The 'Inteligant Design' website
MagicRat
10-17-2009, 03:11 PM
Hmm, I would love to have a collection of vintage bibles!
I found an interesting statement in your Wikipedia reference (which I have been told Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source because anybody can write anything about any topic, without it being fact checked.)
Well, the author admits the big bang describes the general evolution "process", but CAN NOT explain WHY it exists!
The "why" is where theology and the concept of God come in!
I have referenced Wikipedia articles before about theology. Why have you never questioned their accuracy?
Oh, yes, it's because theology is subjective; it can be interpreted to mean just about anything, so accuracy is not important :)
Wikipedia is not a perfect reference, but most decent articles have references which can be checked.
Most people I have come across agree that Wikipedia is a great first-step in researching most topics. Furthermore, earlier versions of any article are also available. I have found that most sicentific articles seem to be closely monitored by responsible authors. Often, informed participants do take it upon themselves to review and discuss changes.
Now, just because there is a gap in scientific theory or proof is no justification to start throwing god-fairy-tales into the mix. Science is, by nature, demonstrable and provable, or, in the absence of proof, supportable by known principles and understanding. Theology has none of those and this is not a credible source for such understanding.
There are scientific theories for what existed before the Big Bang..... they were simply not included in scope of that article. And, no the credible ones do not include god.
Such theories state that the universe is cyclical (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model), that is the Big Bang is preceded by the Big Crunch (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch), or the Big Bounce.(click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce)
Finally, as for my bibles..... it turns out I have about 10 vintage editions, including one British version (circa 1850 or so) that's entirely in Latin.
Nice to look an but not very useful. :)
I found an interesting statement in your Wikipedia reference (which I have been told Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source because anybody can write anything about any topic, without it being fact checked.)
Well, the author admits the big bang describes the general evolution "process", but CAN NOT explain WHY it exists!
The "why" is where theology and the concept of God come in!
I have referenced Wikipedia articles before about theology. Why have you never questioned their accuracy?
Oh, yes, it's because theology is subjective; it can be interpreted to mean just about anything, so accuracy is not important :)
Wikipedia is not a perfect reference, but most decent articles have references which can be checked.
Most people I have come across agree that Wikipedia is a great first-step in researching most topics. Furthermore, earlier versions of any article are also available. I have found that most sicentific articles seem to be closely monitored by responsible authors. Often, informed participants do take it upon themselves to review and discuss changes.
Now, just because there is a gap in scientific theory or proof is no justification to start throwing god-fairy-tales into the mix. Science is, by nature, demonstrable and provable, or, in the absence of proof, supportable by known principles and understanding. Theology has none of those and this is not a credible source for such understanding.
There are scientific theories for what existed before the Big Bang..... they were simply not included in scope of that article. And, no the credible ones do not include god.
Such theories state that the universe is cyclical (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model), that is the Big Bang is preceded by the Big Crunch (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch), or the Big Bounce.(click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce)
Finally, as for my bibles..... it turns out I have about 10 vintage editions, including one British version (circa 1850 or so) that's entirely in Latin.
Nice to look an but not very useful. :)
CL8
10-18-2009, 12:21 AM
Well MR, as for he accuracy of Wikipedia you did acknowledge the same thing here:
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;
But I recently heard someone else say the same thing that's why I mentioned it.
As far as those other theories, a quote from the article on cyclical models:
. The theory describes a universe exploding into existence not just once, but repeatedly over time.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model#cite_note-Steinhardt.2C_Turok_2001a-2)It still comes into existence at some time, without explaining why.
The "Big Crunch" from the article seems to be a theory of what WILL happen, than what HAS happened.
And still Why and what what would initially cause those forces to crunch or collapse?
It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?
Your sources do not answer those questions.
Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.
On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.
And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.
Have you ever been to France to see the Eiffel Tower?
We know it is there and many people do see it.
Yet you or I will never be able to see it's creator, Gustave Eiffel.
You may be told about him, maybe see a picture of him, but the man
is not here on earth, you will not see him or meet him.
Does that mean the Eiffel Tower had no creator, because we can not see him in person?
enough said (for now)
sincerely
CL8
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;
But I recently heard someone else say the same thing that's why I mentioned it.
As far as those other theories, a quote from the article on cyclical models:
. The theory describes a universe exploding into existence not just once, but repeatedly over time.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model#cite_note-Steinhardt.2C_Turok_2001a-2)It still comes into existence at some time, without explaining why.
The "Big Crunch" from the article seems to be a theory of what WILL happen, than what HAS happened.
And still Why and what what would initially cause those forces to crunch or collapse?
It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?
Your sources do not answer those questions.
Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.
On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.
And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.
Have you ever been to France to see the Eiffel Tower?
We know it is there and many people do see it.
Yet you or I will never be able to see it's creator, Gustave Eiffel.
You may be told about him, maybe see a picture of him, but the man
is not here on earth, you will not see him or meet him.
Does that mean the Eiffel Tower had no creator, because we can not see him in person?
enough said (for now)
sincerely
CL8
MagicRat
10-18-2009, 06:08 PM
And still Why and what what would initially cause those forces to crunch or collapse?
