A new noise coming from engine compartment

I finished installing it today; to be honest I kept fighting the last bolt for another 2 hours and I just couldn't bolt it down, I lost my patience and decided to leave it off hoping it wouldn't start to leak... When I got to start the engine I held the gas pedal to the floor and cranked the engine for around 10 seconds to prime the oil system, watched for leaks, nothing. I decided to start the engine and that ticking noise over 1500 RPM I would hear during cold starts is now gone!

The new pump must have really helped, I can't think of another reason. I used 15w40... ticking, used 5w30... ticking, new oil pump and 5w20... not ticking! I idled the engine looking for leaks until it reached operating temp and still no leaks. I'm almost sure that leaving that bolt off won't cause further problems. As the temp went up the ORIGINAL tapping noise from the videos began to be noticeable again, but not as loud as before. Again, the new oil pump must have helped since now the oil was even thinner.

That's good news Oscar!

I ask the opinion of Scotty Kilmer about the 1st video engine noise, and he says it's usually bad timing chain tension and/or worn chain. So you should replace chain tensioner and timing chain and change also sprocket gear and chain guide. Buy the whole kit.

Like we said at beginning LOL.

Thanks Serge, funny thing is that I emailed that same video to Scotty long ago and he said it was the valve tappets causing it and that it sounded quite normal!

I've uploaded a couple of new videos that I made today. Here are the links:

Cold start (http://youtu.be/XbIz5CuYk_E)


Hot engine, tapping audible (http://youtu.be/bzTzujxYLBY)

Whereas on my front cover the pressure relief valve is covered by the oil pump, I believe yours is covered by the block ... and only by removing the front cover could one ever access it.

Whatever the root cause of the noise, the higher flow of oil from the new pump is helping to solve/cover it.

That's right, the only way to remove it is through the block side of the timing cover.

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Wish I could post the actual sound from my stethoscope, I probed around some more and it's definitely coming from the side where the timing cover is. I wonder if any of you guys knows on which side of the chain the tensioner sits; I could hear the noise louder at the front side of the timing cover (where the oil pump is) than towards the back (firewall side). I was thinking of the camshaft synchro and shaft that drives the oil pump, but what do i know?

It seems that I'm facing the inevitable removal of the front timing cover...

Oscar.

If I had to remove the front cover (actually, I need too ... just keep putting it off) I would support the sub frame, remove the four sub frame bolts and push the engine and tranny away toward the LH side of the engine box. Hopefully this will make enough wrench room so that the job is more "joy"!

I'm interested 12Ounce, how would you actually do that?. I understand the concept but can't see it in practice.

What would you use to either move the engine away from the body or the body away from the engine?

Oscar.

If you support the sub frame separately, but close to the body ... and support the body, also separately (perhaps by the wheels): I would expect the sub frame (complete with engine, tranny, and struts attached) .. should be able to shift over an inch or so, using a simple bar. I'm expecting the steering column coupling to have enough "play" in it to allow this to happen.

I'm calling this a "no brainer" at this point ... but I've never actually tried it!

Thanks Serge, funny thing is that I emailed that same video to Scotty long ago and he said it was the valve tappets causing it and that it sounded quite normal!

When I asked him his opinion, I also given him the most details as possible, not just submitting the noise. I told him that noise doesn't increase at higher rpm and noise increase when engine is HOT.
Also, I told him that you already replaced the lifters now.


I suspected the timing chain from the beginning & it was my first opinion, then when I compared to other audio files, I made the mistake of thinking that your noise sounds similar to lifters noise of the Corvette. I forgotten about the fact that in your engine's case, it doesn't worsen at higher rpm, that will rule out the lifters. I was only focused to the noise at this point.

Then when I compared to an engine of the same brand (Ford Ranger 2.3 Duratec), I found out that it's the same engine noise as yours. And the diagnosis was a worn chain tensioner, which is a frequent problem on Ford Engine. The rattling noise of its timing chain it's the same as yours, so I'm sure it's that.

I think your engine makes more sound at hot because the oil is less thick at hot, so there's less oil pressure. Same with lower viscosity oil.

If you support the sub frame separately, but close to the body ... and support the body, also separately (perhaps by the wheels): I would expect the sub frame (complete with engine, tranny, and struts attached) .. should be able to shift over an inch or so, using a simple bar. I'm expecting the steering column coupling to have enough "play" in it to allow this to happen.

I'm calling this a "no brainer" at this point ... but I've never actually tried it!

Yeah, pretty simple I just don't see it; probably because I don't have the tools to do it. I have 2 small floor jacks, one 3.5 ton jack and 2 jackstands, using them, I'm afraid that something may slid off and fall on the ground! Maybe if I had a set of dollies it would make it a snap!

