Is there a God??
Joseph1082
05-04-2004, 03:01 AM
I've hardly ever brought up the bible in my argument... I've been preaching more of my version of God-based physics. But I will delve into this...
Genesis says that God created all the creatures, this would included anything extinct... there are no tables of animals listed, but why would that be an issue, they once were here, no they are not, God still had to have made them, perhaps the Noah flood kill them... but actually in Job it refers to the Behemoth, which many figure is an elephant, but a "behemoth" has a tail like a tree trunk, this is distinctly not pachyderm.
Genesis says that God created all the creatures, this would included anything extinct... there are no tables of animals listed, but why would that be an issue, they once were here, no they are not, God still had to have made them, perhaps the Noah flood kill them... but actually in Job it refers to the Behemoth, which many figure is an elephant, but a "behemoth" has a tail like a tree trunk, this is distinctly not pachyderm.
DGB454
05-04-2004, 04:57 AM
some of the cross species have survived, im sure...look at the platypus. definitly looks like a weird animal to me. what about amphibians, seems like the perfect evolutionay device.
still, it could be a completely random universe. you mention math, we'll a theory endorse by stephen hawking is that the universe has existed forever and is constantly in a state of expansion (big bangs) and collapse and its only a matter of enough bangs and collapses that we eventually reach the world we have today. mathematical probability. surely we can accept a universe that expands and collapses an infinite number times if we can accept an infinite being.
id like to add a relevant quote. "something human beings have always believed in is that the universe adds up. God, for all intents and purposes is an equal sign"
Theories. Guesses. I can see his point about the universe expanding and contracting an infinite amount of times. At the same time we are talking about a physical universe. Where else does this occur in the physical world that science has observed?and DBG, an artist or a musician creates to appreciate, to fill a void, to express emotion, or to feel the power of creation. and for some, a living is certainly a nice addition to that. but any of those reasons in god would express a lacking on god's part (not to mention comparing the infinite, all powerful creator to humans kinda diminishes his holy-ness doesnt it) even then, he created the seraphin (higher angels...that word right?) first, why us?Artist create because they love to.
Comparing the infinite to the finite is all we have. What else could I compare Him to? What else is infinite?
Why us? Why a perfect working living organism? Why not us? Why angels(seraphim and cherubim) ? Why not a perfect spiritual being?
You see his creations as shortcomings but I see them as a testament to his greatness. Different points of view from different vantage points.
still, it could be a completely random universe. you mention math, we'll a theory endorse by stephen hawking is that the universe has existed forever and is constantly in a state of expansion (big bangs) and collapse and its only a matter of enough bangs and collapses that we eventually reach the world we have today. mathematical probability. surely we can accept a universe that expands and collapses an infinite number times if we can accept an infinite being.
id like to add a relevant quote. "something human beings have always believed in is that the universe adds up. God, for all intents and purposes is an equal sign"
Theories. Guesses. I can see his point about the universe expanding and contracting an infinite amount of times. At the same time we are talking about a physical universe. Where else does this occur in the physical world that science has observed?and DBG, an artist or a musician creates to appreciate, to fill a void, to express emotion, or to feel the power of creation. and for some, a living is certainly a nice addition to that. but any of those reasons in god would express a lacking on god's part (not to mention comparing the infinite, all powerful creator to humans kinda diminishes his holy-ness doesnt it) even then, he created the seraphin (higher angels...that word right?) first, why us?Artist create because they love to.
Comparing the infinite to the finite is all we have. What else could I compare Him to? What else is infinite?
Why us? Why a perfect working living organism? Why not us? Why angels(seraphim and cherubim) ? Why not a perfect spiritual being?
You see his creations as shortcomings but I see them as a testament to his greatness. Different points of view from different vantage points.
DGB454
05-04-2004, 05:06 AM
This whole thread is based on whether or not there is a God. Let's break this down a bit. This god is the judeo/christian based creator of the universe. What makes you think you're the only (or the only real) religion? You are ignorant and can't think for yourselves. There are hundreds of religions in the current world. There have been thousands in the past. What makes you so damn sure you're right.
The only thing that makes Christianity different than any other religon is Christ. Christ is Gods physical contact with man. Basically He came, He lived, He conquered. He offers something that all men reguardless of who they are a way for eternal salvation. No works can get you there. Just accepting him can.