It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?
Your sources do not answer those questions.
Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.
On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.
And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.
Uh, no it is not illogical.
Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?
Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe.
Therefore, it is entirely logical to conclude that, in the absence of evidence or credible supporting theory, there is NO creator.... not a god nor a polka-dot monster.
Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.
For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .
You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there.
Therefore, I think it is the height of arrogance and misplaced pride to claim that god did create the universe, because it is simply so huge.
The universe is 14.5 billion years old. It has billions of galaxies, each one with billions of stars and planets. All these objects span billions of light years in distance.
And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?
They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?
That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)
Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)
(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )
It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?
Your sources do not answer those questions.
Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.
On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.
And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.
Uh, no it is not illogical.
Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?
Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe.
Therefore, it is entirely logical to conclude that, in the absence of evidence or credible supporting theory, there is NO creator.... not a god nor a polka-dot monster.
Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.
For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .
You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there.
Therefore, I think it is the height of arrogance and misplaced pride to claim that god did create the universe, because it is simply so huge.
The universe is 14.5 billion years old. It has billions of galaxies, each one with billions of stars and planets. All these objects span billions of light years in distance.
And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?
They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?
That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)
Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)
(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )
CL8
10-19-2009, 03:01 AM
Uh, no it is not illogical.
Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?
Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe. :disappoin :crying:
MagicRat, MagicRat, MagicRat, You disappoint me, and make me cry for your soul.
You are evidently of high intelligence, and a very well mannered, polite person.
But you, for some reason, do not want to see and admit that the biology of life and laws of physics (subjects only the highly intelligent do well in, in school) shows a highly intelligent person was involved in making the universe.
It's not hard to see.
Isn't the truth, you just don't like the thought of a holy God, because you know your actions would offend him, so you deny his existence?
Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.
For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .
You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there. It's all a way for God to show us who he is, outside of his word.
And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?
They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?MR, first, it's not "BAPTISTS" that are the center of Gods attention.
ALL people are the center of Gods focus to save and bring into a right relationship with him.
Second, "Baptists" are well more than a few decades old!
Are you saying the Baptist denomination only got started in the 1970s'?
The Baptist college I graduated from was started in the 1930s!
If you research Baptist history on the internet, most sites agree the first official "Baptist" church started in the early 1600s, however deeper research shows there was always a line of believers, holding the same doctrine as Baptists today, which aligns with the doctrines of the New testament Churches, who were always separate from the state or Catholic church. They were not always called Baptists though.
That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)
Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)
(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )I realize it's nothing personal, but really aren't we all "ego driven"?
When I wasn't even looking for God, I experienced a miracle of healing by him. His spirit drew me to search for him and his truth.
It ended up leading me to the Baptist church, from Catholicism.
The Lord put a passion in my heart for him and his word.
This is nothing I would have done on my own.
Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?
Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe. :disappoin :crying:
MagicRat, MagicRat, MagicRat, You disappoint me, and make me cry for your soul.
You are evidently of high intelligence, and a very well mannered, polite person.
But you, for some reason, do not want to see and admit that the biology of life and laws of physics (subjects only the highly intelligent do well in, in school) shows a highly intelligent person was involved in making the universe.
It's not hard to see.
Isn't the truth, you just don't like the thought of a holy God, because you know your actions would offend him, so you deny his existence?
Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.
For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .
You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there. It's all a way for God to show us who he is, outside of his word.
And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?
They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?MR, first, it's not "BAPTISTS" that are the center of Gods attention.
ALL people are the center of Gods focus to save and bring into a right relationship with him.
Second, "Baptists" are well more than a few decades old!
Are you saying the Baptist denomination only got started in the 1970s'?
The Baptist college I graduated from was started in the 1930s!
If you research Baptist history on the internet, most sites agree the first official "Baptist" church started in the early 1600s, however deeper research shows there was always a line of believers, holding the same doctrine as Baptists today, which aligns with the doctrines of the New testament Churches, who were always separate from the state or Catholic church. They were not always called Baptists though.
That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)
Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)
(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )I realize it's nothing personal, but really aren't we all "ego driven"?
When I wasn't even looking for God, I experienced a miracle of healing by him. His spirit drew me to search for him and his truth.
It ended up leading me to the Baptist church, from Catholicism.
The Lord put a passion in my heart for him and his word.
This is nothing I would have done on my own.
MagicRat
10-20-2009, 12:55 PM
Thank you for the insight. :)
I have read that the Baptist lineage is very old and in part, distinct from the series of events that gave rise to what we know as the Protestant faiths.
Imho there is a strong distinction between religion as a source for hard and fast evidence about the universe; and religion used to enrich our personal lives. One is delusional (sorry) but the other is imo often highly beneficial.
I have read that the Baptist lineage is very old and in part, distinct from the series of events that gave rise to what we know as the Protestant faiths.
Imho there is a strong distinction between religion as a source for hard and fast evidence about the universe; and religion used to enrich our personal lives. One is delusional (sorry) but the other is imo often highly beneficial.
CL8
10-20-2009, 04:53 PM
You're welcome MagicRat.
I believe I have put the best arguments and evidence up that I can for belief in a creator.
