This voltage stabilizer helps save fuel

[Andrew84]

Hi guys,

I would like to initiate a technical discussion as well as introduce what my company does.

For a start I was hoping you could go and view this website
[link removed]
and tell me what you think.

It is a new generation voltage stabilizer using ultra-low ESR caps to filter off even the highest frequency electical noise and static in order to optimise the cars electrical system.

[Airjer_]

I can do several things increase my fuel economy for free, no strings, no catch.

There are also several other things I can do as basic maintenance that will improve fuel economy and performance.

So why would I invest in a product that at minimum may gain me less than 1 mile per gallon?

[Andrew84]

For the simple reason that:

1) Just because you can optimize your mileage and performance via proper basic maintainance such as getting your alignment done right, having the right tire pressure, using the proper lubes, checking your spark cables, etc. does not mean that you cannot insist on other means to further improve your car's efficiency and performance.

2) The efficiency gained from using this device comes from the filtering of electrical noise, which is in a different criteria altogether. And the efficiency gained from this method comes hand in hand with other benefits such as slightly improved power, improved engine smoothness, improved throttle response, smoother gearchange, longer lasting electronics and battery, etc. Improved millage is not the only benefit here (if you have actually read whats on the website). But of course, these benefits will vary from car to car depending on variables such as displacement, type and condition of battery, condition of electronic accesories within the car, age of the car itself, etc. And of course, one cannot expect a gain of 10HP just by filtering electrical noise alone in a 150HP vehicle. But the long term ramifications of electrical noise in any vehicle makes it worth the effort to filter the spikes and stabilize the voltage, especially in vehicles with alot of sensors and electronics where the noise in the line voltage will affect the integrity of the signal and calculations within said circuits (and this does not mean that carburated cars cannot also benefit from this device).


I hope that I have answered your questions without any prejudice. That being said, your criticisms does have it grounds. The product has a price (75 USD), albeit a reasonable one given the quality of its materials and design.

[Airjer_]

Unfortunately products like yours come and go. Reason being they never work. The power of suggestion along with a device that gets installed on the vehicle is more than enough for people to start thinking about how they drive. Simple minor changes in driving habits is more than enough to gain lost fuel economy and fuel claims that the device actually works.

As far as protecting electronics, I don't think your product will be able to compensate for poor engineering. IMO and experience most electronic failures are more mechanical than electrical. Things like corrosion, poor connections, moisture, manufacturing flaws, and inadequate meaterials are really common problems with todays electrical components. I would have a hard time believing that your product would solve the cam/cranks sensor issues with the late model Nissans. It would not help the MAF sensor problems that the GM's where plagued with in the late 90's. It would not help the TCC solenoid failures the GM's had in the early 90's. Ford ignitions modules from the 90's, and DPFE senors would be a couple more that would not have benefited. How about O2 sensors and fuel pumps, I don't think so. All these are common electronic components that fail more often than not because the electronics fail but because there is a mechanical failure in the electronics.

The truth is modern vehicles electronics are very solid regardless of what you may read on online forums. I see many posts on a regular basis where major electronics are replaced multiple times without the resolution of the problem because the major electronic components are not the problem.

[Andrew84]

I have to respectfully disagree to your statement that 'they never work' because I think it's absolutionist.

If it's empirical evidence that you're seeking then there are plenty of them to go along. And of course, there are ways of testing mileage that can actually account for the changes. You'll have to drive under the same conditions, internal and ambient, at a constant speed, through a known route and repeat the experiment several times to account for errors.

And since this device works by optimizing the electronics, power gain and efficiency improvements comes hand in hand. Which means you could perform a dyno test and look at the figures. Again, multiple runs are required to account for errors cause by embient temperature, gasping of air at the intakes at high revs, dyno errors, heat build-up, etc.

Surely there are ways to compile empirical evidence that can be objectively interpreted. To say that there is no way to measure these improvements is absurd.

As for the issue of engineering, I would agree with you that the voltage stabilizer will not solve certain problems inherent in engineering flaws such as poor materials, inadequate design tolarances, moisture, corrosion, oxidation of cables and chassis etc.