Ignorant? If that's how you see us then that's ok. Your opinion of me should mean what to me?:sly:
The only thing that makes Christianity different than any other religon is Christ. Christ is Gods physical contact with man. Basically He came, He lived, He conquered. He offers something that all men reguardless of who they are a way for eternal salvation. No works can get you there. Just accepting him can.
Ignorant? If that's how you see us then that's ok. Your opinion of me should mean what to me?:sly:
DGB454
05-04-2004, 05:11 AM
how does the bible explain dinosaurs?
The Bible doesn't explain the Zebra the Do Do or the Aardvark. They weren't relavant. The Bible isn't an encyclopedia.
The Bible doesn't explain the Zebra the Do Do or the Aardvark. They weren't relavant. The Bible isn't an encyclopedia.
Prelewd
05-04-2004, 01:29 PM
The Bible doesn't explain the Zebra the Do Do or the Aardvark. They weren't relavant. The Bible isn't an encyclopedia.
It's a little different considering the zebra, dodo and ardvark are still alive. You'd think the word of god would include soemthing about the life that existed before humans.
It's a little different considering the zebra, dodo and ardvark are still alive. You'd think the word of god would include soemthing about the life that existed before humans.
state69champ
05-04-2004, 01:36 PM
God is not every where... or in everytihng he is only in the people that have accepted him into there heart... bad people have not done this or else they would not be bad.
thrasher
05-04-2004, 02:53 PM
Lucy was disproved long ago so that is a null arguement.
and the finches have nothing to do with evolution... like I said, a change within a species is adaptation, a change from one species to another is evolution... the finches were still finches, they just grew bigger wings or beaks or whatever... that is a fact, but its not evolution. so that has nothing to do with it.
and NO adaptation is not the same as evolution... I don't care what you say because I know your wrong, I've done coutnless research and I know the difference between adaptation and evolution
When and how was Lucy "disproved?"
You do not quite understand the intricacies of evolutionary theory if you still think that adaptation is a change within species and evolution is change between species. Evolution is, as I said before, a change in allele frequencies in a population over generations. If you knew as much as you claim to about evolution, you would know this. Now when a population adapts to environmental pressures becuase of accumulated mutations, the allele frequency in the population has changed, which is the exact definition of evolution. Thus, an adaptation is evolution. You haven't done countless research, so quit coming in here and spitting out BS about that which you do not know.
Nothing has been disproven by the fossil record, in fact, anthropology has shown conclusively that there ARE intermediate forms between anatomically modern humans and apes, and there are thousands of fossils proving this. It seems to me that you have probably read articles that seek to disprove evolutionary theory, yet the people who do that research, as well as you, haven't taken a really deep look at the evidence.
Here is the biggest question I have that cannot be answered by creationists or anti-evolutionists: If the earth is only 10,000 years old, and we have millions of fossils, where did all of the creatures that the fossils came from go? If, in the course of 10,000 years, millions of species went extinct, what were they replaced by? How were their ecological roles filled? Why haven't the ecosystems that they helped to support broken down yet? If all of those species and modern day species were present at the same time, how did they partition resources with such high denisities? How does an ecosystem fucntion that has far more grass eaters than the earth can support? Please, give me a reasonable answer without using evolutionary theory. Becuase I can answer all of those questions in 2 seconds flat using evolutionary and ecological explanations.
and the finches have nothing to do with evolution... like I said, a change within a species is adaptation, a change from one species to another is evolution... the finches were still finches, they just grew bigger wings or beaks or whatever... that is a fact, but its not evolution. so that has nothing to do with it.
and NO adaptation is not the same as evolution... I don't care what you say because I know your wrong, I've done coutnless research and I know the difference between adaptation and evolution
When and how was Lucy "disproved?"
You do not quite understand the intricacies of evolutionary theory if you still think that adaptation is a change within species and evolution is change between species. Evolution is, as I said before, a change in allele frequencies in a population over generations. If you knew as much as you claim to about evolution, you would know this. Now when a population adapts to environmental pressures becuase of accumulated mutations, the allele frequency in the population has changed, which is the exact definition of evolution. Thus, an adaptation is evolution. You haven't done countless research, so quit coming in here and spitting out BS about that which you do not know.
Nothing has been disproven by the fossil record, in fact, anthropology has shown conclusively that there ARE intermediate forms between anatomically modern humans and apes, and there are thousands of fossils proving this. It seems to me that you have probably read articles that seek to disprove evolutionary theory, yet the people who do that research, as well as you, haven't taken a really deep look at the evidence.
