The 'Inteligant Design' website

I miss spelt Intelligent on purpose, because there is nothing intelligent about it.

But this is hilarious:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/resources/

:popcorn:

Sit back, and.....it begins....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


My neck hurts.

I hope no one here actually believes this shit, for those who want hardcore proof that evolution took place, watch this one hour video (last hour is Q&A):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

It's pretty much awesome.

The professor talks about how evolution works, why it works, where it comes from, and supplies his arguments with factual and scientific evidence that the ID argument was thrown out of an American court because ID advocates couldn't refute the proof laid by the smart guys. I love education.

There was one guy who said that if you already believe something all the facts will support your theory. I take it ID is some Religious BS and all books should be discontinued in printing as its a waste of paper. =p

:confused: For someone who doesn't believe in religion, you sure spend an awful lot of time researching/posting about it....:confused:

Are you secretly worried your making the right decision, or does hate rule all?? :evillol:

I just read the preamble on their site and decided to go no further. When they say “At the same time, intelligent design (ID) offers a promising scientific alternative to materialistic theories of biological and cosmological evolution” it becomes obvious that they are trying to substitute spiritual or mystical beliefs in place of material evidence.

There is no physical evidence for intelligent design, nor will there ever be. There is overwhelming physical evidence for evolution to the point that it is ridiculous to even attempt to argue against. If anyone disagrees, they haven't picked up a modern biology textbook in 30 years. Case closed.

I think intelligent design and the theory of evolution should not be compared at all. Everyone knows that sides will be taken, much like sports of course, and that it will be an ongoing battle...as is everything involving religion and politics. Plus, considering ID to be an alternative to evolution sounds like having two different options of medicine to treat an illness. I personally feel that something can be taken from both points of view and as a result, assemble my own theory on how things work...because we all want to evolve on a daily basis.

:confused: For someone who doesn't believe in religion, you sure spend an awful lot of time researching/posting about it....:confused:

Are you secretly worried your making the right decision, or does hate rule all?? :evillol:


History and origin of religion is a fascinating topic.

On topic, NSX, ID is the belief (from Christianity) that Genesis is an accurate historical acount. It takes into acount the creation of man kind and life as we know it, occured roughly 6,000 years ago.

Intellegent Design is just a cover up for Creationism. The courts managed to prove that.

my biggest problem with the so called "literal interpetaion" of Genisis is that when it says the earth and heavens were created in 6 days. who's days where they? before the earth was created there was no "earth day" to reference so how long is a day to god, a being that has always been and always will be? maybe his days a lot longer relative to ours witch would put the year dating off as well.

i like the way the catholics have come to term with it. god creates thru evolution.

C'mon guys, Intelligent Design is too easy a target.....

The reason that it's intelligent is that evolution works.

The truth is, we can't be sure with the information we have whether we were created or evolved....everything is speculation without proof.

What proof we have of evolution is just that - proof of evolution. People say "prove God exists" well, you can't....that's what faith is.

In any event, if this picks up a bit we'll move it to Philosophy. :)

my biggest problem with the so called "literal interpetaion" of Genisis is that when it says the earth and heavens were created in 6 days. who's days where they? before the earth was created there was no "earth day" to reference so how long is a day to god, a being that has always been and always will be? maybe his days a lot longer relative to ours witch would put the year dating off as well.

i like the way the catholics have come to term with it. god creates thru evolution.

I went to private schools from kindergarten through my last year of college. I remember once when I was little that the ages for some of the people in the Old Testament were rediculous. I think Abraham was in the hundreds of years old or something like that.
If you look at things now, there are less people within the Church trying to force views onto others like they used to. The Good Book and its teachings were literally just teachings, and I don't know how people got to take it so literally with the events it "chronicled." But I do know that both teams need their allstar players in order to make competition fierce. By that I mean religion has ID and non-religious/agnostics have evolution and maybe something else.

i'll post it again:

THE TRUTH (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/81bc2f14f0)

...

I think ID is way easier to accept than other theories. ID: God created Earth. God has always been and will always be here. Evolution or Big Bang Theory: A boom created the universe. Then EVERYTHING evolved from one single-cell bacteria.... Yea right. Explain to me where the bang came from.

Anyway, like poster fredjacksonsan said, "..that's what faith is." Either idea or theory takes faith, neither can be proven 100%.

