Is there a God??

ok you say you the people that wrote the Bible aren't accountable? well since accountable is record and description with no false information then I'd have to say they are VERY accountable... I mean since out of these 20 pages not one thing they wrote in the Bible has been proven wrong and never in history has any of it been disproven... sounds pretty accountable to me

When you answer every question posed with "if you had faith, you'd understand", it's kind of hard to prove something wrong.

Soyo (but all are welcome to address the question), in your opinion, is the Bible more or less accurate then the Qur'an and/or the Book of Mormon?

Without actually reading either of the other 2 it's hard to answer that as far as it's historical accuracy is concerned. As to the truth of it's message of salvation then I think you know what the answer is. The same answer that someone who is Muslim or Mormon would answer.

Thank you for your concern. It is meaningful for me and I understand your motivations. I enjoy debating theology and I do not interpret it as a 'clash' at all. I do not mind the attempts at conversion since they are sincere.
This may be difficult or depressing for you to grasp, but I truly believe there is no God. I know there is no god for me and there is no afterlife or salvation. So there is nothing for me, after this life. I must make the best of the life in which I find myself. I have no chance at it then I rot in a box.

I gave religious belief a whirl, and its not that it disappointed me. Not at all. I never prayed for anything in particualr, so I never felt as if any prayers were unanswered. Its just that our notion of a Judeo Christian religion is so contradictory, in nature and act, I cannot believe in anything so etherial, and so flawed, in word and deed.
For so many, the lessons of religion produces fine, morally upstanding and constructive people, in that sense it is worthwhile. But to take religion literally, well, I cannot. Its like believing in fairytales, or believing the works of JRR Tolkien are real.
So, in a sense, I believe in the products of a reasonable religion, but I have no time for the actions and beliefs that are used to coerce the masses of the people to live their lives in a moral fashion.
That being said, I would appreciate your insight on the website I posted earlier.
I am reading through this link. It's a rather lengthy article so it will take a few sessions since I have only a few minutes here and there I can sit and read. I will get through all of it shortly , then I will comment. It wouldn't be fair to comment of it without going through the entire article and links. Sorry for the delay.




Ok I finally finished the article.

He raised some good points and I had a few objections but they are only a few. He hasn't convinced me there is no God but I think you already knew he wouldn't. I can see his point of view even if I don't agree with them. It did give some insight on that line of thinking that I didn't have before. I'm not sure if you are wanting me to go into the few objections I had or if you just wanted me to try and follow the thought process you went through to arrive where you are now.
I will leave it at that until I hear from you again.

I'm saying, the amount of knowledge we have of the universe and its laws/workings is approx .000000000000001%... pretty you get the point. We do not know the fabric nor scructure of space outside of our very, VERY immediate area. Nor time for that matter.


I find it very hard to believe that since there are at least 100 billion stars in this universe alone. Then another 100 billion galaxies that have been accounted for so far that humans still think we are the only sentient beings in the universe. If you go out looking for answers you can find them. Religion seems to me as a way to build up walls and to live in a quaint little box. Ignorance is bliss, research and education is a pain in the ass. You may live a good life, but it is without trying to learn the truth about what's around us. Solely believing in one thing and one thing only whatever it may be will always leave you at a dead end. To take the concepts of whatever religion you are and going by that is a good thing, but to make a belief structure out of it warps it's meaning. You think from your religion and not of your own mind, of what you can deduct. When someone says something like "you just need faith" it makes no sense to me. You take it on faith, not actually finding out the facts, you just accept it believing without knowing.
This is quickly turning into my new favorite thread.

Well, Obviously you are a NEWB to this thread, why not read the beginning pages and all my posts. I would honestly say I know a lot more about the universe than you and am no where near closed minded. Religion is not holding me back... I will try to sum up some of the stuff I have said in the past... Ok, I am not religious. I look God at GOD as a scientific theory (I am a physics and Math major, and a scientist and philosopher at heart). To me, the universe is to structured and organized to have been a random occurrence. That is Y I believe in God.

Soyo (but all are welcome to address the question), in your opinion, is the Bible more or less accurate then the Qur'an and/or the Book of Mormon?

I don't have extensive reasearch on the Qur'an or Book of Mormon, but I do know of a few things that are different from the Bible so I think the Bible is more accurate

Without actually reading either of the other 2 it's hard to answer that as far as it's historical accuracy is concerned. As to the truth of it's message of salvation then I think you know what the answer is. The same answer that someone who is Muslim or Mormon would answer.
How can you evaluate the "truth" of the Bible, specifically the New Testament, as being more "truthful" than all else, without first fully examining all of the other sources?

