A new noise coming from engine compartment

I know the synchronizer turns with the cam which is connected to the crankshaft with the timing chain. That's why I decided it would be a good idea to use such method and wanted to share it with you guys and see if you had any opinions.

I will paint a mark on the harmonic balancer and turn it until the synchro starts to move and will stop at that point; write a second mark anywhere I can (on the timing cover) and then start turning the crankshaft in the opposite direction until the synchro starts to move again, and paint a second mark on the cover. Then I will measure the distance between both and calculate the degrees. That should surely give an idea of how much slack there is.

I might try all this during next monday if everything goes well.

Oscar.

Well, that will tell you how much "slack" there is for sure ... and hopefully not much. Remember that there is a chain tensioner at play here, and some tensioners have a hydraulic force component that depends on engine oil pressure.

But at any rate, if you detect chain slack (and don't forget the gear slop) it bears further study.

Hi guys, today I removed both valve covers and the first thing I found was that there is NO adjustment for the rocker arms; I took a few pictures and I wonder if according to them anybody would think that this engine is too dirty or not on the inside.

http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/822/img2013030400559.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/img2013030400559.jpg/) http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/803/img2013030400558.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/img2013030400558.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/600/img2013030400557.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/img2013030400557.jpg/) http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/546/img2013030400554.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/img2013030400554.jpg/)

http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/717/img2013030400553.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/img2013030400553.jpg/)

After removing each cover here's what I found: some of them had side-to-side play on them. I decided to remove the bolt and re-torque them, they were snug during a few minutes until the lifter bled-off and was loose again. I don't think this is normal but since I'm not an expert here, I would really like to know your opinion.

Front valve cover
http://youtu.be/UpylkzLruh4

Rear valve cover
http://youtu.be/8IZbi7ek6T0

I also rotated the crankshaft but didn't take a look at the synchro as I needed to remove the PS pump in order to remove the CMP sensor, I didn't have enough time to do it; instead I decided to take a look at the valves (since the cover was removed). After several tries, I couldn't find much difference (play) between the movement of the crankshaft and the movement of the valve(s), both moved almost instantly. I couldn't fully test it to measure the degrees but will try again within the next days.

PS. Anybody has any idea what this thing on the alternator is for? The wire seems a bit stressed.
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/5/img2012061300104h.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/img2012061300104h.jpg/)

Thanks in advance for any comments.

Oscar.

No adjustment ... who wudda thought!

The rocker arm "play" in the videos looks perfectly normal to me.

The device on the alternnator is a capacitor, I believe. Usually placed there for the benefit of the radio tuner ... if you have a lot of static on AM radio, you may want to replace. They do age.

The engine is very clean, with clean oil inside!

No adjustment ... who wudda thought!

The rocker arm "play" in the videos looks perfectly normal to me.

The device on the alternnator is a capacitor, I believe. Usually placed there for the benefit of the radio tuner ... if you have a lot of static on AM radio, you may want to replace. They do age.

Thanks man, that's what I thought about the thing on the alternator; my Lincoln has two of those, with a totally different shape, mounted on each one of the ignition coils.

The engine is very clean, with clean oil inside!

Thank you Serge, I've seen some other pictures of engines and they seem to be cleaner than this one, I really wanted to know how "neglected" this engine was, if any. It will sound cheap, I know, but do you think I could recover and reuse this oil after fixing whatever is wrong with the chain or tensioner?

****

So, if you say that the side-to-side play is normal, I guess the next thing will be removing the front cover (DAMN!, I really wanted to avoid having to do that LOL). My manual only shows the procedure for the 3.0 engine but I'm guessing it should be the same, just need to loosen the engine mount and raise the engine to reach all of the bolts?

Oscar.

3.8L timing cover removal:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7009237&postcount=17

Thanks man!

Didn't think of taking a look at the 2001 procedure. It's funny that they didn't put it for the 2000, I mean, It's the same DVD!

Oscar.

You didn't perform the test of 12Ounce to test the lifters.
Placing a thick feeler gauge under each rocker arm while the engine is idling. If the noise changes noticeably while the gauge is probed in place ... you may have found a noisy lifter.

Just testing the play of the rocker arms don't tell you that the lifter are good or not. It just tell you that the bolt is properly torqued. Lifter can be worn out.

Thanks man!

Didn't think of taking a look at the 2001 procedure. It's funny that they didn't put it for the 2000, I mean, It's the same DVD!