BTW: I imagine most of you guys who support the evolution theory obviously learned most of it in school throughout one's early youth days. So it was kind of drilled into your brains, while Christianity was only something you have heard about, but not actually taken time to really learn about. I'm 19 and have spent the last few weeks learning about Christianity, there is tons of proof supporting it, even scientific proof. I didn't even know til recently that even dinosaurs and cavemen are mentioned in the Bible.
You just have to take time to learn about each side before making your final judgement.
Just my two cents.

Edit* I found this tonight. Now, I'm all for believe what you want, and good for them for being conned into something so retarded but this is just pathetic.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=761951
What happened to that statement Davo?

bmx419gt, you may have a point there on the ease of acceptance of either side. People generally like the simpler answers to their questions. Also, since these are just theories, they can be changed, and are therefore not 100%...which we already agree on. But since you have only been spending a few weeks learning about it, there is still a long ways to go...it is too interesting to pass up.

I was raised Catholic, went to private Catholic and Jesuit (college) schools from ages 5-23, and studied more than one religion. Yet, I still believe that the theory of evolution still has more pull than the simpler explanation. But, that is my choice. I also know that just because I was surrounded by religion, nothing was forced upon me (opposite of what you said about evolution being drilled into our young minds.) to accept God as the Creator. I don't know about other schools but I learned about evolution in second grade, right when I made my Communion.

I also wonder how many public school kids went to Sunday school/PSR to learn about religion when they were little. Seems to me that when I was a kid, every public school kid had to go...because religion had more influence over people than it does now with all that controversy they always face.

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

BMX, I think you are studying the wrong side of the religion.

Oh, and edit, too, I don't mean to be a complete asshole, but there actually isn't any evidence. At all. Ever.

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

since these are just theories, they can be changed

Theory and belief are not interchangable words.

Belief:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Theory:
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

Part 1

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Davo, what's with your sudden rabid crusade against Christianity?

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

BMX, I think you are studying the wrong side of the religion.

Oh, and edit, too, I don't mean to be a complete asshole, but there actually isn't any evidence. At all. Ever.

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

Well from what I have learned many events(if not all, I really don't know) in the Bible have actually occured in history. That is, prophecies that have been fufilled thus far and other events. Yet, your telling me there isn't any evidence. Right? If that's the case then how would we even know the stuff in our history books is truth? There's evidence for non-religious history and I deduce you believe it. So why not Christianity?

None of us would believe anything if we questioned it enough. Again, neither theory or idea can be proven 100%. So we may never know.

Theory and belief are not interchangable words.

Belief:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Theory:
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

I don't know how you got that out of my opinion, but nonetheless you're right. Theory and belief are not interchangable, but the problem is just that. Theories are taken as beliefs and cause problems because we think that someone has to have the right answer out there and we want to believe in that answer to all those great questions of the universe. But I still stand by what I said: Theories can be changed and so can beliefs, based on the fact that we continue to learn something new each day...and everything we learn can change what we think about things in life. People have a choice to believe in whatever they want, as long as it gets them to where they want to be.

Well from what I have learned many events(if not all, I really don't know) in the Bible have actually occured in history. That is, prophecies that have been fufilled thus far and other events. Yet, your telling me there isn't any evidence. Right? If that's the case then how would we even know the stuff in our history books is truth? There's evidence for non-religious history and I deduce you believe it. So why not Christianity?

None of us would believe anything if we questioned it enough. Again, neither theory or idea can be proven 100%. So we may never know.

I can think of two at the top of my head that were blatant lies:

The census that Caesar Augustus' apparently ordered (which brought Mary and Joseph to Nazarath) never happened.

The mass murder of all infants under the age of two, under order of King Herod, never happened and was proven a biblical fable.

Also, there is not one shred of evidence to support a theory that there was any Jewish uproar in Egypt (Moses), not anything out side the bible that depicts his "journey" which was actually, also blatantly ripped off from a previous Babylonian story. As was the flood. As was the resurrection.

Also, just to be a dick, all four Gospels can't agree with each other on the resurrection.


You should read up on the Gnostics, and the council of Nicea. If you really want to study a religion, study it's core of beliefs. You will find they don't even fit with the original, was thrown out in a court of favorable beliefs and pieced together to prevent civil war.

This thread takes the piss out of the Intelligent Design website, that their resources are "Coming Soon!" which I found hilarious!

BMX: If you read up on the Judo-Claudian Dynasty (Heir's of Julius Caesar) from about 45B.C.E to about 70A.D the history in the Roman Empire is amazing. There are some books that also describe the political and social evolution at this period in time that helped Christianity spread throughout the empire. It's a fascinating area of topic!