But it is a known fact that voltage jitters will affect to a certain extent as well compound upon these known engineering flaws. For an example, if the transmission solenoid drains a sharp pulse of current during its rapid engagement, and the electrical system has a high impedance, there will be a deficit of charge and a temporary dip in voltage. This voltage drop and ripple can sometimes mean the difference between premature failure and prolonged operation. Of course I do not imply that this is the case with every scenario although I have personally experienced and have people who experience such cases. One example is the old Ford AOE-D transmission which tend to produce a thump everytime it engages the overdrive especially when the truck is old. The Voltaggio has successfully got rid of that jerk.

And lets not forget that the current that comes out of your altenator is a rectified AC which means that the DC waveform has a rippling voltage. In theory all this rippling of voltage is supposed to be absorbed by the car's battery. But the battery has a high impedance, and bad frequency response that it cannot fully filter this jitter, even though it is able to output to over 200 amps when needed in short busrts. Ever heard of the infamous altenator whine?

That noise, combined with noise caused by firing of plugs, PWM blowers and various other accessories will definitely effect the signal integrity of sensors, ECU, TCU, etc. And although it might not cause premature failure in a well enginered car with good design tolerances, the effect of a noisy line voltage will still affect the circuits to a certain extent.

So will not say that it would help in every case, of course. But removing one adverse factor out of the equation will certainly help mitigate or delay some the these problems.

Btw, a review by a tuner from a Mustang club from California can be found here. http://stangup.com/index.php?topic=2608.0. And no, he did not accept any payments from me. He does review for other products such as superchargers and stroker kits.

And then there are reviews from users of sub-2000cc cars like the Yaris, Versa, Corolla, giving feedback saying that they could instantly feel the difference in smoothness, power, and even millage when they travel long distances. But of course, these are not considered empirical enough in the context of our discussion.

[Airjer_]

Customer testimonial is shaky at best.

Over the years I have come up with the "tuned senses" theory. The idea is that I could take a customers car, do absolutely nothing to it but tell them I did several services that will benefit them, there car, and there wallet. That customer will take there unaltered vehicle and either complain that something is not right, be amazed at the vehicles new characteristics, or a combination of both.

Although I have not actually tested this theory I have some evidence to support this. I take many test drives with customers in there cars trying to narrow down the source of there complaint. Many times uring these test drives I can pick out numerous anomalies that the customer is surprised they never noticed and many times disregard as not the problem they are experiencing.

As far as fixing the issues you have described I have to wonder if you are truly fixing the problem or is your product merely a band-aid? I also have to wonder if this technology is what you describe than why wouldn't manufacturers implement this technology potentially saving them millions in just warranty repairs not to mention the repeat business gained in customer satisfaction of there vehicles? The volkswagen/Audi coil issues in there late model vehicles would be a great example. Would this have solved there premature coil failure issue and saved them millions in customer satisfaction repairs?

[Airjer_]

After reading the review by Jeff I found it funny that the mustang dropped HP on the dyno but that was dyno error.

"Did it improve my horsepower numbers? I ran 3 runs without the device and my overall average was 619 HP (disappointing as I have been as high as 631hp before) And then 3 runs with it my average was 617 HP so I guess it made me loose 2 HP! But before you judge, dyno's have a bit of an error margin and can vary 4-5 HP very easy so I am going to say there was no change here."

The GTO on the other hand gained HP, 4 as a matter of fact but Jeffs conclusion is much different

Did it improve my horsepower numbers? On the 3 runs without I averaged 297 HP. And the 3 runs with averaged 301 HP! So a gain of 4 HP. Some of this may be that error factor that I talked about earlier but I do believe there may be a small gain here as the curve was slightly better down low as well.

How can margin of error be a factor in HP loss but not in HP gain?

Jeff also commented a lot that it "feels like". Tuned senses theory?

The fuel economy reports show marginal gain but I can easily get those gains buy changing driving habits. We don't know how he measured fuel economy through his route. If it was a combination of city and highway a small change in the vehicles acceleration from city to highway speeds would be enough to get the varying mileage.