If I may; did you read, study and understand the Bible before or after you accepted its message as "truth?"

I don't have extensive reasearch on the Qur'an or Book of Mormon, but I do know of a few things that are different from the Bible so I think the Bible is more accurate

So, in essense, your point is:

You have read and understand book A.
You believe book A is absolutely valid and accurate.
You have not read or attempted to understand books B or C.
You have heard from other sources that parts of A are contradictory with B or C.
Therefore, you have determined that B and C are invalid, because they do not fully concur with A.

Is this an appropriate assesment? If not, please elaborate.

I find it very hard to believe that since there are at least 100 billion stars in this universe alone. Then another 100 billion galaxies that have been accounted for so far that humans still think we are the only sentient beings in the universe. If you go out looking for answers you can find them. Religion seems to me as a way to build up walls and to live in a quaint little box. Ignorance is bliss, research and education is a pain in the ass. You may live a good life, but it is without trying to learn the truth about what's around us. Solely believing in one thing and one thing only whatever it may be will always leave you at a dead end. To take the concepts of whatever religion you are and going by that is a good thing, but to make a belief structure out of it warps it's meaning. You think from your religion and not of your own mind, of what you can deduct. When someone says something like "you just need faith" it makes no sense to me. You take it on faith, not actually finding out the facts, you just accept it believing without knowing.
This is quickly turning into my new favorite thread.

believing in God does not make you closed minded, sure some christians are, but so are a ton of people that aren't christians... how does it build up walls? a huge thing in the Bible is fellowship which is talking and having relationships with people. It deffinately doesn't mean living without trying to learn or just being ignorant... how would I know about all the historical things and all the evolutionist ideas and such if I was ignorant and didn't think for myself and learn anything? tons of research has been done, have you even read this whole thread? your asking about basic things that have been discussed already. I think from my mind all the time, how could I think "from my religion"? sure I can take what I believe into account, but thats thinking for myself, if its what I believe then its thinking for myself, not just what someone tells me... I really don't understand how you thought that part made any sense at all...

you probably personally know a very small amount of christians that don't follow their faith very well, anyone that follows it closely will prove all of what you said wrong, I don't know your situation but that just my guess... anyways I'm gonna have to disagree with all of it

How can you evaluate the "truth" of the Bible, specifically the New Testament, as being more "truthful" than all else, without first fully examining all of the other sources?

Let's see how can I explain this without getting into a lot of detail and going on and on? I will try and keep it short.

I was in my early 20's. I was looking for something more than just the partying and fighting and picking up girls that I had been use to for way too long. I had been loosely raised Christian so that seemed like as good a place as any to start. I began to read and study the Bible mostly because there was one readily available. I did read, study and for the most part understand it. I did have questions so I started attending a local Church and got involved in a Sunday School class. I questioned everything and believed nothing anyone told me until I checked it out myself. I disrupted class many times asking questions that took us off track from what we were studying. Anyway, I eventually did find what I was looking for. Not through the Church and not from some of the prepackaged answers I was fed at times from well meaning Christians. I found it on my own because I searched for it. I looked for a relationship with my Creator and got one.

When you are looking for something and find it do you need to keep searching? What would be the point?
Knowlege of other beliefs is a good thing that's why I ask questions. I am still relativly young and God willing I still have time to look into other faiths to see what they have found. I will however never abandon what I have. The knowlege I may gain from looking into other faiths hopefully will only serve to strengthen the faith I already have.

Is there a God ? Better yet , you can have a personal relationship with him. Devils believe in God and tremble. " The fool has said in his heart there is no god. No one ever woke up one day and said, I am a Christian. You must hear or read the word,believe that Jesus died for your sins and you are sorry for what you have done and repent,(change your ways) Ask Jesus in your heart. Your attitude will change! He will clean you up. It is like like a baby falling into a mud puddle. Is he able to clean himself up? No, He does the work. Once was blind, but now I see. Call 1-800 Need Him

I find it very hard to believe that since there are at least 100 billion stars in this universe alone. Then another 100 billion galaxies that have been accounted for so far that humans still think we are the only sentient beings in the universe. If you go out looking for answers you can find them. Religion seems to me as a way to build up walls and to live in a quaint little box. Ignorance is bliss, research and education is a pain in the ass. You may live a good life, but it is without trying to learn the truth about what's around us. Solely believing in one thing and one thing only whatever it may be will always leave you at a dead end. To take the concepts of whatever religion you are and going by that is a good thing, but to make a belief structure out of it warps it's meaning. You think from your religion and not of your own mind, of what you can deduct. When someone says something like "you just need faith" it makes no sense to me. You take it on faith, not actually finding out the facts, you just accept it believing without knowing.
This is quickly turning into my new favorite thread.


