The Army & Wasting Money. (VERY LONG)

[Rich]

I just wanted to release some of the anger I have towards the Government here, and the Minister of Defense, and various other high-ranking military a$$holes. I wonder if these clowns have any idea about how the Army works at all?

Ive only been in the Army reserves for a few weeks, and already I can see why we have no morale AT ALL. The average soldier isnt happy. Yes, the National Defense budget was raised, but the money will be wasted as it always is. Not all units are bad, but I did find the following on a search, and it is actually close to the truth.

**This is not from the unit I go to**

A particular unit in Canada has the following (full-time only) employees:

1 Commanding Officer (A.K.A. the C.O.) ($70,000/year)
1 Deputy Commanding Officer ($60,000/year)
1 Orderly Room Sergeant ($50,000/year)
2 Orderly Room Master Corporals ($45,000/year each)
1 Quartermaster Warrant Officer ($55,000/year)
1 Operations Warrant Officer ($60,000/year)
1 Training Sergeant ($55,000/year)
Total Full Time Salaries: $440,000/year

They get paid salary 7days/week, 8:00 am to 4:00 pm (8 hours a day). Once a week they work 7:00 to 10:00 pm for a parade night. Let's break this down, shall we?

Thats 8 hours/day * 7 days plus and extra 3 hours work = 59 hours pers week! Well, if that were true, that would be working quite hard! However, let's analyze this situation closer...

For those 8 hours a day, a full-time staffer will take 1 and 1/2 hours for lunch and 2 * 1/2 hour coffee breaks (at absolute bear minimum). So they only actually work 5.5 hours per day.

Well, that's still 41.5 hours a week... pretty respectable, I suppose. Is there anything else?

Sure, there is...
The Commanding Officer gives TWO mornings a week off for "physical training." AND LET ME TELL YOU, their ain't no physical training going on here except "catching "ZZZZ." Yup, sleep in from 8:00-12:00 am twice a week... there goes 4 * 4 = another 8 hours a week from our 41.5 hours to a total of 33.5 hours.

Ok, so they're Gov't employees... 33.5 hours a week is a "perk," right? It can't be much less than that, right? WRONG!

Full-time staff, though contracted to do so, never work weekends at this particular unit (even though the part-time reservists usually go on exercise at least once a month and spend 48+ hours in the wilderness... but that's beside the point). So, we've already calculated 5.5 hours for Saturday and Sunday. Slash that off and we're down to 22.5 hours worked PER WEEK. Holy crap!

But there's MORE! Yes, the CO has also deemed it necessary to grant FRIDAY AFTERNOONS OFF!. That's typically from 1:30 (when they usually get back from lunch) to 4:00 pm - another 2.5 hours - gone. So, our total work per week is now 20 hours. Can it get any worse?

Remember when I mentioned that the full-time staff had to work one parade night a week? Well, due to that hardship, the Commanding Officer also gives a WHOLE EXTRA DAY OFF to each full-time staff to compensate. We've calculated that to be 5.5 hours of work. Our grand total is now 14.5 hours of work per week.

And, the C.O. has been known to just "up and leave" whenever he wants... or dismiss everyone for "the rest of the day."

"But this is impossible!" you say. How can they get any work done? That's simple. They HIRE part-time staff in the Orderly Room ($$$$) to take care of most of the paperwork! Isn't that absolutely ridiculous?

So, at 14.5 hours per week * (52 weeks - 4 weeks leave) is 696 weeks worked per year. If you divide the salaries by the number of hours worked your jaw will drop accordingly:

1 Commanding Officer
$70,000/year/696hours = $100.57/hour
(that would be the equivalent of $193,000/year for a 40-hour work week, 48 weeks/year)

1 Deputy Commanding Officer
$60,000/year / 696 hours = $86.21/hour
(that's the equivalent of $165,500/year for a 40-hour work week, 48 weeks/year)

1 Orderly Room Sergeant
$50,000/year / 696 hours = $71.84/hour
(that's the equivalent of $137,900/year for a 40-hour work week, 48 weeks/year)

Orderly Room Master Corporals
$45,000/year / 696 hours = $64.66/hour
(that's the equivalent of $124,100/year for a 40-hour work week, 48 weeks/year)

Total Full Time Salaries:
$440,000/year/ 696 hours = $632/hour (this is how much this units full-time staff costs the taxpayers per hour worked)


There are hundreds of horror stories to tell. I know about a group of soldiers who got paid to sit around the office and play video games! A reserve unit spent $44,000 to buy a network of 16 top-of the line computers to play DELTA-FORCE! A Captain rented a car for a week on the Gov't's bill to drive across the province to visit his family! Another one of my buddies is in the regular force... he get's paid to coach the local city's RUGBY TEAM (he rarely goes to work in uniform and he doesn't go on exercise).

