A new noise coming from engine compartment

In the video without belt on I noticed at about 30 seconds a pulley is turning (not the harmonic balancer) by the oil filter., could it be the culpirt?

In the video without belt on I noticed at about 30 seconds a pulley is turning (not the harmonic balancer) by the oil filter., could it be the culpirt?

It's not because you see a pulley turning while you hear the noise that you should think that's the source of the noise. You can't see a noise, you can just ear it.
An it's the crankshaft pulley. The harmonic balancer (vibration damper) is located behind it.


If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??


Yes there's an hydraulic tensioner for the timing chain of the 3.8L. In bottom of the picture.

http://cnsautoparts-ebay.codepremise.com/attachments/0001/3668/TS10376-2.jpg

After watching video again you are correct it is the cranshaft pulley, I thought it was still the idler pulley still turning somehow. My mistake.

12Ounce, does the Mobil1 oil is the best? I thought it was Castrol Edge with "Titanium" fluid technology - synthetic. Do you use Mobil1 oil filter too?

Do you really plan to make your Windstar reach 500K miles? How many times did you replace/rebuilt your transmission up to now?

What is the best oil? What is the one and true religion? I have no idea.

I use Mobil1 after making some "study" years ago, ....but now, years later, its just habit. It seems to work very well for me, I'm amazed at the little metal wear I see on internal parts. And I rely heavily on oil tests done by Blackstone Labs that keep me on course.

There may be "better" oils ... but I don't know why I would change at this point. I use the Purolator PL series oil fiter.

:banghead: I HATE IT! :biggrin:

No, I still ear the same noise after you removed the belt and even when engine is cold. Althought it's quiter than when it's cold.

So it's really in the engine. I still think it could be the timing chain or the lifters. But I think it's more likely the timing chain.

Thanks serge, that's the HUGE difference between an experienced ear and a beginner's, and if you add to that the fact that I'm used to that engine noise makes the diagnostic even harder for me.

You'll see, this Windstar overheated twice, the first time was because of a corroded water pump impeller that disintegrated and the second was caused by air in the system. We rebuilt it both times and as I mentioned before I can't remember if we replaced any of the timing components, we might have done it the first time but not the second; at this point I would say we didn't and I'm guessing that's the reason why the chain and/or tensioner are failing.

Now I'm convinced that the problem is at the chain and not the lifters; as I said before, the noise is more noticeable at the timing cover rather than the valve covers.

I removed and inspected my chain around 216k miles... it showed no wear, so it was re-installed and now is at 341k miles. I expect it to go to 500k miles. Mobil1. If I ever replace the chain, the wheels will also be replaced. For some engines... the chains, wheels, take-ups, guides, etc ... are all available as a single kit.

If your chain is the noise maker, it could just be the take-up/tensioner device. They are sometimes defective and fail. I'm not sure, don't remember about the one in the 3.8, if this tensioner has a hydraulic component or not ... it may just be a spring. If it does have a hydraulic component, that might answer why it is sensitive to oil-weight and temperature. ??


Yes there's an hydraulic tensioner for the timing chain of the 3.8L. In bottom of the picture.

Thanks again 12Ounce.

That must be the reason because the noise seems to be coming from the middle eight of the engine, by the idler pulley's height. I'm pretty sure if I manage to listen at the back tensioner the noise will be more audible there.

Guys, from your comments, I say I will have to replace the timing chain and tensioner (from the image, I guess it must come with the guides) AT LEAST. Would that be ok if I can get them by separate, or should I just bite the bullet and get it as an assembly with the sprockets?

Replacing the chain itself is a PITA; I would like to know if there's any chance for the sprockets to go bad. If that's the case then I'll surely get the whole thing so I won't have to deal with it again.

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Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

What do you guys think?

I wonder if anybody has any tips on this task. I understand I'll have to:

-Set engine at TDC
-Drain the oil and coolant
-Remove the tensioner and idler pulleys
-Remove the alternator
-Set the steering pump aside
-Set the A/C compressor aside
-Remove the crankshaft pulley and dampener
*1.- Will I need to remove the oil filter adapter and pump from the engine?
*2.- Will I need to remove engine mount nut in order to raise the engine?
*3.- Should the water pump be removed first, or is it possible to remove it while still attached to the timing cover?
*4.- I think I must remove the passenger side oil pan bolts. Will that be enough or should I remove the entire oil pan.
*5.- Is it necessary to remove the cam synchronizer?
*6.- Should I replace the crankshaft seal on the cover or not?. There are no oil leaks ATM.