When I asked him his opinion, I also given him the most details as possible, not just submitting the noise. I told him that noise doesn't increase at higher rpm and noise increase when engine is HOT.
Also, I told him that you already replaced the lifters now.


I suspected the timing chain from the beginning & it was my first opinion, then when I compared to other audio files, I made the mistake of thinking that your noise sounds similar to lifters noise of the Corvette. I forgotten about the fact that in your engine's case, it doesn't worsen at higher rpm, that will rule out the lifters. I was only focused to the noise at this point.

Then when I compared to an engine of the same brand (Ford Ranger 2.3 Duratec), I found out that it's the same engine noise as yours. And the diagnosis was a worn chain tensioner, which is a frequent problem on Ford Engine. The rattling noise of its timing chain it's the same as yours, so I'm sure it's that.

I think your engine makes more sound at hot because the oil is less thick at hot, so there's less oil pressure. Same with lower viscosity oil.

Thank you Serge, I sent him a detailed explanation and his answer was "Way too long" See the attached pic LOL.

Anyway, it seems that you guys are right (since the beginning) and I'll have to remove the front cover. I did a quick vacuum test (just got a gauge tester) and it was steady at 21in.Hg. That at least tells that it hasn't jumped a tooth...

I just can't find the will to do such a titanic task on this engine, why did Ford have to do it so hard for us?

Oscar.

If you had four jack-stands, or just two more supports of a rugged sort, you have all you need. Use four support points with a pair of heavy board running sideways. Each board sits atop a pair of supports. One board near the rear of the sub frame, one near the front. Loosen the sub-frame bolts several rounds and check to make sure the sub frame is secure on the boards ... then continue removing the bolts.

When the sub frame is low enough to have a small air gap between it and the frame, you are ready to try sliding it on the boards to provide better access. You may have to jack the body up a bit to achieve this.

I have dropped a Winnie sub frame all the way to the floor, using just threaded rod-screws that I made for the purpose. But I have not yet tried this limited move.

OK, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but on my '96 with the 3.8L, I'm nearly certain that the front cover can be removed with the block in it's "normal" spot.

You'll have to remove a few other things (i.e. balancer, water pump pully, etc.) but I think the cover will come out. The key "trick" is to back the studs out of the block without removing them from the cover and lift vertical.

Thanks Tomj76,

I was thinking about that possibility after taking a look at the engine bay. The Ps pump, alternator, harmonic balancer, water pump pulley, tensioner and idler pulley do need to come off before the front cover.

Just to think of it shivers me lol

Oscar.

In the work that I've been doing to re-ring/re-bearing my engine, I initially planed to do it with the block in place. I was to the point of removing the front cover when I decided to take the block out. The Ford Windstar factory service manual says that you need to remove the engine to remove the cover, but I read somewhere on the web that this is not necessary.

Once I removed the water pump and removed all the front cover bolts, I found that I couldn't turn two of the studs that pass through the water pump & front cover into the block. They had corroded to the point where the rust pinched them tight in the front cover clearance holes. I ended up breaking them from trying to turn them, then I eventually got them free. I had to apply heat to one of them while hammering on the cover (against a flange) to get it to move.

By the time I got the last stud out I had decided that the engine work would be easier with the block out of the engine bay, especially with the stud problem as well. I never put my idea of removing the cover with the block in place to the final test.

Final word of caution... those bolts, especially the water pump bolts are a mix of types, at least four types of bolts. In addition, the documentation of which bolt goes where is not consistent, even from Ford. I'd take a few steps to make sure you keep track of locations for each bolt and stud.

This is a copy of a post I made years ago.

You need to jack the engine up, I only needed to remove the front mount to gain the clerance needed. All the studs (5 if I remember correctly) must be unscrewed from the block while the cover is still in place, just double nut them and hope they are not seized in the cover(mine where ok)

When you reinstall the cover the 3 rear studs must be in the cover before you place it on the engine, I put all 5 in place just so I wold not forget.

I did not remove the oil pan, I used a FelPro gasket set that includes silicone sealer for the pan to cover joint. This joint was silicone from the factory anyway.

Like Wiswind said, do not miss the bolt located under the oil pump, it's an allen head and was not a standard size (it's Metric I think) I wound up grinding down a 1/4" drywall screw tip and puting it in a 1/4" socket. It did not need much grinding to make it fit.

Before you pull the crank balancer all the way off make note of it's position (mine had a notch that I pointed straight up) then remove the cam sensor and note the position of the "vane" that spins under the cover.you also neeed to make a scribe a mark to line the sensor up with the timing cover.

I have to say the worst part of the job besides bending over the fender for real long time is scraping the gaskets off.

It took me 14 hours without trying to rush it. Only special tool was a balancer puller, people have said you need a power steering pulley puller but I got the pump bracket off the engine without removing the pulley. The 1 lower bolt is the problem, with the pulley in the way you can only turn it 1 wrench flat at a time.

