Abortion.

[enzo@af]

I'm tired of this religios stuff....

What are everyone's views?

[Seb928S@af]

I think it is wrong to have a abortion if the girl wants to have sex with out protection then she better be ready for the kid.

[texan]

wow, I figured this would be a topic nobody would want to bring up. Just to ask this first though, what part of the argument are you asking about? The morality of the issue, or the legality? Many people have a different opinion on it depending which part you ask them.

For me, it's absolutely morally wrong, but should absolutely be legal.

[JD@af]

Tex brings up a good point about the separation between the morality and legality. I have friends that have had abortions and have been horrified by those that frequent abortion clinics. Indeed, there are many that look at abortion as an alternative to birth control. They "fuck like bunnies" (sorry, but it's really the appropriate term to use here) in the raw until the female gets pregnant, and then it's off to the clinic. This especially makes abortion both wrong and, frankly, nauseating.

To this end, I think it is murder. Could the fetus survive on its own at the time of the abortion? Depends on the specific instance: in some cases yes, and no in others. However, a more important underlying issue is the legality aspect. As wrong as I think it is, it cannot be outlawed. It's a lesson we've learned many times over in our society.

The Prohibition back in the early 1930's created a whole illegal alcohol industry, and help mark the rise of Al Capone and other kings of the illegal trades. As much as I hate cigarettes (we won't even go into the depths of my hatred here; besides, they are not the issue), I know that outlawing them will create a situation much worse than that experienced by this country during the Prohibition, simply because guns and violence are much more prevalent in our society today than they were 70 years ago. And that's not to mention the number of nicotine addicts out there I am sure outweighs the number of alcoholics this country saw during the Prohibition easily ten-fold. Plus the strength of the addiction that nicotine addicts experience is strong enough I believe to make them very violent and irrational indeed in order to satisfy their cravings.

How this relates to abortion? If we outlaw abortion again, women and girls (let's not forget that a large number of the women getting abortions are merely teenagers!) will go back to hacks with coat hangers in dirty facilities. At least abortion clinics use licensed practitioners that know what they're doing. Perhaps even worse, unwanted children that are not aborted will be abandoned in alley ways, will be stuffed in overcrowded orphanages, or mistreated and neglected by parents that don't want them. This, to me, is much more wrong than taking the chance at life from an innocent fetus. I know there are exceptions, parents who stuck with their "accident" and wound up raising great kids, but I see too many examples of bad parenting on a daily basis to rest my faith in people who don't want kids to be left responsible for raising them right.

A society without abortion is as idealistic as a society without crime. People are imperfect ("to err is human"), and until we are perfect, we need to have abortion as a legal option for our women. Thanks for reading-

-JD

[enzo@af]

Exactly, JD. A lot of people think that by making abortion illegal we will end it. Not the case at all. People will do it illegally, and thus dangerously.
People can argue whether or not it's "killing babies", which I often agree that it is. But, in the immortal words of "butterfly" of Digable Planets "Pro-lifers need to dig themselves, because life don't stop after birth. And for a child born to the unprepared, it might just even get worse".

I seriously suggest everyone run out and get "reachin' (a new refutation of time and space)" and listen to track 9 (as well as the rest of them, it's a great CD).

Later.

[Lizard King]

I'm not against it. I think it should definately be legal, and not just because of the inevitable 'underground' abortion trade that would come about, if it were criminalized.

Obviously its not a desirable thing. The morning after pill is IMO something that should lower the amount of abortions. I'm not sure how this pill is available in the US, but in England its being made available to girls as young as 12.

[Porsche]

I think that it is wrong, because as said by JD it is murder. Yes the fetus is unborn but, it needs to have a parent to nurse it upo to birth. That's why thier's adoption programs.

I also tihkn that if you're 12 and have unprotected sex, you should be ready to pay the price. Myself, I don't yes don't believe in pre-marital sex. :flash:

[TheMan5952]

I think it should be availiable to Rape victims, what about them? I think it should be legal, I think it is wrong but it should be legal. It is there concious that they have to carry it on.

[Porsche]

From that point of view, yes.

[Reaper]

To each his own...

I feel we should be free to do what ever we want with our own lives and bodies. Personally I am sick of the government interfering in our lives. "They" have become way too powerful and the Sheep don't even notice. Stupidity will be the death of us all...

[Spinner]

Legal, yes but used as an out? I think not. I mean rape victims most definitely should have an option to terminate the pregnancy if they so choose, but those who are just carelessly having unprotected sex and just don't want the child are obviously not thinking clearly in the first place if they aren't making their partners wear protection. I hear girls who say they have to force their guys to wear a condom, simple solution: find a man that cares enough and is responsible enough to know how important not bringing an unplanned/unwanted child in this world is. Personally rape or physical danger to the mother would be acceptable terms of abortion. I don't agree with abortions for religious reasons but I understand that others can't be held to my standards nor have I actually been in a situation where this would come up so it's pretty easy for me to say these things. I just hope the need to answer these questions never comes up.

[enzo@af]

Like so many things (i.e. crime rates, violence in schools, yadda yadda yadda....) I feel it ultimately comes back to how the child was raised. Abortions wouldn't even be considered in a perfect world because people would understand the consequences of their actions and use a little common sense.

[Porsche]

I'd just like to say, we had a discussion today in class about wether or not Abortion should be legalized. It was a majority vote that it should be. So many people feel the same way.

In Canada, if you are 25+ (Women) you have the right to have an Abortion with no questions asked. You have to have been seen by more than one doctor and feel that it is your last option.

[verboom]

I think if you've got the balls to have sex with someone, you should have the balls to keep the child. Say it was possible to have rational thought from the moment of conception. How would you feel if your parents decided to abort you? For a brief few seconds, you would feel hate, rejection, and a slew of other feelings. And then your life would be over. What if these aborted children would have grown up to be amazingly smart, and now we'll never see them? Here's something to chew on, probably most people have seen it but...

If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis; would you recommend that she have an abortion?

If you answered yes, you just said we should kill Beethoven. Now I know Beethoven is not the most respected person in the world, but say it was some car designer? Then what?

[JD@af]

You make a profound and provocative point in favor of the pro-life movement here. And it is enough to make me stop and think about the validity of my stance as a pro-choice advocate.

However, after weighing your statements against the rape question, and my earlier post, justifying abortion as a reality in an imperfect world, I do not oscillate in my stance.

Your point is scary, the idea that the smartest fetus in the world could fall victim to abortion and be lost forever. However, I figure that there's just too many unwanted fetuses out there, and that in the face of the overwhelming odds of a smart fetus versus all "the dumb ones," (hey, I said that this forum was not about being P.C. from day one) I figure abortion is a chance that must be taken in light of the alternative of saving all those fetuses that will wind up having rough existences and fending for themselves prematurely.