The 'Inteligant Design' website

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website" :grinyes:

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

Read the first post in this thread. It's self explanatory:
I miss spelt Intelligent on purpose, because there is nothing intelligent about it.



Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.

You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!!

Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." :)Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."

I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

So does Darwinism!

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality. :)

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website" :grinyes:

You obviously didn't bother reading the first post before replying to this thread.

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality. :)

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1540/bigclap.gifWell said.

The Christian belief that Earth is only 6000 years old and the center of the universe, shows a complete disregard for science and things that have already been proven. Just take a look at our place in the universe.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2706/spaceb.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/spaceb.jpg/)

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)
Right!

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do. :dunno:

And Blazee, I might have glanced over the first post, but didn't see his comment, sorry.

if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

what you are supposing is akin to asking why can't we grow hamburgers.


creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

Right!But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do. :dunno:


As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes. :)

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe. There is no divine plan behind it. These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe.
For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically, which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .

As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes. :)

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe.There is no divine plan behind itYou might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe. These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe. But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)
For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically,So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all. If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .
creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion. :)

You might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe.
Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true.

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well.


But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.
You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence.

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.


Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too. :)

It is a logical fallacy to say that just because we do not completely understand a thing or a process that somehow a magical man (or woman) made it.
It has been proven that matter and energy tend to organize themselves in particular, predictable ways. Given the tremendous length of time that life has existed on Earth (3.5 ++ billion years) that something as organized as mammals has come of it.

Again, life is similar to physics... when it is scientifically explored, it turns out to be predictable and obeys specific, understandible principles of chemistry and physics.

Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion. :)
You're welcome. I am actually a bible college graduate. I love studying and debating theology. If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true. I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe. But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic) If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well. Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?



You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence. And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.



Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too. :)How?



Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

:cwm27:

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head.

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.
Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice.


I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe. A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'. :)


But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic) I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon.



If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa.


Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?
Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events.

And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?
I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc.

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN) and the Large Hadron Observatory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) among others)

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him?

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be?


How?
If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people? :)


Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.
Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'? :)

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.

As for Newton, he was a product of a much different time. Back in Newtons' day, religious organizations played a much more significan role in people's lives.

Besides, it would appear he was an extremely unconventional Christian, for his time, so who knows what motivated him.

Historian Stephen D. Snobelen says of Newton, "Isaac Newton was a heretic. But ... he never made a public declaration of his private faith — which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs."[49] Snobelen concludes that Newton was at least a Socinian sympathiser (he owned and had thoroughly read at least eight Socinian books), possibly an Arian and almost certainly an antitrinitarian[49]. In an age notable for its religious intolerance there are few public expressions of Newton's radical views, most notably his refusal to take holy orders and his refusal, on his death bed, to take the sacrament when it was offered to him

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head. NP


Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice. It is really a lot a matter of faith and finding the right life occupation God has for me. I don't believe it's appropriate for a woman to be teaching adult men theology in a classroom setting, now I wouldn't mind teaching grade school boys, and girls or women bible and theology, and at times in my life I have had ministries where I have done that (Sunday school, jail ministry).

A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'. :)

I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon. I agree with most of what you say here (not the part that I'm mixing apples and oranges).
It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together. Also you have no conclusive proof no god was involved in the phenomenon of the universe




Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa. My point was, if no intellect was involved in putting the universe together, then LOGICALLY there should be no need for intelligence to figure it out.

the answer to why people strive to better themselves is, they know and see they are imperfect and are trying to become perfect, where most fall short is in admitting no human will reach perfection UNLESS a holy creator intervenes to make them perfect (thats where Christ comes in.):)


Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events. I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx


I will respond to the rest a little later.

It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together.

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists?

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?

People who believe in God do not require scientific proof or material evidence that God exists. That is why their belief is referred to as "faith". Most believers are either taught by their parents to have faith, or they have some kind of spiritual experience that changes them. Believers can't impart faith on those who don't believe, and non-believers can't prove to believers that God does not exist, mainly because their belief is based on "faith" and not "proof".

I believe in God just to cover my ass. I mean, if there really is a God I want all of the benefits that believers are supposed to get in the afterlife (free satellite TV, Medicare, 1000 virgins, etc...). And if there is no God then no harm done.

I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

It's interesting that Gohan mentions faith, as I was considering that aspect recently.
According to Websters. faith can mean "a firm belief in something with which there is no proof. "

Having faith means that proof is not required at all, and one can therefore, ignore any and all evidence to the contrary. So, no amount of scientific proof can dispel true religious faith. How can one debate someone with such faith?

Hence we come to Gerald Scroeder's site (thank you for the link). His beliefs are groundless, from a scientific point of view, and are easily defeated, given current knolwdge of atomic physics vs. the story of Genesis. (If you ask me how, I would be happy to explain).

I find it interesting that religious people will add to biblical stories and fables to make them fit current evidence, or produce their own 'evidence' to make the stories fit current evidence. I have found this a VERY common theme amongst religious people; to come up with little rules/interpretations/explanations that are simply not in the Bible to explain the inconsistencies of the Bible and the world around them.

The Book of Genesis was written for humans in human terms. To claim it is now inaccurate because it was written in Big-bang stretched time is nonsense. The original writers and readers of Genesis were simple middle-Eastern folk and knew nothing of such concepts. Wouldn't god make an appropriate conversion?

But, that is the miracle of such fables.... they can be changed, altered, twisted to fit etc because they are written for the faithful. Their faith means that a reasonable, accurate explanation is not required, they will believe anyways.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, I really do not intend it to be so :)

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists? The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter.

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message. Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter. intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

It IS an indication of intelligence!

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message.Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence. Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc. Hmm, all these INTELLIGENT guys like Newton and Einstein came up with principles that explain the universe, do you think maybe THEY created it?:cool:

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN) and the Large Hadron Observatory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) among others) After they find out those "unknowns", do you think they will be able to create another universe on their own?:tongue:

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god. The buck must stop somewhere, you say the big bang, I say God.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?You are right there are many gods out there, made by man, but only one TRUE God created by no one. Yes the false Gods do conflict with the true God, thats why the book of Revelation tells how God (the True) will END the conflict!

And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.
(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian):smile:

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him? That is the mystery of Christianity, but John tells us in 1st John that God is love.

