Should suicide be legal?

[taranaki]

Originally posted by JD@af
Yes I think it should 100% be legal (I am very much a supporter of youthanasia in contrast to living the end of your life constantly in and out of hospitals, or in a nursing home). True, killing yourself may inflict great pain and suffering upon those who love and care about you, but IMO it is your life, and your priorities should be your wishes, which need not reflect theirs.

Not much to add besides that, Kris; you covered the bases nicely above.

I had the misfortune to be involved in exactly this scenario a couple of years ago.....3 years Feb 16th ,to be precise.My good buddy hung himself in our workplace one night because he was having marriage problems.It came as a total shock to us all,as he never let on how badly he felt.His business was doing really well,he was a prominent local charity worker and he had an absolutely unshakeable belief in God and his church.......or so we thought.He left behind 3 lovely children aged 6-10, a sweet lady of a wife and,among others 6 staff members, including myself.

I can't understand to this day how he believed that things were so bad,but I do know that there were several hundred people at his funeral all in varying degrees of shock and disbelief.His family will carry the burden of his death for a very long time,and be changed for ever.His close friends from the business are now scattered,the business having closed.His church buddies,of whom I was one have all suffered a blow to their beliefs.

You may feel that you have a right to end your own life when it suits you,but I feel that you have a responsibility not to.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by taranaki

You may feel that you have a right to end your own life when it suits you,but I feel that you have a responsibility not to.

*puts on flame retardant suit, and makes quick reminder that this is the philosophy forum*
this is the philosophy forum

So you think we should continue living a life we don't want to lead and suffer so that others may be happy? A life that is nothing more than slavery, sacrifcing our own feelings and desiress so that other people who we possibly no longer care about can live in some false belief that we are also happy and that everything is just peachy?


death is an envetiable part of life, it can occur for an almost infinite number of reasons, but has one always has one common part. Its final.
However if someone truely believe they are suffering so much that they can no longer live then as far as im concerned that should be allowed to die. They are no longer serving a purpose and it could be argued thats its in fact an act of cruelty to force them to live.
Iv had 3 grandparents all die very slow and drawn out painfull deaths from a variety of diseases, and I know all 3 wanted to be able to pass away peacefully and in a dignified manner free from excess suffering. Instead all 3 were forced to live longer than nessacry, and suffer the loss of dignitynad personal pain assicated with wasteing away in a totaly helpless condition in a hospital bed.

I also know several people who although young and healthy suffer such severe mental disorders and bouts of depression thier lives are a total nightmare. Pumping them full of drugs does not "cure" them, but turns them into mindless emotionless zombies.
Why should they be made to live a life that to them is pure hell just because we think its the way it should be. We are not in thier shoes, and we are not living thier lives. If they truely feel that thier life is not worth living then we should repsect that desicion and leave them to it.

[taranaki]

this thread has split into two parallel but separate issues.on the subject of euthanasia,I have already posted my thoughts,and they seem to be fairly close to your argument,Moppie.

As to suicide,yes I hold to my original position.Nobody has a life so bad that they cannot improve it by actively managing it.To simply quit it rather than address your own problems is selfish and conceited.Short term depression is one of the most common forms of mental disorder,and is one of the easiest to treat.The hardest part is admitting to yourself that you have a problem,and actively doing something to resolve it.
Splattering yourself on the pavement under a tall building,or stringing yourself up when nobody is about doesn't actually solve anything.I couldn't even guarrantee that it stops your negative emotions,as I have yet to discover the truth of what may lie after death.


Somewhere between your two examples lies a body of people who carry an additional responsibility.When I promised myself to my wife,I actually promised -"for richer,for poorer,for better,for worse."I
consider myself lucky to have been able to stay true to that promise(as best a mere mortal can)for the last 16 years.In that time I have also committed intentionally to raising two children.This may sound a little old-fashioned,but for me,that means doing my best to be there for them until they are mature enough to manage their own lives.There is no date fixed on the calendar that this will happen,but as each day goes by,my children grow more independant,and my responsibilities will change as they mature,diminishing to a point where they can reasonably be expected to fend for themselves.

Until that happens,and as long as my wife chooses to share her life with me,I consider it their right to expect me to make every effort to keep my end of the bargain.If that means enduring a spell of misery occasionally,then fine-for what I have received over the years from them I feel I owe them the effort.Even if life gets to a point where it is unbearable,I owe it to them to take whatever remedial steps I can in the short term,in the hope that a better solution can be found in the long term.The priviledge of being loved is not something to be discarded lightly.

[NismoDrifts]

It should be legal only if youre really disabled, terminally ill, or losing your memory........in these three cases to what extent are you alive? (and by disabled, i mean seriously seriously disabled, i could go into the graphic details of some cases, but i just ate breakfast).

In most other cases, theres nothing the mind can't conquer....

of course this is all just my opinion

[4ndrms]

i tried it once and i'll try it again

[V.S.]

Originally posted by kbslacker


Depression is treatable.

Did you realise that when you said

As for the fence sitters taking the easy way out? i feel thats darwinism at its best. If they want to end their life just because they are broke, and too lazy to find work. Nobody loves them, whatever. Let them go. But again, education woul play a good part in letting them know there are other ways to deal with the hardships of life.

?

[fritz_269]

Originally posted by Moppie
...death is an envetiable part of life...