Doesnt sound good, does it? Well, unfortionatly this kind of stuff goes on all the time. Ive seen some examples of that stuff at the local unit. Read on....


The local Reserve units are also in the habit of "blowing their budgets" one or two months before the end of the fiscal year. This includes mostly shit-jobs and "make-work" employment (that isn't necessary) and blowing tons of ammunition at the ranges. Why? Because they won't get the same amount next year!!!

This is true, and has been true for years (I have friends that have been in reserves for yrs.). I dont blame the army for this one, since its government wide. If the budget isnt used up, its cut smaller for the next year. As far as the range is concerned, we arent really allocated enough ammo as it is. Back to the story....


Go to your local Army base or armory... see the ugly-looking medium-sized army trucks? Those are called the Light Support Vehicle Wheeled LSVW by Western Star. They are a 4-cylinder, turbocharged automatic vehicle. They were purchased in 1993-1994 at more than $60,000 a piece. They failed more than 3 subsequent military standards tests (each with lower and lower standards), yet were purchased anyhow. They were plagued with electrical problems (rumored to have been wired by laboring prison inmates) for the first 3 years, had rusting diesel tanks, fuel pumps that needed to be replaced, and now the bodies are rusting out. The politcal reason for buying these lemons: some politican made $$$.

Damn the army for buying these. The LSVW has been trouble, but some units have had good luck with it. I, am not a Veh Tech (Vehicle Technician), or a member of the Service Btn, and I am not trained on the operation of these vehicles, so my knowledge of there mechanical condition is limited. My personal beef is with the overall safety of these vehicles. Tuesday night, my best friend was riding shotgun in a MLVW (Medium Logistics Vehicle Wheeled), when the driver lost control cresting a hill and the vehicle ended up in the ditch on its side. These vehicles are simply not stable enough. I, personally went to the crash scene the next day, and I also saw the MLVW and there was no reason a vehicle like this should tip over. My biggest beef is this. There are no goddamn shoulder belts in the truck! There are only lap belts! How can this be acceptible? Is there no regard for safety at all? I can understand them coming equipped with only lap-belts, but it would have been a useful upgrade to have these vehicles fitted with shoulder and lap belts. Also, first aid kits often go un-inspected, and will be missing vital items when an emergency arises.

BTW: There were only minor injuries to the crew of the MLVW. My friend was the worst off. He had to get 4 stiches on his head. Otherwise, there were minor bruises. It gets worse. If you are still with me, read on...

The forces recently bought a new IRIS digital communication system, replacing the old radios. The standard radio for this package is the R/T-521, a radio that costs, $23,000 each. A flimsy headset for one of these radios, which consists of an earpiece, a push-to-talk button, and a mic costs $800 each (and is purposely built by Canada Computing Devices so that it cannot be repaired, it must be replaced). The first rechargable batteries created for these radios, which cost about $1000 each, were scrapped because they don't retain their charge well. The solution? Spend more money on contracting to another company, make "adapters," and use new batteries ($$$$).

At the heart of the Tactical Command and Control Communciation System (TCCCS) is a computer that allows several radio-trucks to be connected in a network. This special, ruggedized computer costs thousands of dollars... and it is only a 486! The army also purchased special, ruggedized, green laptop computers that cost $5000 a pop... then they scrapped them all because they were too slow! The solution? Buy more laptops ($$$$).

Too true, unfortionatly.

The army just implemented it's new clothe the soldier program. Each regular force member and reservist has received over $5-6 thousand dollars of new jackets, boots, helmets, gloves, etc. The new digital-camoflauge uniforms were put on hold because the original material faded too quickly! The Goretex jackets, designed to operate in the cold, don't actually work! Soldiers overheat in these wonderful jackets during the winter, and eventually freeze in their own sweat!

I recieved one of the new digital-camoflauge uniforms. They are of poor quality. The older, plain green uniforms were much more durible. Other members of my unit that have been issued the new camo have had problem with loose stitching, fading, and poor duribility overall. This is depressing.

