A new noise coming from engine compartment

Hi guys it's me... again!

This thing can't seem to give me a break LOL.

We have been using 15w40 oil for years and never had a problem. I know it's too thick for these engines but we don't get such low temperature as people up north. Right now temps are between 70-86, it's been rainy and during winter it will get as low as 32 in the morning...

So you'll see, I decided it was time to change the oil, it was a bit over due, and decided to switch to 5w30 to see if there was any difference and to make the things the right way from now and on; well, there is actually a BIG difference, the engine isn't as loud as before, and the new fluid and filter (both motorcraft) made a tapping sound I had on cold starts go away, after many years with it!.

It idles great, runs quieter and has a 30% better fuel economy. What else coud somebody ask? This is where the ugly part comes. I don't know if I hadn't noticed before because the engine was noisier or what, but now I can hear a "weird" sound, sorry that I don't know how would you guys describe it,
at HOT idle, it seems to go away if I rev the engine (again, I don't know if the louder it's actually masking it rather than making it go away). It's running OK, hasn't taken any oil and there is no smoke coming out from the tailpipe; as I said the noise is only present after the engine has reached normal temperature.

I don't have much experience with these things, I don't know if it could be a lifter, a valve, rings, timing chain or what else!. I only get some occasional misfires and the LTFT for bank 1 goes up to +18 from time to time.

Here's a video of the noise; it seems more noticeable at the passenger side where the serpentine belt is.

http://youtu.be/Fp8FhPL3w2U

Anybody thinks this could be an exhaust leak? I've noticed that after the transmission was rebuilt, it will make a LOUD clicking sound minutes after I turn off the engine because of the exhaust pipes expanding/contracting.

Thanks in advance,

Oscar.

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UPDATE September 11 2015

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Skip all the diagnosing and go straight to the upper intake manifold. Remove it and, if you have the old 3 part version (upper and lower covers, and a baffle), take off the middle baffle, reassemble and test to see if the noise is gone. That's what solved my problem.

There's a redesigned (one piece) part from Dorman (615-277), get that.

Things I replaced to no avail:

Timing chain and tensioner
Camshaft synchronizer
Water pump
Belt tensioner

I hope this helps,

Oscar.

I would think an engine in good repair would run fairly quietly on 15w40 ... especially in a hot climate. I have used 0w40, and 5w40 ... from time to time, in hot weather, especially on round-country trips ... in my '99 3.8. I normally use 5w30 at other times. But have had no detectable noise issues due to oil grades.

You may have some issues with your oil pump or pick-up tube. I would be tempted to drop the oil pan and have look. The oil pick up tube may be blocked ... or it may be loose at the mounting, allowing cavitation air to leak in. The oil pump and pressure relief valve are on/in the front cover.

Could the scynchronizer be noisy? May need some drops of oil.

For some reason, I can't make the Youtube site work ... some internet setting screwed up, I suppose.

Thank you 12Ounce, always good to read your advise.

Well, it's not that the engine is very noisy, it isn't; I would say it's a normal healthy sounding engine but there is a noticeable difference between 15w40 and 5w30 weight.

Synchronizer? Is that the one by the IMRC actuator? I used to think that one would squeal. That's not my case, I'm having a hard time trying to describe the noise, but I would say it MIGHT be a "tapping" sound just to give an idea. I never noticed before switching to 5w30.

Too bad you can't take a look at the video...

Oscar.

To mee he video seems low in volume even withn all settings at highest level so it makes it hard to tell, but to me it seems to be a tappet noise, Have you checked oil pressure with a gauge?

OK, I got my browser add-ons back working. And I listened to your "noise" ... not much, I would say.

Howabout removing the serpertine belt and listen again. Don't run it very long that way ... may need to play garden hose on radiator, if you are going to have it on over a minute or so. Watch temps!

To me it sounds like a noisy belt and tensioner. ... but it could also be a noisy chain.

Thank you tempfixit, I've uploaded a new video; I hope this is a better one. I had the cellphone facing in the opposite direction, it seems better to me. I don't have a gauge for oil pressure nor have someone that I could borrow it from. Autozone doesn't rents those around here. Where should the tester be plugged in at?

Thanks again 12Ounce. I will check the tensioner for wobble during operation and remove the belt when the engine is at operating temperature. When I changed the belt around 11k miles ago, the tensioner felt strong but I guess its worth a look. If the engine is cold, there is NO noise other than normal operation.

Here's a second video:
http://youtu.be/19EaaVheFfA

During the louder moment I held the cellphone in the passenger side wheel well.

Oscar.

Well, as the engine warms ... the thermostat opens up and the coolant pump is more active. Could it be the coolant pump?

I can hear the noise better on this video Oscar, if removing the serpentine belt at operating temp does not eliminate the noise I would remove the oil pressure sending unit and use its port for oil pressure gauge. I would observe the oil pressure from cold to normal operating temp to see if the oil pressurefalls off dramatically, hopefully that is not the case.

Thank you very much guys, it's always good to know you're willing to help!

I didn't drive the windstar today, but will do the test with the serpentine belt ASAP and post back.

12Ounce Would a coolant pump show any other symptoms other than being noisy? Wouldn't it be more like a bad bearing noise?

tempfixit I was thinking that a lower volume or pressure of engine oil (failing/starving pump) would cause the temperature to raise due to bad lubrication and increased friction. Is this assumption correct or not?. My cheap livedata scanner shows the ECT is at around 185 F. Am I running in circles?