Toskins: BMX is genuinely interested in this area, I don't blame him, it's a great area. Any argument in this area is touchy I know, but when you actually know the works, then it's not hard put an idea forward without raising eyebrows.

Ummm are we talking about Creationism or ID? From what I understand they're two different topics. Creationism is the creation of the world according to the Bible. ID is that a "power from above" had a hand in why things are the way they are and that ID isn't forced to just one religion like christianity.

Anyway, ID doesn't seem looney to me. Personally I find it funny that athiest are just like the ones they're laughing at. Oh well, what are you going to do? I'm going to go get drunk.

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

I guess I didn't.
Anyway, I think it's somewhat pointless continuing this debate. Although interesting, I do not think anyone is going to change someone else's mind on their beliefs. Thanks for the research topics Davo. I am genuinely interested in knowing where we came from.

BTW, completely off-topic. The reason it's been so long since I've posted a reply is because everytime I clicked this thread title, it only loaded up to my first reply. And not anyone else's after mine, until today. It wouldn't even show my last post, prior to this one. Anyone have an explanation? Thanks.

BTW, completely off-topic. The reason it's been so long since I've posted a reply is because everytime I clicked this thread title, it only loaded up to my first reply. And not anyone else's after mine, until today. It wouldn't even show my last post, prior to this one. Anyone have an explanation? Thanks.God was trying to protect you from all the blasphemy...

Ummm are we talking about Creationism or ID? From what I understand they're two different topics. Creationism is the creation of the world according to the Bible. ID is that a "power from above" had a hand in why things are the way they are and that ID isn't forced to just one religion like christianity.

Anyway, ID doesn't seem looney to me. Personally I find it funny that athiest are just like the ones they're laughing at. Oh well, what are you going to do? I'm going to go get drunk.

ID is Creationism.

They one in the same. They changed the name to sound less religious in a ludacris attempt to have their religious views forced into public American schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

ID and creationism both, ok well they're the same, but they are the belief that the world was created, by Intelligent Design 6,000 years ago. It throws out modern science, completely ignores known scientific evidence and claims most of the knowledge we have gathers (completely independent of each other) as lies by the scientific community. This, I have a problem with.

The courts proved it was the same, and the name change (which occured between editions in a '87 text book my Michael Behe) from Creationism to Intelligent Design.

There is no physical evidence for intelligent design, nor will there ever be. There is overwhelming physical evidence for evolution to the point that it is ridiculous to even attempt to argue against. If anyone disagrees, they haven't picked up a modern biology textbook in 30 years. Case closed.


I agree, pick up a biology book. When you realize just how complex the human body is and how all processes and things in the body work together in the body, there can be no ohter explanation other than a CREATOR. All things gravitate to a "lesser" energy state over time unless "excited" if you will. Thats physics. Kinda throws a wrench in that whole evolution idea (evolution within a species is completely defferent by the way)...........but thats just my opinion.

I can think of two at the top of my head that were blatant lies:

The census that Caesar Augustus' apparently ordered (which brought Mary and Joseph to Nazarath) never happened.

The mass murder of all infants under the age of two, under order of King Herod, never happened and was proven a biblical fable.

Also, there is not one shred of evidence to support a theory that there was any Jewish uproar in Egypt (Moses), not anything out side the bible that depicts his "journey" which was actually, also blatantly ripped off from a previous Babylonian story. As was the flood. As was the resurrection.

Also, just to be a dick, all four Gospels can't agree with each other on the resurrection.


You should read up on the Gnostics, and the council of Nicea. If you really want to study a religion, study it's core of beliefs. You will find they don't even fit with the original, was thrown out in a court of favorable beliefs and pieced together to prevent civil war.

This thread takes the piss out of the Intelligent Design website, that their resources are "Coming Soon!" which I found hilarious!

BMX: If you read up on the Judo-Claudian Dynasty (Heir's of Julius Caesar) from about 45B.C.E to about 70A.D the history in the Roman Empire is amazing. There are some books that also describe the political and social evolution at this period in time that helped Christianity spread throughout the empire. It's a fascinating area of topic!

Toskins: BMX is genuinely interested in this area, I don't blame him, it's a great area. Any argument in this area is touchy I know, but when you actually know the works, then it's not hard put an idea forward without raising eyebrows.

