to all z06 non-believers

[MattyG]

Originally posted by flylwsi


like above, 320ish whp is about 375ish crank hp...

so it's close...

and you're still talking about a heavier car, with less hp, than a zo6...

you're still not going to be as fast.

that's been talked about, proven, and taken care of.

it's even more relevant the zo6 is a better care than a gt-r when you take it to a track like the 'ring, that combines straights, corners, whatever... so it doesn't favor just one car...

and besides, this post is in regards to the zo6/modena debate...

Oops....TatII's post made me think it was a GTR comparo.

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by Neutrino
btw i have a quik question: why is everyone so obssesd with this track. there are plenty more out there that are as or more difficult.

the 'ring was the initial focus of the zo6 vs modena debate

we were discussing which would be a better track car and one of the people responding from europe (crazayjay i think it was) asked if the z06 had ever been on the ring (considered the ultimate track test, which i personally dont deny)

laguna seca, sears point, etc., can all be quickly learned compared to the time it takes for one to learn the nurburgring . . . in essence i think lap times are always striving to improve on this track (both drivers and car setups)

[crayzayjay]

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
i knew from the second i posted this you would see it, that was my intent

Oh i see. You excuse yourself to the thread-starter, saying you dont want to hijack the thread, and then post in a childish manner knowingly provoking a reaction. Whats that word? Ah yes, hypocrite.

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
yes i'm sure GM is outright lying about this car, or are you just not willing to believe otherwise because your argument goes down the drain

I didnt say Chevy are lying, i said im skeptical of what i read because i have every right to be, as manufacturers have every reason to embellish or manufacture a story. Manufacturers lie about performance, fuel consumption, etc etc, on a day-to-day basis. If you want to believe everything you read, thats fine, but i dont. I just find it strange that if Z06's have lapped the ring in 7.56, as Bloo says in his last post (btw Bloo the link doesnt seem to work, but id be interested to read what you found if you can fix the link, thanks), i havent read or heard about it anywhere. Depending on when it achieved 7.56, that may well have been a new lap record, or at least equalled what could have been at the time the 996 GT3's lap record and so would have warranted a mention somewhere.

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
It also shows that if all the GM has to do to run sub 8 minute laptimes is some shock tuning (the only suspension modification for 2004) then obviously your argument about the Modena being "better" is well. . . wrong.

From the link you posted:

"The enhancements for 2004 are subtle in terms of physical parts, but significant in terms of the car's performance and feel"

Well your holy bible claims the changes arent as insignificant as you like to think. If youre going to quarrel with everything at least get your facts right. Besides, a little tuning can go a long way. I refer you to the Ferrari 575M, a piece of junk standard and a wonderful car with the Fiorano suspension tweaks.

Originally posted by FYRHWK1

Got your eye on me? good, you might learn something

The only thing anyone can learn from you is how to be crude and disrespectful. If you dont want to heed my warning, fine, thats your call. But ive told you before, your tirades arent appreciated.

Originally posted by FYRHWK1

but when you close a thread with the final note of "PM me any new information and it might get posted" and then ignore new information

The fact you were incapable to PM me in a civil manner backed up my impression that the thread was incapable of going any further. So i told you to start a new thread saying whatever you like about the Z06, as long as it wasnt the same comparison. If you see something "hilarious" in that, im glad you were entertained. There was nothing wrong with this thread before your little interruption, so hopefully we can get back to talking about the car.

Now please, no one wants any more outbursts, talk all you want about the car, and about the car only. If you feel really obliged to vent any more anger at me, keep it off the threads. Then no one else will be dragged into it, and i can deal with you as necessary

[flylwsi]

crazy...

the link worked the day he posted the thread, and i read what it had on there, including the time at the ring...

unfortunately, i can't back it up b/c it's not working, but it did the other day...

[flylwsi]

this is the entire first article, first link...

"4/24/03

General Motors -

2004 Chevrolet Corvette: Commemorative Edition Celebrates Racing Success, and Improves the C5 Breed

DETROIT, MICH. - Since its inception in 1997, the fifth-generation Chevrolet Corvette has created a remarkable string of performance achievements, on the road and on the racetrack. For 2004, the final chapter in the C5 era, this tradition continues with the Commemorative Edition Corvette, celebrating Corvette Racing's historic Le Mans victories and delivering technology that once again improves the breed.

Corvette Racing has claimed consecutive GTS class championships in 2001 and 2002 at the famed Le Mans 24 Hours, the world's most prestigious sports car endurance race.

"The great racing success of the C5-R is more than just symbolic, it's a real testament to the world-class technology and performance of the Corvette," says David Hill, vehicle line executive and Corvette chief engineer. "We've created the 2004 Commemorative Edition to share our racing achievements with Corvette enthusiasts, while bringing real performance and technology upgrades to the Z06."

The 2004 Commemorative Edition Z06 features a new hood using carbon fiber material, and exterior graphics and color designed in concert with the new-look C5-R that will go for a landmark third consecutive Le Mans GTS class championship. The carbon fiber hood represents the first time this advanced material has been used as original equipment for a painted exterior panel on a North American-produced vehicle. The unique Le Mans Blue paint with a silver and red center graphic will appear on the race car only at Le Mans 2003 and only on the road on a limited number of 2004 Commemorative Edition Z06s.

