Junkies 97 RS Rebuild(1st timer!)

Ive got a broken one ;)

hey does anyone know the number to eagle rods? the website is down..it keeps going to this dating service website when i try to go to it.

eaglerod.com

Hey guys, whats this go to? Found it in the gasket kit..have no clue what it goes to. All the other gaskets I was able to match up to something except for like one or two others. Ill post them later, im just curious right now about 3 things.

1)What does that gasket go to

2)How do you get the cam shaft seals off of the cams? they wont fit over the ends(the end without the cam gear)

3)The gasket kit didn't seem to come with an oil pan gasket or a crank seal...is it not supposed to? Do you buy these seperate? That doesn't make sense to me

:sly::lol2:

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6439/p1020105b.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/i/p1020105b.jpg/)

That gasket is not used. That's from the Neon 420a. My last gasket kit I bought had that too.

The cam seals do slide over the ends. Make sure you're using the right ones. It's a snug fit, but they do slide over.

Crank seal? You talking the Rear main seal?

Some kits come with rear main seals and some dont, you can probably just pick one up at advance

Yeah rear main. And thanks for the clarification!

I don't know if you needed ARP main head studs but there's some for sale on mitsumarket.com for $100 brand new. The guy just doesn't need them anymore.

Here's the post
"Up for sale is a Mitsubishi Eclipse 420 ARP Main Stud Kit.
Also applys to the Dodge Neon DOHC/SOHC engine.
Part number: 141-5801
Brand new still in package, only opened box to verify contents.
Retail is $156.63 plus $10.95 Standard Flat Rate Shipping.
I want to sell them for $100.00 that includes shipping.
Thats a savings of $67.58!!"
http://www.mitsu-marketplace.com/showthread.php?t=867

Ok, FINALLY(!!!!) got my cylinder head back today. The rods came in the mail, should get rings next week. Get the block, crank, and bearings sets monday. When I have everything I need, i'll start the assembly. Im confused about few things,if anyone wouldn't mind clearing these up for me, just to double check and make sure i'm right.

1) The guy at the machine shop inspected my pistons, and informed me the wrist pins where so tight that they couldn't be pushed out by hand, and he said they shouldn't be that tight, so he'd bore out the holes a little to make them fit better. Is this normal? I can't help but feel like it's b.s. But if it's normal then i'll let him do it.

2) He also said, for optimum performance, I should bring my 2 new rods, along with my 2 still good ones, and he would weight and balance them, bc "they almost always come a little off". Is this right?(Mind you, this guy is older, and won a national award for 2nd place in the best performance engine building a few years back)

3)There are little dowel rod pieces that look like little cylindrical metal tubes, that stick out of each end of the head. I noticed, that one seemed like it was missing. Ill post pictures and paint on them so you can see what I mean. The guy at the shop said they were important and I have to have them all.

3)

Ok, these boxed in red are on one end, and they seem to be ok, but these are the things im talking about.


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6733/p1020195s.jpg (http://img14.imageshack.us/i/p1020195s.jpg/)

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Ok, the holes in red here didnt seem to have any of the dowels, but I dont htink it ever did. And the box in green, is where I think i'm missing one...am I? How on earth would I find a part like that?



http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6782/p1020197w.jpg (http://img190.imageshack.us/i/p1020197w.jpg/)

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See how it looks like one should go in there? theres a space before the threads start
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3659/p1020198o.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/p1020198o.jpg/)

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Oh, and another thing, I SWEAR I remember this falling out from somewhere when I was messing with the head(getting it off in the first place). I picked it up and saved it. For a while I thought it was the piece that I thought was missing from the head, that I circled up above, but it doesnt fit at all, its slightly bigger than that hole. So now I have no idea what this thing is, which kinda scares me. Does it look important?

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/3196/p1020200.jpg (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/p1020200.jpg/)

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http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/310/p1020202a.jpg (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/p1020202a.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Is this the right one?
http://extremepsi.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=19688&cat=864&page=1

My wristpins were kinda tight also and had to be pressed in. As long as the rods move back and forth easily you will be fine. When I replaced that 1 bent rod I had to actually keep turning the wristpin untill it found that 'sweet' spot where the rod moved easily. I guess you could have them bored very slightly and it wouldn't hurt anything. Also balencing the rotating assembly wouldn't be a bad idea.