I checked the manual but the procedure stated in it only covers the removal for the 3.0 engine.

This thing will remain parked for some time now until I can afford it.

Oscar.

I would be hesitant to take lay out such bucks. Have you ever tested the oil pressure?

Disintegrated water pump impeller, eh. Let me guess: plain, or even worse ... distilled water, used as a coolant ... with no anti-freeze, or anti-rust added. ??

I would be hesitant to take lay out such bucks. Have you ever tested the oil pressure?

Disintegrated water pump impeller, eh. Let me guess: plain, or even worse ... distilled water, used as a coolant ... with no anti-freeze, or anti-rust added. ??

Still haven't been able to find an oil pressure tester; a store told me they might be able to get one for me and would call me, but nothing yet. The windstar will remain parked until then. There is NO WAY I'm taking it to any mechanic; I rather store it a long time than taking it there.

I have no idea about why the impeller disintegrated; when we bought the van it had proper coolant in it, looked a bit diluted though...

Oscar.

Oscar have you looked at the engine oil pressure tester at harborfreight.com, I do not know how much shipping would cost but might be worth checking into.

Hi tempfixit, yeah I already took a look at it and I'm interested in the oil pressure gauge and a solar panel to keep batteries charged but I'm just waiting to see if the guy from the store can get the gauge or not, I'll be seen him tomorrow.

I really appreciate your input and will keep you informed if I decide to get anything form that web.

Oscar.

In the hydraulic tensioner you have a valve. So it's not operating at full pressure. So even a minor drop in the pressure will not cause the chain to be loose. The other proof, is that when you accelerate I still ear the noie. So I don't think the tensioner is loose because of the lack of pressure. It could be the chain itself.

I have no idea about why the impeller disintegrated; when we bought the van it had proper coolant in it, looked a bit diluted though...

Metal fatigue perhaps? It's a common manufacturing defect...

I have an oil pressure test gauge kit that is all simple mechanical. No electrics or exotics. I use it for tranmission fluid and engine oil pressures. 0 - 300 psi. IIRC. The cost was less than $30 at AutoZone a couple of years ago.

In the hydraulic tensioner you have a valve. So it's not operating at full pressure. So even a minor drop in the pressure will not cause the chain to be loose. The other proof, is that when you accelerate I still ear the noie. So I don't think the tensioner is loose because of the lack of pressure. It could be the chain itself.

Thanks serge, If I understand right, under that same theory, the lifters would have the same operation and noise should go at higher revs due to higher oil pressure and would likely rule out a problem with them and leave only the timing chain or oil pressure as more probable causes. Is this reasoning correct or wrong?.

Metal fatigue perhaps? It's a common manufacturing defect...

Don't know, in fact that was the first time we ever experienced a failing pump. Didn't know what kind of maintenance the previous driver did to the van but being an old lady you would normally think it should have been well maintained. At least a high percentage of the times it's like that... IIRC the replacement came with a plastic impeller.

I have an oil pressure test gauge kit that is all simple mechanical. No electrics or exotics. I use it for tranmission fluid and engine oil pressures. 0 - 300 psi. IIRC. The cost was less than $30 at AutoZone a couple of years ago.

Yeah, I've seen it online and was expecting they would have it in stock but no, they don't. In fact the clerk they rarely stock them due to their LOW demand. Over here most men are girly boys and can't even change a flat tire.

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I couldn't get to see the guy form the store but will try again tomorrow. Had to take my mother to see the doctor and was a little busy today.

None of you said anything about my previous question and I'm interested to know what do you think?


Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

OFF TOPIC.- What do you guys think form Autozone's battery tests; the reason I ask is because I went there to have a battery tested and the guy said it's bad. I went to the place where I bought it to have it warrantied and they say Autozone tests are unreliable and a bunch of other stupid things. The thing is they wanted to "slow charge" it with 5A, I used to know slow charge means 1-2 amperes, because it's supposedly low on charge even when the DMM measures 12.5V and the electrolyte density tested BAD.

Oscar.