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be? The powers that be are of God. He gives power to whom he will. He has given power to Satan for a time.


If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people? :)He gave mankind a choice whether to obey him or not, the choice resulted in sin and imperfection.


Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'? :)no

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.
That comment shows the imperfection of scientists, not that there is no creator God.

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.



And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.


As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date.

(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian):smile: .

Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.

But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? :) )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.





As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.Allah is only 1 person, Jehovah is 3 persons and one God. How could they be the same?

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date. Many "Christians" believe and quote false doctrine too!



Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.Wrong, according to this youtube audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5_djbuagc


But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? :) )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM (http://www.wsu.edu/%7Edee/REFORM/WARS.HTM)
I see no place on that site that says the Christian God ordered those wars.

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.Muslims also don't have an account with MANY witnesses of Allah becoming incarnate, and rising from the dead.
They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!

They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!A lot of people claim to see Bigfoot, too. Doesn't make it true...

I think that you are missing what he is asking for. He wants facts and examples to support your stance. Your replies are merely rhetoric.

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.

It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales. :)

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong.

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law.

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? :) Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.
MR, your are the most polite Atheist I have come across!:)
It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales. :)Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles ( not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong. That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law. The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings:(, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? :) Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?Remember, the New Testament is actually MANY sources and many authors compiled together.
This site also give secular evidence for Jesus:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles (not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Do you think it is by accident that most of the world's richest nations aren't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs?

That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

The difference being in the case of a known crime, the event is known to have happened. Religion is based on an event that isn't proven to have happened.

The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings:(, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

not comparable - straw man.
if you insisit it is comparable then I would agree that in your scenario, perhaps we should get rid of religious people just like we should get rid of people who would run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings.

finally, that site insists that the Bible is a valid source for the proof of the existance of Jesus, which I should add, isn't the only thing being discussed here - existance of Jesus does not prove existance of a god.

First of all, as an athiest, I have no objection to Jesus. Chances are, he did exist.
I also believe that he was probably a rabbi with unconventional ideas that irritated the religious establishment of the day. But, son of god? No, because god does not exist. :)

As for the Judeo-Christian nations.... there are many good socio-political reasons for the economic and political success of the West.

They have nothing to do with any alleged will of god, but are rooted in thousands of years of historic, social, military and political forces that originally pre-date the Judeo-Christian belief system.

For example, our much of our social and political philosophy and organization structure were based on the ancient Greek ideals (further popularized by ancient Rome) from a time when they were polytheistic pagans.

This is a good book of the subject. : http://www.tvfactual.co.uk/triumph_of_the_west.htm

As monkey suggests, if a christian god were really running things around here, how do you explain that most of the West is now dependent on fundamentalist Islamic oil and in atheist-communist-sometimes Buddhist Chinese investment capital and manufacturing?

Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence.

Nature is proof to you - not to "all people". You're giving us your interpretation the firmament and of gods proof and it's about as accurate (or inaccurate) as Shroeder's or anyone else's interpretation. God is something different to different people - including non-believers.

Are there any Theist car enthusiasts on this forum???


Tonight my church had the first night of an annual missions conference.

The missionary who preached was talking about how God works in peoples hearts. To illustrate how God knows what peoples hearts need he gave the example of a guy who builds a car engine knowing the engine needs oil, water and other things, just as God knows what people need since he made them.:cool:

It made me think of all you guys here!:rofl:

Are there any Theist car enthusiasts on this forum???

Well, I don't think anyone here wants to give you personally a difficult time for your beliefs. I think that you have been a very good and gracious defendent for the theology side of the debate. :)

Hmmm... thiests...... personally I like my thiest friends and family. I like most Christians. I like the thoughtfulness, charitable attitude, sense of fellowship and support that most Christians exhibit.
Much of modern, western Christianity brings out the finest, most generous parts of the human psyche.

There are many non-religious people who exhibit the same fine characteristics. Imo morality flows from the individual person and does not need some kind of celestial dictatorship to being it forth.

I guess you could say I make a distinction between the characteristics and benefits of Christianity from the organized religion aspect. Religious organizers imo tend to be a bit too fanatical. They are too much about religious rules/dogma/divine threats etc, and not enough about the human element.

For example, I have 2 friends (a married couple) who are Jehovas Witnesses (actually, one is Catholic, the other Jewish, but their JW relatives and friends placed such pressure upon them to convert, they have given up fighting it)

Their son died tragically at age 25. The funeral was a JW affair, the content of which I found offensive.

Not ONE WORD was mentioned about the deceased, his life, his fine characteristics, hopes/dreams/wishes etc. The entire funeral was about reading biblical passages and reminding the mourners about god's role in their lives.

Total nonsense imo, and entirely inappropriate under the circumstances.
The funeral should be about the deceased, not the JW's radical interpretation of christianity.

Do you think it is by accident that most of the world's richest nations aren't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs?
No, according to this site: http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/ The U.S. is the richest Country going by GDP and Liechenstein, in the second list by per capita, (a country in between Austria and switzerland) is mostly Catholic and protestant (Roman Catholic 76.2%, Protestant 7%). On the first list 7 of the top ten countries are Judeo christian based and six of the top ten in the second list.

So you facts are wrong DM.




The difference being in the case of a known crime, the event is known to have happened. Religion is based on an event that isn't proven to have happened.

In the case of the univese, the "crime scene" is the universe!
( An event we can't deny happened, we live in it!)

Well, I don't think anyone here wants to give you personally a difficult time for your beliefs. I think that you have been a very good and gracious defendent for the theology side of the debate. :)
Thanks MR!
That's quite the opposite view when I debate on Atheist forums.

They can and do get down right insulting to any Theist who challenges their beliefs, with few exceptions.
Hmmm... thiests...... personally I like my thiest friends and family. I like most Christians. I like the thoughtfulness, charitable attitude, sense of fellowship and support that most Christians exhibit.
Much of modern, western Christianity brings out the finest, most generous parts of the human psyche. Then why not become one?:smile:

There are many non-religious people who exhibit the same fine characteristics. Imo morality flows from the individual person and does not need some kind of celestial dictatorship to being it forth.This is why born again Christians say their faith is a RELATIONSHIP (with Christ) not merely a religion.