I had trouble breaking the balancer bolt loose as I could not keep the engine from turning. I used an old trick from years back, I put a socket and braker bar in the bolt and wedged it on the frame rail. I then bumped the engine over with the starter till it broke the bolt loose. Be carefull if you do this, if the bar slips it's going to go flying.

It can be done, good luck

Oh, it can be removed "in place". ... and I've done it. And all the while I was muttering to myself ... "next time I'm gonna ....."

Oh, it can be removed "in place". ... and I've done it. And all the while I was muttering to myself ... "next time I'm gonna ....."

Well, I did start by saying that I may not know what I'm talking about. What problem will detaching and shifting the subframe solve? You always have great insight, so I'd like to know what I'm missing.

There's about an inch that the whole engine/tranny could be shifted to the left, once the sub frame bolts are removed ... along with the strut upper nuts loosened. At least, that's what I think. That additional inch of wrench room would do wonders.

But like I say, I haven't tried it ... yet.

Nice sharing.

Oscar, you should update your threat.

So, Oscar has changed his timing chain and chain tensionner but the noise is still there.

We finally conclude that it could be the camshaft the problem.
The lobes can be damaged an affect the lifters too.

But he doesn't want to spend more money and times for this van, he already spend too much.
I agree with his decision.

BTW, since lasting posting .. I have "dropped" and pushed over the sub-frame for better access to the front cover. It all went pretty well as planned. I would add "loosening" the steering shaft-to-steering rack clamp as part of recommended procedure.
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The reason I was doing the work ... was to eliminate a oil-to-coolant crossover that was putting oil into the coolant; and most likely, putting coolant into the oil. The lower intake manifold and front cover gaskets were replaced. All seems good.

Hello guys, I'm sorry that I'm bringing this thread back form the death, but I think it's the best way since I'm the OP and I feel like linking to it from a new thread could be unnecessary...

It's been a long journey and lots of work on this matter; I thought I would post an update on this, I made a major discovery.

In november last year I replaced the timing chain as suggested in the replies, like Serge said, the noise went down but it didn't fully disappear; I decided to live with it, for some time, then I took it to another mechanic and he also advised to replace the camshaft synchronizer, I was just thinking "I've replaced all those parts, why not just replace this one?" (I hate being a parts changer, but what else?). It made no change...

It was until a couple of weeks ago that I installed new spark plugs and decided to try something new, something unusual; I opened the upper intake and removed the middle baffle (I had glued it with RTV to the upper cover) just for shits and giggles, well, guess what? THE KNOCKING NOISE WENT AWAY. Check the videos below.

Cold start - Here I only installed the upper cover without the baffle, there's another noise present, I probed around but can't pinpoint it, I remember my neighbor's truck having an exhaust leak and sounding just like that. Your thoughts? It doesn't sound bad to me, but again, I'm no expert...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYsNUAHbdE

Hot idle in neutral - Here you can see it sounds pretty much normal, I reinstalled the baffle but used LOTS of RTV to glue it to both (upper and lower) parts. There's still some noise during cold starts, but nothing compared to what it was before, hot idle sounds perfect to me...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy7yC-GUU9Y

Tapping noise at idle IN GEAR - This noise persits, again, I think it must be from an exhaust leak that "opens" as the engine moves back and forth from being in gear. If I put it in neutral it goes away, today I noticed it also seems to tap for a second as the cooling fans come on. It's definitely related to engine load, but I can't relate it to an actual component.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T8jBt_7o74

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My suspicious about an exhaust leak also come from the loud clanking noise I hear after turning off the engine, I haven't been able to catch that in video. It can happen from a few seconds to several minutes after turning off the engine and it happens several times until everything finally cools down. I'll have that checked at an exhaust shop, I don't have enough room at home to deal with it...

I do plan to get an upgraded manifold cover, gluing it was just a "diagnosing method" which has proven to work, however, the vibrations are taking it's toll and the noise seems to be getting louder again.

Oscar.

Check the rubber exhaust mounts and the flexible exhaust shield first. Also, when cold, just shake all the components back and forth a little. You may find it's something really silly. One of the exhaust hangars on ours was barely hanging by a thread and was almost completely separated.

Are your engine mounts original?

Thanks scubacat, I'll do that. The engine mounts are original and I was just thinking that one might be bad as the engine moves a little too much in my opinion, you can see it on the last video.

Oscar.

Only use OEM for the front one. The two hydraulic side ones can be aftermarket. The engine movement in the one video that works appears normal, but it's hard to say for sure without looking more thoroughly. The sound seems rotational though. Bad hydraulic mounts cause severe vibration. (the subframe recall being done wiped out mine..)

