Is there a God??

Is there a God? A question asked by many people over time. Post your thoughts and questions.

My Questions

If God is there, why was he created? By who??
He could not have just been there.Someone of great power would have had to create god. And then why if he/she/it already has such devastating power.

If God is in everything everywhere, then he is also evil.If he is in bad people he is evil.

If god knows everything then he knows how our lives will go on. He has set our destiny. So why does god make bad people like terrorists and killers??


More to follow


Let the Discussion begin :smile:

No no no!!! Stop this at once. Seriously just go look up some old threads. This type of topic really isn't allowed here anymore.

yes it is. flaming isnt allowed.
first question i do not have an answer for.
second god is not in everything. he created everything.
i believe god does know everything about us. the reason i think we are here is to recieve a body and have the chance to grow and love god. if he created us perfect with no freewill then we will never love god on our own. i think god wanted us to love him like chidren love a father. terrorsists and killers made themselves to what they are god only created them. these are some of my thoughts moe to come. later

read the book "angels and demons"

your questions are all ones that only the person asking can answer for him/herself. it comes down to what you are willing to, and want to believe.

Ok, "God" itself is far beyond our comprehension... he is god, by definition he needs not a creator, he is the beginning of it all. He is all-knowing, all-power, he is infinite in everyway. He does not exist like we do, in finite dimentions (how ever many you believe there are).
The question of Free-will vs. Predestination is another question for another thread.
We are too simple to comprehend Good and Evil and the universe, and their role in it... perhaps those terorists are essential to the fabric of the continuum, how do we know. All we know is that this is how things are and we have to live w/ it.

P']Is there a God? A question asked by many people over time. Post your thoughts and questions.

My Questions

If God is there, why was he created? By who?? God is the creator. God doesn't have a creator. He could not have just been there.Someone of great power would have had to create god. And then why if he/she/it already has such devastating power.
Why could he not have just been there? Some people accept that the universe was just there without a creator. They believe that the universe was always there or that it just appeared out of nowhere. If God is in everything everywhere, then he is also evil.If he is in bad people he is evil.
He created people and gave them a free will. People make their own choices. They choose to be evil. If god knows everything then he knows how our lives will go on. He has set our destiny. So why does god make bad people like terrorists and killers??
Free will.

First of all, no matter how smart or wise you are, no one will ever be able to "understand" God and His ways. It's as if you were asking if an ant can try and understand us and our ways. I agree with the responses that He is not in everything bu can see everything. He created us and gave us a magnificent gift, the brain. The way one chooses to use it is upto them, and the reprocautions to those actions are dealt with in the after life by the Creator. If one follows biblical stories then they know that Damien (Lucifer, The Devil) was God's most handsome angel, God only created angels not demons and devils and such. That "angel" then become the angel of death who started evil and ever since there has been a struggle between good and evil, which will remain until the end of time. Now where it comes to preditermined death and such, that is very hard to categorise, because it's a question of faith vs faith. May sound silly butheres the faith where one believes that God determined there end day, and theres the other faith where one believes that they have possesion of their destiny.
Well thats all I have for now

yes it is. flaming isnt allowed.
first question i do not have an answer for.
second god is not in everything. he created everything.
i believe god does know everything about us. the reason i think we are here is to recieve a body and have the chance to grow and love god. if he created us perfect with no freewill then we will never love god on our own. i think god wanted us to love him like chidren love a father. terrorsists and killers made themselves to what they are god only created them. these are some of my thoughts moe to come. later
Yes,freewill is the key .

God is the creator. God doesn't have a creator.
Why could he not have just been there? Some people accept that the universe was just there without a creator. They believe that the universe was always there or that it just appeared out of nowhere.
He created people and gave them a free will. People make their own choices. They choose to be evil.
Free will.
Nothing can be just there. If there is a god, someone must have created him. If god knows everything, then he knows people's destinies. So therefore why would he have terrorists be born?

P']Nothing can be just there. If there is a god, someone must have created him. If god knows everything, then he knows people's destinies. So therefore why would he have terrorists be born?

Terrorists are made, not born, and if he knows people's destinies, that has nothing to do with preventing terrorists. The key here is free will, if you will read the previos posts.

Secondly, if you want to go with "nothing can just be there", then God must have a creator correct? Then that creator must have a creator, and so on...If you cannot accept that someone/something has just been here the whole time, then there will be a never-ending list of "creators" to ponder.

P']Nothing can be just there. If there is a god, someone must have created him. If god knows everything, then he knows people's destinies. So therefore why would he have terrorists be born?

well first if "nothing can be just there" then how the heck can i be typing this right now? b/c somehow i am here, i believe that it is because God made me, but even if he did not(but he did) still how would we be here how did the universe start b/c of what you said where did the dust or whatever evolutionists say started the universe come to be?