I guess you could say I make a distinction between the characteristics and benefits of Christianity from the organized religion aspect. Religious organizers imo tend to be a bit too fanatical. They are too much about religious rules/dogma/divine threats etc, and not enough about the human element.

For example, I have 2 friends (a married couple) who are Jehovas Witnesses (actually, one is Catholic, the other Jewish, but their JW relatives and friends placed such pressure upon them to convert, they have given up fighting it)

Their son died tragically at age 25. The funeral was a JW affair, the content of which I found offensive.

Not ONE WORD was mentioned about the deceased, his life, his fine characteristics, hopes/dreams/wishes etc. The entire funeral was about reading biblical passages and reminding the mourners about god's role in their lives.

Total nonsense imo, and entirely inappropriate under the circumstances.
The funeral was about the deceased, not the JW's radical interpretation of christianity.JW's are their own sect, denying the deity of Christ, that is NOT true Christianity, thus not exhibiting the true spirit of Christianity.

Thanks MR!
That's quite the opposite view when I debate on Atheist forums.

They can and do get down right insulting to any Theist who challenges their beliefs, with few exceptions.

Then why not become one?:smile:
So..... you cruise the 'Net looking to convert people, hmmm??:)

Heaven knows, the car enthusiasts need saving :lol2:

Most Christians that I know, especially the decent, generous, thoughtful ones, tend to pick-and-choose the parts of Christianity that they like or find useful and discard the rest.

Most do not believe the bible to be literal fact, but believe it to be a guide, with metaphorical (not literal) morality stories

I do not believe I am so different in the end product than most Christians. I try to live a moral, proper and decent life, having empathy and concern for others and trying not to do harm.

The difference is that I do not belive in the 'celestial dictatorship' of god. There is imo no evidence of it, and I feel I must be true to what I know to be fact. I do not believe I need the carrot of heaven or the stick of eternal damnation to tell me how to be a good person. But I can see how others could use such a story in an attempt to manipulate people.

Imo organized religion is more about the power and control some people strive to have over others. It bothers me that religious people are expected to expose themselves to Sunday propeganda in order to prove their worth.

So, I am not religious, in the traditional sense, because I cannot morally go along with the organizational aspect of religion, because I feel it is manipulative and harmful.

Hmmmmm..... I'm an atheist due to my moral principles..... what a concept :)

So..... you cruise the 'Net looking to convert people, hmmm??:)
Actually I stumbled upon an Atheist forum while looking for an answer to a random question. When I saw their discussions, I joined in and got hooked on debating them!
Heaven knows, the car enthusiasts need saving :lol2:

Most Christians that I know, especially the decent, generous, thoughtful ones, tend to pick-and-choose the parts of Christianity that they like or find useful and discard the rest. It only appears that way to non-believers, because of their lack of understanding of bible doctrine and theology.

Most do not believe the bible to be literal fact, but believe it to be a guide, with metaphorical (not literal) morality stories Not all people who profess to be Christians are Christians. ( If you don't believe the book that is the foundation of Christianity, how could you be a true Christian, a real believer?

I do not believe I am so different in the end product than most Christians. I try to live a moral, proper and decent life, having empathy and concern for others and trying not to do harm. Where do the rules for moral, proper and decent living come from?


Imo organized religion is more about the power and control some people strive to have over others. It bothers me that religious people are expected to expose themselves to Sunday propeganda in order to prove their worth. Again, Christianity is a relationship, not just a religion. if you ever want to observe unadulterated Christianity in a church setting, try going to an independent Baptist church. Baptist Doctrine aligns most closely to the bible than most any other denomination.
Also...

As a mechanic, would you be able to prove your worth as a mechanic without showing up at the garage to work on cars regularly?


Hmmmmm..... I'm an atheist due to my moral principles..... what a concept :)

No, according to this site: http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/ The U.S. is the richest Country going by GDP and Liechenstein, in the second list by per capita, (a country in between Austria and switzerland) is mostly Catholic and protestant (Roman Catholic 76.2%, Protestant 7%). On the first list 7 of the top ten countries are Judeo christian based and six of the top ten in the second list.

So you facts are wrong DM.

fair enough but the point still stands even if there were a single non Judeo-Christian country in the top ten; Judeo-Christianity isn't a cause for wealth or power.


In the case of the univese, the "crime scene" is the universe!
( An event we can't deny happened, we live in it!)

Not what you were saying before.
Your initial point of comparison is that a god creating the universe is the disputed "fact" that there are many differeing eye witness accounts of.

If you want to continue with this analogy and the universe if the crime scene, then currently we are still looking for the perpetrator; not as you are insisting that one has already been found.

You know, I probably should just ask you to dance because we certainly are just going around in circles here :)

It only appears that way to non-believers, because of their lack of understanding of bible doctrine and theology.

Not all people who profess to be Christians are Christians. ( If you don't believe the book that is the foundation of Christianity, how could you be a true Christian, a real believer?
So, does this mean that anyone who disagrees with you on a point of theology is not a Christian? How much deviation is tolerable?

All the serious Christians that I have ever known believe THEY are correct and everyone else is wrong. Imo it takes a pretty enlightened Christian to truly accept and respect the differences between the myriad of Christian franchises.

For example, many of my friends are Catholic and they found it quite peculiar that the Anglicans (me, back then) believed in only 3 Sacraments and not the 7 that they had. They were convinced that things like confession was essential to get into heaven.

Imo these differences, and they way that so many decent Christians are convinced of such differing views tells me that none are credible and all are wrong.


Where do the rules for moral, proper and decent living come from?
Humans have evolved to have cultural and social morality.

For hundreds of thousands of years, humans have lived in small nomadic or hunter/gatherer communities.... and later, primitive farming.

In such communities, cooperation and abidance of the community laws and customs (a.k.a. morality) were essential to the survival of the community. People who did not follow the rules were forced out... or destroyed their community.... but usually would not have a chance to reproduce. So morality has evolved to become part of human nature.

Imo it is arrogant to assume that humans were amoral until about 3000 years ago when they suddenly discovered a magic man in the middle east to tell them how to behave.

Also, I know plenty of very moral, decent self-sacrificing athiests. Furthermore, much of our codified law is 'moral' but relies on common sense and not biblical instruction.