Oscar.

There's no gaurantee how a water pump may fail. I've seen the impeller disappear due to poor coolant chemistry (caused by using clear water). Of course they often leak. The bearings can get noisey and wobbly. But I've heard of the impeller shaft snapping in two without much warning. So who knows?

There's no gaurantee how a water pump may fail. I've seen the impeller disappear due to poor coolant chemistry (caused by using clear water). Of course they often leak. The bearings can get noisey and wobbly. But I've heard of the impeller shaft snapping in two without much warning. So who knows?

Ah you're right man. In fact this engine overheated back in 2005 after the impeller disappeared, just like you said. We rebuilt it, installed it and overheated a few weeks later because there was still some air trapped in the system; so that makes TWO rebuilds for this engine...

If I remember right, the replacement water pump had a plastic impeller.

Today I got home and as usual the noise was present, I removed the serpentine belt as fast as I could (I hate such task with this engine), took me 10 minutes maybe and started the engine for a few seconds... The noise was gone; I thought I had found the problem so I reinstalled the belt to see if it would reappear but no, it didn't, even when the engine was still at normal temp. How much it could have cooled down in only a couple of minutes?

Now I'm at loss. I don't know what else to check. As I said before, the van drives fine and has plenty of power. I shot another video just after I reinstalled the serpentine belt. As you can see it sounds pretty healty, at least for me.


http://youtu.be/05A3M9MJNHo

What do you guys think?

Oscar.

I just set the parking brake, lift the hood and pull the belt off the closest puilley (alternator?) ... one advantage of Popeye arms. 15 secs max.

Did you check all pulleys to see how they feelth? (Is that a word?)

Have you tried running without a thermostat?

12oz beat me to it. Especially the tensioner and idler pulleys, did you spin them by hand? Our van had a similar noise when the tensioner was on it's way out.

Thank you guys,

I just set the parking brake, lift the hood and pull the belt off the closest puilley (alternator?) ... one advantage of Popeye arms. 15 secs max.

Did you check all pulleys to see how they feelth? (Is that a word?)

Have you tried running without a thermostat?

Haha, yeah I know. I was able to do that two years ago when I still used to workout, haven't been able to since then. Yesterday I tried to do it, but wasn't able to pull the belt enough to clear the alternator pulley. Had to turn the wheels to the right and reach the tensioner with a 13mm wrench.

Haven't tried running without thermostat. I've been wanting to change the coolant and flush the system, but haven't had enough time to do it. That' still a pending task...

12oz beat me to it. Especially the tensioner and idler pulleys, did you spin them by hand? Our van had a similar noise when the tensioner was on it's way out.

Both, tensioner and idler pulleys were replaced two years ago. Don't think they could be bad already and honestly I didn't spin them by hand this time, but I'll give it a try.

Scubacat, do you mean the spring inside the tensioner was worn and the tensioner was wobbly? Or just referring to the pulley?.

Oscar.

Scubacat, do you mean the spring inside the tensioner was worn and the tensioner was wobbly? Or just referring to the pulley?.


In my case I'm fairly sure pretty sure it was the spring; I just put on an entire new tensioner and idler as long as I had the belt off. (With the kind of luck I have, I'd replace the tensioner pulley and then the spring would go a month later.)

Oscar to me it sounds like a bearing is bad on the tensioner or idler pulley.

Thank you very much guys! I appreciate it.

So today I got home and the noise is still present, I took a look at the pulleys while idling and didn't see anything out of the usual, serpentine belt looked good (somebody else suggested it might be out of track, unlikely since it's been working fine) and the tensioner didn't move at RPM's:

Idling at 715~720 - noise was present
Slightly stepping on the gas RPM's ~750+ - noise is completely gone until RPM's drop back to idle speed.


In my case I'm fairly sure pretty sure it was the spring; I just put on an entire new tensioner and idler as long as I had the belt off. (With the kind of luck I have, I'd replace the tensioner pulley and then the spring would go a month later.)

LOL, I have the exact same kind of luck my friend!, perhaps even worse than yours :tongue: . Was it hard to replace the tensioner with such a tight work space?

Oscar to me it sounds like a bearing is bad on the tensioner or idler pulley.

I remember when the bearing in the tensioner pulley on my Pontiac started to fail, it would make a very different noise, more like a constant "brushing" noise; that's why I didn't think about it at first and I find it a bit odd for the pulleys to be the problem, specially since they were replaced not long ago, but I might just give it a try; pulleys are cheap after all.

I still keep the old pulleys somewhere, I might just install them and see if the problem goes away!.

Would the noise going away under acceleration rule out a valvetrain problem? I'm scared to hell about it!

Oscar.

I honestly didn't have too much trouble replacing the tensioner. "Tight work space" is relative. My other car is a 2002 Camry V6 and that thing has some *seriously* tight work space.

You can use one of these to make it even easier although I don't have one, myself. They're in the autozone tool rental program, as well.

http://www.harborfreight.com/serpentine-belt-tool-kit-66344.html

Thank you scubacat,

I haven't had enough time to take a look; today I kept searching the old pulleys in my "storage" room but did not find them. I guess I'll just have to buy a new set and see if they make any difference. I'll try rotating them by hand before I get new ones maybe I will be able to find out if one of them is bad...

Today I found a thread (another vehicle) in which the poster has a ticking noise (same symptoms) which turned out to be caused by the EVAP solenoid. Has anyone ever heard of a similar story?