Hmmm. Although I think you probably meant 'inevitable', it did come out sounding awfully close to 'enviable'...

Everything going OK Moppie? We're your friends, you know you can talk to us. Suicide is not the answer!




----
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2) sudden impulse
3) mental illness

Now I'm not saying that the line between them is always clear, but these are three different modes that need to be treated differently. In my personal opinion:
1) Say I'm sorry and good luck.
2) Prevent it.
3) Attempt to cure, but only if the cure is better than the disease.

And another thing, just from a standpoint of logic - it's stupid for suicide to be illegal - in fact, it's the only unpunishable crime.

[JD@af]

Originally posted by fritz_269
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2) sudden impulse
3) mental illness

Now I'm not saying that the line between them is always clear, but these are three different modes that need to be treated differently. In my personal opinion:
1) Say I'm sorry and good luck.
2) Prevent it.
3) Attempt to cure, but only if the cure is better than the disease.

And another thing, just from a standpoint of logic - it's stupid for suicide to be illegal - in fact, it's the only unpunishable crime.

MY GOODNESS you've made some good points above Fritz Nice going.

I have a little something to add, about the rationalizing of suicide. The Catholic church for most of its history stated that the soul of a person who committed suicide was comdemned to eternal damnation (or something closely related to that). In the last few years, it reversed its position, stating that mental instability was the cause of suicide, and that those who committed the act were not to be held accountable for their actions (anyone who is Catholic, or has a clearer understanding of this exchange than I, feel free to correct me - there may be slight inaccuracies in my post). This, obviously, is a huge reversal in opinion and policy for a large organized body that so strongly opposed suicide for hundreds of years.

While the separation of the Church and State centuries ago in England was a huge change in how the nation was run, contemporary governments usually do not hold religious organizations in even nearly the same regard. That being said, I still find it very significant that the Catholic church reversed its opinion. To me, this is comparable to the plaintiff's position in OJ Simpson's murder trial, when they admitted "okay, many members of the LAPD are racist, but that doesn't mean that they would be incited to plant evidence." Who knows, maybe suicide's legalization, at least in the United States, is more of a possible reality than we think.

[taranaki]

Originally posted by fritz_269




----
I think there is a distinction to be made about suicides that has been missed here: People choose to commit suicide either through
1) a rational decision making process
2)
3) mental illness

Sounds a bit like "catch22" to me........

[Moppie]

Originally posted by taranaki


Sounds a bit like "catch22" to me........

Not if its 3 differnt reasons why people may commit suicide.
There are many differnt reasons, but I think they all fall into the above 3 general catagories.

Your post above as to why you think its bad falls very neatly into the first catagory, You've found some rational reasons as to why people should not kill themselves. This does not however exclude potentialy rational reasons why people might kill themselves.

Whats happening is the debate is turning from argueing whether suicide is simply good or bad, to suicide can be good or bad depending on the motivation.




FritzPrehaps for some death is an enviable part of life. (I mean who wants to live for ever? )
However I did mean to use an "i" and not an "e"

[taranaki]

Please bear with me,Moppie its a long time since I read the book,and I am not a scholar of philosophy

For my own reference,and for the benefit of those who may not know the origin of the phrase, I have tracked down the original root meaning of the phrase 'catch 22'.

Catch 22" has come to mean a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a circumstance inherent in the problem. The original "Catch-22," in Joseph Heller's 1961 novel of the same name, is the catch that prevents a US Air Force pilot in World War II from asking to be grounded on the basis of insanity. The pilot knows that military regulations permit insane pilots to be grounded and not forced to fly further dangerous bombing missions. However, the regulation prevents airmen from escaping bombing missions by pleading insanity by stating that any airman rational enough to WANT to be grounded cannot possibly be insane and therefore is fit to fly. From the novel: a man "would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane, he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to: but if he didn't he was sane and had to."


It seems unlikely to me that any sane person could make a rational decision to end his/her own life.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

[tazdev]

Originally posted by taranaki
.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

who can realisticly state what is normal?

What one person thinks is a normal behaviour another person may see as an irrational behaviour. It is all a matter of perception:right:


I however do agree that any rational person would not make the final decision to take their own life.

As to the inital question I don't think that suicide should be legal, I believe that euthenasia should be legalised.

[Moppie]

Originally posted by taranaki

It seems unlikely to me that any sane person could make a rational decision to end his/her own life.Surely any form of suicidal intent could be classified as a mental disorder,since it is contrary to the normal mental instinct of self-preservation...

Im bearing with you!

I see your point, and its a very good a very valid one.
However Im sure I can think of a situation where someone might make what could be deemed to be a rational chioce to take thier own life.

Take the Kamakzi Piolits in WWII, In Japanese culture what they were doing was considered very rational. Jumping from the top of the World Trade center towers as they burned could be deemed to have been a rational choice by those who jumped.

Under a deffinition of rationality in which it is always bad to want to kill yourself then you have a catch 22 situation with Fritz's list. But if you have a differnt concept of what is rational then its quite possible to make a rational decision to end your life.

[NismoDrifts]

yup moppie

"reality is merely perception, nothing more, nothing less"

[NismoDrifts]

yup moppie

"reality is merely perception, nothing more, nothing less"
-me, but im sure someone else has said it
but until then its alllllllllllllll mine
muahahahahahahaha