Oscar.

You mean there's a typo in the workshop manual? Say it ain't so! :loser:

You didn't perform the test of 12Ounce to test the lifters.
Placing a thick feeler gauge under each rocker arm while the engine is idling. If the noise changes noticeably while the gauge is probed in place ... you may have found a noisy lifter.

Just testing the play of the rocker arms don't tell you that the lifter are good or not. It just tell you that the bolt is properly torqued. Lifter can be worn out.

Oh, OK!

I didn't know that, I thought that as long as it didn't have any play it would be the same whether engine was on or off. I'll test it that way; do you think that oil will start spilling off of the heads? I'll get some pieces of cardboard to put it on the lower side of the head instead of the valve cover. Thanks!

You mean there's a typo in the workshop manual? Say it ain't so! :loser:

The DVD I have includes 2000-2004 but if I look at the 2000 manual it will only show the procedure for the 3.0 and looking at the 2001 will show it for the 3.8 . Weird...

I just watched your first videos about the engine noise and make searches, and I find out it's a dull noise so it seems to be a piston slap noise.

Same as these one:

4Aaz5wNM3vI

geDRmNKH0Pg

n8LiJGXcoLQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Aaz5wNM3vI

But the noise is much louder at bottom of the engine. It's your case?

Thank you Serge, I got a bit scared when I read "piston slap" in your reply however I must say that it DOES NOT sounds like my problem; it sounds pretty much the same in the entire engine bay but when probing with the stethoscope it is more noticeable close to the pulleys and happens ONLY at HOT Idle.

I found these videos in another forum and that's the reason why I decided to take it to another mechanic, that was when he pointed to a valvetrain problem; I also asked this guy Scotty Kilmer who has a channel in youtube and he said that it actually sounded like "worn lifters, typical of a Ford that old..."

These are the videos I found (I haven't figured out how to use the embedded player) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XsdOG8nRIg&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rtl5LQxA9LE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jonBvjbrz70

Unfortunately the owner of those videos still has no definitive answer yet.

Oscar.

No your engine doesn't make the same noise as the Acura TL. The Acura TL makes a high pitched metallic tapping noise. Your's make a dull metallic grinding noise and it doesn't become more rapid or noiser when you rev up.
And I'm 100% sure that yours make a piston slap noise. 100%.

Raise your volume and check your video at 0:51
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05A3M9MJNHo

And then reduce the volume and check the Ford Ranger piston slap noise at 0:05

n8LiJGXcoLQ

You see? It's the same noise.

I've listened to your noise when it's cold, hot, w/ serpentine belt, w/o serpentine belt, rev up, idle, and it's ALWAYS the same noise.

In the Chevrolet Silverado and Trailblazer video it's also the same noise, but you should focus on the piston slap noise, there's also other noises like the fans' motor, pulleys, pumps... of the Chevrolet that interfer a lot with the noise I want to show you. On the 1st Chevrolet video, watch the end of the video (1:45+), and focus on the piston slap noise (the dull noise under the truck).

Oh man, I know what you mean! I appreciate that you took the time to watch those GM videos; unfortunately that's not the noise I'm talking about. That one is coming from the steering pump (there is a TSB about it) and I even made a thread about it long ago. It was until I started this current thread and I bought the stethoscope that I realized it was coming from the pump and that's why I never commented about it. It also seems to happen more during electrical load (if I open/close the windows or the cooling fans come on; you can even notice that it in the video with the fans).

I'M VERY SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION.

In this video you can hear the noise I'm talking about, it is present during it's entire length and seems to happen about 4 times per second; that one is my real concern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19EaaVheFfA

Thanks again Serge and I really apologize about this situation.

Oscar.

Ok, it's why in your videos I noticed 2 different noises.
But even in this Windstar video 2, it's still the same as the Silverado.

Check the Silverado video at 1:44

4Aaz5wNM3vI

Then check your video at 0:31

19EaaVheFfA

It's the same noise.

I'm still hesitant to think that it sounds the same or that the problems is piston slap, man. In the GM video, there seems to be a rattling along with the tapping noise...

