Gto

[Thunda Downunda]

quote:
.. and that great F-body design

We've watched from afar at F-body sales, I believe now down into the thirty-thousand region or lower. Despite terrific styling, performance, prices/value and the novel plastic-panel construction they've withered on the vine. Why has the marketplace become so blase about such a stellar bargain? Have buyer aspirations shifted to trucks & rice, or been forced by insurance dramas?

I've read elsewhere (dunno if it's true) that F-body insurance can be three times more than a WRX for example - if so that's interesting, because over here the complete opposite is true: Insurance rates for new LS-1 Holden's are quite modest, starting from low A$1k's or so (depending on model) while even a 5 year old WRX can require A$4k and more, or even be uninsurable.

On another note, I often wonder why GM's 'halo' cars .. their image flagships .. eg: Cadillac, Corvette, even F-body .. weren't and aren't sold and promoted worldwide through their various overseas divisions? I'm led to believe that the above aren't manufactured in right-hand-drive form, even for the UK, Japan etc.

BMW deems its US-built Z3 range important enough to be produced and sold in R/H/D - even modifying them further for our market's unique local registration requirements - but not GM. The Japs bother to for minor niche models like the upcoming RX-8, also the obscure French marques. If slow-selling Lexus (a rebadged Toyota, after all), Alfa Romeo, Saab & Porche (who have sold here for almost 50 years) can turn a profit .. even Maserati (!) .. why doesn't GM bother enhancing it's local offerings and image through select, emotive, US-built models via the well known 'tricke-down' effect of sales?

forgive the rave .. i'm just musing

[Doobiesnax]

Hmm.. 2004, just about the time I will be ready for a new car.. A 2004 Gto will look good next to my '69.. What color for the new car? Carousel Red, of course (Orange). It's gotta match...

[Murco]

Originally posted by Rubberduck83
Sorry, just one more thing. I just gotta say that, while I am happy about the new GTO, I am going to have a hard time getting over the loss of the Trans Am (one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made) and that great f-body design. If only Pontiac could keep that along with with the incoming GTO.

Obviously, you've never driven one for any lenghth of time. I assure you that despite the awesome horsepower there was little to love about the last F-body cars. They rode like crap, made you sit in awkward positions of you were over 6', had NO room inside, had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway that got really old quickly, had horrible seats, the build quality still sucked, and the paint on my 1999 model turned to crap even with meticulous maintenance. GOOD BYE JUNK!!
I hope the GTO does come here, and is good enough in quality too lure me back to GM because I had sworn them off after the T/A and Alero I bought in '99. More crap will not cut it!!

[tyhel]

its been signed, put in stone (and the new June motor trend magazine) that the "GTO is a Go" awsome! these things are beasts from the look of 'em.

[Cbass]

Honestly, I would rather have had the GTO concept from a couple years ago, you know, the twin turbo 3400 TDC AWD Grand Prix? The Grand Prix looks nice. While I'm overjoyed we're getting the GTO, and that it is a roomy powerful car, it looks like it has been in the oven a little too long, if you know what I mean.

This car was just awesome, and it used off the shelf parts. They rolled out the G8 concept, an AWD LS1 Grand Prix, in '96 I think, but didn't build it. However, they brought it out again for 2002, so maybe...

[CopperHed210]

Obviously, you've never driven one for any lenghth of time. I assure you that despite the awesome horsepower there was little to love about the last F-body cars. They rode like crap, made you sit in awkward positions of you were over 6', had NO room inside, had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway that got really old quickly, had horrible seats, the build quality still sucked, and the paint on my 1999 model turned to crap even with meticulous maintenance. GOOD BYE JUNK!!
I hope the GTO does come here, and is good enough in quality too lure me back to GM because I had sworn them off after the T/A and Alero I bought in '99. More crap will not cut it!!



Well,anycar thats not a luxury car rides like crap.What did you meen by"had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway"?If it meens what I think it does,the exaust sound sounds great.It never got old on my dads '83 Firebird.I sat in a 2002 Trans Am and the seats felt like those of a luxury car.And when you said the biuld quality sucked,did you take the car apart and inspect it.When I test drove one,the were no raddles.There was wind noise but like I said,its no Lincoln or Cadillac.And maybe its just yor Firebird were the paint went bad,maybe it was just yor,or a bad polish or wax.The F-bodys were super nice and good cars,well,all GMs are good cars.I wish they didnt stop making the F-body.But Im also glad they did because I here there going to bring them back in about 5 or 6 years and I would like to see what there going to be like when they do come back.