Davo,
You statemen that all 4 gospels don't agree? Well, they shouldn't be the same. It basically a biography of Jesus life (older years) told by 4 different authors. However they are very similiar. If they were absolutely identical, that would cause me great worry as I would look at it as an attempt to make up a story. In a court of law, if two witnesses gave the exact same testimony, it would be throw out immediately. Can't remeber the term for this in a court of law.

If the ressurection were a lie how could it have lasted threw all these years? Why would early christians give up there lives to spread a false gospel following the ressurection?

Also I am not sure I agree with your "lies" accuation in the Bible. From what I understand, archeological evidence is agreeing more and more with what the Bible says. In addition I don't believe archealogist have been able to "disprove" something in the Bible yet. Granted they have yet to prove many things.

I am not asking your to believe in God, but what is the reason for trying to disprove it to the world? A genuine Christian is probably the most kind hearted individual you will ever meet. The world should be so lucky to have them. There is a God shaped whole in all or hearts, otherwise this debate would not exist. There are those who believe it, and there are those who do eveything to try and not believe it.

Davo, what's with your sudden rabid crusade against Christianity?

I'm also interested in this response. I don't want this to sound like there are couple people ganging up on you but when are you going to get sick & tired of trying to disprove the validity of God's holy word.

As stated by Johnson the gospels of Bible were written under inspritation of the holy spirit. There are also countless examples of the prophecy of the Old Testament being proven in the New Testament of the Bible.

I don't mean to go totally off topic but note that the Bible also is historic when in the book of Daniel it speaks about the fall of earthy kingdoms.

I hope that you just give up on your notions and trust in faith...

When you realize just how complex the human body is and how all processes and things in the body work together in the body, there can be no ohter explanation other than a CREATOR.

What created God?

Davo,
You statemen that all 4 gospels don't agree? Well, they shouldn't be the same. It basically a biography of Jesus life (older years) told by 4 different authors. However they are very similiar. If they were absolutely identical, that would cause me great worry as I would look at it as an attempt to make up a story. In a court of law, if two witnesses gave the exact same testimony, it would be throw out immediately. Can't remeber the term for this in a court of law.

If the ressurection were a lie how could it have lasted threw all these years? Why would early christians give up there lives to spread a false gospel following the ressurection?

Also I am not sure I agree with your "lies" accuation in the Bible. From what I understand, archeological evidence is agreeing more and more with what the Bible says. In addition I don't believe archealogist have been able to "disprove" something in the Bible yet. Granted they have yet to prove many things.

I am not asking your to believe in God, but what is the reason for trying to disprove it to the world? A genuine Christian is probably the most kind hearted individual you will ever meet. The world should be so lucky to have them. There is a God shaped whole in all or hearts, otherwise this debate would not exist. There are those who believe it, and there are those who do eveything to try and not believe it.

I'm also interested in this response. I don't want this to sound like there are couple people ganging up on you but when are you going to get sick & tired of trying to disprove the validity of God's holy word.

As stated by Johnson the gospels of Bible were written under inspritation of the holy spirit. There are also countless examples of the prophecy of the Old Testament being proven in the New Testament of the Bible.

I don't mean to go totally off topic but note that the Bible also is historic when in the book of Daniel it speaks about the fall of earthy kingdoms.

I hope that you just give up on your notions and trust in faith...

You guys sound a lot alike, do you know each other?

What created God?Someone looking for an easy way to manipulate millions of people. :grinyes:

You guys sound a lot alike, do you know each other?

Fellow brothers in Christ.

What created God?

If you go back far enough you can question anything. What created the "nothing-ness" that created the big bang. There are some things that we will never understand or know this side of eternity. The belief in God is based on faith. Having a relationship with Him however helps you relizes just how real HE is. When you hear of and see things he has done in peoples lives and what he has done in your own you see just how real He is. Put your faith in science or in a loving creator that wants nothing more than to have a realtionship with you. Thats your decision to make.

"Life with Christ is Endless Hope, Life without Christ is a Hopeless End"

Fellow brothers in Christ. :eek7: ? :dunno:

Fellow brothers in Christ.

does that mean fridays is three-way night for you guys?

does that mean fridays is three-way night for you guys?

The unfortunate thing is that "Eternity" is no laughing matter as you will one day find out...........but if it helps you sleep at night to ridicule Christians, so be it. Lucky for you, I have a heart for non-believers and will continue to try and spread the Gospel. My job is only to spread the Good Word, its up to the individual to except it or not.