I've been googling it and:

1) It is a general consensus that piston slap will be louder when cold and might diminish when hot as metal expands. In my case it is the total opposite.
2) It is said that it will cause the engine to burn oil; mine does not burns a noticeable amount of oil, just the regular being pulled through the PCV valve into the upper intake (maybe a quart AT MUCH between oil changes).
3) Piston slap noise is constant and does not seems masked with higher RPM's; mine is, Sometimes I can raise the RPM's a little and the noise will return until about a second after it's back to idle speed.
4) It would also cause higher emissions because of the burning oil and lower compression. After I changed the oil and had an emissions test, all levels were lower than 6 months earlier and the guy was amazed with the results; he said to have seen newer cars with way higher values.

I'm sorry if I'm being stubborn but in this case I really don't think it is a possibility.

As always, I appreciate the help!

Oscar.

I just found this video; if I had to choose, I would say that this one sounds identical to my engine (when hot) except that this one is constant and makes it even when cold. It turned out to be a lifter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yteakUCdk5I

Oscar have you by chance tested your tappet clearences while engine is running with the feeler gauge to see if that changes sounds any? I would rule out the lifters and tappets while you have the valve covers off.

I haven't Larry, but I intend to as 12Ounce said in one of his recent posts. I just need some time to do it.

I'm feeling more convinced that the problem could be the lifters but I still haven't ruled out a bad timing chain tensioner as the culprit; I just don't think that piston slap could be a possibility as Serge mentioned earlier today.

Do you have any idea if oil will start spilling off from the heads while engine is running without the valve cover?

I haven't Larry, but I intend to as 12Ounce said in one of his recent posts. I just need some time to do it.

I'm feeling more convinced that the problem could be the lifters but I still haven't ruled out a bad timing chain tensioner as the culprit; I just don't think that piston slap could be a possibility as Serge mentioned earlier today.

Do you have any idea if oil will start spilling off from the heads while engine is running without the valve cover?


Yes I would plan on putting something at the lower end of the heads as oil will run off. If you have some old valve covers around cut them in half and use them or maybe makes covers out of some thin tin plating that you can bend easily. Oil should be running out of the tappets also so you could get a spray of oil there also.

I just found this video; if I had to choose, I would say that this one sounds identical to my engine (when hot) except that this one is constant and makes it even when cold. It turned out to be a lifter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yteakUCdk5I

Ok, so it's the valves lifters. And it's exactly the same noise as the Corvette engine.

Try to put a high viscosity oil treatment with cleaning additive chemical like MMO in oil to cure the sticky or blocked lifter.

Drive for few hours, then flush the oil to remove the carbon deposit.

Then use higher viscosity semi-synthetic high mileage oil with MMO additive again. Also adding a 1/2 quart -1 quart more of engine oil may help to reduce the noise.

If it doesn't work, replace the lifters, or the cam if the cam is damaged.

BTW, I found another lifter noise audio that confirm that it's the same as yours:
http://liquidintelligence115.com.au/media/lifter-sound.mp3

I would "prove" its the lifters before I started changing any out. Yes, using the feeler gauge while the engine is idling is a messy proposition. Plan to clean the engine box later. The noise could be something rattling about in the intake manifold.

Before going too far, I would also do compression test with all plugs removed and throttle plate held open. This is always my baseline measurement before doing anything to an engine.

I'm currently overhauling the top-end of an Escort engine that was running poorly and had metallic noises. A compression test showed I might as well remove the head, readings were all over the place. Loose valve seat was making the noise.

The problem I have with listening to these various sound files that are identified as "lifters", "chains", "piston slap" ...or whatever ... is the recorder just guessing? Or did he actually later open up the engine can correct the noise? Do they ever offer a second recording after the condition is corrected? .... I just tend to be skeptical, sorry.

The mp3 I posted come from Liquid Intelligence 115. It doesn't come from a person who has an unknow issue. Liquid Intelligence 115 sells engine oil additives that cure lifter noise. So they recorded an audio of an engine that had been diagnosed as having lifters problem. But you're right about some Youtube videos, it depends of which one.

Thank you guys,

I plan on doing the feeler gauge check you mentioned 12Ounce. I found the Corvette video while googling for piston slap (thanks to Serge) and he said he had a bad lifter.

Here's the entire thread (has pictures of the bad lifter):
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-tech/2647528-help-with-lifter-tick-or-rocker-opposite-symptoms-of-piston-slap-vids-inside.html

And here's a video after installing new cam and lifters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY8XxKU2_W8

I wonder if you know of any other product that might help, MMO is not available in Mexico and I even read that replacing 1qt of engine oil with transmission fluid would help with sticky lifters.