"So therefore why would he have terrorists be born?" agian free will, God does not want to controll us, he wont. Every see Bruce Almighty? When he was playing God, he was not able to make his chick freind love him, God wants us to love him of our free will.

You can't prove anything, I can't prove anything.. What's the use in trying?

P']Nothing can be just there. If there is a god, someone must have created him. If god knows everything, then he knows people's destinies. So therefore why would he have terrorists be born?

Some of this has already said but you asked so I will try and explain.

We think in terms of everything having a beginning and an end because that's all we know. We are physical beings and physical beings do have beginnings and endings. The same can be said for all physical things like the trees the earth and even the universe. God is a spiritual being. He isn't held to the same rules he set forth for us. He created us to be temporary. He created the universe to be temporary also. The only thing that is eternal is our spirit. I believe that's what is meant when the Bible speaks of Him creating us in his image. Believe me I know it's a bit confusing to think about how God was just always there. But is it any less confusing to think that the universe was just there? Or that the universe just created it'self ? Much like non-creationist believe that somehow the universe always was or that somehow it just came into existence I believe that God always was; even though it's a hard concept to grasp.

I believe you are right in assuming that God is all knowing and he knows ahead of time what our choices are going to be. He won't choose for us and usually he won't interfere with the choices we make. He will guide us in the right choices to make for those who believe in Him. So why would he create a person if He knows they are going to become a terrorist and kill many people? Again that's a hard concept to grasp. I believe he does it to be fair. He created that spirit and is giving it every chance not to do evil but in the end it's our free will and we make the choices ourselves.

Hopefully that helps. Sorry if it doesn't.

So why would he create a person if He knows they are going to become a terrorist and kill many people? Again that's a hard concept to grasp. I believe he does it to be fair. He created that spirit and is giving it every chance not to do evil but in the end it's our free will and we make the choices ourselves.


Without evil, there would be no good. But then again, what is considered evil, and what is considered good is relative to the person and what they believe in. I think there is a certain amount of innate morals in the human species that could be attributed to evolution, as well as religion. By the evolution attribution, I mean that we, as a species, need to know that it is bad to kill in order to survive. Theoretically, a caveman probably wouldn't have a problem killing.

One thing I don't understand is that Christianity and most other 'one-god' based relgions are fairly new in the history of man. Man made stories seem a little far fetched for me to believe in them.

"Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude."
-Leonardo Da Vinci

"Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude."
-Leonardo Da Vinci

An elitist who despised any and all who didn't believe the same as himself.

Truely a zeolot of another color.


I believe that there is a God. I hope to meet up one day. Should I be wrong, I'll never know. I am hoping I am given the chance to see the expressions on the face of a few who face God after dening Gods existence. :smile: Not that I'm suggesting that they be barred from heaven, but the expression will be quite amuzing I'm sure.

I am hoping I am given the chance to see the expressions on the face of a few who face God after dening Gods existence. :smile: Not that I'm suggesting that they be barred from heaven, but the expression will be quite amuzing I'm sure.

You seem so sure considering your lack of proof..

I can give proof to God's existence...
Ok, all of the laws of science and the universe apply, and are correct, and absolute, this is not in dispute.
Ok, so according to scientist the Universe started as an infinite singularity, and then it exploded thorwing out the infinite energy contained within, over time the engery changed into matter, and hence we have the physical universe, made up of matter and energy. Ok, so WHERE DID THE SINGULARITY COME FROM. Where'd the energy come from, what caused the explosion?
Ok, Life started when compounds known today as amino acids reacted and formed the first Protein. Not good enough for me... Life to me cannot be explained this way, even when all the chemicals needed to make the simplest single-cell organism came together, what makes it "life". What gave it the ability to reproduce, just random chemical reactions, seems a little far-fetched and unscientific to me.

I can give proof to God's existence...
Ok, all of the laws of science and the universe apply, and are correct, and absolute, this is not in dispute.
Ok, so according to scientist the Universe started as an infinite singularity, and then it exploded thorwing out the infinite energy contained within, over time the engery changed into matter, and hence we have the physical universe, made up of matter and energy. Ok, so WHERE DID THE SINGULARITY COME FROM. Where'd the energy come from, what caused the explosion?
Ok, Life started when compounds known today as amino acids reacted and formed the first Protein. Not good enough for me... Life to me cannot be explained this way, even when all the chemicals needed to make the simplest single-cell organism came together, what makes it "life". What gave it the ability to reproduce, just random chemical reactions, seems a little far-fetched and unscientific to me.