Please feel free to post any other comments, I would like to have as many ideas as possible. I'll appreciate any comments.

Oscar.

I honestly didn't have too much trouble replacing the tensioner. "Tight work space" is relative.

How did you get the $#&?%?% top bolt back in?

How did you get the $#&?%?% top bolt back in?

Reach down from above.

Hi guys,

I just finished checking the pulleys. I had some time to spare today. The tensioner pulley is definitely bad; it has the classic grinding noise caused by a bad bearing.

This will be the second time I replace it and I swear I used a Gates replacement the first time; looks like I found the needle in the haystack with that replacement LOL.

Anyway, I'll replace it and let you guys know if it solves the problem. Thank you very much for your time and help.

Oscar.

I'd still swap the entire tensioner, myself, but then again I doubt your luck is as bad as mine!

There's also a chance that the tensioner spring failing could put uneven and heavier than normal stress on the pulley causing it to fail prematurely. That is just a theory that came to mind now but that's the way I think anyway. Plus, if you replace just the pulley and find out the tensioner is going, you'll end up replacing the pulley yet again anyway!

BTW - that pulley should be warrantied if you bought it at your local auto parts store.

FYI: Regarding oil choice.... multi-weight oil (i.e. 5W30, 10W40) is specified for less variation of the viscosity (thickness or "weight") over the termperature range of operation than single weight oil (i.e. SAE 30). The first number is the equivalent viscosity when cold, the second is the viscosity when hot.

A 10W40 at cold temperatures is equivalent to SAE 10 oil at the same temperatures, which means that it pours more easily than SAE40 would. On the other hand, when hot (i.e operating temperature of the engine) it pours like SAE 40 would at that temperature.

I've read that the chemicals used to "even out" the viscosity are largely responsisble for engine "sludge" (the tars that form in old motor oil). The wider the range of the oil, the more of these chemicals are used, and the more sludge is formed. For this reason it is better to use (when temperature permits) multi-weight oil with a higher cold viscosity. For example, if 5W30 is specified for use in winter conditions, then 10W30 might be used in summer, or 20W30 in a hot climate. Note that there is no reason to use a higher HOT viscosity oil in a normal engine. This is because the engine always operates within a few degrees of the thermostat temperature no matter what the weather is. I suppose there could be a condition where the engine runs too hot b/c of high ambient temperature, but this suggests that the cooling system is undersized for these conditions and steps should be taken to address the lack of cooling. Using a heavy weight oil in these circuimstances might be a temporary solution to the problem.

I've used 10W40 in my Windstar engine, but only after I noticed that the oil pressure was dropping from my >300,000 miles of engine wear. Otherwise, I'd recommend always using a maximum oil viscosity of 30.

I'd still swap the entire tensioner, myself, but then again I doubt your luck is as bad as mine!

There's also a chance that the tensioner spring failing could put uneven and heavier than normal stress on the pulley causing it to fail prematurely. That is just a theory that came to mind now but that's the way I think anyway. Plus, if you replace just the pulley and find out the tensioner is going, you'll end up replacing the pulley yet again anyway!

BTW - that pulley should be warrantied if you bought it at your local auto parts store.

Thanks scubacat, I couldn't find the old pulleys but I did find the receipt of the store I bought both, tensioner and idler, pulleys from. It turns out the idler pulley is indeed Gates but the tensioner one is a generic crappy store brand labeled as "gates direct replacement". The good thing is that I didn't pay the full price of what a gates would cost... I'll keep an eye on the tensioner. I've seen it while the engine is running and there is no play at all, not even a slight vibration so I guess it's OK by now. The amount of effort required to move it is quite considerable. It might just be the small 13mm box end wrench that I'm using but I would say it requires more effort than the tensioner in my Lincoln and Pontiac.

I remember perhaps you or somebody else suggested me to get the serpentine belt replacement tool some time ago, but I didn't buy one back then. Now that I really wanted to get one, auto zone didn't have it and other stores wanted a crazy amount of money for it so I just skipped it and decided to use the small wrench. I'm cheap... :evillol:

FYI: Regarding oil choice.... multi-weight oil (i.e. 5W30, 10W40) is specified for less variation of the viscosity (thickness or "weight") over the termperature range of operation than single weight oil (i.e. SAE 30). The first number is the equivalent viscosity when cold, the second is the viscosity when hot.

A 10W40 at cold temperatures is equivalent to SAE 10 oil at the same temperatures, which means that it pours more easily than SAE40 would. On the other hand, when hot (i.e operating temperature of the engine) it pours like SAE 40 would at that temperature.

I've read that the chemicals used to "even out" the viscosity are largely responsisble for engine "sludge" (the tars that form in old motor oil). The wider the range of the oil, the more of these chemicals are used, and the more sludge is formed. For this reason it is better to use (when temperature permits) multi-weight oil with a higher cold viscosity. For example, if 5W30 is specified for use in winter conditions, then 10W30 might be used in summer, or 20W30 in a hot climate. Note that there is no reason to use a higher HOT viscosity oil in a normal engine. This is because the engine always operates within a few degrees of the thermostat temperature no matter what the weather is. I suppose there could be a condition where the engine runs too hot b/c of high ambient temperature, but this suggests that the cooling system is undersized for these conditions and steps should be taken to address the lack of cooling. Using a heavy weight oil in these circuimstances might be a temporary solution to the problem.