I can surely do a compression test, I have a tester but I must say that the engine runs great and has plenty of power; maybe an occasional misfire which I'm sure it will go away after I clean the TB.

Ig going that way, which oil weight do you think I should go with? 5w40,15w40 (the one I used before switching to 5w30).

Oscar.

10w40

An engine can run pretty well ... and still not pass a compression test.

If there is no compression variation, and the feeler gauge test reveals nothing .... its time to look elsewhere.

Ok guys,

I found two things, one is the collapsed valve lifter clearance values which, I think, should give some idea (apart form inserting feeler gauges at idle) and I'm attaching the image with the procedure:

http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/853/valvelifterclearance.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/853/valvelifterclearance.png/)

The second is quite an interesting thing; I've found that I actually have two similar noises a few milliseconds apart from each other. I was running the audio through an audio editor and realized that after listening to it at half the speed. I was trying to find a relationship between the frequency of each "tap" and the RPM's but after several simple operations I can't manage to find any, I must be doing something wrong (yeah, lazy people tend to do crazy things lol).

This is the link to my dropbox folder with the MP3 file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1n637rrq0bz4fq/WindstarNOISE.mp3

Now, I don't know what the hell would that mean but just wanted to point it out. Maybe the push rod tapping on the rocker arm and the valve stem pushing back on the rocker arm?

Oscar.

It's the half of the speed? It's very slow! I calculate only 171 beats per minutes, it's very slow. Your idle should be very slow I guess.

About the 2 noises, I think it's normal. It should be when the lifter opens and when it closes. It doesn't stay open for a long time.

It's the half of the speed? It's very slow! I calculate only 171 beats per minutes, it's very slow. Your idle should be very slow I guess.

You're right Serge, I think it was 1/4 of the actual speed, maybe even less. I was fiddling with it as I just downloaded that application yesterday. Idle is about 750 RPM's.


About the 2 noises, I think it's normal. It should be when the lifter opens and when it closes. It doesn't stay open for a long time.

That's what I thought, kinda what I meant to say in my previous post.

Oscar.

H guys,

I haven't done any progress yet, there have been some health problems in my family and it needs to be taken care of first.

I was talking to a guy I met the other day and he said that if the lifters turn out to be the problem, I would need to replace all of them ALONG with a new camshaft as they are machined to fit, and that installing only new lifters would wear the camshaft and with the amount of work involved to replace the cam, I would be better leaving and driving it like that...

The Ford manual does not mentions anything about it and I've never heard anything like this, it's not that I have lots of experience anyway but I find it a bit odd.

Is this true?

Oscar.

Yes it's true.
It's a good idea to continue driving like that, since lifter noise doesn't affect engine life.
But I recommand you to try to reduce the lifter noise by changing oil, and add an oil additive like I talked about.

You need to find someone else to talk to. Replacing all the lifters and the camshaft is pure BS... unless a close inspection dictates the need!

As I mentioned, I just happen to be in the process of replacing a head on a well worn Escort. Had the first start-up two days ago ... and there was a discouraging noise! I was afraid it might be a loose valve seat ... so I drove it down to the engine repair service that had repaired/swapped the head...to let the expert have a listen. He assured me it was lifters, and gave me three loose lifters to experiment with. These three lifters were empty of oil and easy to compress by hand.

NOTE: NEW INFO FOR ME :: He suggested if I found any lifters in the engine as easy to compress as the loose ones he had just given me ... that those lifters should be replaced.... because, he said: "lifters, in a engine recently run, should stay extended and nearly impossible to compress by hand".

I removed the valve cover, loosened the rockers, and began pressing the lifters while they were still in place. It was very easy to find a lifter that was completely collapsed, no extension whatever. I replaced it and two others that looked somewhat suspicious. The cam lobes that I looked at looked very good with no markings. The lifter tops and rollers also looked good. The engine now purrs with a healthy sound.

I suggest you drive this vehicle to a cyl head repair service and let them listen and give you some advice.

I agree with 12Ounce

Yeah you both are right, I just search info on Windstar lifters, and I found out that Windstar has roller lifter type, not flat tappet lifters.
On flat tappet lifters, you have to change the cam with all the lifters. But on roller lifters of the Windstar, you can only replace the bad lifter (but still inspect the cam lobes for pits or bad spots).
Because it rolls over the lobe, it doesn't have to mate. That's good new.