Finally, the bible is occasionally immoral and describes the most appauling acts of slaughter, apparently committed by god (and I really do not see any alleged christian forgiveness or tolerance here):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090603143244AAL22YE


Again, Christianity is a relationship, not just a religion. if you ever want to observe unadulterated Christianity in a church setting, try going to an independent Baptist church. Baptist Doctrine aligns most closely to the bible than most any other denomination.

Hmmmm, interesting.

My grandparents were Baptist. My grandfather lived in sheer terror of physical bodily resurrection. He was deeply fearful of being resurrected in a coffin underground, unable to escape. FWIW I could never see the benefit of convincing people of such fiction, only to make them terrified for decades.

Do independent Baptists study the bible in Arameic? In Latin? Imo, both are more accurate than a bible that has been sifted through multiple translations. :)

Next, I hope they "pick - and - choose" what they like in the bible, or else they too will be slave-owners (as allowed by the bible), and will be hoping for a great flood to kill everyone except.... those who happen to agree with them.

Oh yes, maybe I shouldn't joke about that one..... isn't that the Rapture that's supposed to be on it's way?


As a mechanic, would you be able to prove your worth as a mechanic without showing up at the garage to work on cars regularly?
I completely agree with you. If one wants to be good at something, one has to practice. The difference is....... various acts of mind control...... from something as innocent as television advertising all the way to cult - brainwashing use the same techniques as the typical Sunday service. It's all about adhering to a certain viewpoint and rejecting the rest.

PS. Please forgive me for the sarcasm.... it does tend to creep in on occasions....... it's not intended to be personal :)

PPS. I only pretend to be a mechanic, on the odd weekend. I'm actually a university-educated corporate manager with widely varying interests.

PPPS: Where do you thing the Westboro Baptist church fits into all of this?

fair enough but the point still stands even if there were a single non Judeo-Christian country in the top ten; Judeo-Christianity isn't a cause for wealth or power.On what basis do you say that? Judeo-Christian principles include hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him. It is no accident those nations sticking closest to biblical principles are the most successful. And a "rich" nation isn't necessarily a "powerful" one.




Not what you were saying before.
Your initial point of comparison is that a god creating the universe is the disputed "fact" that there are many differeing eye witness accounts of.

If you want to continue with this analogy and the universe if the crime scene, then currently we are still looking for the perpetrator; not as you are insisting that one has already been found.The evidence is overwhelming there is a creator.
Genetics, DNA, the complexity of life, are some of the evidence of a creator as opposed to an "accidental" big bang with no one orchestrating it.

You know, I probably should just ask you to dance because we certainly are just going around in circles here :)


So, does this mean that anyone who disagrees with you on a point of theology is not a Christian? How much deviation is tolerable? It is through faith in Christ, that he was and is the Son of God and God the Son, born of a virgin, without sin, died, was buried, rose again, has the power and will to forgive and clease your sin.
These beliefs are what save a person. It's what you do in your heart with Christ.
All other bible doctrines stem from there, but if you completely deny all or most of the bible you are denying Christ as well.

All the serious Christians that I have ever known believe THEY are correct and everyone else is wrong. Imo it takes a pretty enlightened Christian to truly accept and respect the differences between the myriad of Christian franchises. It doesn't matter what Christian denominations teach or what Christians "believe" and accept.
It's what is in the bible that counts.

For example, many of my friends are Catholic and they found it quite peculiar that the Anglicans (me, back then) believed in only 3 Sacraments and not the 7 that they had. They were convinced that things like confession was essential to get into heaven. Both Anglican and Catholic doctrines deviate from the bible.

Imo these differences, and they way that so many decent Christians are convinced of such differing views tells me that none are credible and all are wrong. I have been to many physicians that have misdiagnosed me.
But I have also been to physicians who correctly diagnosed my problems and got me well.
Because some doctors are wrong and quacks doesn't mean all physicians are.


Humans have evolved to have cultural and social morality.

For hundreds of thousands of years, humans have lived in small nomadic or hunter/gatherer communities.... and later, primitive farming.

In such communities, cooperation and abidance of the community laws and customs (a.k.a. morality) were essential to the survival of the community. People who did not follow the rules were forced out... or destroyed their community.... but usually would not have a chance to reproduce. So morality has evolved to become part of human nature.

Imo it is arrogant to assume that humans were amoral until about 3000 years ago when they suddenly discovered a magic man in the middle east to tell them how to behave. They were not amoral more than three thousand years ago.
The accounts in Genesis go back at least 4000 years before Christ.
Abel, the second son of Adam was a righteous (moral) person, spoken of in Hebrews 11 and in Matthew and Luke he is even named with the prophets of the O.T.

Also, I know plenty of very moral, decent self-sacrificing athiests. Furthermore, much of our codified law is 'moral' but relies on common sense and not biblical instruction.

Finally, the bible is occasionally immoral and describes the most appauling acts of slaughter, apparently committed by god (and I really do not see any alleged christian forgiveness or tolerance here):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090603143244AAL22YE

MR, do you believe punishment for crimes is immoral?

Hmmmm, interesting.

My grandparents were Baptist. My grandfather lived in sheer terror of physical bodily resurrection. He was deeply fearful of being resurrected in a coffin underground, unable to escape. FWIW I could never see the benefit of convincing people of such fiction, only to make them terrified for decades. God is NOT the author of fear.
Your grandfather had some other problems, not from Baptist doctrine.

Do independent Baptists study the bible in Arameic? In Latin? Imo, both are more accurate than a bible that has been sifted through multiple translations. :)I suggest you read the book "Defending The King James Bible" by D.A. waite.
You can purchase it at Chick publications. It goes into great detail of the quality of the KJV translations, and of the character and qualifications of the translators.



I completely agree with you. If one wants to be good at something, one has to practice. The difference is....... various acts of mind control...... from something as innocent as television advertising all the way to cult - brainwashing use the same techniques as the typical Sunday service. It's all about adhering to a certain viewpoint and rejecting the rest.Yes. The key is to make certain your view point is the correct view or you'll be sorry!

PS. Please forgive me for the sarcasm.... it does tend to creep in on occasions....... it's not intended to be personal :)I'll forgive you, so will Jesus if you ask him!

PPS. I only pretend to be a mechanic, on the odd weekend. I'm actually a university-educated corporate manager with widely varying interests. Corporate manager of an automotive company???

