A question for those of you who frequent contests...

[CrateCruncher]

Daniel, I've seen some internet scratch builds of "car models" done by machinists that looked cool but wouldn't hold up under judging at an IPMS event. Most of the items looked clunky and out of scale. Is that the point your making?


A few years ago I saw a 1/16th scale Fokker D8 in the bones that was totally scratched from plastic sheet and rod. It was stunning and it won the show. I believe last year the Nationals winner was a scratch built Mercury or Gemini stack.


Just before our Austin show last year, a senior member of my club made the point to the judges that scratch built is a separate category but must be totally scratch built, 100%. Partially scratch built models go in their respective category with the other detailed kit models. (EDIT: I just glanced at the 2011 Nationals categories and notice they use the words "scratch-built and conversions" for automotive)


I haven't ever seen more than one scratch built entered in the scratch category at a show but it's a rare builder that takes that path. Yes, each time they won their category. So what? They always won the show too! Nationals usually have multiple scratch-builds competing.


It's obvious how to win best auto or best ship. You make a near flawless example dripping with details. Winning a "Judges Best of Show" or JBS, is a different award however. That is the model judged from the group of "Best of" models that has the highest "Wow Factor". It might be an incredible paint job. It may be an expertly carved facial expression or something so complex it mesmerizes anyone that contemplates it.


Since the scratch category is by itself it gets a shot at "Best of". Then, after winning "Best of" it gets a shot at JBS. JBS really isn't about basic skills anymore though. That stuff gets stopped at the category level for most models. Those lonely scratch entries would get stopped at the "Best" threshold for poor workmanship.

[Veyron]

Why are IPMS shows doing so well if judged shows are "a thing of the past"? The last two I've been to have been over 600 entries with over half each being cars. These are fully "judged" shows...

Not really sure because I don't know where and what type of IPMS shows you're referring too.Was it the only game in town? Access to larger modeling populations? There could be lots of reasons...but my guess is there are less overall shows these days so certain contests get concentrated....the other reason is there are still 'trophy hunters' out there. Taking two examples isn't very convincing....in addition I have attended plenty of both and prefer NNL...so we aren't going to change each others minds. I was just addressing your 'scratchbuilt' question.

Several years ago in the southeast there were 7 or 8 fairly major annual shows/contests....now there are basically 2 or 3.

If you want trophies I have boxes full I'll give you....I'll give you all of them EXCEPT for the ones I got at NNL shows. Those are much harder to come by and much more rewarding IMO.

I'll close with this. Take five models to five different contests judged by five different sets of judges....and you'll likely get five different results. More often than not judges are chosen at the contest because there isn't a real appointed panel of judges and invariably one or two of the 'chosen' know how to spell 'model car' and may have built a few...but they aren't professional judges by far.

To each his own.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

you are making a statement that suggests that a fully scratch built model would always win.
that suggests that even if the fully scratch built kit isn't up to scratch, it would still win.
it also ignores the fact that if the guy can make a full model from scratch, if he decided to "just" build from a kit, it would probably still win.

the point is, the best model won, no?

why do you insist it is a different discipline?
is there anything they do that you don't do (or can't do) when building a kit?

if you insist that it is different and that it should be a different category then why do you say that those other categories that I suggest aren't valid?

I have seen that a fully scratchbuilt model that has significant enough flaws to not win in IPMS shows has won handily in car-only shows. This is why I make this statement. Thus, the best model does NOT ALWAYS win. My first statement makes no implication on the builder's abilities in general. Just about one scratchbuilt model. That's it. Don't imply other things, as it will not be a valid point.

No, the best (according to other, more documented judging) did not win. The two models that went head-to-head at another show reversed positions and, in fact, the one that won previously did not even place in any trophy position.