So, im not quite sure that i understand what you are saying, but i dont know anyplace in the Bible where it says that we are the only setient being in the universe. Also in a way saying that their are 100 billion galaxys is a thing you kinda have to take on faith. I mean youve never been their, and when you look back in history, poeple believed in very wacky thing, that were taken as fact back then. So perhaps there arent even any other galaxys? I do believe that there are, but this is just for the sake of the argument.

You are not going to understand it . until you accept by faith and believe. The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perish.The natural man does not understand the things of God. I didn't either for 30 yrs.Lived like hell. I did not write the Bible,Just who is God to you? Friend or Foe. I just believe it. Remember, He gave us the power to become sons of God. Your choice, God gave us a free will, he has no puppets. Relax, I am saying, hey no body is forcing nothing on you, it is a free gift. But, I am taking my chances on him. Every knee will bow and every name will profess, Jesus Christ as Lord, that is if your going to heaven or if you are going to hell, you will know why you are there. Very Simple, also any one who says what the bible doesn't say must have some prompting by God himself to search the scriptures. Do yourself and your family a favor and watch " In Touch" on tv or go to intouch.org. Have a wonderful life

He raised some good points and I had a few objections but they are only a few. He hasn't convinced me there is no God but I think you already knew he wouldn't. I can see his point of view even if I don't agree with them. It did give some insight on that line of thinking that I didn't have before. I'm not sure if you are wanting me to go into the few objections I had or if you just wanted me to try and follow the thought process you went through to arrive where you are now.
I will leave it at that until I hear from you again.
I would be interested to hear your objections and/ or concerns, if you feel so inclined.....not to argue or have conflict, but to have another point of view on this issue.
I thank you for taking the time to read through it, too.

So, in essense, your point is:

You have read and understand book A.
You believe book A is absolutely valid and accurate.
You have not read or attempted to understand books B or C.
You have heard from other sources that parts of A are contradictory with B or C.
Therefore, you have determined that B and C are invalid, because they do not fully concur with A.

Is this an appropriate assesment? If not, please elaborate.

well let me start by saying I fully believe everything in the Bible or "book A" so anything that contradicts that I would disagree with.

and no I have not read the other 2 books fully, I have researched them and know that there are things that contradict the Bible in them, meaning I don't agree with the whole book because of certain parts, although they have a lot of the same things in them, they do differ.

so basically since they don't concur with the Bible I don't believe they are FULLY correct, because if I believe the Bible is right, and no one can prove its wrong, why woul I believe something that didn't agree with it?

I hope that helps.

go to intouch.org there is a question and answer area. I could write until I am blue in the face. Read the book of Romans in the new testament. I can't make you belive nothing. It is a God thing. Remember eternity is smoking or non-smoking

go to intouch.org there is a question and answer area. I could write until I am blue in the face. Read the book of Romans in the new testament. I can't make you belive nothing. It is a God thing. Remember eternity is smoking or non-smoking, and every man has a religion, but will it get him or her to where they want to go ?

God is not always going to keep on prompting you. There will come a point in your life where no one will even mention anything about God,Jesus or anything about it, no one will ask you to come to church, or speak to you that they are concerned about where you go when you die. if you have reached that point, relax, he is through with you and you will forever be with your Father below.Real Simple. Read Screwtape letters by CS Lewis, you will find this interesting. The devil loves people who are uninformed. He has got you, but not me. It is appointed once to die ,then the judgement. White throne for unbelivers or Award Line for us other folks

not that I disagree with you edm guy, but you assume too much about what exactly its like after you die, the Bible doesn't exactly say how it happens, just what happens, so don't jump to conclusions

and you will convert no one by telling them your going to heaven and they are going to hell, this will only make you seem like you think higher of yourself than them, this is a common problem a lot of christians have and it gives a bad stereotype to christians in general, although the Bible tells us totally opposite, we are to put others before ourselves.... anyways thats a whole new subject... just thought I'd point that out before any problems occurred