PPPS: Where do you thing the Westboro Baptist church fits into all of this?Those people are NOT filled with the spirit of Christ in their actions.
They make true christians look horrible.

On what basis do you say that? Judeo-Christian principles include hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him. It is no accident those nations sticking closest to biblical principles are the most successful. And a "rich" nation isn't necessarily a "powerful" one.

Because hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him is not exclusive to Christianity. If you remove the god honoring part, those qualities aren't exclusive to religion.

If it is a base in Christianity that is the cause for success then surely non-Christians would not be successful.
If non-Christians can be successful then that means you don't need Christianity to be successful; ergo, Judeo-Christianity in the country's founding isn't a cause for them being powerful/rich.

What do you think of the fact that a powerful (Christian) country like the US has 800 Billion dollars of treasury securities held by China and 720ish Billion dollars held by Japan; both not of Christian heritage?
If you look at it from a global economics point of view, the US is very much in the hands of China so what does that say about a country's power?

Yes, you are right, rich isn't neccessarily powerful but if anything, wouldn't you say that a country that inherently has wealth without having to do work i.e it is gifted the wealth, is something more akin to an act of a god to its people?
If a god was favouring its followers, would it not give free wealth to its own people instead of people of another faith. In that respect, wouldn't that give more weight to perhaps the god of the Middle East being the true God?


The evidence is overwhelming there is a creator.
Genetics, DNA, the complexity of life, are some of the evidence of a creator as opposed to an "accidental" big bang with no one orchestrating it.

This is just a 21st century version of ancient man looking at the Sun and going "oooh, magicaly ball in the sky give light; magic ball must be a god".
As many others have used as an example, until they could prove it, everyone including the Church believed that the Earth was flat and that Earth was at the centre of the Universe except science has given us the ability to look at things deeper.
Perhaps this is where science and religion has their biggest difference. Science is waiting to find new answers. Religion thinks it already has an answer and science will never be right.

If it is a base in Christianity that is the cause for success then surely non-Christians would not be successful.
If non-Christians can be successful then that means you don't need Christianity to be successful; ergo, Judeo-Christianity in the country's founding isn't a cause for them being powerful/rich.We are discussing Christian "principles", not Christianity as a belief system.
Yes if an unbeliever, non-Christian, follows biblical principles, even if they don't follow Christ, they will be honored by God for doing so.

What do you think of the fact that a powerful (Christian) country like the US has 800 Billion dollars of treasury securities held by China and 720ish Billion dollars held by Japan; both not of Christian heritage?
If you look at it from a global economics point of view, the US is very much in the hands of China so what does that say about a country's power?It says America has turned from God and obeying his commands, thereby giving their power into the hands of heathen nations. :(

Yes, you are right, rich isn't neccessarily powerful but if anything, wouldn't you say that a country that inherently has wealth without having to do work i.e it is gifted the wealth, is something more akin to an act of a god to its people?
If a god was favouring its followers, would it not give free wealth to its own people instead of people of another faith. In that respect, wouldn't that give more weight to perhaps the god of the Middle East being the true God?
Explain what you mean here even in the Middle east people must work for wealth.
AND God is the God of the Middle East (actually of the whole world.) But where is Israel located?:wink:



This is just a 21st century version of ancient man looking at the Sun and going "oooh, magicaly ball in the sky give light; magic ball must be a god".
As many others have used as an example, until they could prove it, everyone including the Church believed that the Earth was flat and that Earth was at the centre of the Universe except science has given us the ability to look at things deeper.
Perhaps this is where science and religion has their biggest difference. Science is waiting to find new answers. Religion thinks it already has an answer and science will never be right.DM, you didn't address the point that DNA and genetics (discovered by science and proven to be true) Show INTELLIGENT information and orgaization.

Here is some proof from NASA of the Bible being true:




*Thought this was pretty amazing and interesting!! For
all the scientists out there, and for all the students
who have a hard time convincing these people regarding
the truth of the Bible, here's something that shows
God's awesome creation, and that He is still in control. *

*Did you know that the space program is busy proving
that what has been called 'myth' in the Bible is true? *

*Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company
in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space
program, relates the following development. *

*'I think one of the most amazing things that God has
done for us today happened recently to our astronauts
and space scientists at Green Bel**t**,** * *Maryland* *. *

*They were checking out where the positions of the sun,
moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years
from now. We have to know this so we won't send up a
satellite and have it bump into something later on in
its orbits. *


*We have to lay out the orbits in terms of
the life of the=2 0satellite and where the
planets will be so the whole thing will not
bog down. *


*They ran the computer measurement back and
forth over the centuries, and it came to a
halt. The computer stopped and put up a red
signal, which meant that there was something
wrong with either the information fed into
it or with the results as compared to the
standards. *


*They called in the service department to
check it out, and they said, 'What's wrong?'
Well, they found there is a day missing in
space in elapsed time. *


*They scratched their heads and tore their
hair out. There was no answer. *


*Finally a Christian man on the team said,
'You know, one time I was in Sunday School,
and they talked about the sun standing
still.' While they didn't believe him, they
didn't have an answer either, so they said,
'Show us, ' *


*He got a Bible and went to the book of
Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous
statement for any one with 'common sense.' *


*There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, *


*'Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand;
there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.' *


*Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the
enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them.
So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still!
That's right.... 'The sun stood still and the moon
stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!' *

*(Joshua 10:12-13) *


*The astronauts and scientists said, There is the
missing day! They checked the computers going back into
the time it was written and found it was close but not
close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in
Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes**,** **not a
whole day.. *


*They read the Bible, and there it was about
[approximately] a day.. These little words in the Bible
are important, but they were still in trouble because if
you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in
trouble 1000 years from now. *


*Forty minutes had to be found because it can be
multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian
employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in
the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. *


*The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but
they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings
that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death
bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that
he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as
proof. Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10
degrees?' *


*Hezekiah said, 'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead
10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10
degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought
the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly
40 minutes!' *


*Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40
minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the
universe! Isn't it amazing? *


*References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,** **13 and 2 Kings
20:9-11. *

Here is some proof from NASA of the Bible being true:
Okay, let me be the first one to call this story nonsense.

