Hehe. Continue the abortion debate from the Bush vs. Kerry thread here!

[tenguzero]

This topic always interests me- just keep it civil! Few discussions spin out of control faster than the abortion one.

That being said, my view of abortion follows:

I believe in the right to choose. But I also shudder at the thought of that choice being given to some stupid skank who couldn't keep her legs closed. Now, there ARE the instances where it was truly unplanned, such as a failed condom, or rape, or some other action. This is when I believe abortion to be a justifiable alternative. Is it anymore right to allow a child to grow up in a broken/loveless/poor/abusive household? Or perhaps an orphanage? See, this is the essential catch-22 of the whole situation, the thing people don't consider. YOU WILL PAY FOR THESE WOMEN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. If the womam wants to have an abortion and can't afford it, the taxpayer pays. If a woman wants to go through with having the child, you know she'll probably end up opting into WIC or some other aid program, which you pay for. Even though, in the grand scheme of things, and through all the whining people do about tax-burdens from aid programs, YOU REALLY DON'T PAY THAT MUCH. What does it mean money-wise in the course of a year, one less TV/DVD player- so thousands of families who really need it can get the help they need.

But I digress- When it comes down to it, there's really a basic argument to make in favor of abortions (and in particular the 1st-trimester guidelines set up currently.) The fact is, we consider a person deceased when the brain ceases to show signs of electrical activity. This is for the most part accepted. So, it follows logically, that a person isn't considered alive until brain activity commences- at around 12 weeks (or the end of the first trimester.) The potential for life is there, there's just no spark to begin it yet. The consideration here, is that the girls who are the majority of the problem (the idiots who spread their legs and just screw around without caring) are the ones most likely to take the abortion process into their own hands... whether the legal practice is outlawed or not. And that is really bad.

No one likes the thought of cutting short a potential life, but until brain activity begins, the fetus is just another part of the female's body, and therefore her choice to handle how she sees fit. What we NEED, is more education for the he-sluts that go around leaving "deposits" where they see fit, and the she-sluts who spread 'em for these dolts.

Don't criminalize abortion, criminalize being a friggin' idiot.

[YogsVR4]

I'll keep it simple for now. Abortion is the taking of a life. People can sugar coat the reasons as to why a woman would want to dismember that life and have it sucked out a vaccum hose, but thats what it is.













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[2Slow4U_Noob]

I'm not sure if a women being raped and then forced to have her rapists baby is considered suger coating it. Abortion is a sticky subject no matter how you look at it. It's easy to be against it until you are put in a situation like some of these people who have had them done (I never have, but I can imagine what that must be like). It's hard to draw a line on exactly where the "murder" comes in place. Does it occur after the first trimaster? Or how bout once the child is conceived? So would the morning after pill be considered abortion then? Are spemacidecally lubricated condoms or birth controls pills considered a form of abortion? I hear alot of the "what if" arguments used. Like "what if your parents had an abortion" well yeah that would suck but what if hitlers parents, or osama bin ladens parents had an abortion? Or what if your family was murdered from some crack head who grew up in a non-loving hostile family. Wouldnt you wish that his parents had an abortion? I say legalize it and if you are against it then don't get it done. If it's morally wrong then God will deal with them in the end.

[tenguzero]

I understand the principle behind the "taking of a life through a vaccum hose" thing. The very idea is revolting. The problem is, there are a lot of these girls who are the potential bad-mother type, will have it done ANYWAYS, even if it's through a very dangerous, very unorthodox manner. That or they'll just leave the poor thing in a dumpster somewhere. That's a really horrible thing, and with the frequency in which we hear about it on the news, one has to wonder how many more abandoned newborns AREN'T ever found. And this is the logic we're dealing with here. These people don't even possess the moral character required to fathom the idea of just giving the child up for adoption, which while bad in itself, is still obviously preferable to leaving the child for dead- and this is considering the fact that they could get an abortion legally and free! So what would the situation be if it was then outlawed.