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Ford-Lincoln-Mercury-5-0-5-0L-302-351W-Hydraulic-Roller-Valve-Lifters-Set-16-/21/!BtK,bPQEWk~$(KGrHqQOKi!Eu2nMceiWBL6)4,3+Dg~~_12.J PG

Thanks you guys I really appreciate you answers.

I met the guy while waiting for the doctor; he seemed very experienced and from Serge's second response, it looks like he was partially right and didn't know that these are roller type.

I tried to compress them the day that I removed the valve covers but I couldn't, likely because I didn't remove the rocker arms as your mechanic said. I read about that test but it didn't mention anything about the rocker arms.

Serge, your picture reminded me of when we rebuilt this engine, those are the exact type. The first time it overheated we replaced all of them but the second we didn't. I remember I kept the old ones until 2008 when we moved to a different city.

12Ounce and Larry, I will try to find a reputable shop, which is very hard around here. Most of them, if not all, will charge an arm and a leg to almost fix one thing and brake a few more.

When my mother starts to feel better I'll take a look at it; hopefully it will be the lifters (nothing is confirmed yet!) And it will be cheaper to fix; medical bills aren't cheap, you know! Specially when you have no regular job.

Oscar.

I tried to compress them the day that I removed the valve covers but I couldn't, likely because I didn't remove the rocker arms as your mechanic said. I read about that test but it didn't mention anything about the rocker arms.

To do this test, you should rotate the crankshaft until the valve of the lifter you are testing move down. Because the cam lobe should push the lifter in order to test them. You should repeat this step to each lifter for each test. Then you press on the rocker arm above the valve.

Hi guys, it's been a month since the last time!

Had been taking care of my mother as she had to undergo surgery but she is better now and today I got to take a look at the Windstar.

I didn't check for collapsed lifters; I understand from Serge's post that I should rotate the camshaft so the lifter I'll be testing rests on the "flat" part of the camshaft and the spring is in its relaxed position, valve is closed. Is this correct?

I probed on the valve covers with my mechanics stethoscope and found out that 5 lifters make a tick noise, which I would say seems normal and healthy BUT on cylinder 2 there is a lower pitch CLACK, CLACK. It is definitely different than the rest of the cylinders and becomes less noticeable as engine runs.

I probed on the timing cover and even when cold I was able hear the tapping noise originally discussed, it seems more audible when probing behind the water pump TOWARDS the camshaft.

What do you guys think?

Oscar.

I didn't check for collapsed lifters; I understand from Serge's post that I should rotate the camshaft so the lifter I'll be testing rests on the "flat" part of the camshaft and the spring is in its relaxed position, valve is closed. Is this correct?

No, lifter should rest on the spike part of the camshaft lobe and the spring should be compressed, valve opened.

No, lifter should rest on the spike part of the camshaft lobe and the spring should be compressed, valve opened.

Oh OK, thank you Serge. What do you think about the sound on cylinder 2; do you think it could be the source of the problem? Wish I could take a video, but it's not possible to catch the noise from the stethoscope with a cellphone.

Yes, it could the source of the problem. It'll be a good idea to replace these 2 lifters for this cylinder.

No, lifter should rest on the spike part of the camshaft lobe and the spring should be compressed, valve opened. Then you press on the rocker arm above the valve.

When you do this test, you should NOT be able to press on the rocker arm above the valve. If you can press on it, the lifter is bad.

Yes, it could the source of the problem. It'll be a good idea to replace these 2 lifters for this cylinder.

When you do this test, you should NOT be able to press on the push rod. If you can press on it, the lifter is bad.

Thank you Serge, I will do the test in the next days and see what comes up first, I might end up needing more than just 2 lifters. After that I will replace whichever lifters I have to.

Actually I made a little mistake. In order to test the lifters, you should NOT try to push on the push rods, but on the rocker arms above the valves instead. You should press hard. If you're able to push the valve when it's opened (spring compressed), then the lifter is bad.

Before rotating the crankshaft, try to fully press on the rocker arm above the valve just to see if you can compress the valve spring. Then you know how much force you should apply to perform this test. If you cannot push the valve when it's closed, then this test cannot be performed.

Thank you Serge, today I took it to another mechanic and unfortunately the noise did not happen at all, what a coincidence!