Thanks serge, If I understand right, under that same theory, the lifters would have the same operation and noise should go at higher revs due to higher oil pressure and would likely rule out a problem with them and leave only the timing chain or oil pressure as more probable causes. Is this reasoning correct or wrong?.

No, because at higher rpm the lifters operate faster and make more noise.



Since the noise is more noticeable as the engine warms up, it would be "safe" to run the engine a few minutes so I can maneuver the Lincoln out of the garage? My garage is supposed to be for 2 vehicles, but has enough space to actually store 3 vehicles and in order to get it out, I'll need to move the windstar. It shouldn't be more than a few minutes and wouldn't even reach normal temp.

What do you guys think?

Yes it would be safe.

........... Over here most men can't even change a flat tire. .....................

I know what you meant ... you meant "change out a wheel that has a flat!" My new SL was disbelieving when I said I could remove and replace a tire on a wheel rim.... using hand tools. I had then to demonstrate it. All it takes is a rubber hammer, toolmakers hammer and various "spades" and "spoons" ... tire tools. Big arms help. And patience.

That was a few years ago ... and years before that, I lived so remotely that being able to change out tires was a necessity. Farm life, so to speak!

About AutoZone tests.... I find them as good as the technician.

No, because at higher rpm the lifters operate faster and make more noise.

Whoops! That's strike number two, or was it number three? I've lost count already LOL.


Yes it would be safe.

Thanks serge. At least I can maneuver a littler with it until I can actually fix it.

I know what you meant ... you meant "change out a wheel that has a flat!" My new SL was disbelieving when I said I could remove and replace a tire on a wheel rim.... using hand tools. I had then to demonstrate it. All it takes is a rubber hammer, toolmakers hammer and various "spades" and "spoons" ... tire tools. Big arms help. And patience.

That was a few years ago ... and years before that, I lived so remotely that being able to change out tires was a necessity. Farm life, so to speak!

About AutoZone tests.... I find them as good as the technician.

Sounds like funny times back then!

Well, if any of my neighbors (males and females) has a tire low on air, they will drive until somebody tells them they have one; people around here just don't realize it.

Same thing applies for flat tires. They'll end up stranded at the side of the road until somebody else helps them. General consensus around here is "if it starts drive it, if it doesn't try the other car or call somebody", plain and simple.

*******************

I kept the battery on slow charge with a trickle charger. Checked with my DMM and showed 12.6 volts; decided to take a look at the plates and 3 of them have dark stains on them... Looks like it's gonna be a long way until the place I bought it from accepts the battery is bad and has to be exchanged with a new one. I've the same problem over the past years; every single battery I get will develop problems within one year form new. The only thing that keeps me returning is the warranty, I don't want to pay for a new one when this things should be working!.

I talked the guy from the autoparts store about the oil pressure gauge tester and told me it should be here next week, so I'll have to wait until then.

Oscar.

Hi guys, it's been long since the last time.

So I went to get my newly arrived oil pressure gauge tester just to find out they shipped a DAMN fuel pressure tester! I specifically told the guy I already had one and ask him not to do that mistake... Well, now I have to wait until they get the correct one.

In the meantime, I started the windstar during last monday (had been sitting in the garage) in order to maneuver the Town Car out of the garage; during that moment I could tell the rattling sound coming from the engine at cold temperature. It was kinda like a diesel engine (I know about the upper intake baffle, which I already glued long time ago) so... you were definitely right Serge; the noise is present at all times.

Since things expand with heat and with the overheating background of this vehicle, I'm definitely leaning more towards a faulty timing chain and not the lifters.

Looks like I'll be needing to get my mind ready to tackle this tedious work LOL.

Oscar.

Hi guys, it's me again...

I was shopping for some parts for my uncle's car when I thought I would ask how much would a new timing set for my windstar would cost. The guy quoted me with ~$50 dlls. For the chain, tensor and both sprockets.

I was thinking "if I have a rattle noise at cold and rattle+tapping noise when hot, and I'm waiting for a $30 oil gauge to arrive (if it arrives); why not just skip all that and get the new set, install it and hope for the best?"

As I've mentioned before, the engine was overheated and rebuilt twice, chain was not replaced (at least not the second time). Do you think I should just go with that? What else would I need during the process?

Thanks,

Oscar.

I'm 99% sure it's the chain but it still worths to wait for the oil pressure gauge to test the pressure.