I'm in no way FOR the act of abortion, and never would I even consider approaching the mother with the suggestion, nor would I want her to undergo it. But I DO recognize the fact that there are plenty of people out there who, faced with their own personal situation and judgement, could justify the necessity of performing the act. I mean, take the rapist scenario for one: the woman is not given the option of having an abortion performed, and is required to carry the child to term. She then has two options- 1. Keep the child, and do her best despite whatever living situation she's in. For the rest of her life, when people ask her who the father is, what will she reply? "I don't know him, because he raped me while I was passed out at a party." Never mind the fact that there's a good chance the child will possess some or many physical characteristics of the father. 2. She chooses to give the child up for adoption. This seems to potentially carry pretty much the same "what if I'd kept the child?" effect as an abortion would have. The only difference, is that there's now a FACE to put to what was given up.

I just always feel like it's just as "selfish" an act on the mother's part to KEEP a child, knowing she'll have to give it up anyways to a mystery existence, as it is to have the fetus aborted. True there's always the likelihood that the child will grow up fine, and live a perfectly normal, productive life no matter whatthe situation was after his/her birth. But we can no more predict an outcome like that, as we can (seem) to make a clear statement about when life "actually" begins.

YES the idea of a "vaccum hose" scenario is thoroughly troubling, but the prospect of the potential results of an unfit mother carrying the child to term are equally disturbing. This is all providing the child is born healthy and disability-free. I can guarantee you, a mother who doesn't have the sense or intelligence to make a rational judgement about what might happen as a result of unprotected sex, is probably just as ignorant of the meaning of the word Teratogens.

[YogsVR4]

Perhaps a poll would be appropriate. How many people here wish they were aborted? I'll cast a no vote.













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[FireBball972]

Abortion. Is. Murder.

simple as that. it's wrong, indecent, and careless. don't screw around and you won't have a problem.

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

But I digress- When it comes down to it, there's really a basic argument to make in favor of abortions (and in particular the 1st-trimester guidelines set up currently.) The fact is, we consider a person deceased when the brain ceases to show signs of electrical activity. This is for the most part accepted. So, it follows logically, that a person isn't considered alive until brain activity commences- at around 12 weeks (or the end of the first trimester.) The potential for life is there, there's just no spark to begin it yet. The consideration here, is that the girls who are the majority of the problem (the idiots who spread their legs and just screw around without caring) are the ones most likely to take the abortion process into their own hands... whether the legal practice is outlawed or not. And that is really bad.

There is a flaw with your logic! First when brain activity stops there never will be any activity again, but with a child a baby the activity hasn't started yet but it will. Abortion is killing a life that has yet to be given a chance to life.

As you can tell I am against killing babies but I also feel it is not my right or duty to force my beliefs on others. If you want to kill babies it is something you have to live with.

[geofroley]

I for one am pro-choice. Say you're a chick and you're walking home from whatever, when all of a sudden a low-life comes out and rapes you. You were violently impregnated by someone for his sick kicks. You didn't want this child and had no choice. This is one of the reasons why you should abort a child. There's more but I'm exhausted and can't think of anymore.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by Flatrater

There is a flaw with your logic! First when brain activity stops there never will be any activity again, but with a child a baby the activity hasn't started yet but it will. Abortion is killing a life that has yet to be given a chance to life.

As you can tell I am against killing babies but I also feel it is not my right or duty to force my beliefs on others. If you want to kill babies it is something you have to live with.

Something must be wrong.
Once again, I agree with Flatrater.

Abortion is an appaling thought, and is at best a tragic lack of judgement and foresight, and at worst, murder.

I have known a few women who seriously considered an abortion but never had one. They are all universally grateful and happy they had the child and would never consider trading their child for anything. That child is the center of their existence and enriches their lives like nothing else.