Now, I finally realize why the Canadian Forces has trouble getting new soldiers. Its simply because the forces are run by a bunch of morons that need to get there heads out of there asses and have a look around. I, am still proud to be a member of the forces, but it is hard to keep up morale, and to be proud of a organization that is so poorly operated.

[Diesel2NR]

I read the whole thing. That's a lot of money wasted for no reason. Living in the states, I now feel a lot more confident in our military, since it's budget seem to be controlled better. That CO of that unit should be fired in my opinion. In our Army, if someone found out that he was doing that, he'd either lose his job, or his rank. One issue of leadership is managing people, time, and supplies(up to and including money). If you can't do that correctly, then you should have never made it to that area. I also feel sorry for those NCOs (Non-commissioned Officers..the little people) who are out really doing their jobs with obsolete equipment or top-of-the-line equipment that cannot be repaired in the field. In a combat situation, what if one of those trucks stops?? Then you fall under fire and one of you men gets shot. Forget him...Let him die...the first aid kit doesn't work. Then, you radio for help, but holy friggin' crap, your radio doesn't work, and forget trying to fix it. You have to put it in a box and send it back for a replacement with the required payment. Good luck getting it back before you feel a hot round tear through you. The people managing money there are rediculous. And I meant no offense to any canadian by what I said here.

[Rich]

Originally posted by 94 Mustang GT
I also feel sorry for those NCOs (Non-commissioned Officers..the little people) who are out really doing their jobs with obsolete equipment or top-of-the-line equipment that cannot be repaired in the field.

Thanks for reading

Your quote describes me exactly. Soon (after basic), I will be training on this obsolete equipment. Learning how to drive unsafe military vehicles, etc. And on the other hand, being expected to learn new technology, which has been damaged and cannot be repaired or replaced because it will take too long, and / or might simply cost more than the unit can afford.

You seem to understand my point exactly. I want to point out that most units arent as bad as the one in the post, but the government needs to clean this up. Like the issue of reserve units (im a member of a reserve unit) using up there supplies and money that is left just before the budget, so it doesnt get cut. This is government wide, and not just the military. I can understand the reasoning for that one.


And dont worry, no offence was taken. I wanted opinions

EDIT: To read more on a similar topic, check out my thread HERE

[Steel]

No, trust me, it goes on in the US military too.

Remember, everything that is ANYthing made for the military is made by the lowest bidder!

[TheNotoriousMogg]

I am in the US Military and I am a dual citizen in canada, I am about to join the Canadian Army they get paid alot better than me

[Ace$nyper]

My main gripe with the US army is why are are small arms such crap the colt 1911 was 100x better then our 9mm crapreatta and the m-16 was dated before it was on the line! the mexican army uses H&K! not fair!!!! Hell we got the best armed forces though so can't whine too much.

[jcrx]

We use HK's,you just have to be in the right place,and have the right job.

[armydrake01]