It took me only about 10 seconds to come up with a bouquet of sites that consider this story to be completely untrue and has NOTHING to do with NASA:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/joshuaday.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/nasaspoof.html
http://www.progressivetheology.org/principles/Missing-Day.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1117.asp
http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_nasa_missing_day2.htm

Even religious researchers consider this story to be groundless:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2005/08/Joshuas-Long-Day-and-Mesopotamian-Celestial-Omen-Texts.aspx


Seriously, CL8, how can you possibly pass off such a deeply flawed story as any kind of 'proof'? Imho, it only serves to debase your argument and erode your credibility. Imho whoever fed you that load of nonsense is manipulating you. Frankly, the fact that you attempted to pass it off here as being true (without any verification) shows that you are all to willing to be manipulated.

But do not feel bad, religion is all about manipulation. :)

Since it seems that the bible is the basis for your understanding of truth and the universe in general, perhaps you should read about its recent revision:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/group-of-us-conservatives-rewrite-the-bible/article1319247/

Before you dismiss such a re-write as not being the 'true' bible, consider that ALL bibles are written, translated and transcribed by humans, not god. It is a product of human, not divine minds, and thus subject to bias and flaws... to manipulate people. I think one of the commentators on that Globe and Mail article says it best:

Ah, so these right wing "christians" are finally admitting that the bible is not the word of god, but merely the word of folks who want to dominate and impose their beliefs on the rest of humanity. Thanks for the clarification and for coming out of the closet, but it wasn't really that much of a secret anymore.

Finally, I thought it was odd enough that you compared christian theology ( a deeply flawed and fractured account of fictional mythology and events) to doctors and medicine (a precise, measurable and provable practice). Comparing the two is unfounded and utterly illogical as they have nothing in common related to their processes in arriving at a likely or quantifiable scenario.

I find it somewhat amusing, (and predictable) that any christian who does not follow your particular religious interpretation (and it seems like that's most christians) is wrong or deviant. Frankly, it harms your argument to claim that many millions of Catholics, Anglicans, JW's etc. are wrong because it radicalizes your viewpoint.

I dismissed much of your arguments as religious hyperbole... that is, it's your opinion. But to pass off obviously false NASA stories as being true means you have little credibility on this subject. Respectfully, this debate has come to an end.... at least for me :).




e:
*Thought this was pretty amazing and interesting!! For
all the scientists out there, and for all the students
who have a hard time convincing these people regarding
the truth of the Bible, here's something that shows
God's awesome creation, and that He is still in control. *

*Did you know that the space program is busy proving
that what has been called 'myth' in the Bible is true? *

*Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company
in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space
program, relates the following development. *

*'I think one of the most amazing things that God has
done for us today happened recently to our astronauts
and space scientists at Green Bel**t**,** * *Maryland* *. *

*They were checking out where the positions of the sun,
moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years
from now. We have to know this so we won't send up a
satellite and have it bump into something later on in
its orbits. *


*We have to lay out the orbits in terms of
the life of the=2 0satellite and where the
planets will be so the whole thing will not
bog down. *


*They ran the computer measurement back and
forth over the centuries, and it came to a
halt. The computer stopped and put up a red
signal, which meant that there was something
wrong with either the information fed into
it or with the results as compared to the
standards. *


*They called in the service department to
check it out, and they said, 'What's wrong?'
Well, they found there is a day missing in
space in elapsed time. *


*They scratched their heads and tore their
hair out. There was no answer. *


*Finally a Christian man on the team said,
'You know, one time I was in Sunday School,
and they talked about the sun standing
still.' While they didn't believe him, they
didn't have an answer either, so they said,
'Show us, ' *


*He got a Bible and went to the book of
Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous
statement for any one with 'common sense.' *


*There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, *


*'Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand;
there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.' *


*Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the
enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them.
So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still!
That's right.... 'The sun stood still and the moon
stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!' *

*(Joshua 10:12-13) *


*The astronauts and scientists said, There is the
missing day! They checked the computers going back into
the time it was written and found it was close but not
close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in
Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes**,** **not a
whole day.. *


*They read the Bible, and there it was about
[approximately] a day.. These little words in the Bible
are important, but they were still in trouble because if
you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in
trouble 1000 years from now. *


*Forty minutes had to be found because it can be
multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian
employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in
the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. *


*The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but
they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings
that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death
bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that
he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as
proof. Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10
degrees?' *


*Hezekiah said, 'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead
10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10
degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought
the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly
40 minutes!' *


*Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40
minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the
universe! Isn't it amazing? *


*References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,** **13 and 2 Kings
20:9-11. *

Thanks, MR for that info on those sites.
I sent those sites to my friend who sent me that info on NASA.
I will let you know what the reply is (if any).

Incidentally, that NASA story being true or false really has no bearing on
the argument of whether this universe was created or not.

(Heck, it doesn't even disprove the account of Joshuas long day, or the sun dial going back in Hezekiahs time.)

Also there are two questions I asked in my post to you you did not answer!

Sincerely
Cl8

We are discussing Christian "principles", not Christianity as a belief system.
Yes if an unbeliever, non-Christian, follows biblical principles, even if they don't follow Christ, they will be honored by God for doing so....

...Explain what you mean here even in the Middle east people must work for wealth.
AND God is the God of the Middle East (actually of the whole world....

But you say that to be Christian and to be in favour of your God, you have to accept that Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins.
That is one of the things that Islam does not hold to be true and yet we have many Middle Eastern countries that have been gifted wealth by way of oil and gas and gold. What of China's current economic power?
Following this, it means you don't need Christ to be in God's favour; ergo, you don't need Christianity.
What does this say about your logic?
What does this say about your Christianity?


It says America has turned from God and obeying his commands, thereby giving their power into the hands of heathen nations.

And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.

Great arguments there.


DM, you didn't address the point that DNA and genetics (discovered by science and proven to be true) Show INTELLIGENT information and orgaization.

Once again; it is your opinion that the observed order of the universe is an indication of a design. You then take that supposition to mean that someone designed it.
That is called a circular argument.
1+1=2 doesn't prove that god exists.
Of course 1+1=2 also doesn't prove that god doesn't exist but that isn't the point of 1+1.

Incidentally, that NASA story being true or false really has no bearing on
the argument of whether this universe was created or not.
But that isn't the argument.
This universe existing isn't in question; the question is the existance of a god creator.
I refer once again to the farting invisible man.
Why is it easier to believe that someone created it and that the universe can't just be?