I don't think I am better than anyone.As far as sinners, I am the worst. For some unknown reason God thought enough of me to save me just like he can you.I didn't want to hear that Jesus crap at one time either.We make pretty lousy gods. It is not my job to convert anyone that is HIS job. If you so choose not to believe.What happens to you is your choice and your choice alone. I do care where you spend eternity or I wouldn't spend my time writing this. What the majority of people are so quick to judge ones' faith when they have none of their own, like a defense mechanism.I was once the same way or worse. I feel that you are "very defensive". Most are afraid that God may be correct. I will not argue my points with you as all things should be done decently and in order. I feel that there will come a time when you will be questioned about this very exchange. Gods' message is not human information. Man did not think it up, nor can he change it. It is the way it is regardless of what you or I think or do or say. Dogmatic ? Yes, True ? Yes. I didn't write it,but I believe it. I am just one beggar trying to tell another beggar where the food is.The bible is very matter of fact as to what happens after you die, read it for yourself

I think you missunderstood me... I was in a hurry when I wrote that last post so I may have just hurried through it too fast... I am a christian and I understand what your saying... just that telling people they are going to hell makes them think you think higher of yourself, not that you acctually do, but thats what they think in defense, along with getting defensive because they feel challenged... its just that people get defensive easily and you have to be careful how you come at them and how you deliver information... I'm not saying I don't agree with you, just saying be careful how you put things or you'll end up with problems with some people... its good info, just make sure you think from the other persons point of view as your present it

I just wanted to point out it was a brilliant comment back there about the galaxies and such. I think is was Boss San who was hung hung up on no God yet he "knows for sure" that there are 100 billion galaxies in the univese... becasue he counted and cataloged them all. That in itself is a leap of faith... has anyone here ever really seen a galaxy, cause I know I have, nor have I really ever seen a star other than the sun... well, I'll use the word perceive instead of see. As if sight in itself is a reliable source of info, cause it never plays tricks on you. This goes back to pre-modern philosophy, but the only thing you can ever be certain of is your own mind. I'm not trying to be a hater, in fact, I think I am being open minded where as the non-God people seem very closed to the notion that things can/may be different from what they commonly know/have been taught.

alright.. how does God explain why we are here? why is god there (theoretically)? why anything? religion can't explain it. neither can I. until something can.. it's all flawed.

btw Joseph, I grew up in a religious family. I chose not to believe because there is no logic to it.

...
Knowlege of other beliefs is a good thing that's why I ask questions. I am still relativly young and God willing I still have time to look into other faiths to see what they have found. I will however never abandon what I have. The knowlege I may gain from looking into other faiths hopefully will only serve to strengthen the faith I already have.
Thank you for your considerate reply. BTW, I'm also interested to hear your objections to the page that MagicRat provided.
When you are looking for something and find it do you need to keep searching? What would be the point?The part that seems curious to me is that once decided to look for something, you arbitrarily (because it was the most convienent, correct?) picked Christianity as your starting point. And, Christianity apparently had just the answers you were looking for, or at least the answers that satisfied you to the point where you stopped asking questions.

Do you suppose that if you had selected a different starting point for your search (say you arbitrarily went to a Mosque or a Synagogue or a Temple instead of a Church), you would have found a similar set of answers for all of your questions? If you had selected a different starting point, you could still have been satisfied?

Thank you for your considerate reply. BTW, I'm also interested to hear your objections to the page that MagicRat provided. I will have to wait till tonight or tomorrow morning for that. I am running short on time right now. I don't want to give a short answer that won't explain very well where I am coming from.


The part that seems curious to me is that once decided to look for something, you arbitrarily (because it was the most convienent, correct?) picked Christianity as your starting point. And, Christianity apparently had just the answers you were looking for, or at least the answers that satisfied you to the point where you stopped asking questions. Do you suppose that if you had selected a different starting point for your search (say you arbitrarily went to a Mosque or a Synagogue or a Temple instead of a Church), you would have found a similar set of answers for all of your questions? If you had selected a different starting point, you could still have been satisfied?

It's hard to say what my line of thinking would be given different circumstances. I know that looking at the other faiths from where I am now I don't see how I could have been satisfied going into any of them.
The reason is Jesus. He is as I see it the only way for salvation.
I understand that others feel the same about their faith so I can only answer for what I know to be truth for me. I know what I know because I was shown and not because I was taught. I can learn from other faiths and understand why they beleive as they do but I can't beleive they are correct. To do so would be calling Jesus a liar and I has know he isn't.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Thank you for your considerate reply. BTW, I'm also interested to hear your objections to the page that MagicRat provided.
The part that seems curious to me is that once decided to look for something, you arbitrarily (because it was the most convienent, correct?) picked Christianity as your starting point. And, Christianity apparently had just the answers you were looking for, or at least the answers that satisfied you to the point where you stopped asking questions.

