapolated from ONE experience you had with a "Kentuckian" and said I was wrong.

Originally Posted by lumpulus

Never said we didn't agree...I said you throw a hissy when things don't go your way...

When did I "throw a hissy when things don't go my way"? I was *asking a question*. I never once said anything to any judge, any participant, never said anything bad about anyone or anything. I don't get this...

Originally Posted by lumpulus

Check my join date here(3 years before you) so don't flatter yourself. I check this site everyday, and generally stay quiet here, but I just couldn't resist letting people know your real reason for posting here. It really is a shame, because as I said, your skills are there, you just need to relax when things don't go your way. As to F1M...you got that backwards...you're the one people roll their eyes at over there. See you over there!

If you have read what I've written, you will understand that *I am* relaxed about things. I did not get upset or anything of the sort when things don't go my way. It's life. I said I'll probably stick to IPMS shows because I like the way they judge. From what ZZ said, I'll probably try an NNL, as long as there is one close. I don't understand how you make these pronouncements about how I need to relax when you don't know my situation. I just don't get it.

I never said you joined before me--I'm saying you check my posts and stalk me that way. Many stalkers have joined facebook before their prey...

So, what is my "real reason" for posting here? Please tell me--I'm dying to know, especially since I've already said it...

Roll their eyes at me? I've had MANY more PM me in support after you go on one of your rants against something I said. If I could get their permission, I'd drop names and we can certainly compare lists...

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

The problem with seperating scratchbuilt into its own catagory is that there isn't one single way of scratchbuilding.
As my earlier questions aluded to with regards to the body for example, there are lots of ways to go about making it. These days you can go the 3D modelling route as out Russian friend on these boads does or you can do it the more traditonal carved way.
not all scratch built models have working steering or suspension.

That is I asked about where you would draw the line.
If you think that kit builds and scratch built are indeed too different to be comparable then that opens up the ones I put forward as also valid catagories. I mean, how can a guy who cuts/glues plastic compete with a guy who machines metal? How can a guy who carves a body compete with a guy who makes a 3D print or otherwise machines a body?

It sounds to me like you are looking one extreme end of what scratchbuilding can be and then comparing that regular kit building. I on the other hand believe that the majority of scratch building is more like regular kit building and scratch detailing which is why I said that there is little difference between the two.

Your last statement is spot on, DM. This is what I have seen, I guess it's the extreme. You're right, most SB is not that different but what I'm talking about specifically seems to be, IMO. Thanks for the post.

[lumpulus]

Originally Posted by racer93

I'd drop names and we can certainly compare lists...

Let's do that....over at F1M.

The "real" reason is you can't understand why a scratchbuilt beat you, and now you want to eliminate future issues be getting scratchbuilts seperated into their own category, so you can eliminate possible competition in a passive\agressive way from the categories you compete in, therefore maximizing chances for more awards.

You really are causing yourself undo grief, because your build, from what little I've seen of them, are quite good. Not only that, alot of events DO have seperate scratchbuilt and conversion categories, so your concern is really unwarranted.

Do yourself a favor....save up your pennies and got to an IPMS Nats, then you can really see where you stand.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by lumpulus

Let's do that....over at F1M.

The "real" reason is you can't understand why a scratchbuilt beat you, and now you want to eliminate future issues be getting scratchbuilts seperated into their own category, so you can eliminate possible competition in a passive\agressive way from the categories you compete in, therefore maximizing chances for more awards.

You really are causing yourself undo grief, because your build, from what little I've seen of them, are quite good. Not only that, alot of events DO have seperate scratchbuilt and conversion categories, so your concern is really unwarranted.

Do yourself a favor....save up your pennies and got to an IPMS Nats, then you can really see where you stand.

No, not at all. I could care less about trophies, whether or not you want to believe it. I'm looking at it from a rules standpoint. Regardless of category, when you get down to BoS awards, everyone competes against everyone else regardless of category. So, you're going up against each other at some point. (Assuming each wins their respective categories.) DM gets my point about it.

See, that's why I asked the question! Only one person out of all the responses (besides yourself) said this is the case. (It was more of a "maybe...") And I thanked them for it. Had this been said in the beginning, none of the rest of this would even have been discussed!

I do *very much* want to go to Nats. Several nationally award-winning modelers from here are convinced I could do "very well" at nats. I'm not saying this to be arrogant, just repeating what they said because these guys are well traveled and very skilled builders in the military and diorama genres. I wish this could have been a year ago, as I could have gone to nats in Columbus. Oh well. I do prefer the IPMS shows and judging, as they're about as objective as you can get in a very subjective art. That's what I like about them.

[drunken monkey]

I also am looking at this from the point of view of a guy who is scratch building a model (very slowly though...).
So far, I have made the chassis out of sheet styrene and extruded styrene sections bonded together for the chassis and have been making suspension components out of styrene rod and tubes.
The body was mastered from a die cast copy but it will need massive re-shaping to get it from the current state (a MK2 body) to the one I need (a MK1 version).

As I said, I would consider that a scratch built model but I would hardly call it engineering.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

I also am looking at this from the point of view of a guy who is scratch building a model (very slowly though...).
So far, I have made the chassis out of sheet styrene and extruded styrene sections bonded together for the chassis and have been making suspension components out of styrene rod and tubes.
The body was mastered from a die cast copy but it will need massive re-shaping to get it from the current state (a MK2 body) to the one I need (a MK1 version).

As I said, I would consider that a scratch built model but I would hardly call it engineering.