At this point, only the spirit of God can change your heart and mind.
I know I can not.
Therefore this discussion has exhausted itself.
Sincerely,
CL8
P.S.
What happened to drunken monkey?
I believe I have put the best arguments and evidence up that I can for belief in a creator.
At this point, only the spirit of God can change your heart and mind.
I know I can not.
Therefore this discussion has exhausted itself.
Sincerely,
CL8
P.S.
What happened to drunken monkey?
drunken monkey
10-23-2009, 12:29 PM
What happened to drunken monkey?
I'm in Venice.
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I'm in Venice.
Mozilla/5.0 (SymbianOS/9.3; U; Series60/3.2 NokiaN96-1/1.20; Profile/MIDP-2.1 Configuration/CLDC-1.1;) AppleWebKit/413 (KHTML, like Gecko) Safari/413
akboss
10-23-2009, 03:45 PM
I've read a few posts here on and off, interesting stuff. I've made a few remarks but want to make a few more - not trying to make waves, just share my perspective.
I find it interesting that we always try to test our science against God, but when he created the world, do you think he really pulled out a Mayan calendar and did what would make sense to us according to our timelines? I don't think so. We try the best we can to apply our science and math to grasp the magnitude of creation, but are always skeptical (and rightly so) because our Universe is such a vast and intricate place. I don't think we will ever be able to apply science to religion without faith, and to me, that's part of what gives it credibility.
I'm not arrogant enough to say I know how the Universe was created or how we came to be, but I have faith that God is the hand that created it. Beyond that, we are all guessing. The scientific field expands with new information every day, and will continue to do so, and subsequently we will never really have a definitive answer from science. If you look back to the origin of science, it was the study of God's creation. How much our attitudes have changed. Until we 'figure it all out', which is doubtful, our methods of analyzing what happened in the past will be educated guesses at best. And personally speaking, creation makes sense to me, even with what we know about the world around us. Imagine God got the same amount of attention Darwin did in modern biology and chemistry! When 95% of the community is quoting a theory made in 1859, and only 5% are left defending a 2000-year-old truth (and they are ridiculed), it makes articles supporting evolution/unintelligent design very easy to come by.
The modern church is screwed up, no doubt. I think that is maybe the cause of so many credibility issues with the modern church. FOX news is more than happy to post a special on how pastors are caught with child pornography, or nuns are stealing money. And it's shameful. But as I presume atheists aren't proud of Hitler, nor are Christians proud of those that set a bad example. The word is truth! Part of being human is that we make mistakes, we screw up once in a while, and some more than others. And when we remove the ability for people to make mistakes, well, we are paving the way for an intolerant and unjust society.
Anyways, as a faulted and screwed up Christian I write this, to no avail other than to put my own ideas out there. But putting my life daily in the faith that God is not a crutch, nor a weapon, I humbly believe that the world we live in and all good things within it exist because of his grace. I won't tell anybody who believes otherwise that they are stupid or wrong, just that I believe differently. What a great country (countries) we live in where we can share this freely.
Cheers,
Akboss.
I find it interesting that we always try to test our science against God, but when he created the world, do you think he really pulled out a Mayan calendar and did what would make sense to us according to our timelines? I don't think so. We try the best we can to apply our science and math to grasp the magnitude of creation, but are always skeptical (and rightly so) because our Universe is such a vast and intricate place. I don't think we will ever be able to apply science to religion without faith, and to me, that's part of what gives it credibility.
I'm not arrogant enough to say I know how the Universe was created or how we came to be, but I have faith that God is the hand that created it. Beyond that, we are all guessing. The scientific field expands with new information every day, and will continue to do so, and subsequently we will never really have a definitive answer from science. If you look back to the origin of science, it was the study of God's creation. How much our attitudes have changed. Until we 'figure it all out', which is doubtful, our methods of analyzing what happened in the past will be educated guesses at best. And personally speaking, creation makes sense to me, even with what we know about the world around us. Imagine God got the same amount of attention Darwin did in modern biology and chemistry! When 95% of the community is quoting a theory made in 1859, and only 5% are left defending a 2000-year-old truth (and they are ridiculed), it makes articles supporting evolution/unintelligent design very easy to come by.
The modern church is screwed up, no doubt. I think that is maybe the cause of so many credibility issues with the modern church. FOX news is more than happy to post a special on how pastors are caught with child pornography, or nuns are stealing money. And it's shameful. But as I presume atheists aren't proud of Hitler, nor are Christians proud of those that set a bad example. The word is truth! Part of being human is that we make mistakes, we screw up once in a while, and some more than others. And when we remove the ability for people to make mistakes, well, we are paving the way for an intolerant and unjust society.
Anyways, as a faulted and screwed up Christian I write this, to no avail other than to put my own ideas out there. But putting my life daily in the faith that God is not a crutch, nor a weapon, I humbly believe that the world we live in and all good things within it exist because of his grace. I won't tell anybody who believes otherwise that they are stupid or wrong, just that I believe differently. What a great country (countries) we live in where we can share this freely.
Cheers,
Akboss.
CL8
10-24-2009, 12:19 AM
Another point Akboss is that God created time, so he does not exist in the confines of time as we do.
Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others as much as show how the Christian faith in God makes much more sense.
And Drunken monkey, are you so busy in Venice that you can't respond to posts here?:rofl:
Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others as much as show how the Christian faith in God makes much more sense.
And Drunken monkey, are you so busy in Venice that you can't respond to posts here?:rofl:
drunken monkey
10-24-2009, 09:23 AM
i) quoting doesn't work on my mobile browse
ii) typing messages on my phone is a pain
iii) i have better things to do here than talk about something that doesn't exist.
As you keep saying, this discussion isn't going anywhere. If i have failed to address anything, excuse me. I do have one other question; if you can't accept that the universe can just exist, why can you instead believe that a god can just exist?
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ii) typing messages on my phone is a pain
iii) i have better things to do here than talk about something that doesn't exist.
As you keep saying, this discussion isn't going anywhere. If i have failed to address anything, excuse me. I do have one other question; if you can't accept that the universe can just exist, why can you instead believe that a god can just exist?
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blazee
10-24-2009, 07:07 PM
But as I presume atheists aren't proud of Hitler,
Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...
Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...
MagicRat
10-24-2009, 08:21 PM
Okay, CL8, we're having a pleasant discussion here :), but I must take issue on these statements.
Another point Akboss is that God created time, so he does not exist in the confines of time as we do.
Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?
Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.
So, where did you get this idea?
Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others
Well, Christians may not need to do so, but that does not stop many from doing so.
In this thread, you yourself have pointed out the wrong beliefs of the Muslims, Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Anglicans and some Baptists.
Just trying to be helpful :)
Another point Akboss is that God created time, so he does not exist in the confines of time as we do.
Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?
Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.
So, where did you get this idea?
Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others
Well, Christians may not need to do so, but that does not stop many from doing so.
In this thread, you yourself have pointed out the wrong beliefs of the Muslims, Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Anglicans and some Baptists.
Just trying to be helpful :)
CL8
10-25-2009, 02:44 AM
Okay, CL8, we're having a pleasant discussion here :), but I must take issue on these statements.
Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?
Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.
So, where did you get this idea? From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.
Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.
Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."
Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!
From a scientific perspective,
MOST theories seem to agree time started at the big bang and is closely associated with space and motion.
here is a good definition from yahoo answers:
Time is not an illusion created by man, it is a measurement of motion between two or more moving objects existing in space. Say you had just the world and absolutely nothing else, just a stationary ball located in space. There is no time, because there is nothing to measure.
Set the ball in motion and set up a point from which to observe this motion and you have time. So time is measured by the rotation of the earth and objects in space. The unit of time, the second, is also the unit of all metric measurements including litres and kilos and grammes etc. And is derived from the motion of the earth orbitting the sun.
There is also evidence that all measurement systems use the second as the basic unit.
So the moment two or more objects in motion existed in space, time began. the end of time would be when all the stars and planets and other space debris vanished for ever. (Including the tiniest of particles)According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!
Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?
Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.
So, where did you get this idea? From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.
Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.
Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."
Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!
From a scientific perspective,
MOST theories seem to agree time started at the big bang and is closely associated with space and motion.
here is a good definition from yahoo answers:
Time is not an illusion created by man, it is a measurement of motion between two or more moving objects existing in space. Say you had just the world and absolutely nothing else, just a stationary ball located in space. There is no time, because there is nothing to measure.
Set the ball in motion and set up a point from which to observe this motion and you have time. So time is measured by the rotation of the earth and objects in space. The unit of time, the second, is also the unit of all metric measurements including litres and kilos and grammes etc. And is derived from the motion of the earth orbitting the sun.
There is also evidence that all measurement systems use the second as the basic unit.
So the moment two or more objects in motion existed in space, time began. the end of time would be when all the stars and planets and other space debris vanished for ever. (Including the tiniest of particles)According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!
MagicRat
10-25-2009, 09:26 PM
Your argument is very good and well thought out, especially considering your material (scripture) was written when understanding of abstract concepts such as time was quite primitive.
I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )
From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.
Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.
Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."
Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!
Well, scripture says god created items, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.
Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation.
According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!
I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)
I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )
From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.
Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.
Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."
Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!
Well, scripture says god created items, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.
Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation.
According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!
I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)
CL8
10-26-2009, 01:16 AM
Your argument is very good and well thought out, especially considering your material (scripture) was written when understanding of abstract concepts such as time was quite primitive.
I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )
Well, scripture says god created items Thanks!
I think you just misspelled the word "TIMES" :lol2:, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.Combine these scriptures with the scientific definition of time I posted, and you have God creating time, when he caused the celestial bodies to move.
Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation. Could it possibly be that when God created the earth, he also made it spin on it's axis, BEFORE the sun moon and stars were created, thus creating time? ( The point of measurement would be Gods throne from the third heaven.)
I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)First, I'm not so sure I "embrace" it, but accept it as a possibility (especially for the sake of argument).
Second, where do you find me dismissing a scientific theory as false?
I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )
Well, scripture says god created items Thanks!
I think you just misspelled the word "TIMES" :lol2:, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.Combine these scriptures with the scientific definition of time I posted, and you have God creating time, when he caused the celestial bodies to move.
Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation. Could it possibly be that when God created the earth, he also made it spin on it's axis, BEFORE the sun moon and stars were created, thus creating time? ( The point of measurement would be Gods throne from the third heaven.)
I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)First, I'm not so sure I "embrace" it, but accept it as a possibility (especially for the sake of argument).
Second, where do you find me dismissing a scientific theory as false?
CL8
10-26-2009, 01:21 AM
Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...
Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:
Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:
blazee
10-26-2009, 02:01 AM
Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:
I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.
Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.
It's popular among Christian apologists to claim that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust are all consequences of atheism, secularism, and liberalism. Such arguments fly in the face of reality: Adolf Hitler regularly proclaimed his faith in God, Nazi ideology was committed to supporting Christianity (on its terms, of course), and Nazi anti-Semitism was firmly grounded in Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler's theism, religiosity, and Christianity are strongly supported in his own words.
1. Adolf Hitler on God: Quotes from Adolf Hitler Expressing Belief & Faith in God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)
If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God. Hitler Quotes About God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)
2. Adolf Hitler on Faith: Quotes from Adolf Hitler on the Need for Religious Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)
If Adolf Hitler's political and social policies were a product of atheism and secularism, why did he consistently say that religious faith was necessary for morality? Why did Hitler insist that faith is one of the most important things in life? Adolf Hitler's own words make it clear that he was convinced of the importance and necessity of religious faith - not at all unlike the conviction of conservative Christians today. Hitler Quotes About Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)
3. Adolf Hitler on Tradition: Hitler Quotes on Needing Traditional Moral Values (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)
Adolf Hitler is often used as an example of what happens to a society when traditional Christian moral and social values are abandoned. In reality, one of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany. Hitler Quotes About Morality (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)
4. Adolf Hitler on Christianity: Quotes from Hitler Expressing Christian Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)
Despite how often Christian apologists try to argue that Adolf Hitler is an example of the evil caused by atheism and secularism, the truth is that Hitler often proclaimed his own Christianity, how much he valued Christianity, how important Christianity was to his life, and even how much he was personally inspired by Jesus - his "Lord and Savior." There is plenty of evidence that he was critical of Christian churches for seeking independence from the state, but his vision of "Positive Christianity" was significant to him. Hitler Quotes on Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)
5. Adolf Hitler on Religion: Quotes from Hitler on the Importance of Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)
Christian apologists try to portray Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party as being secular and anti-religious, but in reality Hitler regularly proclaimed the importance of religion in society. He opposed religious institutions that presumed to be rivals to the Nazi state for people's loyalty, but that's not the same as being opposed to religion itself. Like so many political leaders, he approved of religion - but wanted religion to know its place and not challenge him much. Hitler Quotes About Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)
6. Hitler on Secularism, Atheism: Quotes from Hitler Opposing Secularism & Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)
Claims from Christian apologists about Adolf Hitler being an example of the evils committed by secularism and atheism are effectively refuted by Hitler's own words condemning secularism and atheism. Adolf Hitler did nothing to promote or encourage Germany's godless, atheists, and freethinkers but he spoke and acted regularly to promote and defend traditional Christian beliefs, values, and political policies. Hitler Quotes About Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)
7. Christians on Hitler & Nazis: Quotes from Christians Supporting Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)
American Christians seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. If they did, they might be less likely to pretend that the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis can be traced to atheism or secularism. They might also be less likely to do so much to transform their own Christianity into an American echo of Germany's extreme nationalistic Christianity. Christian Support for Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)
8. Adolf Hitler on the Church: Quotes from Hitler on Learning from Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)
Contrary to claims made by Christian apologists seeking ways to attack atheism, Adolf Hitler was not only a Christian but he in fact made it clear that he learned from the early history of Christianity as well as more recent Christian political movements. He certainly didn't copy everything from Christian churches and organizations, but Christianity was a role model in some fundamental ways. Adolf Hitler apparently believed hat he and the Nazi Party could learn a lot from Christianity. Hitler Quotes on the Church (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:
I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.
Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.
It's popular among Christian apologists to claim that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust are all consequences of atheism, secularism, and liberalism. Such arguments fly in the face of reality: Adolf Hitler regularly proclaimed his faith in God, Nazi ideology was committed to supporting Christianity (on its terms, of course), and Nazi anti-Semitism was firmly grounded in Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler's theism, religiosity, and Christianity are strongly supported in his own words.