Why are people so scared of Christians? It like the world is out to get us. I mean, people are killed in other countries b/c of it. I think it boils down to the fact that the thought of being held accountable for your actions to God just doesn't sound good to people. As a Christian you ARE held accountable and will be judged someday. Or maybe deep inside we all know its right. God states in the Bible that his laws are written on each of our hearts.

Why are people so scared of Christians? It like the world is out to get us. I mean, people are killed in other countries b/c of it. I think it boils down to the fact that the thought of being held accountable for your actions to God just doesn't sound good to people. As a Christian you ARE held accountable and will be judged someday.

and what makes this different to any other religion?
what makes Christianity the one and only possible true faith?
Why is it not possible that you are wrong and that it is one of the others that is "true"?
Satan is the king of lies, right? Is it not possible that Satan has been masquerading as God to Christians, leading the way to the wars throughout the ages? I mean, lie and deceive; that's why he does, right? How do you know that you are not the ones being deceived?

If you go back far enough you can question anything.
So you don't question ANYTHING in the Bible?

If a girl came up to you today and said she NEVER had sex, but shes pregnant what would you think?

If some guy on tv said "I can part the sea", would you really believe him?

I'm not making fun of your belief in God. Something had to happen for us to be here today. I find it strange how most people say "the Bible says...." and the counter is usually always something like "Science proves...."

....good thing I'm not a good listener, or follower. Otherwise, I would be scared about who is really "right"..:wink:

and what makes this different to any other religion?
what makes Christianity the one and only possible true faith?
Why is it not possible that you are wrong and that it is one of the others that is "true"?
Satan is the king of lies, right? Is it not possible that Satan has been masquerading as God to Christians, leading the way to the wars throughout the ages? I mean, lie and deceive; that's why he does, right? How do you know that you are not the ones being deceived?

Christianity is the only religion that talks about a God that loves you and wants a personal relationship with you. It not a religion about good works, rules, and regulations which you will see in a lot of others. Its about a "relationship". If you have a solid relationship with God you are naturally going to want to be obedient so the good works, etc. with follow suit. Kinda like if you love your parents you try to be obedient to them. Granted nobodies perfect so you will fail/sin. Howver, this is another difference in Cristianity......the grace and mercy of God. He knows you are not perfect and will screw up. Your human. However, if you are sincere in your asking for forgiveness, he forgives. Christianity is like the PERFECT parent/child relationship. As your parent he wants nothing but the best for you and will love you know matter what, even if you don't love him.
While I believe that Satan is a very powerful person, masquerading around as God I don't believe is one of his attributes. Biblically they are two different people and I take the Bible to be the absolute truth. They are poeple of completely opposite character with completely opposite goals and objectives.
In regards to what if I am wrong? Well then I will will go threw life with a heart for God and All individuals, die, and that its I guess. If I am right, I have an eternity waiting for me in heaven. Win, win in my book. What if you are wrong and the Bible is absolute truth?

So you don't question ANYTHING in the Bible?

If a girl came up to you today and said she NEVER had sex, but shes pregnant what would you think?

If some guy on tv said "I can part the sea", would you really believe him?

I'm not making fun of your belief in God. Something had to happen for us to be here today. I find it strange how most people say "the Bible says...." and the counter is usually always something like "Science proves...."

....good thing I'm not a good listener, or follower. Otherwise, I would be scared about who is really "right"..:wink:

Questions...sure I have some? Not believe.... no. I have no idea how some of the miracles in the Bible were done. And I won't know this side of eternity. It is not worth my time questioning what God does as he is on a level I can't even comprehend. That is where my Faith comes in to play. In life we can all agree that there is onle ONE absolute truth. I choose to place God and the Bible as my absolute truth. Others pick science or some other diety.

If I am a good person but do not believe in your God would I still get to your heaven?
i.e do non christians get to heaven?

If I am a good person but do not believe in your God would I still get to your heaven?
i.e do non christians get to heaven?

According to the Bible, no. Christianity is not a belief that is measured with good works. In order to go to heaven you need to be saved. There is no special recipe. However, here is a link to infomataion on the "sinner's prayer" which is a good place to start.

http://www.bible-knowledge.com/sinners-prayer.html

In order to go to heaven you need to be saved. There is no special recipe.

saved from what?
Religion is not needed to lead a good life that may be better (whatever that means) than your christian life.
i.e someone out there may be a better person than you are who has never sinned and has also done everything humanly possible to help his fellow human being.
Does that mean that this absoulte non-sinner (and virtual saint by your standards) won't get to your heaven?