I say it's a different discipline because the engineering for a plastic kit has already been done. If you are making your own kit, you have to do it all yourself and thus can do much more and you are not limited by the kit maker's engineering (or lack thereof). I realize that improvements can be made on a kit but we're talking about making your own kit here. If that isn't a different discipline than "just" building a kit, I don't know what is. I'm not just saying this to be dramatic--it is a very different thing.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Veyron

Not really sure because I don't know where and what type of IPMS shows you're referring too.Was it the only game in town? Access to larger modeling populations? There could be lots of reasons...but my guess is there are less overall shows these days so certain contests get concentrated....the other reason is there are still 'trophy hunters' out there. Taking two examples isn't very convincing....in addition I have attended plenty of both and prefer NNL...so we aren't going to change each others minds. I was just addressing your 'scratchbuilt' question.

Several years ago in the southeast there were 7 or 8 fairly major annual shows/contests....now there are basically 2 or 3.

If you want trophies I have boxes full I'll give you....I'll give you all of them EXCEPT for the ones I got at NNL shows. Those are much harder to come by and much more rewarding IMO.

I'll close with this. Take five models to five different contests judged by five different sets of judges....and you'll likely get five different results. More often than not judges are chosen at the contest because there isn't a real appointed panel of judges and invariably one or two of the 'chosen' know how to spell 'model car' and may have built a few...but they aren't professional judges by far.

To each his own.

I was addressing your statement that I didn't think was correct. Again, I'll stick with IPMS, as my subjects wouldn't draw much attention because they're not popular here in the US. (Those being F1 and MotoGP. I've gotten lots of complements, but from a general population voting, they wouldn't get as much as a '49 Ford or something of the sort.) I can see an NNL trophy being rewarding. However, I simply prefer judging. If it was all one category and judged (a la NNL-stlye), I could do it. But leaving it up to the general audience? Nah.

I'm not a trophy hunter. I don't appreciate the implication that I am. I just want fair and equitable competition. That's it.

From what I understand about the IPMS judging is that it's fairly well documented and has standards vs most car model shows' judging. Those play fast and loose and don't have much, if any, 'standards'. That's fine but I prefer something more standardized.

As far as shows, the IPMS shows go from January-May and September-November around here (KY area and surrounding states). I was referring to the Columbus, OH and Indy IPMS shows from this spring. They may be aberrations but most IPMS shows that I've heard of around here are in the 400-600 entry range with an ever increasing number of autos.

[Veyron]

Originally Posted by racer93

I was addressing your statement that I didn't think was correct. Again, I'll stick with IPMS, as my subjects wouldn't draw much attention because they're not popular here in the US. (Those being F1 and MotoGP. I've gotten lots of complements, but from a general population voting, they wouldn't get as much as a '49 Ford or something of the sort.) I can see an NNL trophy being rewarding. However, I simply prefer judging. If it was all one category and judged (a la NNL-stlye), I could do it. But leaving it up to the general audience? Nah.

I'm not a trophy hunter. I don't appreciate the implication that I am. I just want fair and equitable competition. That's it.

From what I understand about the IPMS judging is that it's fairly well documented and has standards vs most car model shows' judging. Those play fast and loose and don't have much, if any, 'standards'. That's fine but I prefer something more standardized.

As far as shows, the IPMS shows go from January-May and September-November around here (KY area and surrounding states). I was referring to the Columbus, OH and Indy IPMS shows from this spring. They may be aberrations but most IPMS shows that I've heard of around here are in the 400-600 entry range with an ever increasing number of autos.

Where do you keep the threads of your finished work, I can't seem to find much?

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Veyron

Where do you keep the threads of your finished work, I can't seem to find much?

I don't keep many threads on them, as my photography skills suck.

There is one here. These are what I feel are my "best", although I do have one new one that is just as good...no pics yet of it...

[racer93]

Originally Posted by CrateCruncher

Daniel, I've seen some internet scratch builds of "car models" done by machinists that looked cool but wouldn't hold up under judging at an IPMS event. Most of the items looked clunky and out of scale. Is that the point your making?