I described as best as I could and he said it kinda sounded like bad lifters but told me to come back if the noise appeared. It didn't at all; I'll test the lifters next week when 'll have some time.

As a side note, it was time for it's smog test and passed with flying colors...

Oscar.

Hi guys, it's been a very long time LOL.

We had some health problems at home and money was short but I managed to finally replace those tapping lifters that I mentioned in an earlier post; unfortunately it didn't solve the problem. I kept probing around and this time even jacked the front end after I took it for a drive so the noise would appear and the noise seems to is definitely audible the most when probing on the oil filter adapter.

I remember 12Ounce mentioned a valve behind the oil pump, which seems to be my problem. I have a few questions:

What actually causes it to fail?
Are there any side effects that might arise because of it?
Is there any way to repair the current one or is replacing the entire pump the only option? I've found that the valve only comes with a complete pump assembly (no rebuild kits around here).

I'm pretty sure that I'm missing other interrogants but I'm feeling a bit tired and can't think right at the moment. Please let me know if any of you has any other thoughts or some pertinent info regarding that valve.

As always I appreciate your help.

Oscar.

Yeah, the valve is probably not available separately ... but it might be. I imagine most folks who replace the pump do not bother with the pressure relief valve ... as it is a bit of additional work.

The valve is simple ... a spool and a spring, held in place by a metal plug. It is actually part of the front cover, not the pump assembly... but the pump covers it, making the metal plug redundant. If it has failed ... the spring broke. If it fails, there is no oil pressure. Such an important little goody!

The spring and the other two small things are the valve right? Check this link
Ebay Oil Pump (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-OIL-PUMP-3-8-MUSTANG-THUNDERBIRD-WINDSTAR-4-2-FREESTAR-E150-E250-F150-/120880810699?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item1c250ecacb)

How hard is it to replace it, do you think it can be done on the vehicle or will it be as involved as removing the front engine cover?

Oscar.

I can't seem to find the section for the removal of the valve in the workshop manual, do you have any idea of which section it is?.

I believe that if the valve was giving no oil pressure, I would have found out long time ago. It still puzzles me why it happens only after reaching normal temp

Yes, the 2nd piece in your link is the valve.
That could help you:

http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/dodgetech2875/2009-05-25_194714_oilpump1.gif



http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/fordguy4u/2008-03-18_195038_Oil_pump.jpg


http://lrcat.com/images/2445.gif (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=ThrFYjNwAzm6MM&tbnid=fTl7U2M3AyFnfM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Flrcat.com%2F32%2F4%2F45501&ei=KKPDUdXyEqf-4APIj4HgBA&bvm=bv.48175248,d.dmg&psig=AFQjCNGVaqjXrzzcStXWWv8RTDxephaZkA&ust=1371862114552371)

It's very hard to replace. You should remove valve cover, oil pan...

Thank you Serge!

Are those pictures for the 3.8 engine? It could be me but don't look like it. I couldn't find any on my Ford DVD.

No they're not. But they're similar.

OK, Thanks.

I will post back when I have any news; got quoted with $92 for a new Melling oil pump.

Oscar.

Hi guys, I know this a long thread and that there hasn't been much progress. It's been more than a year since I started this thread!!!

Well, guess what? Today I finally started with the oil pump replacement. It wasn't easy to remove because it's too damn cramped and I fought about 2 hours with 2 of the bolts (the upper most ones); it until my mind cleared up that I used my set of 1/4" sockets, YES 1/4", to remove them and off it came.

Here are some pictures of it. I took some measurements and the lash is supposed to be .012", I got .0135". The gears weren't flush with the mounting face of the pump case, upon inspection with my digital caliper, I got 0.007". I found some scoring as can be seen in the pictures.

This is the mounting surface on the engine, it shows some minor scoring but doesn't feels too rough when using my nail on it.
http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/21/6kwi.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/0l6kwij) http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/407/sh6d.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/bbsh6dj)

These are the gars, they had some deep scoring and they were definitely not flush with the case.
http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/15/6cxa.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/0f6cxaj) http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/692/zva4.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/j8zva4j)

And this is the case with the gears removed. It also shows deep scoring.

http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/31/y4zi.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/0vy4zij) http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/545/m2uz.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/f5m2uzj) http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/89/qar8.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/2hqar8j) http://imageshack.com/scaled/thumb150x112/534/wz19.jpg (http://imageshack.com/i/euwz19j)

I took my chances and decided to buy a new unit; after comparing them, the gears on the new unit are flush with the case. Old one seemed to have a slightly larger backlash.