I've used 10W40 in my Windstar engine, but only after I noticed that the oil pressure was dropping from my >300,000 miles of engine wear. Otherwise, I'd recommend always using a maximum oil viscosity of 30.

Thanks Tom, I knew the basics about oil viscosity already, but your suggestion about using different oil weights is new to me; I'll keep it in mind for future oil changes ;). It's funny that I read something very similar about the sludge created during prolonged oil changes a few days ago. That's definitely something to keep in mind!

So far, I can tell I'm happy with the 5w30. Compared to the usual 15w40, my windstar is getting better fuel economy (22MPG combined) and engine runs quieter.


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I got the new tensioner pulley (Gates 38008) and wanted to install it today, but since the engine was still warm (and metal had expanded), I couldn't get the bolt to clear the body so I'm gonna have to wait until it's completely cold to replace it. I remember it being very simple from the last time!!

Oscar.

I've used 10W40 in my Windstar engine, but only after I noticed that the oil pressure was dropping from my >300,000 miles of engine wear. Otherwise, I'd recommend always using a maximum oil viscosity of 30.

300K miles!!! Wow! That's A LOT! I wouldn't think these engines would last that much. Mine is only 94.8K miles; my pontiac is around 110K miles and my Lincoln is ~188k miles. All of them are still running strong...

My '99 is at 340k miles, plus.

True, the coolant system keeps the engine combustion chamber at approx the same temp in all seasons. But the oil in the sump is heavily impacted by ambient air temperatures ... so there is some reason for seasonal concerns.

I typically use 5w20 or 5w30 for everyday use with many cold-starts in the mix. But if I have a long round-country planned during hot weather ... more miles without start-ups... I will look for some 0w40 or the like.

>But the oil in the sump is heavily impacted by ambient air temperatures ... so there is some reason for seasonal concerns.

I've never actually checked the oil temperature in the sump, but I'll drop a thermocouple in there on a few hot days and a few cold days to see if this bears out. I've always assumed that any cooling effect in normal air temperatures (i.e. 10 F to 100 F) is minimal. I agree that extreme conditions (i.e < 0 F or > 100 F) could warrent a change to the viscosity when hot. I know the owners manual advises accordingly.

So I just finished replacing the pulley. It wouldn't come out; it's very weird since the first time it took me 30 minutes to replace both idler and tensioner pulley and this time I couldn't remove the darn bolt on the tensioner. No clearance at all!.

I ended up removing the entire tensioner; normal people would just replace it but I, being very cheap, decided to just replace the pulley and reinstall it... We'll see how it goes. It wasn't that bad, the upper bolts took me some time and patience (and scrapped forearms) but I did. In the event that I ever need to remove the tensioner again I will definitely get a set of ratcheting box end wrenches, they would really help A LOT.

TO REMOVE THE TENSIONER you don't need to do a lot and all three bolts are 10mm; you can even work without lifting the fornt and removing the right front wheel (although it gives more space). I would strongly advise to loosen all three bolts first and remove the top two only working from above, get your hand behind the steering pump and you can easily reach both bolts; then, working from the underside remove the lower bolt. To get the pulley out of the way I used the 13mm wrench on the pulley along with a 7/8 wrench as an extension and leaned it against the control arm. To reinstall start with the lower bolt and make it snug so the top two holes are lined with their counterparts ont he block.

I'll let you know later today if the new pulley solves the problem. I'm confident it will since the old pulley was so worn that it would make noise just by shaking it; those ball bearings were definitely worn. Thank you crappy autoparts store for selling even crappier parts with confusing fraudulent labels...

Oscar.

WTF where did that last post come from? planetoffice? Darn spammers... Would somebody please delete it?

Anyway... I just got back from test driving it and NOPE, the noise did not go away. It's still there under the same circumstances.

I'm back at square number 1; what would be the next step? I know I already asked, but since the LTFT1 is a bit rich, could it be an exhaust leak causing the noise?

Thanks in advance,

Oscar.

Hey scubacat, when the tensioner went in yours, was it wobbling?

How did you decided it was bad?

Oscar.

So I've been hunting for an oil pressure gauge tester but no store stocks it at the moment and autozone does not have it for rent, that really sucks... I asked a friend if I could borrow his but says it's broken, tell me about bad luck!

I'm kinda getting frustrated about this noise, it makes me really nervous to think that it might be a problem in the valve train, I'm not sure if I could deal with that in the tight space I have.

Anybody thinks this could be a problem with a stuck/collapsed lifter?

I'm also considering the idea of a bad water pump, there's been some rattling noise for some time now in the engine compartment, it also seems to come from the drive belt area; in fact I posted a video about it in the forum some time ago.

I'll give it another try and see if this time I can spot where the noise is coming from with a screwdriver.

Any other thoughts that I could try in the meantime?

Oscar.

A screwdriver sometimes works ... sometimes you need a semi-rigid plastic hose ... I borrow the hose from wife's small vacuum cleaner for this task.

Well, just got back from driving "the nightmare"...

Drove all the way and back with my cheap scanner connected with moderate to heavy traffic and temperature never went above 192F with A/C on and 210 with A/C off. I even left it idling for a while and temp never went higher than that. That surely gives me peace of mind as I now know it's not overheating at all and water pump should be OK.