There should be 1 dowel on each side like the first pic u posted. You have one there so I wouldn't worry to much about it. Also that link you posted is the wrong part, those are the dowels for the block to head not the head to cam caps.

Ok, well there's one corner that looks like it doesn't have any of them at all. But it also looks like it's not supposed to so..

Guess i'm fine there.

My next question is, I took the cam shafts out of the head with the sprockets still on them. I changed one oil seal pretty easily. The other shaft, I believe the exhaust one, has this magnetic black cap on the end of it, preventing me from being able to slide the oil seal over it. I need to take the sprocket off, but how do I do this without it being in the head? Suggestions are welcome, as I can't seem to get a good enough grip on it to break the bolt loose. Should I reinstall it in the head with the caps just long enough to break the bolt loose?

Have someone hold the cam while you use a breaker bar. I'm sure there's other ways but that's what I did. You can reinstall it back in, but you'll mostly just turn it, even with the springs applying pressure.

Yea you have to hold the gear while you turn the bolt. You may could put the side of the gear in a vice and turn the bolt. Just dont crush it.

Ok, ill try and see if I can figure out something without damaging anything.

Update:

Should be getting my motor and rods and rings back all this week on diff. days. Should be assembling the motor this weekend. Will post if I run into problems, but I dont think I should bc I've already found out everything I didn't understand ahead of time, and I've walked through all the steps, so I should be good.

Held the camshaft in my hands real tight and had someone use an air wrench to pop the bolt loose. Came pretty easily. Got my motor back and all that. Balanced rotating assembly, and now I gotta wait for the rings to come in tom. So im going to go ahead tonight and get the crank in the block at least.


Does anybody know, when the rods go on the crank, which way to the bearing locks need to be facing? I feel like it needs to be a certain way..

Ok so the main bearings laid into the block fine and lined up right. I laid the crank into place, and laid some pieces of plastigauge on the mains journals. Got ready to put the bearings into the bed plate, and they dont fit right. They are the right size, but the little grooves dont line up, like on the bed plate the notch is on the left, and on the bearings the notch is on the right side. Dunno how this happened...guess ill go back to the machine shop.

:sly:

Are you sure you were using the right bearings for that? As long as you got 420a bearings, they'll line up right. I understand what you're talking about with the tabs not being the right way but don't understand why.

Amnd the bedplate doesn't have a gasket. It has a very fine crosshatching on it so when it gets torqued down to the block it forms a perfect seal. But MAKE SURE that O-ring is between the 2 by the oil filter.

This is a common problem. There is actually 2 different 420a blocks, and thats where the bearing problem comes in. I had the same issue, its not a big deal just get a dremal and grind out the area for the bearing tab to sit in

That's actually exactly what I did, was grind tiny notches in the bedplate journals so theyd fit in. Problem solved.


Dave, make sure the o-rings are where now? Im not sure I understand where your talking about

I'll try to take a pic for you when I go to the garage where my spare block is. It goes between the bedplate and the block. It's the only place that looks like something can go. Right by the oil filter. I believe its the red o-ring that goes there.

Hey which way do the rod journal locks face? front of the engine?

And also, I can re use my arp head bolts right? I read somewhere, although I may have read it wrong, that you can't re-use them. Is that bs?

You can resuse them forever

rods locks towards the exhaust sidE?


:smokin:

I dont think it matters. Just put them all the same way

Ok. I put them facing the exhaust side. Got the cylinder head on. Gonna torque them to 20, then to 40, then to 86. I think this is accurate. Its what the guy told me at the machine shop, and I found the same information online. Ill have the motor assembled by the end of the night.

:rofl:

Dammit! :banghead:

One of the cam cap bolts broke... snapped right in half. Now not only do I not really know how to get a stuck piece of bolt out, I also cant find ANY PLACE a set of replacement bolts for this. Do they have to be the exact ones that go in there or could I get an equivalent bolt from the hardware store? Does it matter? Also, tips on how to get out a stuck broken off bolt would be nice lol.

Also, the lip that goes around the edge of the crank sprocket, a piece of it broke off. so now im pretty sure I need to go ahead and replace that. Also cant find it anywhere online.