Do you suppose that if you had selected a different starting point for your search (say you arbitrarily went to a Mosque or a Synagogue or a Temple instead of a Church), you would have found a similar set of answers for all of your questions? If you had selected a different starting point, you could still have been satisfied?

No one on earth picks the starting point. This is not HUMAN INFORMATION, THIS IS A GOD THING. I am not getting through and some will never understand. The Holy Spirit does the choosing. God chooses who he uses and we all have the right to say yes or no.All are called, but few choose. I, like a lot of people wondered why there are so many Muslims? I was told that any Christian missionaries that showed up were killed. There is only one mediator between Man and God, The Man Christ Jesus. The way, the truth,and the life. Do I say that these people are wrong and I am right. No, I didn't, but the scriptures say that. So get mad at God and kill the messenger too. God has no puppets. They have right to believe as they please as you do. All of most religions in the world, except Christianity, you can go to the grave where their leader is buried.
Jesus is alive today. Christianity is not only a way to die , but a way to live more abundantly. Its the best thing going. There is no sadder words in the English language as " NO HOPE". As Forrest said, Thats all I have to say about that !!!! Thanks for reading my post. God does care about you, he sent his son as a sacrifice that we may live forever.

Group A says that they have all the right answers.
Group B says that they have all the right answers.
Group A says that Group B doesn't know what they're talking about.
Group B says that Group A doesn't know what they're talking about.

What conclusions can be drawn from this?

It's all yin-yang. You can't have good without bad. You can't be bad unless there is good.
Whatever is said will be argued one way or another.
When there is a good, someone will think it's bad. When there is a bad, someone will think it's good.
Nothing can be proven, nothing can be disproved.
Nobody can get along.

God is there, I don't know what you mean by why... but we are here because God made us in his image to live and be merry(basically) and to worship him because he is holy and deserves our praise. this is the type of thing that isn't totally understandable for a non-christian, or seems kind of strange maybe... so if you don't get it I understand


I just want to thank the people that have posted in this thread, because for the most part everyone has been somewhat open minded and understanding, little quarls came up but no major problems arose. its nice to see that we can discuss our points of view openly without benig thrashed for our beliefs just because someone doesn't agree

Group A says that they have all the right answers.
Group B says that they have all the right answers.
Group A says that Group B doesn't know what they're talking about.
Group B says that Group A doesn't know what they're talking about.

What conclusions can be drawn from this?

What group am I in? :eek7:

Anyway...that's the group that's right.:biggrin:

it obviously means that they both stole the answer key, and neither realizes that the other also has a copy!

i wanna be in the group that has rootbeer floats!

God is there, I don't know what you mean by why...

"Why is god there?" is what I meant. If we are here to serve god, then why is god there?

how do you figure we are meant to serve?

What group am I in? :eek7:

Anyway...that's the group that's right.:biggrin:
That's the tricky part, I guess. Could they possibly both be right? What if they're both wrong? Is there any way to really know before it's too late? They all say that they're the sure thing, but how could they all be right?

What if, whatever it is that makes you sure that Jesus is the right answer, you found that same feeling to the same degree of certainty in a whole different belief structure? Could you consider it objectively, or does whatever you believe first outweigh any subsequent ideas you might have?

how do you figure we are meant to serve?

but we are here because God made us in his image to live and be merry(basically) and to worship him because he is holy and deserves our praise.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but was using it theoretically.

The Bible says we are meant to serve God, thats how I figure we're meant to serve. I'm kind of confused what you want to know about why God is there... doesn't make sense, He's God, He's there to be God... I guess thats about all I can say about it

The Bible says we are meant to serve God, thats how I figure we're meant to serve. I'm kind of confused what you want to know about why God is there... doesn't make sense, He's God, He's there to be God... I guess thats about all I can say about it

It's just an existentialist belief that we exist for no purpose. If you keep asking why, you will eventually run into an infinite loop, or a dead end that nobody can answer.

We are here to serve god.
Why?
Because God is holy.
Why?
Because he created us.
Why?
To serve him.
Why?
and on and on..

:werd:

MagicRat.

I haven't forgotten about that page. I just keep getting sucked into another thread.
Sorry about this delay. First thing in the morning I will address it.


OK, Finally Huh?

I only have a couple of problems. Not really problems but things that may only need further elaboration.