Isn't the sinner's prayer an evangelical thing?
y'know, the thing they like to do via a television broadcast?

saved from what?
Religion is not needed to lead a good life that may be better (whatever that means) than your christian life.
i.e someone out there may be a better person than you are who has never sinned and has also done everything humanly possible to help his fellow human being.
Does that mean that this absoulte non-sinner (and virtual saint by your standards) won't get to your heaven?

Isn't the sinner's prayer an evangelical thing?
y'know, the thing they like to do via a television broadcast?Not unless they accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior. Being good isn't enough, you kiss some ass, too. :lol:

Ahhh.... that's where the whole "how to be a mass murderer and get into heaven" thing works....

Isn't there some statistic that points out how many murderers and whatever find god in prison (please resist that obvious one...)?

Ahhh.... that's where the whole "how to be a mass murderer and get into heaven" thing works....

Isn't there some statistic that points out how many murderers and whatever find god in prison (please resist that obvious one...)?

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven. Doesn't matter what you have done or where you are in your life. In the Bible Jesus spent the majority of his ministry with drunks, prosittues, tax collectors (i.e the bad guys) because he knew they were the ones that needed him most. He loves everyone the same, no matter what your situation.

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect, which is the most important part in my eyes.........Also, I am sure there are lots of people out there that have lead a "less" sinful life then I that are not saved. I am not perfect nor will ever prefess to be. I still sin daily. Thats part of being human. However, thankls to God's grace I can be forgiven. As a Christian I also think you tend to feel conviction a whole lot more. Helps keep you in line I suppose.

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven.

So the answer as to whether a saint by Christian standards, who isn't a Christian, is that he/she won't go to your Heaven?

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect

without meaning any disrespect, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
The only comment I have here is that it doesn't matter what or how you prefer to refer to Christianity, it is, especially in your country a religion that is tied to politics. That is not to mention that the religion itself is ultimately based on a set of rules that it defines so yes, it involves laws.

Your mention of relationship confuses me. A relationship is the interaction between two beings. What exactly do you get from God that makes it a relationship? In more modern terms, it is in my mind, akin to unrequited love which as we all know, isn't a relationship because it is 100% one sided.

Of course, you could be talking philosophically but then that again has no bearing on Christianity as a whole because that would be personal to you and hence not apply to all Christianity.

Incidentally, what Church are you two?

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.

Here's my viewpoint on mass-murderers going to heaven. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life"

If one truly believes in Jesus, then that person will lead a good life. That doesn't mean only that you believe He exists, you must try to follow His teachings. If you fail, it doesn't matter, but you do have to try. Humans are weak, and we give into temptation, what is important is that we do our best to do what Jesus would want us to do.

It is a relationship. Think of it this way: God is always with you, whether you want him there or not. Now think of a person you know that you don't especially like that you never gave a chance by getting to know him, lets say you work with this person. You go through your day and ignore this person the best you can, though he is always with you. Then one day you go into work and find out that he quit. You're estatic! As the day goes on, you find yourself working harder and harder, yet are falling further and further behind. Although you didn't want this person there, you realize how much he did, and start to wish he was back. You might even start to miss him once he is gone. When he was with you, you took everything for granted, you certainly didn't think you had a relationship with this person. Did you? Absolutely. A relationship with God is similar (although it did sound better in my head, but it is difficult to explain). If you don't realize what he is doing, you might ask things like "what relationship". An example, which I'm sure you'll say is a coincidence, was one day when I was taking groceries home. I took as many bags as I could carry in one hand to the front door and opened it and went inside. I went back outside to get the rest of the bags, which was the most I could possibly carry. I didn't think I could get all of them, but I did manage to, carrying a gallon of milk by each pinky finger and about 10 bags around the rest of my fingers. This day was the calmest day I remember, I'm outside all day, and not once did I feel even a slight breeze. When I get to the door, I think "Oh, s***, I should have proped the door open!" My storm door closes all but the last inch by a spring, but doesn't latch unless you push or pull it shut yourself. As I took a step back to set the groceries down so I could open the door, a very strong gust of wind caught the door and threw it open, once I was inside, it stopped and the door shut behind me. You probably see that as a coincidence, but what about when you went into work in the morning and there was a pot of coffee made already? Your co-worker made the coffee, but when you go into work, you don't think of that. All you think of is "Hey!, coffee!".

