A question for those of you who frequent contests...

[racer93]

Hey all,

A question for those who are involved in model contests--do you think that entries that are *completely* scratchbuilt without the help of a kit should be able to compete against plastic or multimedia kits in the same category?

My opinion is that they are two completely separate things and shouldn't be compared against one another directly, as one *is* engineered while building and the other *was* engineered prior to building. What do you guys think?

Thanks!

Daniel

[rx7king]

Thats a good point/questions...however of the contests I have attended have never been large enough to split the two...the scratchbuilt car would be automatic winner because there would be no other competition.

[racer93]

Originally Posted by rx7king

Thats a good point/questions...however of the contests I have attended have never been large enough to split the two...the scratchbuilt car would be automatic winner because there would be no other competition.

I can see that.

However, I think that they still should be split out because it's apples and oranges, IMO. This should be a "hard" split out, in that it doesn't matter how many competitors there are, they WILL NOT be put into another category, unless that other category is completely scratch built. I just don't think plastic and SB should be mixed...

[Veyron]

I think in a way it's a non-issue.

I've been going to contests steadily since 1994 and can count on one hand the number of completely scratchbuilt models.

Contests consist of traditional categories and the odd completely scratchbuilt item just has to be dealt with on the spot.

Contests are all but a thing of the past anyway, NNL style model shows have become more the norm, and for reasons like this.

[crisjr]

Originally Posted by rx7king

Thats a good point/questions...however of the contests I have attended have never been large enough to split the two...the scratchbuilt car would be automatic winner because there would be no other competition.

Totally agree!!

[racer93]

Originally Posted by Veyron

I think in a way it's a non-issue.

I've been going to contests steadily since 1994 and can count on one hand the number of completely scratchbuilt models.

Contests consist of traditional categories and the odd completely scratchbuilt item just has to be dealt with on the spot.

Contests are all but a thing of the past anyway, NNL style model shows have become more the norm, and for reasons like this.

NNLs aren't really competitions. It's just a popularity contest. In that way, I won't go to them. I'm going to stick with IPMS shows that have strict judging guidelines. It makes for more consistent results.

Why are IPMS shows doing so well if judged shows are "a thing of the past"? The last two I've been to have been over 600 entries with over half each being cars. These are fully "judged" shows...

I've personally seen two that have taken top honors in several contests in the last few months, mainly due to the "wow" factor and not by the build quality (see the IPMS judging above). I guess it's mostly a judging issue, but I feel that a plastic model cannot compete with something that is engineered by the person making it. Two completely different things.

[crisjr]

In my opinion it's all plastic model and must be seen like this, of course that you can take some point in consideration but.. what would you do in the scenario above:

You have two categories, A and B.

On the category A have 4 cars, amazing cars all built with lot of PE, amazing paint job, perfect fitment and so on, but only 3 cars can win, and the decision is very, very tight.

On the category B you have only one car, hand made, out of scale, crap paint job, a.. bad car.. but.. you have to give the 1st prize to it, why? simple, because it's the only one on it's category.

Do you think that it's fair?

[racer93]

Yes because the two can't really be compared against each other fairly--like apples and oranges.

It's also like someone bringing a fully painted and made die cast model and competing with it against someone's made plastic kit. It's just not quite right.

[drunken monkey]

Where would you draw the line?

How about a separate category for those who paint using an airbrush and one for those who use paint from cans?
One for those scratch build bits using a mill and lathe?
One for those guys who have better modelling supplies stores near them?
One for those who have more money to spend on modelling?

Modelling is modelling.
If you're allowed to add detail by scratch building and maybe replace some not so good looking kit parts by scratch building then why aren't they allowed to scratch build completely?
Just how is it that different?

I suppose you can take the position that it is then model making vs kit building which only brings up the question of what do you see yourself as being?
Are you a simple kit builder or a master model maker?

The only real worthy distinction that I can see is box stock compared to detailing which is how they categorise anyway.

[MPWR]

Originally Posted by racer93

do you think that entries that are *completely* scratchbuilt without the help of a kit should be able to compete against plastic or multimedia kits in the same category?

Sure. A model is a model.

IPMS weights their judging criteria very heavily on basic skills- as it should be. A straight out of the box build with a perfect finish should always beat a totally scratchbuilt, self engineered build with an inferior finish.

It does not matter how much work you put into it, or how difficult you made the build for yourself. If the simple basic stuff isn't perfect, it's going to be beaten by builds that are.

Learn painting before you learn detailing. Master the simple before you worry about the complex, grasshopper. If your basic skills are perfect, than an unnecessarily complicated build perfectly completed will be even better. But if you have not mastered the basic skills, no amount of scratchbuilding or engineering will make up for it.

[drunken monkey]

er... wrong quoted...

and I don't which is the point.
If one demands that completely scratch built models should be judged separately and differently then that suggest that you would see them as being different.

[MPWR]

er- right.

[crisjr]

Originally Posted by MPWR

Sure. A model is a model.

IPMS weights their judging criteria very heavily on basic skills- as it should be. A straight out of the box build with a perfect finish should always beat a totally scratchbuilt, self engineered build with an inferior finish.

It does not matter how much work you put into it, or how difficult you made the build for yourself. If the simple basic stuff isn't perfect, it's going to be beaten by builds that are.

Learn painting before you learn detailing. Master the simple before you worry about the complex, grasshopper. If your basic skills are perfect, than an unnecessarily complicated build perfectly completed will be even better. But if you have not mastered the basic skills, no amount of scratchbuilding or engineering will make up for it.

I think that this resume what must be a contest...use PE, detailing a lot of things or even build a car by your own hands, it's up to you.. if you do and don't have enough skills you'll pay the price..

Learn basic things before .. you're are totally right!!

[racer93]

I have been to several IPMS shows this year (just started going to a lot of shows late last year) and have won several best auto awards at them. I'd like to think I'm not a slouch...I agree with *the way* they judge by looking at build quality first and then looking at detail, everything being equal. That is the way I wish judging contests would judge. Unfortunately, a lot of Car Club contests don't do it that way. They apparently get carried away with fully scratchbuilt models and lose the IPMS way of judging. (IOW, they don't look at the basics but get awed by the "wow factor".)

Now, DM, let's be reasonable. You're throwing out a ton of straw men. I'm just talking about FULLY SCRATCHBUILT MODELS. That's where the line would be drawn.

MPWR--Your scenario about a stock vs scratchbuilt car is EXACTLY what happened at an IPMS show I was at. But at car shows, it doesn't. I think it's a sign of rather pathetic judging, IMO.

Maybe my hang up is more with the judging at car shows, but I believe that my argument still stands--just take a look at Randy Derr's totally scratchbuilt 1/12 sprint car as an example. How could ANY plastic model compete with that thing? There's no freaking way. I do super-detailed builds, but when you make a tubular chassis for a car and have a working suspension and steering rack, there's no way. Sure, they spent a ton of hours and have super skills with a mill and lathe (not to mention general modelling skills) but isn't that a different discipline? Or at least warrant a new category? Can you guys not even agree with that?

[drunken monkey]

you are making a statement that suggests that a fully scratch built model would always win.
that suggests that even if the fully scratch built kit isn't up to scratch, it would still win.
it also ignores the fact that if the guy can make a full model from scratch, if he decided to "just" build from a kit, it would probably still win.

the point is, the best model won, no?

why do you insist it is a different discipline?
is there anything they do that you don't do (or can't do) when building a kit?

if you insist that it is different and that it should be a different category then why do you say that those other categories that I suggest aren't valid?