1) a. "If God is essentially non-detectable, it must therefore be the case that he does not interact with our universe in any way. Many atheists would argue that if God does not interact with our universe at all, it is of no importance whether he exists or not. A thing which can’t even be detected in principle does not logically exist. b. Of course, it could be that God is detectable in principle, and that we merely cannot detect him in practice. However, if the Bible is to be believed, God was easily detectable by the Israelites. Surely he should still be detectable today? Why has the situation changed? c. Note that I am not demanding that God interact in a scientifically verifiable, physical way. I might potentially receive some revelation, some direct experience of God. An experience like that would be incommunicable, and not subject to scientific verification -- but it would nevertheless be as compelling as any evidence can be.But whether by direct revelation or by observation, it must surely be possible to perceive some effect caused by God's presence; otherwise, how can I distinguish him from all the other things that don't exist?


1) a. I understand his line of thinking and don't have a problem with it. If this is what he believes then it must also be true in all things. For instance; Life on other planets, string theory, all animals evolving from 1 animal/fish, the possibility of other dimensions etc...

b. I have a feeling he doesn't understand Gods interaction with man during mans timeline. There is an order. During the Old Testament God did interact with man then He sent His son Jesus(God in the flesh). Jesus interacted with man then when he left he sent the Holy Spirit(God in Spirit) to interact with man. The Bible talks about this. It talks about the progression of how things are to happen. What has changed? Time.(or the timeline).


c. In this paragraph he states that it's possible that God interacts in ways not detectable by science. He also says that he could recieve some revelation that in essence would compelling evidence. The next sentence he says it must be possible to percieve some effect caused by Gods presence in releation to that revelation. What effect is he refering to? A physical effect? Doubtful because he just stated that it's possible that God interacts in ways not detectable by science. So what's left? Non physical effects. Does he mean emotional effects? If so then that is in abundance even if he hasn't experienced it. Possibly I just need clarification on his meaning.


This is tied to 1) c.

"The evidence must be objective, though; anecdotal evidence (http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#anecdotal) of other people's religious experiences isn't good enough. And strong, compelling evidence is required, because the existence of God is an extraordinary claim -- and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

What type of evidence is he refering to? He seems to have in one sentence ruled in things that are non physical and now he has ruled out things that are non physical. Does he mean a vision that everyone in the world sees at once? Possibly some huge miracle that everyone saw at the same time?
If so then there would be no need for free will. Everyone would beleive. If they didn't then they would be fools. There is no free will to choose or not to choose God if he had to constantly show up and perform a miracle for everyone to keep them believing.


2) Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.



2) Wasting our money on Church buildings? So we are wasting our money on contractors to build them? This is financial burden to whom? The contractors being paid to build the building? No, it's a financial burden to the members and no one else. It is none of his or anyone elses buisness what I or any other Church member does with their money. Just as it is no buisness of mine what he spends his money on. Is it a financial burden to society if he builds a garage? After all just imagine how all that money time and effort could been better spent.
When he finishes his garage will he help feed the needy with it? Will he help clothe people with it?

What about all the time wasted praying. Just imagine how all that time could better be spent benifiting society. In the same light just think about the time wasted by him to sitting at his computer trying to come up with his web page. Just think how that time could have better been spent benifiting society. The fact is that our time belongs to us. We do not dictate to him how to spend it. We don't look down on him because he probably wastes huge amounts of time doing nothing more than watching TV or surfing the web. It's his time to do whatever he pleases. Why does he look down on us for doing what we please with our time?

I guess that's all I have.

Like I said..maybe I just need to get a little better explination on some of these points.

It's just an existentialist belief that we exist for no purpose. If you keep asking why, you will eventually run into an infinite loop, or a dead end that nobody can answer.

We are here to serve god.
Why?
Because God is holy.
Why?
Because he created us.
Why?
To serve him.
Why?
and on and on..

so why waste everyone time by asking? :)

2) Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.



2) Wasting our money on Church buildings? So we are wasting our money on contractors to build them? This is financial burden to whom? The contractors being paid to build the building? No, it's a financial burden to the members and no one else. It is none of his or anyone elses buisness what I or any other Church member does with their money. Just as it is no buisness of mine what he spends his money on. Is it a financial burden to society if he builds a garage? After all just imagine how all that money time and effort could been better spent.
When he finishes his garage will he help feed the needy with it? Will he help clothe people with it?

What about all the time wasted praying. Just imagine how all that time could better be spent benifiting society. In the same light just think about the time wasted by him to sitting at his computer trying to come up with his web page. Just think how that time could have better been spent benifiting society. The fact is that our time belongs to us. We do not dictate to him how to spend it. We don't look down on him because he probably wastes huge amounts of time doing nothing more than watching TV or surfing the web. It's his time to do whatever he pleases. Why does he look down on us for doing what we please with our time?