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.
Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.

When I responded to you post about your brother stabbing you (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=911077, for everyone else), I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life. Clearly you havn't, but since this is a more appropriate thread, here goes!:
You said you thought that you were going to die, and that you are afraid of death. When an injury is inflicted, the pain is not as bad as it gets later. I've had some very deep cuts, one of which hit an artery. There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind). I'm assuming it would be the same in your case. Now, once you're at the hospital, you know you're not going to die from an arm/shoulder injury. It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die? Death and pain are clearly different, and I know you can distinguish between them. If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either :2cents:

Oh, and I really do feel bad for you, and I don't want to make light of your situation, but I do think it brings up a very valid point.


And about prisoners "finding God" (I personally believe God finds you when you're ready, not the other way around)... you have very little to do in prison other than to think. That's kindda the whole point of prison...

But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.


There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population) :2cents:

There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population) :2cents:

HAHA! Oh man I haven't seen such blatant flame bait before. Here I'll throw some of my own around. We'll see who bites first.


I figured now would be a good time to state this. Just so people know, atheists and religious types are exactly the same. Thrasher, or any atheist for that matter, here thinks he's better or smarter than a Christian or religious type, he's not.

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.

So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.

Much like, yes the religious, who have no opinion and believe in something greater than themselves. In this case it's a higher being.

Now before somebody goes spouting of that their beliefs and blind following are justified compared to the religious, they're not. Here's how.

All things are made of molecules. All molecules, all things, are made of atoms.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.

http://www.csdf.k12.ca.us/student_life/events/01/sciencefair/atom.jpg
http://www.csdf.k12.ca.us/student_life/events/01/sciencefair/atom.jpg

Here we have an atom representing the cloth of a car's front seat. The other atom representing 37 year old man named Tod with a wife and kids.

Can you spot the difference?

These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values.

There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.

Coming back to the original point of atheist blindly and willingly believing in something greater than themselves, just like the Christian saying we're all going to hell.

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.


You are smarter than that man. Come on.

That one sentence is a staw man argument, and a display of some pretty good irony.

Thrasher was spot on when it comes to the atheist logic, but in that one sentence Tang you are slightly incorrect.

Atheists, are not more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folks because if you can prove to us that God exists we will CEASE to be atheists.

If you can prove Evolution did not happen we will CEASE to accept evolution.

If you can prove that belief in a deity is logically acceptable in rational thought, than we will CEASE to accept our logic as the only reasonable form of thinking.


We can prove God does not exist (or has no need to exist - Prof. Victor J. Stenger), but you can't even prove Jesus existed. We've debunked creationism time and time again to the point that 12 years olds can debate creationist fundamentalists and win.

Atheists are not militant to their beliefs, because we are so close minded that we are only prepared to engaged in REALITY. I know it sounds unreasonable to anyone with a religious conviction, but if something isn't real that it seems that us atheists have a built in, automatic prejudice, that's right, a PREJUDICE, against pretending that it IS REAL.
In fact, I'm so close minded, when it comes to believing absurdities, and you won't believe this, but atheists actually require PROOF of what we believe in, that's right, hard-core forensic proof that will stand up in a court of law, of why we believe what we believe and perceive to be true.

And I think we both know that your scripture won't furnish that proof, even if you talked until the end of time.


The Christian logic is that water is liquid, therefore God exists.

The Atheists logic is water has surface tension and viscosity, therefore water is liquid.

We are open to science, which is a self-correcting process, when evidence arises that contradicts previous conclusions, laws, theories, hypotheses are THROWN OUT and NEW beliefs are formed based on NEW EVIDENCE.

We are not more devoted, because if something contradicts our belief, we are the first to CHANGE our belief.

How many religions do that? NONE



So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.
This is a flat contradiction of the idea of religion.
Religion is based on faith, a belief without evidence.

Atheists, like my self, accept that in which science has proven. That which has evidence to SUPPORT a theory, and the logic of correction which is a concept zero religions accept nor understand.

We do not give up our opinion and believe in something, we form our opinions based on overwhelming, avalanches of evidence. We accept evolution because the evidence overwhelming points to evolution. We do not accept the earth is 6,000 years old because it CONTRADICTS the physical evidence.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.

I see what you're doing there and I am not impressed.

You are taking Atheism, and attributing scientific jargon to immoral and illegal sex acts (which does not even make any sense), that I can only assume you attribute atheism to. That is a straw man again, and SHAME on you for bringing up such nonsense.