You can't give proof to God's existence...
Ok, not all of the laws of science and the universe apply, and are correct, and absolute.
Ok, according to a scientist, the Universe started as an infininte singularity, and then it expoloded throwing out the infinite energy contained within. That is one scientists theory, and of course cannot be proven.
Ok, so WHERE DID GOD COME FROM?
Ok, life started when God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Not good enough for me... Life to me cannot be explained this way, even when all the stories of the bible come together and produce some book that people have been believing in blindly for thousands of years.

Seems a little far-fetched and unscientific to me.

Yeah,I agree with Prelewd

i understand prelewd, but agree with Joseph1082.

Without evil, there would be no good.
Why? If evil completely stopped in the world would that also make good stop? Are you saying we wouldn't recognize good if it weren't for evil?

But then again, what is considered evil, and what is considered good is relative to the person and what they believe in. I think there is a certain amount of innate morals in the human species that could be attributed to evolution, as well as religion. By the evolution attribution, I mean that we, as a species, need to know that it is bad to kill in order to survive. Theoretically, a caveman probably wouldn't have a problem killing.
Agreed.

One thing I don't understand is that Christianity and most other 'one-god' based relgions are fairly new in the history of man. Man made stories seem a little far fetched for me to believe in them.
Are you sure? Christianity is fairly new but only because Christ came to the earth only fairly recently. According to the Bible "one God" based religion has been around since man was created. This also leads to the question of what you beleive in on how that came about and when it all took place?
Was it evolution? Was it a sudden creation? Was it a gradual creation?

Which man made stories are you referring too? "Many have made a trade of delusions and false miracles, deceiving the stupid multitude." -Leonardo Da Vinci
Oddly enough Leonardo Da Vincis' most famous painting was of the Last Supper.

There is no way to prove, or dissprove the existance of God.
The argument is pointless. It's based on beliefs, superstitions, and theories. There is nothing solid to test.
To say God exists is no more silly to say that God does not exist. You can't prove or disprove anything.
What's to say that everything didn't just happen without God? What's to say that God did everything? There is nothing that can be backed up with absolute fact and certainty.

To me, whether you believe in God or not is not of much importance. I believe you live only once. I do not believe in reincarnation, that is I don't believe in the concepts of heaven and hell. Your rewards and consequences are served out while your are living, once you're dead you're dead.

I do not believe that God doesn't exist.

Why? If evil completely stopped in the world would that also make good stop? Are you saying we wouldn't recognize good if it weren't for evil?

Are you sure? Christianity is fairly new but only because Christ came to the earth only fairly recently. According to the Bible "one God" based religion has been around since man was created. This also leads to the question of what you beleive in on how that came about and when it all took place?
Was it evolution? Was it a sudden creation? Was it a gradual creation?

Which man made stories are you referring too?
Oddly enough Leonardo Da Vincis' most famous painting was of the Last Supper.

I do think good would cease to be if evil did the same. They are both defined from eachother.

"According to the Bible "one God" based religion has been around since man was created." Yea.. if you believe in the bible. What does that leave everyone seeking truth or proof? The whole religion is "according to the bible". Without the bible, there would be nothing.

You are asking me what I believe in, but I think it's perfectly clear from previous posts. I am agnostic, I do not believe in anything 100%. There might be a higher being, there might not be. Nobody has proven anything to me yet.

The man made stories I am referring to are those of the bible. The mere fact that the church, while creating the new testament, left out some passages that they deemed inappropriate is enough to make me question its authority.

Oddly enough, Leonardo Da Vinci was commissioned to paint several paintings for the church, some of which contained slight hidden messages. Da Vinci didn't follow the Christian or Catholic religion.

There is no way to prove, or dissprove the existance of God.

This is what I've been saying all along.

I do think good would cease to be if evil did the same. They are both defined from eachother..

So if evil were removed from the world then good would no longer exist?

"According to the Bible "one God" based religion has been around since man was created." Yea.. if you believe in the bible. What does that leave everyone seeking truth or proof? The whole religion is "according to the bible". Without the bible, there would be nothing.
The Bible has only been around for a short time. Before that people found truth. People believed in God.

You are asking me what I believe in, but I think it's perfectly clear from previous posts. I am agnostic, I do not believe in anything 100%. There might be a higher being, there might not be. Nobody has proven anything to me yet.

I think you misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself very well. I knew you were agnostic. What I was saying is that this leads to a whole set of new questions on how you believe that man came to be. For some reason I find that subject fascinating. Maybe I'm just weird. :)



The man made stories I am referring to are those of the bible. The mere fact that the church, while creating the new testament, left out some passages that they deemed inappropriate is enough to make me question its authority.

Well I guess if everything was put into the New Testament that was available at the time it would have been extremely large and many parts would have been redundant. The priest who decided on what books to include had a hard task in front of them and did the best they could at the time.



Oddly enough, Leonardo Da Vinci was commissioned to paint several paintings for the church, some of which contained slight hidden messages. Da Vinci didn't follow the Christian or Catholic religion.