Commemorative Edition Corvette Coupes and Convertibles will also be available for 2004. These will share an exclusive package of styling amenities, including Le Mans Blue paint and a Shale-colored interior, with a Commemorative Edition exterior badge noting Corvette's Le Mans titles. Special embroidery on the headrests of each seat is also included.

"At Chevrolet and especially with the Corvette, racing is part of our DNA," says Rick Baldick, Corvette Marketing Director. "The 2004 Commemorative Edition provides us the opportunity to connect our customers even more closely with this unprecedented era of Corvette Racing."

2004 Z06 - another round of technical enhancements

The Z06 Corvette shook the foundations of the sports car world upon its 2001 debut, as the Corvette for the extreme performance enthusiast. Just a year later, horsepower moved from 385 to an awe-inspiring 405. For 2004, Z06 gets two performance-enhancing upgrades - the lightweight, race-inspired carbon fiber hood for the Commemorative Edition, and revised chassis tuning for quicker, smoother response in the most challenging environments.

The carbon fiber hood - only available on the Commemorative Edition version of the 2004 Z06 - weighs 20.5 pounds, 10.6 less than the standard hood, providing another measure of weight savings for a car that already enjoys a very potent power-to-weight ratio. Previously reserved for racing and exotic sports cars, carbon fiber combines extremely high strength and low weight. The inside hood panel is a hybrid of carbon fiber and Sheet Molded Compound (SMC).

Specifically developed for the Corvette, the Commemorative Edition Z06 hood achieves a higher level of exterior finish quality than previous automotive applications of carbon fiber. On most carbon fiber parts, the woven pattern of the material is easily seen beneath the exterior finish. To diminish that effect and preserve the rich LeMans Blue paint finish, on the Commemorative Edition Z06 the carbon fibers are aligned in a single direction. The only visual cue that the hood is made from carbon fiber is in the red border surrounding the silver graphic on the car, which is arranged in a woven pattern signifying the material that lies underneath. The overall result is a finish consistent with the rest of the car that gives just a slight hint at the carbon fiber construction.

Nurburgring-inspired chassis tuning

All 2004 Z06 Corvettes will benefit from the continual pursuit of performance enhancements that have characterized the C5 era. The enhancements for 2004 are subtle in terms of physical parts, but significant in terms of the car's performance and feel.

GM engineers have refined the Z06's shock damping characteristics to provide improved handling in the most challenging conditions, while maintaining good ride control for the demands of daily driving.

Continual analysis, development and refinement of the shock valves in particular resulted in more damping control and force, delivered more smoothly. This new tuning is aimed at diminishing the impact of yaw and roll on the car, particularly in quick, transient maneuvers such as "S-turns" or a series of tight corners.

"While the Z06 already had an excellent blend of extreme handling capability and surprising ride quality, we're never satisfied," Hill says. "The enhancements for 2004 provide a bit more poised and smooth response, connecting the car better to the driver's input, without the penalty of ride harshness."

These refinements are a result of extensive testing and development, including several high-speed test sessions at Germany's famed Nurburgring circuit. Corvette Z06 is one of only a precious few cars to have broken the 8-minute barrier for lap times at Nurburgring. Corvette testing at Nurburgring isn't just about raw speed, as the Z06 provides plenty of that. Engineers gathered important learning on tuning the chassis to enhance the poise, confidence and smoothness of response, attributes that are of great importance under the severe demands of a 14-mile course that has approximately 170 turns and virtually constant elevation changes.

"Nurburgring, at the extreme edge of the envelope, provides conditions that can't be easily duplicated anywhere else," says Hill. "But, even for the Z06, we spend considerable time ensuring we don't make adjustments that compromise the normal daily driving character of the car."

[flylwsi]

quote from corvette forum that bloo got the time from...


"The time is correct. Got it from Harlen Charles "Corvette Product mang." at BG this week. 7:56"

[FYRHWK1]

Oh i see. You excuse yourself to the thread-starter, saying you dont want to hijack the thread, and then post in a childish manner knowingly provoking a reaction. Whats that word? Ah yes, hypocrite.

Ah, cute, there's probably a small bit of truth to that but my intent was to set the record straight and then drop the pissing match, which i'm doing now.

I didnt say Chevy are lying, i said im skeptical of what i read because i have every right to be, as manufacturers have every reason to embellish or manufacture a story. Manufacturers lie about performance, fuel consumption, etc etc, on a day-to-day basis. If you want to believe everything you read, thats fine, but i dont. I just find it strange that if Z06's have lapped the ring in 7.56, as Bloo says in his last post (btw Bloo the link doesnt seem to work, but id be interested to read what you found if you can fix the link, thanks), i havent read or heard about it anywhere. Depending on when it achieved 7.56, that may well have been a new lap record, or at least equalled what could have been at the time the 996 GT3's lap record and so would have warranted a mention somewhere.