1. Adolf Hitler on God: Quotes from Adolf Hitler Expressing Belief & Faith in God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)
If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God. Hitler Quotes About God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)
2. Adolf Hitler on Faith: Quotes from Adolf Hitler on the Need for Religious Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)
If Adolf Hitler's political and social policies were a product of atheism and secularism, why did he consistently say that religious faith was necessary for morality? Why did Hitler insist that faith is one of the most important things in life? Adolf Hitler's own words make it clear that he was convinced of the importance and necessity of religious faith - not at all unlike the conviction of conservative Christians today. Hitler Quotes About Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)
3. Adolf Hitler on Tradition: Hitler Quotes on Needing Traditional Moral Values (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)
Adolf Hitler is often used as an example of what happens to a society when traditional Christian moral and social values are abandoned. In reality, one of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany. Hitler Quotes About Morality (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)
4. Adolf Hitler on Christianity: Quotes from Hitler Expressing Christian Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)
Despite how often Christian apologists try to argue that Adolf Hitler is an example of the evil caused by atheism and secularism, the truth is that Hitler often proclaimed his own Christianity, how much he valued Christianity, how important Christianity was to his life, and even how much he was personally inspired by Jesus - his "Lord and Savior." There is plenty of evidence that he was critical of Christian churches for seeking independence from the state, but his vision of "Positive Christianity" was significant to him. Hitler Quotes on Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)
5. Adolf Hitler on Religion: Quotes from Hitler on the Importance of Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)
Christian apologists try to portray Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party as being secular and anti-religious, but in reality Hitler regularly proclaimed the importance of religion in society. He opposed religious institutions that presumed to be rivals to the Nazi state for people's loyalty, but that's not the same as being opposed to religion itself. Like so many political leaders, he approved of religion - but wanted religion to know its place and not challenge him much. Hitler Quotes About Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)
6. Hitler on Secularism, Atheism: Quotes from Hitler Opposing Secularism & Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)
Claims from Christian apologists about Adolf Hitler being an example of the evils committed by secularism and atheism are effectively refuted by Hitler's own words condemning secularism and atheism. Adolf Hitler did nothing to promote or encourage Germany's godless, atheists, and freethinkers but he spoke and acted regularly to promote and defend traditional Christian beliefs, values, and political policies. Hitler Quotes About Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)
7. Christians on Hitler & Nazis: Quotes from Christians Supporting Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)
American Christians seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. If they did, they might be less likely to pretend that the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis can be traced to atheism or secularism. They might also be less likely to do so much to transform their own Christianity into an American echo of Germany's extreme nationalistic Christianity. Christian Support for Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)
8. Adolf Hitler on the Church: Quotes from Hitler on Learning from Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)
Contrary to claims made by Christian apologists seeking ways to attack atheism, Adolf Hitler was not only a Christian but he in fact made it clear that he learned from the early history of Christianity as well as more recent Christian political movements. He certainly didn't copy everything from Christian churches and organizations, but Christianity was a role model in some fundamental ways. Adolf Hitler apparently believed hat he and the Nazi Party could learn a lot from Christianity. Hitler Quotes on the Church (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)
CL8
10-26-2009, 03:39 AM
I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.
Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.
Blazee, tell me what the definition of a Christian is.
You have so hardened your heart to the truth of God, his word and Christianity, that you don't know what a genuine Christian is.
Show me any one of those quotes of Hitlers that "proves" he was a Christian.
You Can't because he was never a Christian ( that doesn't mean he was Atheist) but he NEVER had the love of Christ in his heart.
The biggest proof of this is that, instead of trying to convert Gods people to Christianity, through whom he chose to send the Savior, and his word, he rather kills and exterminates as many of them as he can.
No person who hates the same race of people that Jesus Christ came from, so much that they kill them, has the faith and love a real Christian has in Christ.
Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.
Blazee, tell me what the definition of a Christian is.
You have so hardened your heart to the truth of God, his word and Christianity, that you don't know what a genuine Christian is.
Show me any one of those quotes of Hitlers that "proves" he was a Christian.
You Can't because he was never a Christian ( that doesn't mean he was Atheist) but he NEVER had the love of Christ in his heart.
The biggest proof of this is that, instead of trying to convert Gods people to Christianity, through whom he chose to send the Savior, and his word, he rather kills and exterminates as many of them as he can.
No person who hates the same race of people that Jesus Christ came from, so much that they kill them, has the faith and love a real Christian has in Christ.
Blackcrow64
10-26-2009, 10:09 PM
Wow, I love the debates of this thread... I donno how I've missed it all this time... Interestingly enough, I've been doing a lot of reading and research on this subject in the last few years...
First off, I am glad MR and CL8 have discussed this matter without resorting to personal insults. All too often I see these types of threads get to the point where everyone gets mad because they "can't win the argument" and they resort to the most natural human instinct, insults... Anyways...
I have to say that I am right in the middle of the two sides. I was raised in a christian home and went to church every Sunday for most of my life... Then as I got older I began questioning all the things that had been "hammered into my mind" my whole life. You wanna see some pissed off people, try questioning the church on things that your not supposed to question. That really kills me. Curiosity is natural and we all yearn for answers to our questions. You really think God is gonna make it that easy though? If he put proof right out there that he existed then where would that put all of us and the non-believers? The world would simply exist without a purpose... I'll loop back around to this later on here...
As my questions grew and I doubted things, I left the church and was then at an age where I was free to make my own decisions and live my life however I saw fit. I went out into the world and led a very immoral lifestyle and thought it was all just grand and dandy. I'll admit it. I had pretty much given up on God with my life and did my own thing. Fortunately He never gave up on me...
I went through a lot of hard times and had to learn the hard way in life thus far. After living like that I began to question a lifestyle without moral principles and that there had to be more of a purpose in life than to just merely exist. Rather than going back to the church, I began researching things online. I found a lot of answers but for every answer there was a contradiction by somebody else. I continued searching with the same results everywhere...