Not saying he followed any religion. Just that it's odd his most famous painting(the one he is known for) is of the last super. Something he didn't believe in. Kind of ironic and humorous.

So if evil were removed from the world then good would no longer exist?

I think you misunderstood me or I didn't explain myself very well. I knew you were agnostic. What I was saying is that this leads to a whole set of new questions on how you believe that man came to be. For some reason I find that subject fascinating. Maybe I'm just weird. :)

Well I guess if everything was put into the New Testament that was available at the time it would have been extremely large and many parts would have been redundant. The priest who decided on what books to include had a hard task in front of them and did the best they could at the time.

Not saying he followed any religion. Just that it's odd his most famous painting(the one he is known for) is of the last super. Something he didn't believe in. Kind of ironic and humorous.

Yes.

I know man came to be, but how he got there, I don't know. One of the proposed theories may be correct, but so could several others. I find the subject fascinating as well. Maybe someone will stumble upon it like Sir Isaac Newton stumbled upon gravity and people go just go.. "duh."

If things were omitted fom the New Testament, then it isn't following the original intent of the religion.

I always knew Da Vinci for the Mona Lisa before I read more about him.

Ok, but answer me then Y the "Big-bang" is pretty much handled as scientific fact, as well as the THEORY of evolution... these things are taught in school and kids are tested on them, therefore the kids are taught that THESE are correct. If anything, the "Big-Bang" is just as much a religious topic as God... and God is just as probable a scientific theory, and so these items should be treated as such.
Mono-theism first appeared on record under the reign of Pharroh Akenaton, who dispelled all the old egyptian dieties for one, only Aton, the sun disk. This was some time during the New Kingdom, I forget the date right now. The Ancient Hebrews were the ones to fully put it into use, and their Kingdom was founded around 1000B.C. under Saul. If you accept the Bible as an accurate historical text, Abraham the patriarch and his family were monotheist at circa 1800B.C., even before Akenaton. Assuming that Abraham did not invent, discover, or make-up monotheism, it had to have existed w/ following prior to him.
If there existed no evil, I believe free-will would no longer exist either, so yes it is essentially to the cosmic puzzle. The Forbidden Tree was there for a reason, to balance things out. If evil is against God, and good is Pro-God, then w/o evil there'd be no reason for existence, because God supposedly gave us the choice to be for him or against him, thus the basis of free-will. W/o the second choice, leaving only one choice, there is no free-will.

i dont know if i understand a word you just said but i think i believe you.

Ahh the old "is there a god" thread. I wouldn't know if there is one or not.

If things were omitted fom the New Testament, then it isn't following the original intent of the religion.

Plenty was omitted from the New Testament. Before it was "homogenized" there were lots of conflicting beliefs pertaining to the belief in christ. Some believed Jesus to be a God, some believed Jesus to be man, as a messenger of God, others believed the current idea that Jesus was the son of God. It is the latter belief that is represented in the Bible. The new testament stayed to one story to keep people in agreement.

Ok, but answer me then Y the "Big-bang" is pretty much handled as scientific fact, as well as the THEORY of evolution... these things are taught in school and kids are tested on them, therefore the kids are taught that THESE are correct. If anything, the "Big-Bang" is just as much a religious topic as God... and God is just as probable a scientific theory, and so these items should be treated as such.

Agreed. The big bang theory and the evolution theory are just another belief system or another form of religion.

Mono-theism first appeared on record under the reign of Pharroh Akenaton, who dispelled all the old egyptian dieties for one, only Aton, the sun disk. This was some time during the New Kingdom, I forget the date right now. The Ancient Hebrews were the ones to fully put it into use, and their Kingdom was founded around 1000B.C. under Saul. If you accept the Bible as an accurate historical text, Abraham the patriarch and his family were monotheist at circa 1800B.C., even before Akenaton. Assuming that Abraham did not invent, discover, or make-up monotheism, it had to have existed w/ following prior to him.

I'm impressed. :worshippy


If there existed no evil, I believe free-will would no longer exist either, so yes it is essentially to the cosmic puzzle. The Forbidden Tree was there for a reason, to balance things out. If evil is against God, and good is Pro-God, then w/o evil there'd be no reason for existence, because God supposedly gave us the choice to be for him or against him, thus the basis of free-will. W/o the second choice, leaving only one choice, there is no free-will

Good point. One question though. Before God created anything and there was only God did evil exist?

Yes.

I know man came to be, but how he got there, I don't know. One of the proposed theories may be correct, but so could several others. I find the subject fascinating as well. Maybe someone will stumble upon it like Sir Isaac Newton stumbled upon gravity and people go just go.. "duh."

If things were omitted fom the New Testament, then it isn't following the original intent of the religion.