:headshake

ALSO, while whoever is having fun answering these questions, i also have a few more about the water pump.

I have looked this entire book through several times. There is literally nothing about installing the water pump. Therefore I dont know what to torgue the little bolts to, nor do I know if there needs to be any kind of sealant. Theres is big oddly shaped rubber ring seal that goes in there, but I have no idea if im supposed to put sealant in. Torque amount? Sealant?

I've broken numerous cam cap bolts. Had to retap one of the threads in the head, the other ones I was able to get the other half of the bolt out without any work. You can use regular bolts. I have I believe 8 of them in my head that have been replaced. Not sure on the size... maybe M8. Those stock bolts are old and cheap.

My lip on the crank sprocket is completely gone. The belt wont fall off or anything. Just hared to find TDC without the arrow sometimes lol. Sand down the edge where it broke though so it's not sharp.

For the water pump I took some copper sealer and put around the edges just outside the gasket. I don't remember if/what I torqued the bolts to. I think I did them all finger tight first, then to 14 in/lb

Good luck!!!

In the Tech Articles there is this thread... very useful info on torque specs (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=634393)

Seal the water pump and just tighten it down good. You dont really need to torque that kind of stuff. I have also broken several cam caps bolts and was able to get all of them out fairly easily, just get a new bolt from the hardware store and you will be good to go. I actually think they are M6 bolts.

One of the water pump mount bolts broke off...i used a bolt from my bolt kit. I hope thats ok, bc the bolt that broke was stamped 9.8, and the bolt i replaced it with was stamped 8.8...

Just different grade. I used all new hardware on my water and oil pump. 8 grade bolts bend... 9 grade just break. There's not enough pressure on those bolts to really make a difference

Ok, ill replace them all then. Guess Id rather them bend than snap off completely lol. Gotta take the head to a friend tom. to remove the broken bolt with a welder.

Still cant get the broken cam cap bolt out. Tried using an easy out-guess what- it broke. Now im gonna take the head back to the machine shop and see if he can do it. Which means i had to take hte head bolts loose, and the timing assembly off...


:banghead:

Head bolts are reusbale.

Why didn't you just drill and retap?

Well, I drilled into it, then used the ez out, bc i hadnt even turned the bolt in there that far when it broke, so I figured an easy out would get it fine. Well when that broke, I tried drilling again, which I knew would be a slim chance fo working. So I took the head to the machine shop, and the guy welded a nut to the broken bolt, got it out like the first try....took about a minute...

So, on my list of things I would like to have this christmas is as follows:

electric impact wrench
vise
set of taps
portable welder

These are all things Ive had to borrow in my quest for a rebuilt motor. But, Ive learned a lot so far, and thats what counts.

Since the first cam cap bolt I even tried to put back in snapped right off with little torque applied to it, I went to a place here called fastenal that sells bolts of every kind. Got a whole bag of bolts so Im gonna replace all the cam cap bolts and not have to worry about it at all. Since im using the moly based arp lube(the fancy stuff aka the fancy sauce) on the cam cap bolt threads, im not gonna torque them exactly as tight as alldata or the book calls for. The machine hsop guy advised that I tighten them a little less than what the specs call for since im using that stuff on it.

Anyways, full steam ahead.

:lol2:

Not sure why you would have to torque them less with that lube on them. As long as it's down it should be good though. Glad you're moving forward.

Well I dont know much about it but something about the way that stuff works on the threads, like...i know if you use like motor oil or something on the head bolts then you torque them to like 106 or something...but if you use that moly lube from arp then you only torque them to 86...the guy at the shop told me this and I confirmed it on arp's website...something about friction and load

When your torqing bolts as you start to pull on the threads the friction between the metals also tries to keep the bolt from turning as well. If you use better lube the friction is decreased and requires less torque to over come this force.

Fastenal is a great place, thats where I got my bolt to replace a few of my cam cap bolts. They were the exact same dimesions. Should have replaced all of them but didn't since it was the last bolt I was tightening was the one I broke.

Yeah that's what I meant to say lol.

The guy at fastenal gave me some great bolts to replace them with. Boguth a bag of them, like 75 of them, for like 11 bucks lol. At least Ill have spares

Well, I put the timing belt ont he way I thought I was supposed to, according to the directions. I tightened everything up, rotated the crank 3 or 4 times completely, and all the timing marks lined up exactly they way they are sposed to. I guess this means its in time correctly?