I also knew a woman who had an abortion, years ago. Even after she had a couple of children later, she was haunted, in a way, by the loss of the unborn child. Occasionally, when she would be enjoying a pleasant time with her children and husband, she could imagine seeing the aborted baby, as he or she would have been as a toddler, waving at her and smiling, hands extended towards his mommy.
Or, as she would think, the mommy who was so self centered, she killed him, just because he would be inconvenient.

I cannot imagine being in the shoes of a woman considering an abortion.
But after seeing the results, choosing an abortion is a tragedy that will most likely repeat itself, over and over again for the woman who chooses one.

[Ace$nyper]

Ahh a nasty topic but a good debate!

I for one think that it should be legal and avlible to anyone. I know of a girl whos had like 4 cause shes to lazy to bother with protection. thats just fucked.But for all the medical issues and rpes i know a girl who nearly died and having one saved her life *fetus was forming in tubes*

I think that any freedom will be abused by a small group but should not be taken away from the whole.

[dayna240sx]

Originally Posted by Ace$nyper

Ahh a nasty topic but a good debate!

I for one think that it should be legal and avlible to anyone. I know of a girl whos had like 4 cause shes to lazy to bother with protection. thats just fucked.But for all the medical issues and rpes i know a girl who nearly died and having one saved her life *fetus was forming in tubes*

I think that any freedom will be abused by a small group but should not be taken away from the whole.

That girl should be forced to have her tubes tied.

[tenguzero]

That girl should be forced to have her tubes tied.

Agreed!

One thing I notice coming up time and again, no matter if I'm discussing this issue with a fellow pro-choicer, or an equally valid pro-lifer, is that everyone agrees there needs to be much more in the way of education and proactive intervention. While I feel it should be the woman's choice, I always hold out hope that there will some day come a time when the issue of aborting a fetus will simply not BE an issue, because enough people will have smartened up to the point where they've developed a moral reasoning process that tells them, "Hey, you, Numbskull! Use a damn condom, get on the pill, or better yet, choose your partner more wisely before you just jump in the sack with them!" I still feel that, in the case of something like rape, there should be an option, because no matter WHAT, there has been emotional and physical damage done, and a child resulting from it could potentially complicate matters more than just having an abortion immediately after, and lumping the whole thing together into one painful ordeal to work through. But again, most of us on either side of the issue will never face something like that ourselves, and so we really can't make an informed judgement on it.

Alas, I'm not sure that we'll ever see the day when enough people wise up. With all that we know (and have known for the last 2 decades) about HIV/AIDS and other STD's, one would think far more people would heed the warnings, and bring their morals and intelligence to bear in making decisions about sex. But they're not. You can blame the schools, and say it's a lack of, or unwillingness to educate, or perhaps they're using up valuable time focusing on less important things like grades, sports, and the ever important College (don't even get me started on that BS.) You can blame the social times, and say we've gotten to a point in our society where we're just so saturated with options and freedoms and rights and possessions, and at the same time we're losing our moral and reasonable and self-respecting values. Or you can blame the media for pushing ever more sexual and provocative themes on the public, while at the same time slowly chipping away on the walls of "decency." But in the end, you're just left back where you started, wondering "what if." This is what troubles me. I know that I personally wasn't raised in any sort of "strict" fashion at all. Beyond the obligatory sixth-grade Sex Ed and occasional Health Ed classes, I didn't recieve a whole lot of school-backed education on the subject of how truly scary the world of of STD's, unintended procreation, and sexual responsibility could be. But I, like most of us here I'm assuming (hoping,) was nonetheless intelligent enough to exercise and control my impulses. So perhaps it really isn't beyond our control, at least, on an individual level. I mean, sure MTV will show an ad preaching the importance of safe sex, but then immediately after that, they'll throw JLo's undulating hips in the face of the (most likely) adolescent viewer, and proceed to drape some sort of slimy, gold-toothed, horn-dog rapper on top of her.