Thank you very much Serge,

I'll wait a little more until I get an answer from the store, the guy didn't provide an estimated time of arrival.

In any case, I can't afford it right now :D LOL.

Oscar.

Because your oil pressure light never lits, and the noise is constant with rpm, I will say it's safe to go with the timing chain and forget the gauge.

Thanks serge,

I got a call form the store and the guy said the oil gauge might arrive later this week, I hope it does. If not, then I will just tear apart the engine to access and replace the timing chain, tensioner and both sprockets; if I find anything else is bad during the process I'll have no other option but to replace it. ;)

As always, I really appreciate your/any input.

Oscar.

There's nothing wrong with opening up the front of the engine to have a look ... especially on a high mileage engine. But I would not expect much wear on the chain drive ... unless the engine has seen some very poor oil service, and then one can expect a lot of wear throughout the engine. I did a light rebuild on my 3.8 at 216k thousand, I could not detect any significant chain wear ... and I know what to look for. The same engine is now at 350k miles and I would bet the chain wear is still not very significant.

Now don't get me wrong ... things can happen. Chain guides can break. Chain tensioners can break. Both would cause a loose chain and noise. Therefore an inspection is certainly in order. But I would not assume anything before having a look.

If this were a Nissan four cylinder engine, or a Ford Duratec engine, I would be more suspicious of cam chain condition. Or if the engine has been rebuilt.

But in any case, an inspection will hopefully reveal the noise maker.

Thanks 12Ounce.

Well, as I said before, this same engine was REBUILT TWICE due to overheating. I don't remember if we replaced the timing chain back then, but I would surely say we didn't. Another important thing that I didn't mention before is that this vehicle SAT FOR NEARLY 4-5 YEARS until we decided to fix the transmission and use it.

When we took it to the mechanic (which was close to where it was stored) I asked the guy to change the oil and filter; after discovering lots of "details" that the mechanic left unattended, I can almost say that he only changed the filter and not the oil...

All this factors might have contributed to the problem, what do you guys think?

I might start this work next week, don't know. But will surely take a look before buying anything, I don't want to waste money at this time.

Thanks,

Oscar.

I was watching some videos and I tripped with this one; now that I pay attention to the engine noise, it sounds pretty much like my windstar's ! I'm even more confident that this might be a problem with the timing chain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeO3-2vknPQ

Thank you very much guys, I really appreciate all of your comments.

Oscar.

Hello guys! It's me, the nightmare, again... Lol

I've been procrastinating on this for a very long time, the windstar's been sitting since. On monday I told myself "to hell with it" and decided to take it to the mechanic for a diagnostic.

He says it really seems to be a problem with the valvetrain and suggested to run some engine cleaner to see if it goes away.

I know I'm just being stubborn but still would love some input if you have something to say about it.

As always, thanks in advance.

Oscar.

Engine cleaner is totaly useless. I don't know why he said that.
If the noise is coming from the timing chain, it's the timing chain. If you want another advice, ask another mechanic to look at it. Cause the noise of valvetrain is similar to timing chain, so the guy should have very good ears to confirm the source of the noise.

As I had mentioned before, Duratec engines had a rash of chain tensioner issues. Now that I realize your 3.8 has been rebuilt ... it dictates that a front end inspection is in order for sure ... to include the oil pump and oil pump drive shaft. And there may be some pulley loose on its shaft ... rocking back and forth.

I agree, engine cleaner will accomplish nothing ... its time to twist some wrenches!

Engine cleaner is totaly useless. I don't know why he said that.
If the noise is coming from the timing chain, it's the timing chain. If you want another advice, ask another mechanic to look at it. Cause the noise of valvetrain is similar to timing chain, so the guy should have very good ears to confirm the source of the noise.

Thank you very much for your time and patience Serge, I appreciate it.

The place looked serious, I know I don't trust mechanics, but this time it seemed like the real thing LOL. You never know...

As suggested before, I will just replace the timing chain, tensioner and sprockets for peace of mind; the last thing I want is for any of them blowing during engine operation.

As I had mentioned before, Duratec engines had a rash of chain tensioner issues. Now that I realize your 3.8 has been rebuilt ... it dictates that a front end inspection is in order for sure ... to include the oil pump and oil pump drive shaft. And there may be some pulley loose on its shaft ... rocking back and forth.