[Murco]

Originally posted by CopperHed210
Well,anycar thats not a luxury car rides like crap.What did you meen by"had a droning exaust note inside the car on the highway"?If it meens what I think it does,the exaust sound sounds great.It never got old on my dads '83 Firebird.
I like a forceful exaust note, but I hate a car that amplifies it through the interior. I also own a 1989 Camaro that has a Borla exaust piping over 500 hp that is a much more pleasant sound.
I sat in a 2002 Trans Am and the seats felt like those of a luxury car."Sitting-in" and driving-in for 3 years is completely different. The seat comfort degraded very quickly
And when you said the build quality sucked, did you take the car apart and inspect it. When I test drove one,the were no raddles.
Once again, "test-drives" and driving one for 3 years is completely different. I did inspect it pretty thoroughly (without disassembly) and found partially tightened bolts, missing screws, out-of-alignment panels, and loose wiring.
There was wind noise but like I said,its no Lincoln or Cadillac.And maybe its just yor Firebird were the paint went bad,maybe it was just yor,or a bad polish or wax.
Wind noise was the least of this cars problems! The paint had dust in it, uneven color depth between panels, and thin spots around the lights.
The F-bodys were super nice and good cars,well,all GMs are good cars.I guarantee I've owned more F-bodies than you or most anyone on this board, as well as other GM cars. Including the F-bodys, I've bought 7 new GM cars over the last 10 years. Over that span of time the materials have gotten worse, the build-quality hasn't improved, and neither has the engineering. Drive a 2003 N-body (Grand Am, Alero, Malibu) and it feels just like a 1983 Cavalier with stiffer suspension.
I wish they didnt stop making the F-body.But Im also glad they did because I here there going to bring them back in about 5 or 6 years and I would like to see what there going to be like when they do come back.

I hope they do get their act together and put out a great car! BUT, it will take a dynamic change in the way GM builds cars and maybe Lutz is the man to do it. The F-body needed to dye, it had become a joke......

[CopperHed210]

It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because. No GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missings screws.Infact probably no car does.

[CopperHed210]

It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because. No GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missings screws.Infact probably no car does.Except maybe a Ford.

[Murco]

Originally posted by CopperHed210
It sounds the Firebird you had was restored or something because no GM comes from the factory brand new with loose bolts and missing screws. In fact probably no car does, except maybe a Ford.

Wanna bet?! The 1999 Trans Am WS-6 I had was purchased brand-new by me 1/4/99 with 6 miles on it. The 1999 Alero GLS I had was also purchased brand-new by me 5/28/99 with 3 miles on it. The T/A had 2 loose bolts on the passenger-side door hinges (found within a week from purchase after noticing some clunking when going over bumps), and the lower dash facia was only held on by 2 of the 4 screws it was meant to have. The Alero also was missing a bolt on the seat-back adjuster, had loose bolts on the radiator fan shroud assembly, and had one of the caliper bracket bolts so overly tightened it stripped the thread when the dealer had to replace the rotors (1st of 5 sets in 20K miles). Do you want to go into the RUST that appeared from under the quarter window about a month after buying this turd?! If you love GM cars, by all means buy GM cars. Me? I have had enough kicks to the back-side from GM, the Alero being the last one. They will really have to impress me with quality and superior engineering to win me back, price is their only ammo right now. You truly do get what you pay for when it comes to cars, that is why the domestics always will have rebates!
BTW - When did you last purchase a new GM car??

[CopperHed210]

hmm,thats strange.I guess anything can happen.That loose bolt and missing screw thing never happened with any of our 5 new GMs.We bought a Pontiac Grand Am brand new and that has 219k miles on it and its still going with no problems.We had a Boneville that went to 267k miles before it started haveing problems.

[Murco]

Originally posted by CopperHed210
hmm,thats strange.I guess anything can happen.That loose bolt and missing screw thing never happened with any of our 5 new GMs.We bought a Pontiac Grand Am brand new and that has 219k miles on it and its still going with no problems.We had a Boneville that went to 267k miles before it started haveing problems.

Those must have been older GM cars, like the '89 Camaro I bought new and still have. The real problems started in 1991 when GM's head of purchasing was Al Penia and he demanded double-digit cost-cutting from all of GM's suppliers. Well, he got it! The suppliers have been forced to cheapen their parts to the point where it really does show. The brake rotors on GM cars used to be robust and generally considered the best in the business. Now, thanks to the suppliers getting squeezed, GM rotors have a reputation for warpage and brake fade. The newer rotors have much, much more iron in them and they actually rust enough to weaken the rotor face within months. GM's warranty return rate on brakes is the highest in the industry! N, G, and B-body cars suffer the worst from this.
I take no pleasure in bashing GM at all and truly do hope they can "turn the ship around" as I was born and raised a GM guy. This VW is the 1st non-GM car I've ever owned. If my GM remarks sound harsh it's because of expectations that I had for my favorite cars, and the reality smack I got in return.

[CopperHed210]

Actually, the Grand Am we have is a 1995 and the Boneville was a 1994

[farking_funny]

Stop drooling over the HSV pics. You're getting the holden monaro, not the HSV. Which means no body kit and 225kw, not 300kw. Althought it might get increased.

[Murco]

Actually, that body package is alot more appealing to me than the HSV car. I don't care for the aero-do-dads and like a smoother, tighter look. The HSV, like most cars with "aero-packages", looks dis-jointed to me. And if it has a basic LS1 thats OK too! There are plenty of go-fast parts available for those engines here!
BTW - Being an Australian, could you comment on the reliability reputation these cars have? Any problem areas?