But like MagicRat, I too begin to tire of this chase and that "proof" you give kinda says it all. A person of rational mind would've at least pondered the reliabilty of the source but some people are just willing to accept things without checking.

But you say that to be Christian and to be in favour of your God, you have to accept that Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins.
That is one of the things that Islam does not hold to be true and yet we have many Middle Eastern countries that have been gifted wealth by way of oil and gas and gold. What of China's current economic power?
Following this, it means you don't need Christ to be in God's favour; ergo, you don't need Christianity.
What does this say about your logic?
What does this say about your Christianity?




And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.

Great arguments there.

Here is a great observation by De Tocqueville:

Muhammad (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Muhammad) brought down from heaven and put into the Koran (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Qur%27an) not religious doctrines only, but political maxims, criminal and civil laws, and scientific theories. The Gospels, on the other hand, deal only with the general relations between man and God and between man and man. Beyond that, they teach nothing and do not oblige people to believe anything. That alone, among a thousand reasons, is enough to show that Islam will not be able to hold its power long in ages of enlightenment and democracy, while Christianity is destined to reign in such ages, as in all others.And this one often attributed to De Tocqueville:

In the end, the state of the Union comes down to the character of the
people. ... I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her
commodious harbors, her ample rivers, and it was not there. I sought for
it in the fertile fields, and boundless prairies, and it was not there.
I sought it in her rich mines, and vast world commerce, and it was not
there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her
pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her
genius and power." Once again; it is your opinion that the observed order of the universe is an indication of a design.Why do you insist on denying the obvious? ANY observed order, outside of "nature" you would attribute to an intelligent human being ( Cars, houses, bikes etc.) But when it comes to biological life you outright deny it! That is illogical thinking on your part because you wish so much there was no God. You then take that supposition to mean that someone designed it.
That is called a circular argument.
1+1=2 doesn't prove that god exists.
Of course 1+1=2 also doesn't prove that god doesn't exist but that isn't the point of 1+1.


But that isn't the argument.
This universe existing isn't in question; the question is the existance of a god creator.If something is CREATED it must have a CREATOR!!!:screwy:
I refer once again to the farting invisible man.
Why is it easier to believe that someone created it and that the universe can't just be?


But like MagicRat, I too begin to tire of this chase and that "proof" you give kinda says it all. A person of rational mind would've at least pondered the reliabilty of the source but some people are just willing to accept things without checking.People of rational minds also will not deny an intelligent creator when they observe something as intellectually complex as the basic building blocks of life!

and how do those De Toqueville quotes relate to my questions?
Well, apart from say something good about Christianity whilst saying something bad about Islam.
If I were a younger person, I might just insert a smiley of some sort here.

Why do you insist on denying the obvious? ANY observed order, outside of "nature" you would attribute to an intelligent human being ( Cars, houses, bikes etc.) But when it comes to biological life you outright deny it! That is illogical thinking on your part because you wish so much there was no God.

why is it obvious?

yes, when I see a car I know a man created it.
If I so wished, I could ask who the individuals were involved in every step such is the technology today.
Show me god; if he exists why can't he be proven?
I mean, I can find the guy who designed my car and send him a message saying "thanks". Why can't I do the same to god?

And no, you have got it wrong.
It is the religious who are desperate for god to exist; those that do not believe would believe if they were shown god. I'm not so sure the same is true the other way around.

If something is CREATED it must have a CREATOR!!!:screwy:People of rational minds also will not deny an intelligent creator when they observe something as intellectually complex as the basic building blocks of life!
As pointed out before, this is word play but it does bring up certain questions.
If something is designed to be then that suggests that there is only one way to do things, especially when it comes to something as complex as life. As you should know, animal life is created when a sperm and egg "mate".
This is the designed way.
No other way should work, right?
So how that does explain non sperm cell cloning?
If a being existed that could create all of what we know how could something so apparently arbitary exist/happen?

We were created in Christ's image by God, and each of us have an intelligently, purposefully designed life to live for our short time here on Earth. Live it, love it and enjoy it knowing that it is with purpose, not accident, you are here.

Respectfully, even as trite propaganda, this statement is flawed.

We were created in Christ's image by God,

This implies that Christ came before mankind... which is untrue.

It also implies that Christ and god are two separate entities, which, the last time I looked contravenes christian theology.

Respectfully, even as trite propaganda, this statement is flawed.



This implies that Christ came before mankind... which is untrue.

It also implies that Christ and god are two separate entities, which, the last time I looked contravenes christian theology.

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.

and how do those De Toqueville quotes relate to my questions?Because your comments were mocking Nations with Christian roots, as if the Christian roots had no bearing on the success or failure of that nation. Those quotes show De Toquville (and others) can see the superior, positive benefit of Christian faith to a nation.



why is it obvious?

yes, when I see a car I know a man created it.
If I so wished, I could ask who the individuals were involved in every step such is the technology today.
Show me god; if he exists why can't he be proven?
I mean, I can find the guy who designed my car and send him a message saying "thanks". Why can't I do the same to god? :runaround: DM, take a good, thoughtful look at yourself! Can you make your own body shorter or taller, could you recreate any part of your body the way you were born with it? Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God.

And no, you have got it wrong.
It is the religious who are desperate for god to exist; those that do not believe would believe if they were shown god. I'm not so sure the same is true the other way around. ANY part of nature shows God exists. He doesn't reveal himself like any other person, because he wants us to accept him by faith.
And his holiness and human sinfulness do not mix well thats why we can't se him with our eyes. His holiness would consume us.


As pointed out before, this is word play but it does bring up certain questions.
If something is designed to be then that suggests that there is only one way to do things, especially when it comes to something as complex as life. As you should know, animal life is created when a sperm and egg "mate".
This is the designed way.
No other way should work, right?
So how that does explain non sperm cell cloning?This topic should be a thread of it's own!
according to this site:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/tech/cloning/whatiscloning/

"somatic cell nuclear transfer" is taking the nucleus from a somatic cell from another living creature and implanting it in an egg.
That living creature where the somatic cell came from, was created with a SPERM and egg! Thats why it already has two sets of Chromosomes!

( A sperm was still needed for that cloned creature.)
This method has also been shown to be inferior with many defects!