The New Testament wasn't originally written as the New Testament. What I mean was the New Testament was originally just a collection of letters to churches ,writtings of Apostles and documentation of the history of Christ and his teachings by the followers of Christ. For example. Pauls letters to the churches were not intended to be part of the Bible when Paul wrote them. He wrote them simply as letters. I think he would have been suprised to find out that they are still read today and thought of as Holy documents. There is some really good stuff in those letters.
So the original intent of the religion was to follow Christ and his teachings. The Bible does a pretty good job doing that.

You seem so sure considering your lack of proof..

I am sure.

The proof I need is the existence of the universe itself and how perfectly things work together. I believe science can explain (eventually) how it all works. But, that doesn't invalidate my belief in God.

----------

I'm not asking to convert anyone and I gladly listen to arguements against Gods existence. However, using the arguements that the universe has always been here (virtually the same arguement as to where God came from) is just a belief in something that can't be proven either.

The New Testament wasn't originally written as the New Testament. What I mean was the New Testament was originally just a collection of letters to churches ,writtings of Apostles and documentation of the history of Christ and his teachings by the followers of Christ. For example. Pauls letters to the churches were not intended to be part of the Bible when Paul wrote them. He wrote them simply as letters. I think he would have been suprised to find out that they are still read today and thought of as Holy documents. There is some really good stuff in those letters.
So the original intent of the religion was to follow Christ and his teachings. The Bible does a pretty good job doing that.

I agree that the bible (and other religious text) does a good job conveying a right way to live a happy, productive, meaningful life. I do not, however, think it wise to take the bible literally. I also would be inclined to question the validity of a letter written to the church, when it's not an official document at the time.

I too, Yogs, am not asking anyone to convert. I just giving everyone my perspective. I am also interested in hearing arguments for the religion side, but haven't heard anything truly convincing yet..

I agree that the bible (and other religious text) does a good job conveying a right way to live a happy, productive, meaningful life. I do not, however, think it wise to take the bible literally. I also would be inclined to question the validity of a letter written to the church, when it's not an official document at the time.

I guess that's where we differ. I think it would be unwise not to take it literally. The Bible does a lot more than just teach us how to live happy, productive, and meaningful lives. We can do that without the Bible. The Bible reveals the spirit of God. The mind of God. The nature of God.


The validity of a letter to a church? I guess I don't understand what you are getting at. Do you mean that someone other than Paul may have written it? Also, what would an official document have been at the time?
Do you mean something with a seal on it?

See, to me God, and The Bible are topics for two different threads.

I guess that's where we differ. I think it would be unwise not to take it literally. The Bible does a lot more than just teach us how to live happy, productive, and meaningful lives. We can do that without the Bible. The Bible reveals the spirit of God. The mind of God. The nature of God.


The validity of a letter to a church? I guess I don't understand what you are getting at. Do you mean that someone other than Paul may have written it? Also, what would an official document have been at the time?
Do you mean something with a seal on it?

You need in interpret the bible literally to learn the spirit, mind and nature of god? Ok.. I guess I just don't understand

What I mean by an invalid letter is just because someone wrote something down, doesn't make it a fact. I can write some quote like "females are all decendents of donkeys" and have it included into a book. Does that make it true?

so if it aint packaged up and delivered to your door u wont believe God exists? Its the one thing in life you actually have to work for. And the most rewarding too.

so if it aint packaged up and delivered to your door u wont believe God exists? Its the one thing in life you actually have to work for. And the most rewarding too.

How do you know? I wont believe that a god exists until it makes sense that a god exists.

See... I tried to present it from a scientific point of veiw... I'm a scientist not a priest. Until you can give me a better theory as to the origins of the Universe and life, I have to say that God is a valid scientific theory. I have already said, most of the scientific community who accept Evolution and Big-Bang theories are themselves following a religion... there is no PROOF of these, so they follow by faith, faith that their ideas are correct, so Y is mine about God a religion and unscientific.
As for the bible and such, I cannot say how much if it is God's intended Bible or not, obviously it was written by men, it consists of history books, prophocy books, poetry, etc. Nor do I know if the religious institutions are truly what they are... after all, these are all institutions founded by MEN. Is the catholic church any different than a secular goverment, not really. Wasn't the Pope the highest monarch of the latter Middle Ages (yes he was). So whether you agree w religion, institutions, churches etc, that is up to you. As to God himself, he highly more likesly than any other explainations we have, period.

i dislike popes(yes this post is somewhat useless.)

ok well it is possible to prove things if the person you are trying to prove it to is rational.

the statement that god had to have been created is a rediculous satement because it is impossible for something to always have existed, and the term "always" refers to time.........god doesn't exist in time, we are the ones bound by time, and it is all we know, so we must ask the question: how did god get here? but upon further examination this question hold little to no substance........

and to believe that the universe has always been here is rediculous also, goes against the laws of nature, doesn't make any sense, please explain to me how you think this is possible.