I agree, engine cleaner will accomplish nothing ... its time to twist some wrenches!

Thanks 12Ounce I appreciate your input too.

Oil pump and shaft inspection? Do you think it would be a good idea to just replace the pump? on't know if the shaft comes with out (don't think so) or if they even sell it.

Pulleys are OK, I inspected them several times before, even replaced the tensioner's as it was starting to grind.

*********************

I've gathered enough mental strength to tackle this job; I must say that I've been very hesitant to perform it, it's so tight in there that I just don't like it LOL.

Oscar.

It's been a while since I have had this engine opened up .... but I remember the oil pump being driven by shaft out the bottom of the synchronizer. When I rebuilt my engine I cut a shaft out of some hex bar-stock so I could prime the oil pump with drill motor.

With all the rebuilds its been through, and the noise it now makes ... I would disassemble the oil pump and check for wear. I would also closely inspect the synchronizer. The oil pump is a strange affair that is bolted to the bottom corner of the front cover .... and the pressure relief valve is inserted into the cover and capped over. All requires some close study to understand and repair. If you replace the pump, I would also replace the pressure relief valve (usually included with new pump).

Thanks 12Ounce,

From reading the FSM I understand how the pump works and seems like no big deal. Will take a look at it.

Oscar.

Hi guys,

I decided to give it a last shot and took it to another mechanic, my uncle has taken his car to him and has had good results; after talking to the guy, I kinda trust him.

He took a look at the engine and noise and said it does sounds like a tappet noise (as some of you said before) and said he would have to find out if it's possible to do a valve adjustment on this engine or it would be just worn components needing replacement. He didn't say what could exactly be the problem, just valvetrain in general.

I know the basics but have no idea where the problem could be located at. I just read the manual and saw that there are NO adjustments (as I suspected, I remember that I removed one of the hydraulic tappets during one of the rebuilds years ago) to be done.

What do you guys think? How would I do about it to make sure it's either one thing or the other?

As always, I appreciate your input.

Oscar.

You can adjust the preload of the lifters, by setting the lifter plunger to the center of its travel. Or you can replace them. The lifters are located near the camshat, in the engine block (different place of the heads and valve cover).

You should adjust/replace them all.

Thanks Serge, it's good to know that you (and everyone else) are still willing to help this stubborn guy and I appreciate it.

Yeah, I checked and manifold needs to come out as they are below of it; I guess that would explain why I was able to hear the noise by the timing cover rather than the valve covers, however I could not find any adjustment procedure for the hydraulic lifters. Could you please elaborate more on this?

What do you think about this hypothesis? Do you think it's a valid one?

Oscar.

Here they give info about the lifters adjustment: http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Adjusting_hydraulic_lifters.
Here's a video for the rocker arms adjustment:
89o5rLpbCgI

Buy if they're worn, you should replace them.

On the 3.8, there is no manual adjustment on the lifters... all automatic/hydraulic. I don't recognize the engine in the image.

Yeah this engine is a V8 OHV. You see the 8 pairs of valves.
He can replace the lifters. Or adjust the rocker arms.

You can locate a noisy lifter, sometimes, by placing a feeler gauge under the rocker arm while the engine is idling. If the noise changes noticeably while the gauge is probed in place ... you may have found a noisy lifter. Temporarily loosening the rocker hold down bolt may have the same effect.

If you find no noisey lifters, that could leave chain-slap or piston-slap as the noise makers.

Thanks guys.

I was thinking that if the lifters are that worn I could remove the valve covers and easily spot it with my bare hands by checking up and down movement while engine is off, right?.

I watched the video, but it only mentions info about adjustable rocker arms, which I'm pretty sure is not my case. I will read the other link you, Serge, posted along with the PDF contained in it.

EDIT:Or maybe I should just replace them all instead of fiddling?

Oscar.

On the Windstar the rocker arms are ajustables, like in the video (1:08), but I'll be surprise that it would be the problem. And don't mind about the pdf.


I was thinking that if the lifters are that worn I could remove the valve covers and easily spot it with my bare hands by checking up and down movement while engine is off, right?.


No, you cannot spot the lifter by removing only the valve cover. You should also remove the lower intake manifold.

On the Windstar the rocker arms are ajustables, like in the video (1:08), but I'll be surprise that it would be the problem. And don't mind about the pdf.