That review is not enough to convince me that there is any short term benefit to stabilizing voltage.

[Andrew84]

Well, I am not going to refute your "tuned-senses" theory. But as I said, there are always empirical evidence that can go along in case the driver's psychology kicks in.

That being said, I would like to point out that being a left-brained skeptical society that we are, people are more inclined to question the effectiveness a product rather than 'convince themselves' especially if it is something as niche as the voltage stabilizer. In fact, many of my customers are skewed toward believing that it does not work, only to come after a week to tell me that there is a difference. They were inclined to think just like you.


And as for fixing problems, this product is not to fix any problems, or to be used as a band-aid. Like you said, you just cant compensate for poor engineering, and that the voltage stabilizer will not resolve mechanical problems. It will not save cars from catastrophic failures due to engineering flaws.

What it does it that it filters electrical noise and that can only help migitate certain problems, cause some aspects of the vehicle to last longer, as well as providing a noise-free environment for the ECU, and sensors to yield accurate readings and calculations. Improving accuracy of sensors and ECU is one thing, making them last longer is another thing. But if a circuit is subjected to less bus voltage noise it will also tend to last long. Ask an electronics engineer. It will not, however, avert catastophic failure due to engineering flaws. And I dare not iterate on the examples you gave me because I do not know what realm each and every of their failures lies in. But I believe it will help in some of cases you mentioned. But to what extent remains to be seen.

As for why manufacturers do not use a built in capacitor bank is because the do not believe that there is a need to use an intermediate charge storage medium other than the battery since the battery is to both absorb voltage ripples and to store charge. Their nomenclature of a car is such that voltage generated from the generation source (rectified AC alternator), should be feeded directly to battery with no arbitrary intermediate noise filering. They simply design the car around this nomenclature and incorporate whatever tolerances they need in order to account for everything. An extra charge storage medium incurs extra cost, so what they do is they usually use good batteries.

Alot of premature failures in electrical components such as solenoids, pumps and actuators can actually by migitated and even avoided by simply using a good battery. And alot if such failure are due to not maintaining the battery or using cheaper batteries that the recommended ones. Try running your car purely on alternator juice without any battery and see what are the long term effects on your auto tranny or your electronics. Hook-up an osciloscope and see the voltage jitter. But even a good battery cannot filter high-frequency noise like a good capacitor does. The capacitor charges and discharges much more rapidly while the battery provides more juice (amps).

So manufacturers, simply regard this issue as 'not their problem', since they already done their job in providing adequate tolerances and recommending a battery with a certain rating and quality. Luxury brands will insist that their cars be replaced with good batteries. Obviously there's a reason for that other than to store juice. A cheap battery can also store juice.

So in a nutshell, this voltage stabilizer is not to 'solve' these problems, regardless of whether they are the result of manufacturers' design flaws, or the customers' ignorance in taking care of the vehicle. In only 'assist' the battery if you will, since these things are mounted parallel to the 12V bus or directly on the battery, or tapping from any parallel 12V source. They simply take the jitter filtering to a higher lever. That's all. It's not a magic wand.

[Airjer_]

Originally Posted by Andrew84

So in a nutshell, this voltage stabilizer is not to 'solve' these problems, regardless of whether they are the result of manufacturers' design flaws, or the customers' ignorance in taking care of the vehicle. In only 'assist' the battery if you will, since these things are mounted parallel to the 12V bus or directly on the battery, or tapping from any parallel 12V source. They simply take the jitter filtering to a higher lever. That's all. It's not a magic wand.

That's what I was looking for!

I enjoyed our conversation!

[Andrew84]

Originally Posted by Airjer_

After reading the review by Jeff I found it funny that the mustang dropped HP on the dyno but that was dyno error.

"Did it improve my horsepower numbers? I ran 3 runs without the device and my overall average was 619 HP (disappointing as I have been as high as 631hp before) And then 3 runs with it my average was 617 HP so I guess it made me loose 2 HP! But before you judge, dyno's have a bit of an error margin and can vary 4-5 HP very easy so I am going to say there was no change here."