Here's the IMPORTANT STUFF. I found where the noise is coming from; as soon as I got into the garage I noticed the noise, grabbed the screwdriver and started sticking it at every component within reaching distance... nothing. When I finally crawled under the engine I held the screwdriver against the OIL FILTER ADAPTER and surely THAT'S WHERE THE NOISE COMES FROM. Now I can say it's a CLICKING NOISE.

I don't know what's causing it, but since the oil pump is rotating, it should make something more like a whining/grinding noise; oil pickup screen should cause some similar noise since the oil pump is starving. That leaves me with a noisy anti-drain back valve in the motorcraft oil filter.

I certainly don't know what's causing it, I've never heard of one before. Maybe I just got a defective filter? Im guessing I should just replace it?

Has anybody heard of a similar situation like mine?.

Oscar.

You should certainly try a new filter ... but the noise may be in the primary oil pump check valve/pressure relief valve ... which is built into the front cover. Quite an important little spring loaded affair. Its a wonder that it lasts so long normally.

I replaced the one in my '99 when I gave the engine a light over-all ... just to see what it looked like.

Thanks 12Ounce,

I'll replace the filter. I wonder how hard it was to replace the check valve and what's involved? I'm guessing the oil pump has to come off?

Oscar.

Oscar if the noise does not stop with a new oil filter, (what brand is on now Oscar) could it be possible that the camshaft syncronizer could be bad and the noise is transmitting thru oil pump to filter????

What is your thought oscar and 12Ounce?


Just a thought.

Removing the timing cover is quite a chore on this beast. I really hope that's not your problem!

Oscar if the noise does not stop with a new oil filter, (what brand is on now Oscar) could it be possible that the camshaft syncronizer could be bad and the noise is transmitting thru oil pump to filter????

What is your thought oscar and 12Ounce?


Just a thought.

Thanks tempfixit,

The one currently installed is a Motorcraft filter, bought at the dealer. It's very funny because we've used crappy FRAM filters amongst others and never had a problem and this is the first time I ever use a motorcraft filter and BAM! ticking noise present... Scubacat, definitely you're not the only one with bad luck!

I'm not totally sure but, if the synchro is the thing coming out from the block between the water pump tube and intake manifold, I held the screwdriver against it (thinking of your previous advise) and it doesn't makes any noise. In any case, a bad synchro would be better than the pressure relief valve :iceslolan .

Removing the timing cover is quite a chore on this beast. I really hope that's not your problem!

I googled it and man! If I was scared about a bad water pump, this thing makes me want to go back to kindergarden. I don't know if it's even possible to do it with the engine installed but with such a tight space it would definitely be easier to just remove the entire engine from the vehicle. I really hope it's not the problem.


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Thank you guys!

The noise seems more pronounced towards the oil filter rather than the adapter, so I'm confident a new filter should take care of the problem.

I say it would be too much coincidence to replace the oil and filter, and the relief valve starts to fail; specially when it was working fine the day before and I don't think a different oil viscosity would cause it to fail, at least that's what I think but since I've not much experience I might be wrong.

Oscar.

Oscar harbor frieght has a oil pressure gauge that you could order online, they are fairly cheap.

http://www.harborfreight.com/engine-oil-pressure-test-kit-98949.html

Hey scubacat, when the tensioner went in yours, was it wobbling?

Not sure if scubacat replied to this but fwiw when the tensioner in my van started to go bad it began by making bearing noises occasionally but at first it, or more specifically its pulley, did not wobble. When the noise became permanent the pulley shook and wobbled all the time, at which point I replaced the tensioner, after which the noise and wobbling vanished.

The noise is more of a rattle but also has squeal undertones, it was extremely annoying.

IIRC, the pressure relief valve is captured by the oil pump housing which is bolted against the front cover. In theory, the front cover does not have to be removed ... just the oil pump. But I'm not sure that removing the pressure relief valve is possible with the liimited work space ... it may be possible, but I had mine on the work bench.

Removing the entire front cover with the engine in place is indeed a task! I've done it but I would not wish it on anyone!

Oscar harbor frieght has a oil pressure gauge that you could order online, they are fairly cheap.

http://www.harborfreight.com/engine-oil-pressure-test-kit-98949.html

Thanks man, I might order one along with other things; unfortunately I have no idea how much I'll have to wait until it's shipped and passes through our customs agency to be finally delivered at home. A guy in Sears told me he might be able to order one for me from the warehouse, I'll see what he has to say before I order anything from harbor freight.

Not sure if scubacat replied to this but fwiw when the tensioner in my van started to go bad it began by making bearing noises occasionally but at first it, or more specifically its pulley, did not wobble. When the noise became permanent the pulley shook and wobbled all the time, at which point I replaced the tensioner, after which the noise and wobbling vanished.

The noise is more of a rattle but also has squeal undertones, it was extremely annoying.

Thanks, well I had the bearing noise (before the first pulley replacement) but no squealing and the serpentine belt does not seems to loose tension while the engine is turning. Don't know if the spring can go bad before there is any noticeable movement.

IIRC, the pressure relief valve is captured by the oil pump housing which is bolted against the front cover. In theory, the front cover does not have to be removed ... just the oil pump. But I'm not sure that removing the pressure relief valve is possible with the liimited work space ... it may be possible, but I had mine on the work bench.

Removing the entire front cover with the engine in place is indeed a task! I've done it but I would not wish it on anyone!

Thanks 12Ounce, the Ford manual I have lists the oil pump as being serviceable while in vehicle; have no idea about the valve, can't find it listed in it. However, servicing the oil filter is tight, I can't imagine how it will be to remove the pump...