You know I am always up for a physical debate:)... yes, that is exactly Y it is futile to apply our concepts to go.. but for our limted understand, the term "forever" which means infinite time can also express that which is outside of time, an object such could enter time at any point along the timeline, thus the definition apllied, "infinite". God does not exist in the same realm as us, we are here in 3,4 or however many dimentions you believe, he is somewhere entirely outside. God is timeless because he never changes, if everything in the universe froze, no time would pass, time equals change, so God is a Static existence, the clue to this is when he tells Moses, "Before your father's father's father was, I AM" This means that at the same moment he was talking to Moses, he was also at a point far back in History, he is at all points, omnipresent, outside of time.
As I have stated, God is just as much a scientific theory and the Big-bang is just as much a religious beleif!

Still not convinced by the so-called proof that was written by man. You might call me stubborn, but neither side can prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt.

The only way I could see that God exists is if he exists in your mind.

Another question.. how do you explain the people in the furthest regions of South America and Africa that have no contact with the outside world? Some of them do not believe in god.. God doesn't exist to them..

I'm sure they have their own beliefs as to the origins of life and the universe... and I'm sure they fit closer to the God theory than the secular ones.

You need in interpret the bible literally to learn the spirit, mind and nature of god? Ok.. I guess I just don't understand

What I mean by an invalid letter is just because someone wrote something down, doesn't make it a fact. I can write some quote like "females are all decendents of donkeys" and have it included into a book. Does that make it true?

The other guys are handeling the existance of God question very well so I won't rehash what they have already said.

I suppose the Bible can be open to a certain amount of interpretation depending on the reader and the time and place the reader is in. Maybe that's why it is refered to as the Living Word at times. Meaning it is as relevant today as it was when it was written and it changes over time even though it it the same. (don't ask me to explain what I just said :) )
Here is an example of what I mean open to a certain amount of interpretation: The earth was created in 6 days and on the 7th day God rested. Was it a literal 7 days? Some people believe it was. Was it 7 of mans days or 7 of Gods days which could be very different measurements of time. Some people believe that's what is meant. Either way it was 7 days. I take that literaly even though I believe that a certain amount of evolution took place. Those things are are insignificant and not worth argueing about. What is important is the belief that God created the earth and man. That should be taken literally. Another example would be something that happened to me a while back. I read a passage in the New Testament and I got something out of it that I never got before. I was excited about it. I talked to my then Pastor about it. He told me that he remembered one time reading that same passage not to long ago and got something totally different out of it. We both took the Bible literally but both got something different out of it. (another example of how the Bible is a living word and open to a certain amoutn of interpretation.) Thuroughly confused yet? :)

As far as invalid letter is concerned. Christians beleive that even though the Bible was written by man it was inspired by God. The books included in the Bible are God inspired. If we believe that God inspired the Bible then we believe that God directed the putting together of the Bible. Why would he allow something false to be put in his word? We believe He is all powerful so why wouldn't we believe he could make sure His word is accurate?

Well... Those of you may not be convinced by the Bibel, like I said, how can you not be convinced by Science??? Does anyone have kids? Ok, So you get busy one night, and cells from you enter your woman, unite with one of her cells, and a new life starts to grow inside her... How can yoiu explain this?????? "Oh, uh, it just happens." wrong answer. I think I said before, Science is still having trouble explaining reproduction. Cells start to multiply and form a human because they have and follow the blueprint for one, ok, if these cells have no brain so to speek, how can they follow the blueprint better than our best construction team? "oh, it's nature" Cop out, Nature is just a replacement Word for God, yet secular scientists have no trouble using it when they can explained something. And where does Consciousness come from?? It's just there? Ok, so a woman can build a biological machine in her womb, and I can build an Android (not really) in my basement? Yet my machine will never have consciousness. Figure these out!

Well... Those of you may not be convinced by the Bibel, like I said, how can you not be convinced by Science??? Does anyone have kids? Ok, So you get busy one night, and cells from you enter your woman, unite with one of her cells, and a new life starts to grow inside her... How can yoiu explain this?????? "Oh, uh, it just happens." wrong answer. I think I said before, Science is still having trouble explaining reproduction. Cells start to multiply and form a human because they have and follow the blueprint for one, ok, if these cells have no brain so to speek, how can they follow the blueprint better than our best construction team? "oh, it's nature" Cop out, Nature is just a replacement Word for God, yet secular scientists have no trouble using it when they can explained something. And where does Consciousness come from?? It's just there? Ok, so a woman can build a biological machine in her womb, and I can build an Android (not really) in my basement? Yet my machine will never have consciousness. Figure these out!