See, I'm thinking that all the angle measurements, milling/lathing, molding, etc., that you'd do that you wouldn't normally do in a plastic kit (even with some SBing) is more at least towards engineering than what I do (just building a detailed plastic kit).

Whatcha building?

[drunken monkey]

but all the angle measuring and moulding you would/could do as part of a regular build anyway.
Cesar Bossalani certainly does for his builds as I recall he didn't like the look of some suspension components in a kit so he made his own wishbones.
Same as when any of us re-make our our shocks and springs; there is measuring, cutting, making and if you want to have near as identical parts, molding and casting.
It then isn't much more work to turn a static kit's fixed suspension into a (sort of) working one once you've made your shocks and especially if you use metal tubes and rods instead of styrene.

As I said before, the molding and casting people do all the time for body kits/mods.

I don't have a lathe so I've done no milling or turning.

In fact, pretty much everything I've done so far is what would be called sculpture more than anything and nothing I've done isn't anything I haven't done for an architectural model for study or professional purposes.

But yes, to reiterate, that is just what/how I've been doing things.
You can certainly take a more technical approach to it and say 3D scan a real car then 3D print a master to scale and use every possible form of fabrication to make the same car model and than I think I would happily call that an engineered model but that is a veeery extreme example.

In the example you gave of a 1/12 model being very highly engineered, I would say that suggests to me that 1/12 scale shouldn't be judged against 1/24 more than anything because of the differences in limitations between the scales. Even then though, in a modelling competition, how much does that matter when the judges should be judging modelling skills, not engineering skills?


And it's a Lotus Elise.
I stopped taking photos of it because I hit a brick wall in my initial casting technique.
Figuring out if I really want opening doors on it or not because if I have them opening, I'd like to keep as close as possible to the original as possible which would mean sculpting the unique hinge mechanism then making casts of them then hoping it's strong enough in resin.

[lumpulus]

Originally Posted by racer93

I do *very much* want to go to Nats. Several nationally award-winning modelers from here are convinced I could do "very well" at nats. I'm not saying this to be arrogant, just repeating what they said because these guys are well traveled and very skilled builders in the military and diorama genres. I wish this could have been a year ago, as I could have gone to nats in Columbus. Oh well. I do prefer the IPMS shows and judging, as they're about as objective as you can get in a very subjective art. That's what I like about them.

Judging at the Nats is really no different that any other IPMS with one notable exception....currently you can get an award for just showing up.
It's called a premier award and any first time entrant gets one.

You may be also in for some big disappointments, as some of the worst judging debacles I've seen have been from IPMS judges at IPMS shows.

[racer93]

...and that's fine if it happens. Some days you're the bird, some days you're the statue. It would suck if that happened, but if it does, it does. Do I necessarily want it to? No. Would I be devastated and stop modeling if it did? No. Poop happens in life. Plus, I don't think I can make it in the next two years because it's in Omaha (too far) and Florida somewhere next year (still too far). Hopefully some day. We will see.

I've actually been impressed by the judging at the 4 IPMS shows I've been to. Very strict and regimented. No fly by the seat of your pants deal (at least the chapters I've seen--doesn't apply necessarily to all). I hope to be as successful as I can be. That allows for wiggle room and keeps expectations at bay. That's where people get in trouble is in expectations.

PS--Thank you for the complements on my builds.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

In the example you gave of a 1/12 model being very highly engineered, I would say that suggests to me that 1/12 scale shouldn't be judged against 1/24 more than anything because of the differences in limitations between the scales. Even then though, in a modelling competition, how much does that matter when the judges should be judging modelling skills, not engineering skills?


And it's a Lotus Elise.
I stopped taking photos of it because I hit a brick wall in my initial casting technique.
Figuring out if I really want opening doors on it or not because if I have them opening, I'd like to keep as close as possible to the original as possible which would mean sculpting the unique hinge mechanism then making casts of them then hoping it's strong enough in resin.

Your point is again a good one. That's what I see is the difference between IPMS and car shows (at least here in the states), in the judging of skills department. Just my opinion, though.

Good luck on the Elise. What year?

[lumpulus]

Originally Posted by racer93

PS--Thank you for the complements on my builds.

Good builds are good builds, now you just need to work on your Netiqutte.

[wolvyreen]

Man, I took 30min to read through this entire thread. It started so well and has ended really badly! so sad...

Personally, I tend to agree with Racer. There is a different level of skill and craftsmanship in a scratchbuilder. engineer or not. That doesn't matter though cause its my opinion! and no, I'm not agreeing with him cause I am a buddy or something, I live in South Africa and he lives,... well.... I dont really know...

Anyway,

Lumpulus, I think you took a completely unnecessary jab at racer when you started posting in this thread. You did that intentionally to make things even more tense than they needed to be and he reacted to your statements because you jabbed at him. I think you need to learn some Netiqutte yourself bud cause that was completely uncalled for! It just was not necessary to be so, (well, for the lack of a better word) MEAN!

Lets stay on topic and keep this nice and clean shall we? AND STOP attacking each other. It's not needed when we simply want to talk about the real topic here which is very interesting in my opinion which is "Is it fair to judge Scratch building and OOB building in the same category"

[lumpulus]

Originally Posted by wolvyreen

Lumpulus, I think you took a completely unnecessary jab at racer when you started posting in this thread. You did that intentionally to make things even more tense than they needed to be and he reacted to your statements because you jabbed at him. I think you need to learn some Netiqutte yourself bud cause that was completely uncalled for! It just was not necessary to be so, (well, for the lack of a better word) MEAN!

This thread went South thanks to racer long before I jumped in, and I really don't care what you think, but I agree this is getting off topic.