*******

So, I installed a new filter and took it for a test drive but no, the noise did not go away; after some time (~40 minutes) the noise came back and, as before, it's only noticeable at idle and close to the oil filter adapter.

Any other ideas guys?, I'm ready to set this thing on fire...

Oscar.

Ok, I've been reading some more and I'm thinking tempfixit's might be onto something with the bad synchro idea; Tempfixit, even when you actually mentioned it, I didn't know it was directly connected to the oil pump; that's why I didn't think it could be the problem.

I'll try searching more info, but would still like to ask what symptoms could a bad camshaft synchronizer cause? I've been noticing the engine will misfire from time to time at idle while in gear (I already cleaned IAC); engine died on me once while waiting at a red light without notice; I also get an occasional rattling noise that also goes away with RPM's, I kept tracing it but could only narrow it to the area around the PS and water pumps, synchro sits between both!. Could all/some of these be caused by the synchro?

Oscar.

What?? You're back to the synchronizer!! .... that was the first suggenstion you got ... back on page one!!

(Just kidding ya... mysteries abound in problem solving!)

If you can remove the sensor and get a few drops of oil down in that thing, ... it will really change how it works .... if its the problem to start with.

Yeah I know man! I'm sorry. I was so narrow minded about the noise being a valvetrain/drivebelt problem that I almost completely ruled out everything else. Besides, I used to know the synchro would make more like a squealing noise; at least those were the stories I've seen posted in the forum, never a tapping/ticking like noise.

Was until I read that the synchro is directly connected to the oil pump shaft; at first I couldn't understand tempfixit's idea until now! I don't know what could cause it to tap but might definitely try putting some oil in it.

So, do you think a bad synchro could be causing the symptoms I wrote in my previous post?.

I still have too much to learn about this engine, the memories from us rebuilding it are way too blurry to take into account LOL.

I appreciate all of your comments 12Ounce and everyone else; I'd be having a hard time without this forum and you guys.

Oscar.

Thanks, well I had the bearing noise (before the first pulley replacement) but no squealing and the serpentine belt does not seems to loose tension while the engine is turning. Don't know if the spring can go bad before there is any noticeable movement.

I wouldn't think so, when I had the wobbling I noticed no vertical movement indicative of spring failure, just the pulley shaking with its shaft moving back and forth horizontally. Also when I took the old tensioner out I released the spring and examined the tensioner, it appeared do be under full tension. The pulley however, was obviously shot. It would spin freely like a bike wheel when normally there should be some measure of resistance from bearing lubricant. No resistance = no lubricant = no good

I'm just jerking you around ... noises/leaks/vibrations/electric-problems can be so difficult to find and fix. I'm sure the recycle yards are full of vehicles that had easy-to-fix issues .... that no one could find. We've all been there.

I personally would now guess the problem is not the scychronizer ... but who knows? It would certainly be good maintenance to drop some oil into it.

Hi Oscar. Bad synchro doesn't make this sound. It actually makes a high pitched squeaky metallic noise, similar one as worn drum brakes shoes noise when you hit the brakes or same as bad quality hamster wheel. So it's not that.

For me it sound like a worn timing chain like other suggest cause it's the caracteristic of a steady rattling noise of a bad timing chain.

But it could also be a noisy valve lifter or valve. In these cases I suggest you to switch back to 15W40. It's, normally, not the recommanded oil grade for this engine, EXCEPT when you have a sticky valve lifter, valve or worn timing chain it can cure the noise.

But I suggest you before to have it inspected in a garage with a sthetoscope to better diagnose the problem. A broken timing chain will make destroy the engine. Heavier oil will not prevent the chain to fail, but it'll make it last longer.
If it's the lifter, you don't have to replace them, just switch your oil grade. Unless if the heavier oil doesn't fix the noise issue.
I think it's more the chain because I don't ear tapping, only rattling.


The same noise could be caused by the water pump, but if it was the case it'll not be affected by the temp and it'll be a coincidance if it appears after you switch oil grade.

And when you remove the belt and but it back, I still ear the noise even if sound is lower in intensity. So if it's the same noise when you remove belt and put it back, it eliminate the water pump completely.

I also noticed that even when you rev up, the noise is still there. Maybe you don't ear it because the engine noise cover the sound, but it still there.

How much mileage do you have on your engine? In my Taurus with 3.0L OHV engine, I had have replaced the timing chain at 92,000 miles cause it was a little bit loose, even it didn't make any noise and running fine.

I wouldn't think so, when I had the wobbling I noticed no vertical movement indicative of spring failure, just the pulley shaking with its shaft moving back and forth horizontally. Also when I took the old tensioner out I released the spring and examined the tensioner, it appeared do be under full tension. The pulley however, was obviously shot. It would spin freely like a bike wheel when normally there should be some measure of resistance from bearing lubricant. No resistance = no lubricant = no good

Thanks man, yeah, that's what the tensioner pulley was like at both times; the second time was even worse, that crappy replacement could have caused something more serious, when I took it out it was like a baby rattle.

I'm just jerking you around ... noises/leaks/vibrations/electric-problems can be so difficult to find and fix. I'm sure the recycle yards are full of vehicles that had easy-to-fix issues .... that no one could find. We've all been there.

I personally would now guess the problem is not the scychronizer ... but who knows? It would certainly be good maintenance to drop some oil into it.