No, you cannot spot the lifter by removing only the valve cover. You should also remove the lower intake manifold.

It turns out that the video is the actual representation of what the PDF says, more or less.

I used to think that I would be able to spot any play on the push rod, that's why I thought of removing the valve cover. Your answer tells me that you don't think this is the problem, but rather the timing chain as before?

Oscar.

I said it could be worn lifters, but not adjustment issue. Adjustment issue are very rare on modern engine. You adjust rocker arms and torque nut only when you replace lifters usually. But you're right, you can test the play like that. And you're right about the pdf, I thought the pdf was for only for non adjustable rocker arms.

And yes, I think is more the chain tensioner the problem.

Oscar have you tried listening to the valve cover area's with a stethoscope, screwdriver or hose to see if you can detect any valvetrain noise differences???

IMO it would be worth a try for piece of mind to eliminate the valvetrain.

Some 160k miles ago, I rebuilt my 3.8. Myself. Me, not my cousin or neighbor. Me.

Unless I was smoking something really good, the valve system ... lifters, rockers, etc ... had no manual adjustment!

I said it could be worn lifters, but not adjustment issue. Adjustment issue are very rare on modern engine. You adjust rocker arms and torque nut only when you replace lifters usually. But you're right, you can test the play like that. And you're right about the pdf, I thought the pdf was for only for non adjustable rocker arms.

And yes, I think is more the chain tensioner the problem.

Thank you Serge, I will take a look at it within the next days, I'm kinda busy right now. I found a video on youtube about how to check for a stretched timing chain with a timing light; unfortunately the windstar has no timing marks (that I know of) so I guess no luck there.

Oscar have you tried listening to the valve cover area's with a stethoscope, screwdriver or hose to see if you can detect any valvetrain noise differences???

IMO it would be worth a try for piece of mind to eliminate the valvetrain.

Hi Larry, thanks for showing up! I tried the front cover, rear was kinda hard to reach but will take another look at it, I'll remove the wipers cowl for easier access. You're right, I would prefer upper engine repair than having to deal with that dreaded front cover.

Some 160k miles ago, I rebuilt my 3.8. Myself. Me, not my cousin or neighbor. Me.

Unless I was smoking something really good, the valve system ... lifters, rockers, etc ... had no manual adjustment!

Thanks 12Ounce, I'm pretty sure that when I peeked down into the oil filler cap I saw bolts rather than nuts on the rocker arms, that's why I also think there is no adjustment for these, however I can't be totally sure about it, I'll find out when I remove the valve cover. I think that your method with the feeler gauge involved checking for play between the push rod and rocker arm (as I intended to with my fingers while engine is off, rather than a gauge) instead of taking a look at the hydraulic lifters under the lower manifold.

Oscar.

......... unfortunately the windstar has no timing marks (that I know of) so I guess no luck there.........

Oscar.

Actually, there is a mark on the crankwheel but it is usually very faint. There is also a timing pointer moulded in the front cover. All located low and "behind everything" ... you need the head and neck of a snake to observe. Now that I know where it is .... its still difficult to find, even with a mirrow on an extendable rod.

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

Here is a link for video use vacuum gauge to find TDC:

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/videos?videoid=u2sA-q7_FtQ

Actually, there is a mark on the crankwheel but it is usually very faint. There is also a timing pointer moulded in the front cover. All located low and "behind everything" ... you need the head and neck of a snake to observe. Now that I know where it is .... its still difficult to find, even with a mirrow on an extendable rod.

A mark on the harmonic balancer you say? I will see if I can find it; also what's the approximate location of the pointer on the timing cover?

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

Here is a link for video use vacuum gauge to find TDC:

https://www.ericthecarguy.com/videos?videoid=u2sA-q7_FtQ

My cheap actron scanner does reads some PID's, ignition advance is one of them; is it supposed to be static at idle? I might take a look at it too.

I'm guessing that your suggested method would involve finding TDC for cylinder #1 right? I hate having to do such procedure on this van LOL but I might give that a try too. I just have to get ahold of a vacuum gauge, I've seen them at autozone but they are around $85 over here, I was about to buy one but ended up spending the money on repairs for my Pontiac... It's definitely worth owning one.

Oscar.

Oscar do you have a scantool that reads live data including timing?