A few years ago I saw a 1/16th scale Fokker D8 in the bones that was totally scratched from plastic sheet and rod. It was stunning and it won the show. I believe last year the Nationals winner was a scratch built Mercury or Gemini stack.


Just before our Austin show last year, a senior member of my club made the point to the judges that scratch built is a separate category but must be totally scratch built, 100%. Partially scratch built models go in their respective category with the other detailed kit models. (EDIT: I just glanced at the 2011 Nationals categories and notice they use the words "scratch-built and conversions" for automotive)


I haven't ever seen more than one scratch built entered in the scratch category at a show but it's a rare builder that takes that path. Yes, each time they won their category. So what? They always won the show too! Nationals usually have multiple scratch-builds competing.


It's obvious how to win best auto or best ship. You make a near flawless example dripping with details. Winning a "Judges Best of Show" or JBS, is a different award however. That is the model judged from the group of "Best of" models that has the highest "Wow Factor". It might be an incredible paint job. It may be an expertly carved facial expression or something so complex it mesmerizes anyone that contemplates it.


Since the scratch category is by itself it gets a shot at "Best of". Then, after winning "Best of" it gets a shot at JBS. JBS really isn't about basic skills anymore though. That stuff gets stopped at the category level for most models. Those lonely scratch entries would get stopped at the "Best" threshold for poor workmanship.

Yes, I have seen it that the IPMS judging caught this but car model shows' judges did not. My point, however, is more that I believe fully scratched cars should have their own category, regardless the number of entries in class. I agree with you about partially scratched cars, as I do that myself. (As well most advanced modelers do the same thing.)

[drunken monkey]

Does making a model from scratch use a different set of skills than building a regular kit and scratch building extra details?
Is there anything fundementally different to what he is doing?

As far as I can see, no.

If a badly made model undeservedly wins then that is a judgung issue.
If judging is appropriate then it doesn't matter if you there are scratch built models in with kit builds.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Does making a model from scratch use a different set of skills than building a regular kit and scratch building extra details?
Is there anything fundementally different to what he is doing?

As far as I can see, no.

If a badly made model undeservedly wins then that is a judgung issue.
If judging is appropriate then it doesn't matter if you there are scratch built models in with kit builds.

I completely disagree. It takes a lot of engineering skills to do a lot of what is necessary. Yes, there are plenty of aspects that are different. Otherwise, you'd have a bunch of people doing it. Are there? Nope.

Your thought on judging is a good one. However, I still think that these are two different animals and shouldn't be mixed for competition purposes (now as CC pointed out, BoS awards are different things but for categorization...)

Seems we don't agree on much around here...

[drunken monkey]

you keep saying it requires different skills and you keep calling it "engineering" skills but have yet to actually describe why/how they are different.

let's see.
you have something you want to make
you collect reference material
you choose a modelling material suited to what you want to achieve.
you make something that looks like your references.

whoa there, that describes any/all modelling.
what do you know, they're all the same thing.

the reason why more people don't do it is because it isn't easy and more significantly, it is time consuming.

[racer93]

Just because you believe it to be so, doesn't make it so.

If you look up the definition of engineering, it basically describes scratchbuilding. Did you hear me use it for building a kit? Nope, because it's not the same thing! I didn't think this was a difficult concept but you keep proving me wrong.

Let's just agree to disagree. I don't know why you insist on coming to almost all of my threads and arguing. Just let it go, please. I have your input and I appreciate it. Thank you.

[drunken monkey]

funnily enough, i could use two of your own lines in respose.

Originally Posted by racer93

Just because you believe it to be so, doesn't make it so.