I think the fact that you have been in the reserves only a few weeks is interfering with you seeing things clearly.
First, military morale does need improvement but a fairly large part of that is the fact that the military does not feel appreciated by the Canadian Public. The CF has a lot of things to be proud of and they have accomplished them under some of history’s worst conditions (this includes Reserve units) but the only thing the media seem to bring to the public’s attention is what’s wrong with us. e.g.. Not enough personnel, old equipment in need of repair or replacement and any less than stellar behavior. Apparently we are not permitted to have the same problems that the rest of the country has and it seems our accomplishments just don’t sell papers.
Second, some money our way would definitely improve morale but that is unlikely to be coming at anything but a snail’s pace because it is political suicide for the government to give us any handouts. The underlying problem is that Canadians by and large don’t understand what their military does for them and thus see us as unimportant so they don’t support more money going our way when there are things like health care that need it too.
Third, it appears that you have an issue with these salaries. Most civilians of similar training and experience receive similar pay and in some cases more and they do not do so in the conditions we do or with the understanding that at some point they may have to give their life.
Fourth, you state 8am to 4pm and one night 7 to 10pm. With losts of time off. While it may appear that way to a Class A member I can tell you that is not how it works. Our hours are 730 to 4pm Mon to Fri, Thurs also includes the evening 6 to 10pm, at least two weekends that often start 7pm Fri night and end 5pm Sun evening. There is generally very little sleep and lots of work. All so that things run smoothly for the Class A members. For the first two months that I was employed I didn’t have any days off. And We don’t get overtime! When Sep 11 happened we “Stood on Guard for Thee” until it was determined that we were not going to war immediately and had brought in reinforcements in the form of Class A reservists to keep our areas secure. The next few weeks were long.
Although, generally we get a ½ day compensation for the night that we work and one day for each weekend day that we work that is not written in stone. ALL full time members at my unit (Reg or Res) work more hours than what they are compensated for.
The military does not automatically get a certain amount of breaks, breaks are taken when the work is done. Most of us routinely work through lunch but if we choose to and it doesn't interfer with operational commitments, we are entitled to 1 hour.
Physical Training is mandatory, the army/navy/airforce must stay in shape. You can’t fight if you are out of shape. CFAO 50-1. Generally, Headquarters pass down what members are entitled to for training hours. We get 3 hrs per week. However it is a chargeable office to abuse this. Something that perhaps your unit should be addressing.
It is a rare thing to have members standing around drinking coffee instead of working and usually only occurs while they are waiting for last minute changes in plans to be finalized.
I very much doubt that the computers were bought for playing games. More likely they were bought for office work and someone put the game software on them. Also a chargeable offence, by the way.
With regards “blowing the budget” that is correct to a point. But it is government who makes that rule and the military has been trying to get it changed for some time. You don’t just lose the amount that you don’t use, you lose double the amount. So if you don’t need the money one year and save it the government claws back that as well as give you that much less again the next year. If something happens and the unit needs it they cannot retrieve it. The unit never gets it back, they have just lost their budget.
With regards tons of ammo, if you don’t want it we do!! We never have enough for our training needs. If your unit is up to strength and everyone is going to the range then you shouldn’t either.
Don’t confuse the issue, TCCCs does not need a powerful computer for what it does but it does need to be ruggedized. It is after all for war. As far as obsolete equipment, you should learn this even if you have the top of the line stuff. At some point your life and others may depend on your being able to operate old equipment (hope for the best and prepare for the worst) and for the most part anyone can figure out how to operate the new equipment. It's idiot proof.
When all is said and done we have a damn good military with a lot of good people. We do need new equipment but that will come and our people have proven that their training holds them on par with the world even at a disadvantage. Everything is not perfect but it isn’t anywhere you go. I find it upsetting that you are airing our dirty laundry or more accurately your dissention in a public chat forum in front of the world. This only hurts the military and lowers morale more. Perhaps your energy would be better spent working to improve things. If this is all you are willing to do it indicates a lack of pride and perhaps this is not the career for you. The rest of us are trying to pull together not apart.
"Loyalty Above All"

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by armydrake01

I find it upsetting that you are airing our dirty laundry or more accurately your dissention in a public chat forum in front of the world. This only hurts the military and lowers morale more. Perhaps your energy would be better spent working to improve things. If this is all you are willing to do it indicates a lack of pride and perhaps this is not the career for you. The rest of us are trying to pull together not apart.

Rah-rah-rah

The whole point of this forum is so the membership can vent. Its the perfect place for it to happen.

Sorry to hear that you're running into that shit Rich. I remember how excited you were to go (at least a year or so ago). Give it some time too, maybe you got yourself a in with one of the few cluster fuck commanders that all armies have.

I understand going with the lowest bidder - its how all goverment contracts work. It would be nice however, if the shit at least worked as advertised!

[zebrathree]

Hes right Yogs. This sort of stuff should be taken up the chain of command and not put out in the open.

[YogsVR4]

I disagree. Taking it up the “chain of command” is applicable when there are individual issues and points of conflict. It unrealistic that wholesale stupidity escape the light of day.

[zebrathree]

Do you know how to take something up the chain of command Yogs? If you did, you would know that I am right.

[dodgeMANinjapan]

en3 usn 4 years must say morale is gone i have seen good leaders and bad and they dont work long hours because we dont se what they actually do, i think if they did a better screaning of the people they let in the millitary it would be a better place but there are so many dumb ass senior enlisted members i havnt had to much of a problem with officers they usally get weeded out but a lot of ldo's are worhtless about half, but senior enlisted dont let us junior people get the word up to the higher ups so they dont know how fucked up our leaders are but i have met plenty of both worlds i just think the millitary is to lax and its getting out of hand how much control the senior enlisted man with his nose stuck so far up an officers but or higher ranking enlisted that that us junior people are really gotten shit on but if you go by millitary regs we would be getting treated a lot better and have a lot better millitary but no one wants to do there job they just want to look good by using others and getting advanced of off the hard work of others but there is not much a junior person can do about it and noone really cares about reservists until they get called up then they become important but i dont think it will ever change so i will leave it at that