On my 3.0 Vulcan I can see the timing changing while idling with the scantool , I fiqure that is telling me the chain has some play but I do not hear any chain noise at all, 230k on engine and never touched. My scantool is a OBDCOM software for a Laptop.

I do not know if this would work or not, could be worth a try. Find TDC usng a vacuum gauge , then use a marker of sme kind, (I use white out as a marker)
Put a mark on the engine block and a mark on the harmonic balancer and see if the mark jumps around while idling with a timing lite.

On the Windstar, the ignition timing advance is controled by the PCM and this one read the data of the CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR only, not the camshaft position sensor for the ignition timing advance. Because it doesn't have distributor. So a problem with the chain will not affect the ignition timing advance, and the timing light will not warn him about a bad timing chain adjustment, a damaged chain; it will always point the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley or harmonic balancer. So the mark will not jump.

The timing advance change automatically because the PCM modify it electronically with the engine load and rpm, fuel mixture... etc, not because of a loose chain.

Oscar I am not familiar with the 3.8 engine, I would try finding the pointer and mark on the harmonic balancer (I believe that is what 12Ounce means by cranckwheel).
Would removing the passenger wheel so you can see the balancer and front cover be helpful. (Hopefully someone can verify this)

I believe the timing should stay steady at idle.

Yes you would need to find TDC on #1 clyinder to line up marks.

Harbor Frieght has Vacuum gauges that are like $20, I do not know what shipping would cost you tho. Hopefully 12Ounces way works for you, that would save you some $$$$.

PS: Just read Serge's post so if I am understanding correctly that a engine that does not idle at a constant (example 700RPM) the the timing be will changed by the PCM as the rpm's change.

PS: Just read Serge's post so if I am understanding correctly that a engine that does not idle at a constant (example 700RPM) the the timing be will changed by the PCM as the rpm's change.

Exactly. So checking the timing advance will not tell if the chain is bad or not. Chain affects the valve opening and closing only.

To check if the chain is loose or not, you should open the chain cover and rotate the camshaft sprocket to see if there's play.

OK thank you guys, I really appreciate your input.

In that the case I will remove both valve covers and see if there is any play. If nothing relevant is found, I will then get ready to remove the front cover.

Oscar.

Yes, "crankwheel" = harmonic balancer. (Nothing like dating yourself!)

Looking at the harmonic balancer, the pointer is near "10 o'clock".

Ok guys, I just found this. I know it's for an engine that has a distributor but since these 3.8's have a cam synchronizer which replaces the distributor, it could serve the same purpose for this test.

Slowly turn the crankshaft pulley in a clockwise direction. Watch the distributor and observe that the rotor is moving. Stop turning. Now - mark the damper pulley position with the chalk or observe the degree wheel. Very carefully turn the crankshaft in the other direction and VERY carefully observe the rotor in the distributor. The instant it begins to move STOP turning and mark the crankshaft position again. Measure the number of degrees of rotation of the crankshaft. If there is a lot of slop in the chain then you will have moved the crankshaft ten or fifteen degrees (or more) before taking the slop out of the chain after the reversal before the camshaft began to turn. Get the picture?? If all is well and there is no slack in the timing chain then you will see about three to five degrees of "reverse motion" before the distributor begins to turn.

Seems like a good idea, isn't it?

Oscar.

IMO it is worth a try to check it out.

I think that procedure is written for an engine that has the distributor driven off of a cam, which is in-turn driven by a chain off the crank. Honda made some engines of this design.

But, I think, (bad to get old and forgetfull) that the 3.8's synchronizer ("distributor") is gear driven directly off of the crank. I may be wrong ... and am too lazy at the moment to look it up.

At any rate, I have used a plastic rod to reach down thru #1 cyl spark hole to "feel" the piston top as the engine is hand-rocked back-and-forth across TDC to verify markings on the harmonic balancer. A similar procedure that I know works.

According to my 98 thru 02 CD the syncronizer gear is attached to the camshaft along with the timing chain gear.

I do not know how to attach picture from CD so if someone could help me out with this I will try posting the pic.

Yeah, the more I think of it ... the synchronizer is not long enough to reach the crank, it must connect with the cam. Gettin too old for this stuff! Seen too many engine insides, they all get muddled together.

Yes the synchronizer is driven by the cam.