What I began to realize was that we all have our beliefs and that we all are not going to believe in God... There will always be somebody trying to prove that God doesn't exist and I'm ok with that. Know why? Because there always has been and always will be opposition to God. Look at the devil for instance. He was an angel in heaven until he "opposed God." Angels know good and evil just as God does. (more on this in the next two paragraphs) We can try to teach them and preach to them about it until we're blue in the face but they will still deny it. Because that is what they believe and that's where their hearts stand... Only if they truly find it in their hearts will they believe in God.
I've slowly gotten back into the church but a different one. Now I'm in one where it's alright to ask questions and they actually attempt to answer them to the best of their knowledge of the bible. I still have a lot to learn about it and am not saying I know more than the next person by any means. I'm just stating what I believe in now. And what I believe in is God based on the experiences in my life and the way I have looked at all the "theories" out there.
At the beginning of my post I talked about purpose... I believe our purpose is to do exactly as I have been doing. Learning and growing... Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We then learned from that the difference between good and evil and we had a choice from that moment forward. We are to learn about these two things in our lives. As MR said at one point, he has good friends who are christians and those who are not and they all seem to have the same morals and standards in life. This is because of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have chosen to do good and not evil in their lives. Now we all know that sometimes we fall prey to evil and do wrong. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. (some sooner than others) But we should be learning from these experiences and applying them to our daily lives to be more "God-like." Our goal, our purpose, in this life is to be like God so that we can be closer to Him. Remember the personal relationship CL8 was talking about? He wants that relationship with us just as much as we want it with Him. We gotta have faith in Him so that our relationship will BE the closest and most personal one ever. If we didn't have faith then it would just be an eh whatever kind of relationship. Hence why there isn't physical proof out there for all to see...
I'm sure my post was pretty chaotic and not very well organized. I apologize for that. I've never actually posted in this type of discussion before. If I need to retype something to clarify then just let me know. I usually just read and watch people hash it out but decided to stand up for once and give my input. lol
First off, I am glad MR and CL8 have discussed this matter without resorting to personal insults. All too often I see these types of threads get to the point where everyone gets mad because they "can't win the argument" and they resort to the most natural human instinct, insults... Anyways...
I have to say that I am right in the middle of the two sides. I was raised in a christian home and went to church every Sunday for most of my life... Then as I got older I began questioning all the things that had been "hammered into my mind" my whole life. You wanna see some pissed off people, try questioning the church on things that your not supposed to question. That really kills me. Curiosity is natural and we all yearn for answers to our questions. You really think God is gonna make it that easy though? If he put proof right out there that he existed then where would that put all of us and the non-believers? The world would simply exist without a purpose... I'll loop back around to this later on here...
As my questions grew and I doubted things, I left the church and was then at an age where I was free to make my own decisions and live my life however I saw fit. I went out into the world and led a very immoral lifestyle and thought it was all just grand and dandy. I'll admit it. I had pretty much given up on God with my life and did my own thing. Fortunately He never gave up on me...
I went through a lot of hard times and had to learn the hard way in life thus far. After living like that I began to question a lifestyle without moral principles and that there had to be more of a purpose in life than to just merely exist. Rather than going back to the church, I began researching things online. I found a lot of answers but for every answer there was a contradiction by somebody else. I continued searching with the same results everywhere...
What I began to realize was that we all have our beliefs and that we all are not going to believe in God... There will always be somebody trying to prove that God doesn't exist and I'm ok with that. Know why? Because there always has been and always will be opposition to God. Look at the devil for instance. He was an angel in heaven until he "opposed God." Angels know good and evil just as God does. (more on this in the next two paragraphs) We can try to teach them and preach to them about it until we're blue in the face but they will still deny it. Because that is what they believe and that's where their hearts stand... Only if they truly find it in their hearts will they believe in God.
I've slowly gotten back into the church but a different one. Now I'm in one where it's alright to ask questions and they actually attempt to answer them to the best of their knowledge of the bible. I still have a lot to learn about it and am not saying I know more than the next person by any means. I'm just stating what I believe in now. And what I believe in is God based on the experiences in my life and the way I have looked at all the "theories" out there.
At the beginning of my post I talked about purpose... I believe our purpose is to do exactly as I have been doing. Learning and growing... Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We then learned from that the difference between good and evil and we had a choice from that moment forward. We are to learn about these two things in our lives. As MR said at one point, he has good friends who are christians and those who are not and they all seem to have the same morals and standards in life. This is because of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have chosen to do good and not evil in their lives. Now we all know that sometimes we fall prey to evil and do wrong. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. (some sooner than others) But we should be learning from these experiences and applying them to our daily lives to be more "God-like." Our goal, our purpose, in this life is to be like God so that we can be closer to Him. Remember the personal relationship CL8 was talking about? He wants that relationship with us just as much as we want it with Him. We gotta have faith in Him so that our relationship will BE the closest and most personal one ever. If we didn't have faith then it would just be an eh whatever kind of relationship. Hence why there isn't physical proof out there for all to see...