Originally Posted by racer93

I didn't think this was a difficult concept but you keep proving me wrong.

i post in quite a few threads, some that i agree with and some that i don't.
so are you saying i'm not allowed to post in your threads because i don't agree with you?
does this only apply to me or does it extend to all those who don't agree with you?
do you only want people who agree with you to post in your threads?

how can i make this clearer?
scratch buiding = model making
kit building = model making.

you calling it engineering doesn't change the fact that it is all still model making.
so you say scratch building is engineering?
well in that case, if scratch building is engineering, why do you then draw a distinction between scratch building (engineering) details and missing parts and scratch building an entire model?
if one is allowed then why not the other seeing as you say scratch building is engineering.
it sounds to me you insist on calling it engineering as a means to justify your argument that it is a different thing to "regular" kit building.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

funnily enough, i could use two of your own lines in respose.





i post in quite a few threads, some that i agree with and some that i don't.
so are you saying i'm not allowed to post in your threads because i don't agree with you?
does this only apply to me or does it extend to all those who don't agree with you?
do you only want people who agree with you to post in your threads?

how can i make this clearer?
scratch buiding = model making
kit building = model making.

you calling it engineering doesn't change the fact that it is all still model making.
so you say scratch building is engineering?
well in that case, if scratch building is engineering, why do you then draw a distinction between scratch building (engineering) details and missing parts and scratch building an entire model?
if one is allowed then why not the other seeing as you say scratch building is engineering.
it sounds to me you insist on calling it engineering as a means to justify your argument that it is a different thing to "regular" kit building.

You can't make it clearer--I don't agree with you! And you with me! So please stop with your antics.

First, I'm not saying you can't post in my threads. You seem to appear in a lot of my threads. That's what I said. Plus, you have been quite rude to me (and others in other threads) in posting. Have you ever said *anything* positive towards me or my builds? It's getting to the point of me not wanting to post anymore for fear of getting verbally raped by you or other mods here. I don't mind people that disagree but condescension is something else.

It may be making a model, but it's a different discipline. Yes I am calling it engineering because you DON'T engineer a plastic kit--the manufacturer has already done it! THAT is why it's different. It's simply different and should be treated as such. How can I make it clearer (hat tip to you)?

Please lock or delete this thread. All it's become is just you being, well, you. I guess I'll just lurk from now on. Happy?

[drunken monkey]

Condescending?
I'm trying to discuss this simply and clearly. If that comes across as being condescending then I assure you it is not my intention.
Verbally raped?
I post in most of your threads?
How many threads have you started that I have posted in?
10%? That's hardly "most".
Always negative?
I don't like the idea of posting things to say "I agree", therefore, if I post it will be because I don't fully agree with what is being said so I suppose it is fair to say my posts tend toward "negative". Doesn't mean I don't try to help where possible.
Have I ever said anything positive regarding you or your builds?
No idea.
I do recall making a critique of one thing you posted but that was way back. I also remember you asking a bunch of questions about resin casting that I tried to steer you away from, knowing that is a hell of a lot of work+money for not guaranteed result.
Stop trying to paint me as the bad guy who might drive you away from posting here.


You still haven't addressed my questions fully, especially this:
Why do you consider scratch building (engineering by your standards) details and missing parts allowed but not scratch building a body and/or an entire model?
just how is making a body different to making a rear wing, or body kit, or using an existing shell as a base for making completely new body work?
If the guy didn't use a bodyshell and just used putty straight and sculpted the bodywork, is it all of a sudden engineering?

because it's just come to me; where do you then stand with regards to someoane using a die cast to master a body then scratch building a chassis underneath it?

Finally, the reason manufacturers' kits are "engineered" is because it has be designed in a way to lay them out onto a sprue for manufacture and ease of construction.
A scratch built model is just built/modelled.
The guy who scratxh builds a model isn't engineering a kit, he is just making a model.
Engineering can be sculpture but not all sculpture is engineering.

Surely I can't be the only one who sees it like this?

[racer93]

I'm not wasting my breath or typing fingers on beating this dead horse. It's not going to convince you, you're not going to convince me.