I guess that's all I have.

Like I said..maybe I just need to get a little better explination on some of these points.


its only a waste of money and waste of time to non-believers, because as a believer I choose to give up my time and money, because I find it a small sacrifice to pay for what Jesus did for me and for eternal life.

it's kind of like the saying "One mans trash is another mans treasure"

like if you throw out an old couch or chair cuz you got a better one and the old one is torn a little and worn out, someone that doesn't have a couch would be 110% satisfied to have it...

wasted time/trash is all a matter of opinion

2) Religion represents a huge financial and work burden on mankind. It's not just a matter of religious believers wasting their money on church buildings; think of all the time and effort spent building churches, praying, and so on. Imagine how that effort could be better spent.



2) Wasting our money on Church buildings? So we are wasting our money on contractors to build them? This is financial burden to whom? The contractors being paid to build the building? No, it's a financial burden to the members and no one else. It is none of his or anyone elses buisness what I or any other Church member does with their money. Just as it is no buisness of mine what he spends his money on. Is it a financial burden to society if he builds a garage? After all just imagine how all that money time and effort could been better spent.
When he finishes his garage will he help feed the needy with it? Will he help clothe people with it?

What about all the time wasted praying. Just imagine how all that time could better be spent benifiting society. In the same light just think about the time wasted by him to sitting at his computer trying to come up with his web page. Just think how that time could have better been spent benifiting society. The fact is that our time belongs to us. We do not dictate to him how to spend it. We don't look down on him because he probably wastes huge amounts of time doing nothing more than watching TV or surfing the web. It's his time to do whatever he pleases. Why does he look down on us for doing what we please with our time?

I guess that's all I have.

Like I said..maybe I just need to get a little better explination on some of these points.

I know what you are saying, and understand and agree for an American (or similar) standpoint. But look at everyone in poverty in the middle east. They limit themselves so much to their religious ideals when they really need to concentrate on their quality of life. Maybe they are happy with it this way, and I suppose their religion inspires some sort of hope, but they can't wait for God to change things. It's not really my place to say, though.

For the most part, DGB, I agree with everything you said that I quoted.

Prelewd.
I'm not following the connection between religion and poverty in the middle east. I'm not disagreeing I'm just not seeing it. Please explain.

Here are some sundry stock items that turn up in any discussion about the existence of God eventually:

God is purely simple. Anything made up of parts can be taken apart (as all techs know). God cannot be taken apart, and is utterly simple in His substance. But God is loving, and whatever He does, He does infinitely. So God must not only love, but "be love." If God did not love and was not love, He would lack something and be limited, and therefore not be God. Yet love is necessarily relational: it is absurd for someone to say that they actively love in absolute isolation (loving no one). So there must be a relationship within God, so that God may love selflessly, and love another. This is why Christians are so comfortable believing in a Trinity: God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who love each other infinitely and eternally. The love of each is directed towards the others. We are made out of this Trinitarian love, and we are made to love and be loved.

Creatures are finite. We didn't use to exist, and we will die in the future (laying aside the immortality of the soul for a moment). We are "contingent beings" in that we don't have to exist but we do. God, by definition, is the only "necessary being" in that He must exist. It is (philosophically speaking) only by way of hypothesis that we can say "If God did not exist..." because the notion of God includes His being infinite, and anything which could possibly not exist is not truly infinite.

For every similarity between God and creatures, there is even greater dissimilarity between them. We are something like God, but God is nothing like us. Infinity is "ever-greater" than we can think or imagine.

Sorry I can't participate regularly... Peace to all. Parmenides3

but there, you arise a problem. for god to be infinite, God must incompas EVERYTHING. For people to say "god is love" is for people to limit god.

god must, in order to be infinite, encompass the very things that god seeks to lead us away from. God must encompass evil, or evil would never had existed.

hallucinogens anyone????

Prelewd.
I'm not following the connection between religion and poverty in the middle east. I'm not disagreeing I'm just not seeing it. Please explain.

This may be oversimplified, but they are fighting over a piece of land that poses almost zero economic use, except for that it was the supposed birthplace of jesus christ. Their central government is indirectly controlled by religious leaders and political agendas often get mixed in with their gospel. Fighting over which religion is right has destroyed any semblence of order.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not a political scientist by any means. This is just my take on what's happening.

Evil does not exist in itself. Evil is a privation, a lack of something which ought to be present. A cut on one's finger (to use a stock example) is a lack of the wholeness we call health. Evil "exists" only as a parasite on goodness.