Trying to figure why the spark plugs i ordered where so huge they wont even fit in the plug wells...
:sly:

Guess ill go to advance and get the best thing they have..

The plugs that were in it were all gapped to .40. Is this right for the new plugs?

Do .28 for the plugs.

:sly:

Guess ill go to advance and get the best thing they have..


I wouldnt run anything fancy, no iridium or anything like that. I'd get just a standard NGK copper plug. Probably want to go a couple heat ranges colder. Dave or Jason can probably give you a part number.

That would be excellent, bc I need to know just that lol

Oh and another thing..the bolts i got for the cam cap bolts have heads on them that you have to use like an allen wrench to tighten them, so I couldnt torque them down...so I se tthem to tight, then just a tr turn past that...should be ok, everything turns fine. If this is bad somebody tell me lol. Guy at the shop told me I could do this though and be ok

NGK BPR7ES plugs is the part number I think. But you might wanna double check.BTW I love these plugs.

Don't know the plugs off the top of my head. All the model numbers changed lately so I don't know what things are anymore.

But NGK coppers will do you fine.

Technically with the cam bolts, you can buy the proper size allen size as a socket and then use the torque wrench to get it right... but you should be good. Make sure they're tight, but not overly tight. You'll be fine.

Ok, I tightened them all evenly a little past tight. The motors fully assembled and ready to go in the car. When I get it on the hoist ill put the flexplate/clutch on and then try to slide it in. From what I remember either jason or dave telling me, its best to try to jack up under the trans and get it angled and sticking up in the air a little, and then try to slide the shaft in.

:cool:


Ohh and im ordering a megasquirt kit tom. Do I need to get anything to go with it? They have like accessories on the site, didnt know if I needed anything special, or just the kit alone

Gotta few questions...

I took the old throw out bearing off, it had a broken little clip on the back...

While the car was still working, it had a constant tick only when the clutch pedal was out(like your foot not touching it) and when ud press the clutch pedal in it would stop completely. Everyone told me it was "probably the tob".

Would that broken clip have anything to do with the knocking noise? Because I was trying to get the new tob i have ont he shaft correctly, which also btw doesnt make sense to me bc i know its supposed to like click in but I just dont trust it. Like, it doesnt look like ot me those little clips even hold it on to anything...its like loose on the clutch fork..is that how its supposed to be? Do I need to grease or lube anything around or on the imput shaft when this all goes together?

Not too sure about the TOB on a 420a. But I always put just a dab, not much, of axle grease on the input shaft. Just so the clutch disc has a tab of lubrication.
And your cam bolts.....I would definatley make sure they are torqued to spec with a torque wrench. I would not chance it tightening it by hand. Like dave said, you can buy sockets that have the allen head on them and use that on the torque wrench.

Ya jack the trans up so it's angled. Make it much easier.

Not sure about the ticking noise... but could have contributed to it. To me, I thought the TOB and clutch fork look/seem/feel cheap. You just slide the TOB on the shaft, and put the clutch fork around the 2 tabs. Hell I did that with the motor and trans together in the car... beat that!

But it will be loose on there until everything is all mounted together. The slave cylinder pushes the fork and TOB against the pressure plate. Thing will be solid when assembled.

Aggreed with VG... very little bit of greese on the shaft.

You got the TOB on with the trans still bolted up? How on earth did you do that..lol or maybe I read that wrong. Ok im convinced that I am gonna get that bit and torque the cam cap bolts down properly. Lol. If I have my shit together tonight i'll try to get the motor in

I had the TOB on the shaft, but the fork wasn't on the pivot point. So I unbolted the motor from the trans as much as possible right before they disconnect and then it took me 25 minutes looking through the little rubber piece where the fork goes into the trans, trying to get the TOB on the fork, while popping it onto the pivot point. Fun.

Much easier when the motor isn't in there yet lol. Make sure it's all good.

Oh and about MegaSquirt. Which one are you getting? What site are you buying it from? Most models you need a specific IAT and CLT sensor that works with MS. Super easy to install them and wiring is then pretty easy too.