Atheism is not a belief, its LACK of belief, therefore your straw man argument that we see no difference in murdering a person and a tree is just insane, atheists believe more so in value of life than religious because we do not KILL and MURDER and SLAUGHTER for what we believe in.

I fail to understand why you compared ethical and moral values with atomic chemistry, a field of science that you have obviously zero understanding in.

Your two diagrams just make no sense.


There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.
So what you're saying is that because we don't believe in God, well actually we reject the concept (there is a difference), therefore we accept that we are nothing more than an arrangment of atoms?

You're right, we can't deny that because...Aww I dunno...

perhaps that in a nut shell that is fact not fiction

All you're doing is claiming we have no value for life, but you're doing it in a way that is creating a staw man argument in an attempt to convince your self that the religious (particular those who follow Christianity) have both the moral high ground AND the logical thinking required to justify a belief in the supernatural. Distorting our end just makes your argument weightless.

Responding to J-Ri:


Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.
The onus is on the believer to show evidence to why they believe what they believe. This is a justified part of science, and does not change.

I have a clear understanding of that which I reject. I disbelieve in God both as a concept and a purported concretion. I was raised a Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and was raised as such.

Faith is belief without evidence, or as Mark Twain said: "faith is believing in something you know isn't true".

It is by mere chance that you born into the family that brought you up to believe what you believe, if you were raised in any other part of world, or history you could believe in other Gods that you reject, like Zeus, Apollo, or Thor.

You have faith in a God because that is what religion requires of you, there is no evidence or proof that he exists other than in the mind of delusional crazy people who claim hallucinations which can be explained scientifically (taken LSD recently?).

The burden of proof relies on ANYONE with a claim of truth. If you claim the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, you better have proof to back it up, and we do.

If you claim God exists, you better have pretty damn good evidence to back it up, and you do not. Only 'faith'. The entire concept of faith is flawed, and it is for this reason I reject a Deity. If you were to give evidence in court that, say for example, someone robbed the local liquor store, you are called to the stand, and you say that you cannot identify the man, you never saw him, but you have 'faith' that he did it. Lets now say that your religion demands that you require faith for any proposition you hold true under penalty of the false dichotomy of going to hell, no matter the cause. By your logic the man is guilty because you have faith that he is guilty, not evidence or proof, but faith.


There are literally thousands of Gods who have been invented by man over the past tens of thousands of years, in fact, here is a list of Gods that you do not believe in (http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html)

It is by mere chance that one particular Roman leader was convinced to allow all religions in the Roman empire tolerable. His successor made it the religion of the empire, and that is why you were brought up in a Christian world.

It makes me sad people still believe ancient superstition, and want it taught in schools.

I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life.
When God appears to me, I will believe in God, but until then, I am still awaiting for Kanayama-hime to appear to me so I can believe in him...her...

There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind)
Was it as cold for you too? Damn air conditioner was on freezing, and it was quite uncomfortable yeah. When you lose a lot of blood and sit up, you nearly throw up it's horrible!

It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die?
Yeah I accept that my thoughts were quite irrational, but I was afraid to die because I enjoy breathing.

If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either


It's possibly not dying I think people are afraid of, I think it's that they never do what they wanted. Personally, I wanted to spend more time with Dad, travel the world, do more sweet burn outs, and finish uni. But there is nothing after we die, only speculation. The Christian view of life after death is not the only concept thought by man. The Egyptians believed in life after death for pharaohs, kings and queens, Christianity said anyone can have eternal life, and is the only driving factor in the rise of Christianity in the 1st century C.E. It was not the only cult at the time to offer eternal salvation, local plebs in Rome, a male-only cult worshiped Horace, but never caught on because women and children were not allowed.

Why do you not follow that cult? Logical deduction - it's all a load of speculative bullshit.

Besides, according to Mark 3:29 I'm doomed anyway.

Well, it looks like the Intelligent Design people were right.

81XolzElwR4

I love that video, particularly at 1:38 into it when the host says “I make the biggest discovery in the history of humanity”. What an arrogant ass.

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?
Nope, and I'm not going to believe that the invisible man waved his arms around and farted it out either.

The earth and universe is infinitely more complex than an automobile.

If an automobile needs an intelligent maker and designer, how much more this world and universe!

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline) in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers.

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence. :)

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe. :)

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it. Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline)Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.
You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!! in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers. Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." :)

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence. :) Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."
I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe. :)So does Darwinism!