If a being existed that could create all of what we know how could something so apparently arbitary exist/happen?When biologists can make life from plain dirt from the ground, and nothing else, then you might have an argument that God is not needed to create life.

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.

+1 Akboss!

It's good to see another Theist on this forum!

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.
You need not apologize, but thank you anyways :) Respectfully, you are simply repeating the flawed religious advertising that is being hammered into your head every Sunday.

Your statement is still nonsense. This statement is just another piece of theology (aka fairy tales) that makes no sense.

Isn't god supposed to be perfect?

Then why is man so flawed? Man is susceptible to disease, genetic faults, injury, faulty memory, occasionally evil in intent and deed.... etc. Misery and death can come to people in so many different ways and often by no fault of the affected individual.

If god created man in his own image, then god is terribly flawed......

Because your comments were mocking Nations with Christian roots, as if the Christian roots had no bearing on the success or failure of that nation.

no.
I was answering this
Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles (not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

I pointed out that if what you are infering is true, then countries of other religious origins would not have power.
You then amended yourself to say that what you meant was Christian qualities.
I then pointed out that those qualities are not exclusive to Christianity.
You then said that even if you are not Christian, if you behave like a Christian, the Christian God will still show you favour.

That's when I posted this.
And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.


take a good, thoughtful look at yourself! Can you make your own body shorter or taller, could you recreate any part of your body the way you were born with it? Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God....

...When biologists can make life from plain dirt from the ground, and nothing else, then you might have an argument that God is not needed to create life.

Can your God?
According to the Bible, if it were to be taken literally, God created life from nothing and yet you, like many others have now amended that to mean that God created the stuff that life can come from. Just like the belief that the Earth was flat was amended when it was found that it wasn't and like the fact that Earth isn't at the centre of the universe.
Why is life anything but a by product of the universe; just like how the wind and the waves are a by product of gravity and pressure/temperature differences etc?

In any case, which is it?
Did your God create life from nothing or did he just create the means for life?
In any case, I still propose the same to you.
Show me how God made life from plain dirt from the ground and I'll believe in God.

once again
Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God....
this is the same as ancient man looking at the sun and calling it god.
God is created in the image of man to explain things that he, at the time, cannot explain.
Can you prove me wrong?

This method has also been shown to be inferior with many defects!
Well what do you know, natural life has also produced "inferior" life and many defects.

no.





Can your God?
According to the Bible, if it were to be taken literally, God created life from nothingWrong!
You haven't read Genesis very carefully.

Genesis 1:1 States "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" This creation was out of nothing.

But in Genesis 2:7 we read " "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground...."

This is why I made the comment about a biologist making life from dirt, because thats the way God created mankind. and yet you, like many others have now amended that to mean that God created the stuff that life can come from. Just like the belief that the Earth was flat was amended when it was found that it wasn't and like the fact that Earth isn't at the centre of the universe. Have you ever read Isaiah 40:22? "It his he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth...." Bible believers who knew this verse knew the earth was round and not flat.
Why is life anything but a by product of the universe; just like how the wind and the waves are a by product of gravity and pressure/temperature differences etc?Show me a by product like wind, waves ect. that can think, reason, feel and have relationships.

In any case, which is it?
Did your God create life from nothing or did he just create the means for life?
In any case, I still propose the same to you.
Show me how God made life from plain dirt from the ground and I'll believe in God. Ok ^ I showed you from scripture! So now you are a Theist, RIGHT???

once again

this is the same as ancient man looking at the sun and calling it god.
God is created in the image of man to explain things that he, at the time, cannot explain.
Can you prove me wrong?Your analogy is wrong because the bible believer aknowledges NO created thing is God, not even the sun, God is invisible, and a being apart from his creation.


Well what do you know, natural life has also produced "inferior" life and many defects.Not the majority of the time.

CL8, you temptress!

Your posts are such a delightful mass of illogic, irrationality and selective thinking that they just beg for my reply...... so here I am back again!!! :banghead:

First of all, arguing that man was formed from dirt, which itself was formed from nothing is perilously close to saying that man was created from nothing.
But by following your theological argument, I see that YOU have not read the bible very well. Drunken Monkey is correct.

I went down to my massive library and got my 1877 Oxford edition of the King James. That passage said "god formed man of the dust of the ground. "
Obviously, man was formed....... but it was not living.

god supposedly "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
So, the body was made from dirt, but the LIFE was created by god from nothing.

However, the fact that you are using a book of fairy tales written by man to judge the formation of man is ridiculous. It's a fable, nothing more.

No wonder that the time when everyone believed in god and Christianity ruled the known world was called.... the DARK AGES!
:)
Respectully, your posts remind me of a quote attributed to Carl Sagan:
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. :)

OK MagicRat, ( I figured you wouldn't ignore me for long!:grinyes:)

You just took the point to another level.
Without the body, there is no life on earth. The two go hand in hand.

So I could also say, " when biologists are able to create a body from dirt...."
They cannot, not in the way any human or animal body is born with.

Also, if you are not satisfied with the account of the creation of human life from dirt, take a read of Exodus 8:16-19.
That's where God told Moses to have Aaron smite the dust with his rod, then it became lice (LIFE!)
Pharaohs magicians acknowledged this was "the finger of God" doing this. ( They could not create life from dust!)

I would love for you to explain how it is logical that this universe (and life) came together by itself without a creator.
That concept has more illogic in it than the belief in a creator God does!


Sincerely CL8

P.S. If you are an Atheist, what are you doing with an 1877 KJV bible in your library? :/

P.S. If you are an Atheist, what are you doing with an 1877 KJV bible in your library? :/
Actually, I have several vintage bibles. Antiques, including books, is one of my hobbies.

I can appreciate the bible from an historic and literary sense without being deluded by it. :)

Besides, on cold winter nights, I just have to hold them in my hands and the burning sensation just warms me right up :newburn: :)

As for the creation of the universe, I may have posted this before. It has been developed over decades (and still is developing) by people much more qualified than me to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Hmm, I would love to have a collection of vintage bibles!

I found an interesting statement in your Wikipedia reference (which I have been told Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source because anybody can write anything about any topic, without it being fact checked.)

the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the Universe since that instant.Well, the author admits the big bang describes the general evolution "process", but CAN NOT explain WHY it exists!

The "why" is where theology and the concept of God come in!