I'm sure my post was pretty chaotic and not very well organized. I apologize for that. I've never actually posted in this type of discussion before. If I need to retype something to clarify then just let me know. I usually just read and watch people hash it out but decided to stand up for once and give my input. lol
CL8
10-26-2009, 11:15 PM
Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.
Blackcrow64
10-26-2009, 11:30 PM
Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.
My church was part of the restoration movement. I don't really understand the difference between so many of the denominations out there now that are so similar. There are several that seem the same but with slightly different beliefs. (That or somebody gets mad about one dumb little thing and decides to change it and make their own church that is practically the same as the one they left.)
The church I'm going to now is also part of the restoration movement but I think they have a better understanding of it as a whole... I've learned so much more in the last 3 months than I did in all my years at the other church.
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.
My church was part of the restoration movement. I don't really understand the difference between so many of the denominations out there now that are so similar. There are several that seem the same but with slightly different beliefs. (That or somebody gets mad about one dumb little thing and decides to change it and make their own church that is practically the same as the one they left.)
The church I'm going to now is also part of the restoration movement but I think they have a better understanding of it as a whole... I've learned so much more in the last 3 months than I did in all my years at the other church.
CL8
10-27-2009, 03:37 AM
hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.
From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.
Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.
Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.
sincerely, in Christ,
CL8
From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.
Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.
Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.
sincerely, in Christ,
CL8
akboss
10-27-2009, 08:58 AM
Blackrow, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading your post and experience. I find similarities in my own journey, and hope to keep learning and growing.
fungologist
10-27-2009, 09:11 AM
Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!
Blackcrow64
10-27-2009, 11:51 AM
hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.
From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.
Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.
Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.
sincerely, in Christ,
CL8
They do teach that baptism is a necessary step. However, I agree with you that going to church and baptism alone does not save ones soul. They must have faith that Jesus Christ came and died for their sins and rose from the dead and conquered death. Throughout Mark, Luke, and John they teach about baptism and how John baptized Jesus and God was pleased with it. It's my understanding that it is an outward showing that you have true faith in God and have chosen to take on the Holy Spirit through the act of being baptized and live a life that is pleasing to God. Although I'm not saying being baptized automatically gives you the Holy Spirit. Instead it is something which we must discover on our own through God and that we receive it without the baptism. The baptism is just a step in showing the world that your all for God and that your gonna follow the biblical teachings to the best of your abilities. Doesn't mean your gonna be perfect from that moment forward or anything like that. It simple means that you strive to be more "God-like" than you were prior to your baptism. Like I said, I believe that baptism is not necessary if your heart is right with God and you have proclaimed that He is the Lord and Savior. It's just an outward showing that is pleasing to God. It's your way of standing up in public and proclaiming that He is the Lord of your life... Again though, this is just my understandings/interpretations of all I have read in the bible.
From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.
Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.
Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.
sincerely, in Christ,
CL8
They do teach that baptism is a necessary step. However, I agree with you that going to church and baptism alone does not save ones soul. They must have faith that Jesus Christ came and died for their sins and rose from the dead and conquered death. Throughout Mark, Luke, and John they teach about baptism and how John baptized Jesus and God was pleased with it. It's my understanding that it is an outward showing that you have true faith in God and have chosen to take on the Holy Spirit through the act of being baptized and live a life that is pleasing to God. Although I'm not saying being baptized automatically gives you the Holy Spirit. Instead it is something which we must discover on our own through God and that we receive it without the baptism. The baptism is just a step in showing the world that your all for God and that your gonna follow the biblical teachings to the best of your abilities. Doesn't mean your gonna be perfect from that moment forward or anything like that. It simple means that you strive to be more "God-like" than you were prior to your baptism. Like I said, I believe that baptism is not necessary if your heart is right with God and you have proclaimed that He is the Lord and Savior. It's just an outward showing that is pleasing to God. It's your way of standing up in public and proclaiming that He is the Lord of your life... Again though, this is just my understandings/interpretations of all I have read in the bible.
Blackcrow64
10-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!
Nothing wrong with that at all. Like I said, not everybody will believe in God and nothing will change their mind. The only one that can change that is them. God will use us to plant the seed in them but the seed will not grow if the ground in which it is planted is not accepting to it. This is why as christians, we go and teach the best we can and help spread the word of God so that these peoples "ground" will be accepting to the seed. After that, it is up to us as a christian community to help that person water and nourish the seed so that it may grow in them. But like I said, that will not change a persons beliefs if they are unaccepting to the seed which God uses us to plant in them...
Nothing wrong with that at all. Like I said, not everybody will believe in God and nothing will change their mind. The only one that can change that is them. God will use us to plant the seed in them but the seed will not grow if the ground in which it is planted is not accepting to it. This is why as christians, we go and teach the best we can and help spread the word of God so that these peoples "ground" will be accepting to the seed. After that, it is up to us as a christian community to help that person water and nourish the seed so that it may grow in them. But like I said, that will not change a persons beliefs if they are unaccepting to the seed which God uses us to plant in them...
Blackcrow64
10-27-2009, 12:14 PM
Also, just a side note to any of the Christians and non-Christians in this thread. I've created a user group for AF Christians. All are welcome to join the group if they desire to learn more about God. You can find the group in my user profile. :)
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