I suppose I'm going in circles here, but as anyone can see, (and this will probably apply to many others like me) when I say I'm "pro-choice" it's not without carefully considering all possible perspectives, and then weighing them against my own gut-feelings. That being said, I still feel the answer to the problem lies beyond a simple named designation, and resides somewhere deeper within ourselves and our society. The true question shouldn't be about when a life "technically" begins, since all that's been (and probably ever will be) proven in that regard, is that NOTHING'S "proven." Perhaps it should instead be "Why should something this multi-faceted even pose such a grave concern as to beg an analysis from us?" How can the same people - who in such (apparently) large numbers are pissing in the face of sound moral judgement and reasoning by making such poor choices with their sex lives - turn around and proceed to proclaim they know the true solution?

I don't like the thought of cutting short a (potential) life any more than the next person, but what the hell gives me, or you, or you, or YOU the bearing and validity to justify our claim as the potential "law"?

[thegladhatter]

Originally Posted by YogsVR4

I'll keep it simple for now. Abortion is the taking of a life. People can sugar coat the reasons as to why a woman would want to dismember that life and have it sucked out a vaccum hose, but thats what it is.

Amen!

And in the case of rape it is STILL murder! Two crimes are NOT better than one.

Failed condoms? Still murder. Don't have sex (with or without protection) if you aren't willing to have babies. Adoption IS an option!

Health of the mother? Is she willing to murder to live?

[Flatrater]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

You can blame the schools, and say it's a lack of, or unwillingness to educate, or perhaps they're using up valuable time focusing on less important things like grades, sports, and the ever important College (don't even get me started on that BS.) You can blame the social times, and say we've gotten to a point in our society where we're just so saturated with options and freedoms and rights and possessions, and at the same time we're losing our moral and reasonable and self-respecting values.

Try blaming the parents! Its the parents job in raising the children to be morally right, not the schools, not the media just the parents. Go tot he bars less and get involved with your kids, spend time with your kids. Do your job right and you may not have this problem.

Originally Posted by tenguzero

The true question shouldn't be about when a life "technically" begins, since all that's been (and probably ever will be) proven in that regard, is that NOTHING'S "proven." Perhaps it should instead be "Why should something this multi-faceted even pose such a grave concern as to beg an analysis from us?" How can the same people - who in such (apparently) large numbers are pissing in the face of sound moral judgement and reasoning by making such poor choices with their sex lives - turn around and proceed to proclaim they know the true solution?

The "technical issue" of when life starts is only used to justify the issue! The technical issue is how the pro choice people justify the murder of an unborn child. Try using the issue of a life that cold have been and never will be! Techincally your arms, your legs isn't alive by your standards lets cut them off and throw them in the garbage. A single cell life is alive, it is splitting faster them you typed your post.

[YogsVR4]

To all the people who use rape as an example of why a woman would want to have an abortion - thats a rarity. I'll come back to it in a minute.

The bulk of abortions are done over convenience and not because of emotional trauma or health reasons. As its been pointed out, its because of the irresponsibility's of the parents who couldn't keep it in their pants or take the time to make precautions. Its an easy out from there mistakes that terminates a life.

Often we hear the "choice" thrown around. Yeah it's a choice. I am just disappointed that murder was the choice made. You made the choice to drop your knickers. You made the choice to sleep with your partner. You made all the choices that led to this condition. (you being both the mother and father). The unborn shouldn't suffer because of it.

I cannot think of many worse things then being a woman who's been impregnated by a rapist. The rapist should be castrated violently and then die screaming as he's slowly dismembered. Which is what happens when a fetus is aborted - only we cant hear the screams. If the woman makes the choice to slaughter her child because of it, then one tragedy is compounded by another. It's sad all the way around. However, this condition is not typical and shouldn't be used as a justification for all cases. It would be the same as using the one in a million chance that someone was saved by not wearing their seat belt, to justify why wearing seatbelts is a bad idea.

In case some haven't noticed - I haven't called for the outlawing of abortions. I am saying that it's murder. Any woman who wants to have one should know what they are really doing and not fool themselves into thinking that their fetus isn't their son or daughter.

And, I am still waiting for all the pro vaccuum folks to say that they wish they were aborted.













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