Thank you very much. I'm not in the mood right know but will certainly drop some oil in there. I'm getting tired of having to deal with this Windstar. I remember when we used to go on long trips in our 1985 Ford E-150, man that's a bullet proof van. We still have it, unfortunately has been sitting for too long because we don't have enough space at home. Leaving cars out in the street is not an option with such "great" neighbors.

Hi Oscar. Bad synchro doesn't make this sound. It actually makes a high pitched squeaky metallic noise, similar one as worn drum brakes shoes noise when you hit the brakes or same as bad quality hamster wheel. So it's not that.

Hi serge, I really appreciate your response. Noise problems are certainly a nightmare, specially when everyone has a different definition for each sound LOL. When I "metallic clicking noise" I was expecting it could be it.


For me it sound like a worn timing chain like other suggest cause it's the caracteristic of a steady rattling noise of a bad timing belt.

I definitely don't like the sound of that. Other than the noise, are there any other symptoms that could either confirm it or rule it out? I wonder why it would start after switching between oil weights. If that's the case I guess I'll really have to think about the future of this thing...

Just to clarify, are you talking about the rattling noise in the third video? I have tried to pinpoint that one since 2010 with no success. That noise happens only at warm idle from time to time, specially when there is electrical load on the engine (electric fans, windows reaching the end of their race, etc.) . I have an old thread about it HERE (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1071289) .


But it could also be a noisy valve lifter or valve. In these cases I suggest you to switch back to 15W40. It's, normally, not the recommanded oil grade for this engine, EXCEPT when you have a sticky valve lifter, valve or worn timing belt it can cure the noise.

That would be great. I hadn't think about it and don't know if it could help the "diagnostic" but, before the oil change I had the classic tapping noise caused by loss of oil pressure overnight with crappy oil filters. It would start with a cold engine and go away after a some minutes. It changed with RPM's.

Could this have contributed to worn lifters and evolved into the current problem?


But I suggest you before to have it inspected in a garage with a sthetoscope to better diagnose the problem. A broken timing chain will make destroy the engine. Heavier oil will not prevent the chain to fail, but it'll make it last longer.
If it's the lifter, you don't have to replace them, just switch your oil grade.

I bought a craftsman's yesterday and tried to pinpoint the noise but couldn't succeed. I might say it seems to be coming from the block and several inches under the synchro, maybe towards the idler pulley. I'll try to confirm it the next time.

Listening to valve lifters would require me to put the stethoscope ON the valve covers right? Reaching the rear cover will be a challenge... Is there any "hot spot" I should give a try?


I also noticed that even when you rev up, the noise is still there. Maybe you don't ear it because the engine noise cover the sound, but it still there.

Man you must have bionic ears. I tried listening to it and can't hear the tapping noise.


How much mileage do you have on your engine? In my Taurus with 3.0L OHV engine, I had have replaced the timing chain at 92,000 miles cause it was a little bit loose, even it didn't make any noise and running fine.

Engine has around 94779 miles. We rebuilt it twice, because of overheating around 6 or 7 years ago, but honestly can't recall on wether we installed a new chain or not.

***************

Thank you very much to everyone for your comments.

Oscar.

Just to clarify, are you talking about the rattling noise in the third video? I have tried to pinpoint that one since 2010 with no success. That noise happens only at warm idle from time to time, specially when there is electrical load on the engine (electric fans, windows reaching the end of their race, etc.) . I have an old thread about it HERE (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1071289) .

It could be the alternator. I make a search for an alternator rattling noise and it's the same as yours, in the 2 Acura:

cMh32VQ8T8Y

This guy in this video has replaced his alternator and the noise has decreased a lot in intensity. Cause he may have another noise....

So remove belt again and record the noise again w/o belt so we can compare. Turn off engine and play with alternator, P/S pumps and all other pulleys.


Listening to valve lifters would require me to put the stethoscope ON the valve covers right? Reaching the rear cover will be a challenge... Is there any "hot spot" I should give a try?
Yes.
The 3 "column" in the valve cover and timing chain cover.


That would be great. I hadn't think about it and don't know if it could help the "diagnostic" but, before the oil change I had the classic tapping noise caused by loss of oil pressure overnight with crappy oil filters. It would start with a cold engine and go away after a some minutes. It changed with RPM's.

Could this have contributed to worn lifters and evolved into the current problem?


Yes if the oil filter is bad. But you've tried another brand of filter after the noise occurs, right?

Thanks again serge_saati,

It could be the alternator. I make a search for an alternator rattling noise and it's the same as yours...


That's what I've been thinking all this time but I've find it difficult to pinpoint the exact location specially when there is no pattern for the noise to appear.

What I meant to ask in my previous post is if the rattling noise in that (third) video is the one you think could be a bad timing chain. Or, were you talking about noise in my first two videos only?


Yes.
The 3 "column" in the valve cover and timing chain cover.


I'll give that a try, thanks again.


Yes if the oil filter is bad. But you've tried another brand of filter after the noise occurs, right?

It was a crappy fram filter used throughout the previous oil change that caused the noise; I didn't change it at the recommended interval so it was overdue. Since I read about the quality of such oil filters, I decided to use motorcraft filters along with same oil brand. That was the moment when I started to hear the tapping noise in the first two videos; the only thing I've done was to install a different motorcraft oil filter.

I'll listen with the stethoscope tomorrow and will make another video with the belt removed.

Oscar.

What I meant to ask in my previous post is if the rattling noise in that (third) video is the one you think could be a bad timing chain. Or, were you talking about noise in my first two videos only?