Um...I don't know where to start. Yes, there are inexplicable things in the world, but at least science tries to explain or understand them in systematic ways, rather that just attribute everything we don't yet understand to "god." That is a cop out if I have ever heard one.

I could go through step by step what happens when a baby is conceived, all of the way to the molecular level, the only thing that isn't explained is how life actually begins, or what makes objects animate, which is a question that cannot be answered by science or religion.

Consciousness is simply a result of evolution, plain and simple. We are counscious and aware because our problem solving ability and cognitive processes allowed us to better extract resources and cope with harsh environments, as well as predators, which selected for even more intelligence. It is adaptive because it allows humans to expand our ecological role, as cognitive processing gives us a much wider range of possibilities, and thus better chances to survive and reproduce. A snail doesn't have consciousness, but it is still alive. And a chimpanzee does have consciousness, not the same level we do, but it also allows them to solve problems and use tools and hunt in groups.

Summary: Science allows constant revision and testing to further our understanding of the world around us. Religion allows blind faith based on beliefs from thousands of years ago. Which makes more sense?

As far as invalid letter is concerned. Christians beleive that even though the Bible was written by man it was inspired by God. The books included in the Bible are God inspired. If we believe that God inspired the Bible then we believe that God directed the putting together of the Bible. Why would he allow something false to be put in his word? We believe He is all powerful so why wouldn't we believe he could make sure His word is accurate?

The free will that god 'gives' you..

Yes...The freewill to listen to Him and obey Him.

Um...I don't know where to start. Yes, there are inexplicable things in the world, but at least science tries to explain or understand them in systematic ways, rather that just attribute everything we don't yet understand to "god." That is a cop out if I have ever heard one.

You speak as if religious people ignore science. We use science to understand the world God made.


Consciousness is simply a result of evolution, plain and simple. We are counscious and aware because our problem solving ability and cognitive processes allowed us to better extract resources and cope with harsh environments, as well as predators, which selected for even more intelligence. It is adaptive because it allows humans to expand our ecological role, as cognitive processing gives us a much wider range of possibilities, and thus better chances to survive and reproduce. A snail doesn't have consciousness, but it is still alive. And a chimpanzee does have consciousness, not the same level we do, but it also allows them to solve problems and use tools and hunt in groups.

Are you speaking of reasoning or consciousness?


Summary: Science allows constant revision and testing to further our understanding of the world around us. Religion allows blind faith based on beliefs from thousands of years ago. Which makes more sense?

Religion does allow for blind faith but that doesn't mean we are blind to facts.

Yes...The freewill to listen to Him and obey Him.

That doesn't really sound like free will to me.. That sounds like you can do what you want, as long as you do what god wants.

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free%20will

What you described is NOT free will.

That doesn't really sound like free will to me.. That sounds like you can do what you want, as long as you do what god wants.

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=free%20will

What you described is NOT free will.

We don't have to listen or obey. We choose to.

Ok, thrasher, obviously you don't have to agree with me, but if you read a lot of my posts here on AF you will get to know me, and realize I AM a scientist true to form. Consciousness is NOT explain by science, i.e. as I already posted, waht makes us different from AI... well, we don't know, science doesn't know. Consciousness is not a result of our evolution... I think you are refering to reasoning. Nothing can expalin what makes a creature do what it does, unless you want to say we are all machines and are programmed?? is that the answer. You said it yourself, I can tell you what happens when a baby is born, except how life actually starts... there, you said exactly what I was trying to say. Science, Religion, and Philosophy are pretty much different forms of the same thing, all seek to answer the unanswerable questions, just all by different methods... A scientists says we are hear by scientific thoery, big-bang, matter, etc... religion says we are here by whatever God(s) you believe in... Philosophy says, are we even really here? Instead of being closed-minded you can realize that aspect from all three fields of thought can be applied to explain the universe.
I'm sorry I do not believe that life is a random occurence made up of electronic impulses and such.

Are you speaking of reasoning or consciousness?


There really isn't a difference. Consciousness simply means being aware of our own existence. Humans are not unique in this aspect; chimps, bonobos, and gorillas all exhibit characteristics that indicate they are aware of being in existence. Reasoning is simply applying logic to solve problems, which chimps and bonobos are also very capable of. They set traps, manipulate tools in a specific way, and have very advanced recognition and memory capabilites. Evolution has provided both them and us with these capabilites.



Instead of being closed-minded you can realize that aspect from all three fields of thought can be applied to explain the universe.
I'm sorry I do not believe that life is a random occurence made up of electronic impulses and such.

I'm not close minded to philosophy or religion, I just think that most religious beliefs are BS. I used to be a devout catholic, as well as an ex-philosophy major, and science simply explains the world the best. Like I said before, there is some "force" that drives the chaos of the universe into some semblance of order, something that makes life living, but creation stories and water turning into wine? Nope, sorry.