I couldn't finish installing it, one of the bolts won't go in. I kept trying but it wouldn't, I'll try again tomorrow. I wonder if "accidentally" leaving that bolt off would do any harm or cause any leaks?

What do you guys think? As always I appreciate any comments in this "long as my arm" thread.

Oscar.

Believe or not I've reread all 12 pages of this string. Good for you for hanging in there.

Look at the first photo that shows the front cover: I think I see the pressure relief valve down in that hole. If that is the pressure relieve valve, then your front cover is a different version from my '99 front cover, as my pressure relief valve is 90degrees away in orientation from what I see in this photo. In a similar view of my front cover, the camera would be looking straight down the center-line of the valve cylinder. I remember that the front cover went through at least one engineering upgrade during manufacture of the 3.8.

I would suggest you do what is necessary to remove and inspect this valve poppet and spring ... it is probably covered by a screw-plug that is out of view to the camera in this view. Could you make a better image of the valve?

On a different matter ... look again at the first photo: You can happen to see the timing markings on the crank-wheel (I don't know how else to describe this wheel) ... this wheel is better marked than mine is. What luck that the markings happen to show in this photo!

Thanks 12Ounce, as always.

You're right, I forgot about the valve and according to your comments, this is definitely a different version. There is no way to service it without removing the front cover; the new pump came with a new valve, spring and cap, it even came with a diagram on how to install it, which clearly shows the timing cover as removed form the engine. Unfortunately the pump is already installed and I cannot take another picture like the first one but if you still want me to, I can try looking for a good view of the part where the valve is and take a picture, I used my hand to feel and there were no plugs.

I also noticed the timing marks behind the crankshaft while I was working. I saw them shine while I was moving the light to another spot and I was like WHAT?. I have no idea if the timing cover has a mark on it, I believe that if Ford took the time to put marks on the wheel, there should be a mark on the timing cover!

I finished installing it today; to be honest I kept fighting the last bolt for another 2 hours and I just couldn't bolt it down, I lost my patience and decided to leave it off hoping it wouldn't start to leak... When I got to start the engine I held the gas pedal to the floor and cranked the engine for around 10 seconds to prime the oil system, watched for leaks, nothing. I decided to start the engine and that ticking noise over 1500 RPM I would hear during cold starts is now gone!

The new pump must have really helped, I can't think of another reason. I used 15w40... ticking, used 5w30... ticking, new oil pump and 5w20... not ticking! I idled the engine looking for leaks until it reached operating temp and still no leaks. I'm almost sure that leaving that bolt off won't cause further problems. As the temp went up the ORIGINAL tapping noise from the videos began to be noticeable again, but not as loud as before. Again, the new oil pump must have helped since now the oil was even thinner.

I was afraid that it could be something with the lower part of the engine, like a bearing, etc. Took my stethoscope and probed on the oil pan and noise was very faint, almost nothing. I then probed on the oil filter and the noise was also very faint; decided to probe around while I had one wheel still in the air and the loudest I heard was on the front driver side freeze plug. This makes me think that it must be a worn/clogged lifter as it was suggested before by both of you guys.

If it turns to be it, I'll study my options. I currently can't afford to park it again (it sat for more than a year) because my other rides have broke down (I finally got an oil pressure tester gauge and was wiling to take some readings but with this situation I had to rush and decided to replace the oil pump, not the way I like to work, but at least it helped...).

I was thinking about more frequent oil changes and see if it helps freeing a clogged lifter. A friend suggested an oil flush from "Liqui Moly" brand which supposedly helps with lifters, valves, etc.

I'll appreciate any input.

Oscar.

I ask the opinion of Scotty Kilmer about the 1st video engine noise, and he says it's usually bad timing chain tension and/or worn chain. So you should replace chain tensioner and timing chain and change also sprocket gear and chain guide. Buy the whole kit.

Like we said at beginning LOL.

Check, a guy who have a Ford Ranger 2.3L Duratec had a problem with the timing chain tensioner and his engine make a similar noise of your.

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Whereas on my front cover the pressure relief valve is covered by the oil pump, I believe yours is covered by the block ... and only by removing the front cover could one ever access it.

Whatever the root cause of the noise, the higher flow of oil from the new pump is helping to solve/cover it.