As for God and infinity: infinity does not have to be completely without identity. Being what one is is not necessarily a limitation. To say that God is not a coffee mug is not to limit God. It does, however, mean that God is completely free of the limitations of being a mug.

Please pardon my imprecise language. I'm awfully tired. Too bad it's too late for coffee...

Evil does not exist in itself. Evil is a privation, a lack of something which ought to be present. A cut on one's finger (to use a stock example) is a lack of the wholeness we call health. Evil "exists" only as a parasite on goodness.


That's one theory.

This may be oversimplified, but they are fighting over a piece of land that poses almost zero economic use, except for that it was the supposed birthplace of jesus christ. Their central government is indirectly controlled by religious leaders and political agendas often get mixed in with their gospel. Fighting over which religion is right has destroyed any semblence of order.

Correct me if I'm wrong, as I am not a political scientist by any means. This is just my take on what's happening.

well I will correct you if I may, if your talking about Israel. so anyways, Israel is said to be the land promised to the Jews from God, they only fight for a certain area of land, they aren't trying to take anything over, basically defending themselves from border countries.

now if your talking about us fighting with muslim extremists then that has nothing to do with Jesus or his birthplace

hopefully one of those answers you cuz you weren't very exact in what you said

well I will correct you if I may, if your talking about Israel. so anyways, Israel is said to be the land promised to the Jews from God, they only fight for a certain area of land, they aren't trying to take anything over, basically defending themselves from border countries.

now if your talking about us fighting with muslim extremists then that has nothing to do with Jesus or his birthplace

hopefully one of those answers you cuz you weren't very exact in what you said

by all means, correct me.

I was speaking of the Palestinians and Israelis fighting over that "certain area of land". That land is basically useless for agriculture and industry, and yet they fight so hard for it, and for what? Their different religious beliefs?

Where would they call home if not Israel?

maybe somewhere where they didnt have to displace an entire other people who were there quite a bit longer than them :D im fairly sure if they had just peacefully moved into palestine with permission from the government, and not tried to take over, we wouldnt have half the hatred we have today.

actually prelewd, that land has alot of economic use. tourism. it is the holy land after all.

*sigh* its pathetic what the media tells people really, and its even more pathetic that they believe it...

at first, i wasnt going to justify your post with a reply, but then i decided: please enlighten me, oh avatar of truth. show me the true way so that i might understand. :rolleyes:

maybe somewhere where they didnt have to displace an entire other people who were there quite a bit longer than them :D im fairly sure if they had just peacefully moved into palestine with permission from the government, and not tried to take over, we wouldnt have half the hatred we have today.



Longer sure but who really has rights to it? Back in the day :biggrin: ......If you took over land you kept it. Besides, God gave it to them. I'm not going to argue with God.

and god supposedly gave it to the palestinians too. Even if god exists, im not sure god would choose sides in such a conflict

How about they both just live there together? Theoretically, god gave us all the earth. It seems rather superficial that they'd fight over a piece of land where someone was supposedly born.

What are they going to do once one of them has it anyway?

Hmmm, ok, a couple of points... ok, if anyone did not notice, the ancient kingdom of Israel was located in what we today call Palestine... in fact, King David captured the city of Jerusalem and made it his capital circa 1000 B.C. So if you look at it this way the Jews pretty much have the best claim to the land, don't they... they were there long before there was Arab civilization. Now, the Muslims fight for two reason, one, they were there, and two, it is the holiest place to them outside of Arabia, Jerusalem is supposedly where Mohammed ascended to heaven. Well, aside from religious topics, the muslims want the land because they are there... but how did they get there, well, through CONQUEST. This is a very rhetorical argument, because if you think that the Arabs/Muslims own the land legitimately then so do the Jews now because the basically "conquered" the land, through immigration, the UN, the West, etc. And even cemented their claim thorugh warfare.
One last thing, whatever race you may be... if your people were displaced from their homeland back in the day, you know sure as hell they would want to return to it, regardless of who is there now. You are telling me that the Irish would not want to return to Ireland? And don't also forget that MIGHT does make RIGHT... you disagree, well, last time I checked your house was on land that historically belong to Native Americans, but oh well that doesn't count.

just a couple of points...being Irish in decent, im gonna have to say im quite happy were i am now.

and as for my house being on land once owned by native americans, well, your wrong. the Native Americans didnt claim ownership over the land. it was everyones to share. though i do think our nation owes the native american decendants a great more than we are giving for displacing them. (whose the illegal immigrant, eh pilgrim)