It's the same noise in all 3 video. In all of them it could be timing chain, pulleys, valve train.... It has the serpentine belt in all video.
I suggest you to listen to timing chain cover while the serpentine belt is removed, cause you've more space and you'll more focus on its noise.

Which model of Fram filter do you consider crappy? Is it the Fram Extra Guard oil filter?
http://mx.fram.com/enmx/products/oil_filters/fram_extra_guard_oil_filter

What do you think about the Fram Xtended Guard filter?

........

So remove belt again and record the noise again w/o belt so we can compare........



Ditto, ditto...........

Thanks man, yeah, that's what the tensioner pulley was like at both times; the second time was even worse, that crappy replacement could have caused something more serious, when I took it out it was like a baby rattle.

There may have been a systemic problem with Ford tensioners a decade ago. When I go to the salvage yard one out of two vehicles there have their drive belt removed (people collect them for spares I guess) and I noticed that on Windstars, Taurus, Lincoln and some other Fords the tensioner pulley is often loose meaning the bearings are shot. This is much less common on other makes. Also when I hear bearing noises when stopped at a traffic light it often comes from a Ford :D

Which model of Fram filter do you consider crappy? Is it the Fram Extra Guard oil filter?
http://mx.fram.com/enmx/products/oil_filters/fram_extra_guard_oil_filter

What do you think about the Fram Xtended Guard filter?

Hi serge,

I've never used the xtended guard; over here the only available models are extra and tough guard and most of them have caused loud lifter noise ticking during cold starts on my vehicles. I've used other brands like Delco and Gonher (mexican brand), which caused no noise on startup. I can also say that googling "orange can of death" has revealed lots of problems around the world; different car forums have the same impression about it.

I kept using fram because autozone is close to my house and they are cheap but now that I get discount prices at the dealer, I can get motorcraft filters for only $3.60, they will stay in the past.

I obviously cannot condemn all of their filters since I haven't tried them all but by experience and general consensus I can say fram stands for low quality.

***************

Back to the topic.

I listened with the stethoscope while the engine was cold:

Timing chain cover: I tried at different spots and I could only listen to what I would consider as a normal chain noise, was like someone dragging a chain around on the floor or manually opening one of those big warehouse doors; I hope you get the idea. Never heard any slapping.

Valve covers: While trying different spots, I could notice some of them seemed a bit louder than the rest, I could refer to it like a slight diesel engine sound but nothing excessive and of course, only noticeable with the stethoscope.

In any case I couldn't hear any tapping, rattling, slapping, etc.

Alternator made no unusual noises and steering pump, the same. While probing on the water pump I could only hear water flowing.

Drove it for a few minutes to warm the engine and be able to hear the noise. When I got home I could tell the noise definitely comes from the drive belt area and listening with the stethoscope reveals what seems to be a metallic clicking noise. Seems to be coming from somewhere in the middle of the block (at the height of the idler pulley) and I can still hear it through the oil filter. Removed the serpentine belt, took me only a few seconds, and tried again; noise wasn't there anymore.

I've uploaded 3 new videos:

Cold engine startup (http://youtu.be/xSRuvhdgV2Q)

Warm engine with belt installed (http://youtu.be/9tkMvW-HlbM)

Warm engine without belt installed (http://youtu.be/5nuxgZCKFvU)

Thanks in advance,

Oscar

There may have been a systemic problem with Ford tensioners a decade ago. When I go to the salvage yard one out of two vehicles there have their drive belt removed (people collect them for spares I guess) and I noticed that on Windstars, Taurus, Lincoln and some other Fords the tensioner pulley is often loose meaning the bearings are shot. This is much less common on other makes. Also when I hear bearing noises when stopped at a traffic light it often comes from a Ford :D

Ha ha, yeah I'm seriously considering that, when I get the chance, I might not be buying another Ford again...

I like to play the "guess the noise game" every time I'm on the street and have nothing to do. Belt noises around here seem to come more often from Nissan Platina's (mexican version of the Renault Clio Symbol) and most of the times from Dodges.

Drove it for a few minutes to warm the engine and be able to hear the noise. When I got home I could tell the noise definitely comes from the drive belt area and listening with the stethoscope reveals what seems to be a metallic clicking noise. Seems to be coming from somewhere in the middle of the block (at the height of the idler pulley) and I can still hear it through the oil filter. Removed the serpentine belt, took me only a few seconds, and tried again; noise wasn't there anymore.

No, I still ear the same noise after you removed the belt and even when engine is cold. Althought it's quiter than when it's cold.

So it's really in the engine. I still think it could be the timing chain or the lifters. But I think it's more likely the timing chain.

Read this for additional infos on the timing chain noise diagnosis:
http://www.ehow.com/how_7648418_diagnose-timing-chain-noises.html

A loose chain can cause metallic noise and can cause the lifter and rocker arms to make additional noise too because of the instant acceleration and deceleration of moving parts when you rev up or release gas when it's slack.

I suggest you to have someone else or many other people to ear the chain noise with the stethoscope to tell if it's the noise is normal or not as a second opinion.

I removed and inspected my chain around 216k miles... it showed no wear, so it was re-installed and now is at 341k miles. I expect it to go to 500k miles. Mobil1. If I ever replace the chain, the wheels will also be replaced. For some engines... the chains, wheels, take-ups, guides, etc ... are all available as a single kit.

If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??