Of course they embellish, thats how you sell things, they don't however outright lie about timed events, that loses face and makes buyers question everything, it's all about what they can get away with, plausible deniability, they didn't rig anything in this case however.

Well, you wont hear the Z06's laptime from the european community, they're not happy a "pos" chevrolet can lap with their supercars, you didn't hear it from GM for one reason or another, mostly because in america the 'Ring means little to 90% of the buyers, most don't even know where it's located or why it's such a great test of a car. On that note, the GT3 I believe ran int he 7:30's to 7:40s, a far cry from the 7:56 of the vette, I dont think anyones comparing it to that car.

"The enhancements for 2004 are subtle in terms of physical parts, but significant in terms of the car's performance and feel"
Well your holy bible claims the changes arent as insignificant as you like to think. If youre going to quarrel with everything at least get your facts right. Besides, a little tuning can go a long way. I refer you to the Ferrari 575M, a piece of junk standard and a wonderful car with the Fiorano suspension tweaks.

You said it yourself, embellishment, they came out witht he Z06 to boost hardtop sales in 01, in 02 they made engine changes, in 03 they added a few amenities but nothing major, now in 04 they want to boost sales again before the C6 comes out (also to note, it's been said that the BASE C6 will perform with a current Z06, i'm wondering what the C6 Z06 will do) in '05. You think GM will embellish about laptimes which can be disprovenw ith hard fact but wont about the very minor suspension upgrades they made? like i said, it's only shock tuning and a lighter hood in the LMs case.

As to the 575, I'm well aware of its potential, after seeing it right on the C5-Rs tail it's apparent they're very capable cars, I'm fairly sure they're designed for a GT ride stock, it's understandable they're not as nimble as the 360, plus the extra ~1000 lbs.

Vent anger at you? i've nothing against you, i've something against your claiming things as "it's an insult to compare the chevy engineers to the boys in italy" and things to that nature, but i really dont want to get into it, this is about the car as you've said and i'm sticking to that.

[crayzayjay]

cool... we're talking cars again

Without wanting to dwell on this, i believe it’s extremely easy to embellish about a time achieved on a circuit that’s 13 miles long. Much more so than it is to embellish 0-60 times, etc, which can be checked much more easily. After all, it takes a good getaway to post acceleration figures and that’s about it… whereas a 13 mile circuit, there are so many variables, none more important than the driver, the weather conditions etc... that a manufacturer could easily defend its claim with a number of reasons/pretexts…

And youre wrong in saying that European car magazines wouldn’t write about a “pos corvette” lapping with their supercars because the performance version of the Cadillac CTS has had a lot of coverage over here, many journos are praising it, and one wrote that it matched the M3’s time around the ‘ring, which earned it many good words… like I said, that’s why im surprised ive never read about the Z06, because breaking the 8 minute barrier is definitely something and i saw diddly squat…

[BlOOe46]

will u not take the 7:56 lap time for what it is? so the CTS-V is earning words, is it? well, if u havent heard already (from all those "words" u were hearing, none of which about the z06) the CTS-V is using the LS6 from the z06, yet is at least 7-800 lbs heavier and has nowhere near the agility and nimbleness of the z06's suspension setup . . . so if this car is earning times similar to the e46 M3 i see no reason why in a capable driver's hands a z06 would not meet or surpass this holy 8min barrier

we already had the variable discussion in the z06 vs modena thread, and when i brought all the different variables in (even key ones such as the driver) i was quickly dismissed . . . (as i remember) because GM was doing extensive testing at the 'ring for the CTS-V and the z06 (merely shock dampening) and must've had a very experienced driver due to all the testing involved

can u explain to me ur reasoning as to why u think there is a mass conspiracy within GM to fabricate a time under 8 minutes on the 'ring? what do they have to gain besides credibility from the europeans? (which obviously they don't seem to be getting) . . . do u think the average american joe schmoe uses his vette for anything other then stoplight racing? the majority of americans could care less about a roadcourse in europe . . . the only real popular motorsports here are NASCAR and the NHRA drags (oh and lets not forget monstertrucks)

sigh . . .

[FYRHWK1]

in crazyjay's defense, I'm believing that he's saying it's POSSIBLE they embellished the time, personally I'm not 100% positive as too what circumstances they're saying the 7:56 run was, i'm perfectly willing to believe it was a full lap on stock tires with no tuning, but that may not be the case, for now i'll assume that it was a full lap because of the comparative times. I say this only because the cadillac seville has been said to outhandle comparative 540s, only the seville has been given R compound slicks in order to do so, it actually DID outhandle it but thats obviously not a fair comparison.

Strange how the CTS is getting more attention over there then it is here, htough its sales figures are pretty good, highest in the class for now.

[BlOOe46]

Originally posted by FYRHWK1
Strange how the CTS is getting more attention over there then it is here, htough its sales figures are pretty good, highest in the class for now.

actually we are discussing the CTS-V (cadillac's new high performance brand to battle the germans . . . ///M, AMG, //S, etc.) which is esentially a cts with an ls6, 6spd, brake upgrades, and i believe some shock dampening (no real major suspension work)