The GTO on the other hand gained HP, 4 as a matter of fact but Jeffs conclusion is much different

Did it improve my horsepower numbers? On the 3 runs without I averaged 297 HP. And the 3 runs with averaged 301 HP! So a gain of 4 HP. Some of this may be that error factor that I talked about earlier but I do believe there may be a small gain here as the curve was slightly better down low as well.

How can margin of error be a factor in HP loss but not in HP gain?

Jeff also commented a lot that it "feels like". Tuned senses theory?

The fuel economy reports show marginal gain but I can easily get those gains buy changing driving habits. We don't know how he measured fuel economy through his route. If it was a combination of city and highway a small change in the vehicles acceleration from city to highway speeds would be enough to get the varying mileage.

That review is not enough to convince me that there is any short term benefit to stabilizing voltage.

The dyno error is a factor in both HP loss and HP gain. He did not denied it.

But read this I do believe there may be a small gain here as the curve was slightly better down low as well.

The numbers you see are the maximum horsepower. And this figure is prone to those errors since it is concerned with the highest point of the curve. It can be caused by some fluke and may go off 1-3 horsepower.
But when considering the whole power curve, which takes into account the entire length of the power curve and not just in highest point, there is a difference. That means that throughout the entire rpm band the curve is elevated.

If it is just an increase in the highest point, the maximum horsepower, without a noticable increase troughout the curve, then it's a fluke.
You must consider the entire power cuve and not just its highest point (maximum horsepower).

This is how you interpret a dyno test where horsepower gains are marginal. This isn't exactly an stoker kit install, or a bolt on turbo, or even ECU reflashing. It is just a voltage stabilizing, noise filtering device.

The mileage test is repeated 3 times and the average is taken. Of course you would have to choose a known clear route in order to maintain a constant speed so as not to be affected by acceleration and deceleration. Such tests have to be conducted at a constant speed which implies that highway driving is necassary.

And these are not the only benefits. There are other that he did mentioned. And in cases where it did not made any difference, he clearly stated it.

But I would say that this test does not emconpass everything though. There are still test with more stringent measurement done by thrid party certification companies like TUV that can still be done later. Bench testing of power output, emissions, etc. I am not going to iterate on those yet since that kind of test results is still not available.

[Andrew84]

I think this is a rather healthy and critical conversation and I enjoyed it too.

The questions you asked me would have also been asked by many others.

[Andrew84]

Originally Posted by Airjer_

That's what I was looking for!

I enjoyed our conversation!

That being said, I hope that the paragraph which you quote is not taken out of context.

I still stand by what I say earlier and that the voltage stabilizer does what it does - to filter electrical noise and to optimize the electrical system, leading to benefits such as improved power, smoothness, response, efficiency and longer lasting electronics regardless of whether the effect is pronounced in some cases or marginal in some cases!

It is not a substitute for good engineering by the car manufacturer nor good maintaince habits by the vehicle's owner.

Thanks for your conversation.

[534BC]

I'd be willing to test it on some various vehicles that I already have logged much FE history. I can also run it on the dyno and verify a hp change.

For the dyno test will a simple constant load applied at WOT or part throttle suffice while switching the unit on and off work? Will it respond quickly to being turned off and on?

[Andrew84]

Originally Posted by 534BC

I'd be willing to test it on some various vehicles that I already have logged much FE history. I can also run it on the dyno and verify a hp change.

For the dyno test will a simple constant load applied at WOT or part throttle suffice while switching the unit on and off work? Will it respond quickly to being turned off and on?

The device will respond within seconds. But I dont know wheter what youre suggesting is sentitive enough to read the changes. Also depends what car youre using.

But I would recommend seperate dyno pulls. That way you'll get to see the entire power curve.

We can work something out if you want to get a unit.

[534BC]

I can read about 1 hp increments , will that be enough? Which is the best type of vehicle to respond the most? I can pick from various types.

The only 3 I have logged many mpg history are Chevy: Venture , cavalier,blazer (all FI and OBDII)

Let's pick the best possible condition where this product "shines the most" You pick it since you know it well and I don't know it at all yet.