I almost forgot.. Do you have one of these? If not I HIGHLY recommend picking one up. It may solve this mystery for you.

http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-69913.html

I'm glad you fix it. It's funny that the problem was so simple to fix compared to all the heavy work you make on it like replacing timing chain and lifter.
And the noise was close to the intake.
But it was hard to find it, even if I thought about that, because it sounded like a metallic rattle noise, and furthermore you already repaired the intake middle baffle, you glued one time because you already had this problem. So I thought this problem was fixed and it's a new problem, but no it's the same problem. Maybe not glued properly last time.

Anyway, glad that you fix it.
Good that you didn't replaced the long camshaft of the engine block (not the synchronizer I'm talking) for nothing.

3 years later, problem solved. Anyway, it was not a major issue.
You take care a lot of your van. More than people does with their Ferrari haha :)

One other thought - have you run the engine (only for a minute at most) without the belt on? Does the noise persist or stop without the belt?

Only use OEM for the front one. The two hydraulic side ones can be aftermarket. The engine movement in the one video that works appears normal, but it's hard to say for sure without looking more thoroughly. The sound seems rotational though. Bad hydraulic mounts cause severe vibration. (the subframe recall being done wiped out mine..)

Yes, it kinda sounds rotational. I checked the crankshaft for throwout (is that the correct term?) and it all seems OK, there's no in and out play on it.

I almost forgot.. Do you have one of these? If not I HIGHLY recommend picking one up. It may solve this mystery for you.

http://www.harborfreight.com/mechanics-stethoscope-69913.html

I have one, but I still have to acquire more experience using it, I mean, it still sounds to me like the noise is coming from everywhere, but I've noticed the ticking noise being the loudest at the actual fuel filter. It's weird because the oil pump, oil bypass valve and camshaft synchronizer and sprocket are new, so there should be no play there...

I'm glad you fix it. It's funny that the problem was so simple to fix compared to all the heavy work you make on it like replacing timing chain and lifter.
And the noise was close to the intake.
But it was hard to find it, even if I thought about that, because it sounded like a metallic rattle noise, and furthermore you already repaired the intake middle baffle, you glued one time because you already had this problem. So I thought this problem was fixed and it's a new problem, but no it's the same problem. Maybe not glued properly last time.

Anyway, glad that you fix it.
Good that you didn't replaced the long camshaft of the engine block (not the synchronizer I'm talking) for nothing.

3 years later, problem solved. Anyway, it was not a major issue.
You take care a lot of your van. More than people does with their Ferrari haha :)

It is indeed Serge! I really appreciate all the help I received from you and the other members. I don't regret doing all that, I learned new stuff and got some peace of mind from the parts being in good condition (they are new now lol). As you said, I had glued it before but only to the top part, I guess the RTV was still allowing to baffle to swing inside causing it to hit the lower part.

Such an easy fix causing such a major headache!!!

Do you have any input on that other noise in that last video?

PS. I'm very sure a Ferrari doesn't cause this much troubles LOL

One other thought - have you run the engine (only for a minute at most) without the belt on? Does the noise persist or stop without the belt?

Yes, I've tried that in the past, either hot and cold, and the noise is there only at hot idle in gear, nothing else. I've fixed the broken links...


Oscar.

I took a different approach to that internal (infernal!) manifold-baffle: I glued it with RTV to the LOWER. This was done eons ago. Has worked pretty well for me.

I took a different approach to that internal (infernal!) manifold-baffle: I glued it with RTV to the LOWER. This was done eons ago. Has worked pretty well for me.

Thanks, buddy! I glued it to both parts and it improved, however the noise is starting to come back; the vibrations are between the upper and lower parts must be the cause, I suppose.

So you glued it to the lower part, did you break the tabs on the upper cover? Mine still has them intact, I could take it apart, cut them and try your approach, I take it you put the Rtv all around the actual runners, between them and their openings on the lower part? I'm all in when it comes saving money, and this definitely is a good candidate!

Well I compared you noise with the older one in 2012, and it's a different noise.
It now sounds like a tapping noise. And it's less loudly. But the noise is at the same frequency.

It seems that you have a noise that came from the harmonic balancer or crankshaft pulley bearing. But that seems to be a different noise, the other one is quieter.
But it doesn't sound like loose flexplate.

It's true that in gear, there's a lot more of engine load because of the torque converter load increase. The double actually. Also it increases when you turn on the A/C, turn the steering wheel, turn on rear defogger and even increase the rpm because more inertia. So there's more air flow that enter in the intake, and yeah more exhaust gazes flow that exit from the intake. Load affects a little bit the pulleys, because the maximum instant angular acceleration of the crankshaft and linear acceleration of the piston increase even if it's the same rpm since the acceleration is not constant and even if it happens each 120° of rotation.

But it doesn't seem like an exhaust noise.

I mean a higher exhaust gases flow that exit to the exhaust pipe and muffler, cat...