If counsciousness isn't a product of evolution, why does it exist, and why other primates possess it?

Your logic is flawed, ok, animals don't have reasoning, it is what seperates us from them... how can an ex-philosophy major not know this, Animals operate on Instint, Humans on Logic, that is what makes us human. Animals may be able to solve certain puzzles, like a Rat in a maze, but tere is no rational thinking behind it... the do not actually think, i.e. think about the consequences of their actions, they operate on impulse alone. Aniamls are not Sentient beings, aka Intelligent life.
What I'm referring to is the origins of life, what makes life tick. Nothing that you or science can explain. What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that. What is the soul, like I said, I don't think that ME, my essence is simply the biological programming and electric impulses of my brain, I beleive there is something more to life.

What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that.

Just because you "can't accept that" doesn't make it any less true:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/human-reproduction10.htm
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookmeiosis.html

Perhaps you are in denial that life could possibly be meaningless and simply circumstantial?

In a sense, we are all highly advanced robots, in that EVERYTHING on earth is made of the same building blocks (protons, neutrons, electrons), and if one could learn to manipulate atoms to produce what they want, one could actually create life... in theory.

Your logic is flawed, ok, animals don't have reasoning, it is what seperates us from them... how can an ex-philosophy major not know this, Animals operate on Instint, Humans on Logic, that is what makes us human. Animals may be able to solve certain puzzles, like a Rat in a maze, but tere is no rational thinking behind it... the do not actually think, i.e. think about the consequences of their actions, they operate on impulse alone. Aniamls are not Sentient beings, aka Intelligent life.
What I'm referring to is the origins of life, what makes life tick. Nothing that you or science can explain. What actually causes a cell to produce an identical copy of itself, hmmm? Biological programming, I can't accept that. What is the soul, like I said, I don't think that ME, my essence is simply the biological programming and electric impulses of my brain, I beleive there is something more to life.

Go pick up any intro to Physical Anthropology or Primatology book, and you will quickly discover that several primates are indeed capable of reasong.

All of life is "biologically programmed", including humans. We are hardwired from the day we were born, and that soul that you seem to speak of is merely your capability to reflect on things; it is just a product of our evolutionary. Humans are no different than animals, and no better. We are subject to the exact same natural forces that every other life form is.

Yea.. just to back up thrasher a little bit..

At my college we have a chimposium, with 4 different chimps. All 4 of them know sign language, but learned at different times. The one that learned first taught the others new signs that the humans didn't teach them. No rational thinking? How do you explain one chimp teaching the other chimp something that a human taught them? What motiv drives that so called 'impulse'?

I'm not going to argue conciousnes vs. reasoning. Mostly because I do believe in a certain amount of evolution. I do believe that what seperates us from animals is our capacity to learn and our soul. I am also not going to argue the existance of the soul because it's a dead end road. Either you believe or you don't.

I will go back to a question asked earlier. Where did the universe come from? I understand that science has no real proof on it's origins and all it has is guesses or "theories". Some of them are facinating but in the end they are guesses. Aren't you the least bit curious how it all began? I am.
Science is a great tool but there are certain things it will never do. Create life from nothing and explain how all things started from nothing.

As a Christain (and I wasn't always a Christain) I think science is a great thing. Science and religion are not opposed to each other. If they were then you wouldn't see so many scientist that are religious. As I said earlier; being a Christain doesn't mean we are blind to fact. Science helps me understand the universe God created. It's only a tool but sadly it's treated as a religion by many.

O.K. before we go any further, let's not confuse God with the Bible
The Bible, was written by People, the Bible itself tells us that people are imperfect, so even the Bible admits, that as being the creation of man kind it is imperfect.

The Bible, was not written by, proof read, or editted by God. The Bible may have been inspired by God, yes this is true, but that doesn't mean it's accurate in anyway. Therefor the Bible reveals no solid facts about God. It only reveals the opinions of the writers, and what they believed and thought about God. If you were willing to sit down and reflect, and then write what you concluded about God, Earth, our presence here, and our purpose, what you wrote would be no less important than what they wrote.

That's not to say that they were wrong, or that they were right. It's just to put it into perspective. Too many people read the Bible, and then leave it as the end all be all source of information about why they are here, and what they're supposed to do. Many people would probably benefit greatly, if they were to ponder and reflect, and form opinions, just like the writers of the Bible did.

To take the word of one book on such a complicated subject as existence would be silly. But that's not to say that it has nothing to offer, it is a good starting point for anybody.
So back on topic, (and remembering the difference between bound paper, and the creator of the universe) Does God exist? I've already explained my point of view. Being that there are no variables to test, you can not prove, nor disprove the existence of a God.