Here is the biggest question I have that cannot be answered by creationists or anti-evolutionists: If the earth is only 10,000 years old, and we have millions of fossils, where did all of the creatures that the fossils came from go? If, in the course of 10,000 years, millions of species went extinct, what were they replaced by? How were their ecological roles filled? Why haven't the ecosystems that they helped to support broken down yet? If all of those species and modern day species were present at the same time, how did they partition resources with such high denisities? How does an ecosystem fucntion that has far more grass eaters than the earth can support? Please, give me a reasonable answer without using evolutionary theory. Becuase I can answer all of those questions in 2 seconds flat using evolutionary and ecological explanations.
Soyo
05-04-2004, 03:07 PM
how does the bible explain dinosaurs?
dinosaurs were made at the same time as all the other animals, they just went extinct... and honestly a lot of the dinosaurs they say there were or find "fossils" of are made up with a few bones and were probably never there(not all, just some, and some are exagerated)... kind of like the nebraska man back in the day, they said it was the missing link between men and apes... they based the whole structure off a tooth, just 1 tooth... they later found out it was from an extinct hog of some kind... thats why I don't just trust what someone says about science, I look it up for myself and do my own research
I don't know if you were acctually wanting a deep answer on this or what... if you want more info into dinosaurs I can get it for you
dinosaurs were made at the same time as all the other animals, they just went extinct... and honestly a lot of the dinosaurs they say there were or find "fossils" of are made up with a few bones and were probably never there(not all, just some, and some are exagerated)... kind of like the nebraska man back in the day, they said it was the missing link between men and apes... they based the whole structure off a tooth, just 1 tooth... they later found out it was from an extinct hog of some kind... thats why I don't just trust what someone says about science, I look it up for myself and do my own research
I don't know if you were acctually wanting a deep answer on this or what... if you want more info into dinosaurs I can get it for you
Soyo
05-04-2004, 03:16 PM
Here is the biggest question I have that cannot be answered by creationists or anti-evolutionists: If the earth is only 10,000 years old, and we have millions of fossils, where did all of the creatures that the fossils came from go? If, in the course of 10,000 years, millions of species went extinct, what were they replaced by? How were their ecological roles filled? Why haven't the ecosystems that they helped to support broken down yet? If all of those species and modern day species were present at the same time, how did they partition resources with such high denisities? How does an ecosystem fucntion that has far more grass eaters than the earth can support? Please, give me a reasonable answer without using evolutionary theory. Becuase I can answer all of those questions in 2 seconds flat using evolutionary and ecological explanations.
oh you don't think the Bible has a reason why so many fossils could be there in such short time? have you ever heard of the great flood? you know noah took 2 of each animal an the rest DIED AND BECAME FOSSILS! yea that accounts for all your fossils... so yes it can be answered by creationists and anti-evolutionists... sorry I've got an answer for you again... I seem to be setting a trend of answering everything from the Bible don't I? :)
oh you don't think the Bible has a reason why so many fossils could be there in such short time? have you ever heard of the great flood? you know noah took 2 of each animal an the rest DIED AND BECAME FOSSILS! yea that accounts for all your fossils... so yes it can be answered by creationists and anti-evolutionists... sorry I've got an answer for you again... I seem to be setting a trend of answering everything from the Bible don't I? :)
Soyo
05-04-2004, 03:20 PM
The only thing that makes Christianity different than any other religon is Christ. Christ is Gods physical contact with man. Basically He came, He lived, He conquered. He offers something that all men reguardless of who they are a way for eternal salvation. No works can get you there. Just accepting him can.
Ignorant? If that's how you see us then that's ok. Your opinion of me should mean what to me?:sly:
not to disprove you or anything but acctually the difference of christianity is that Christ rose from the dead, no other religion has a god that died and came back to save the lives of his people so that all they had to do was believe. the Bible is a pretty amazing thing... just that no one takes the time to read it, yet they disagree anyways... seriously though, how many of the evolutionists here have read the Bible and studied it? probably few, if any of you... you should research before you say its wrong
Ignorant? If that's how you see us then that's ok. Your opinion of me should mean what to me?:sly:
not to disprove you or anything but acctually the difference of christianity is that Christ rose from the dead, no other religion has a god that died and came back to save the lives of his people so that all they had to do was believe. the Bible is a pretty amazing thing... just that no one takes the time to read it, yet they disagree anyways... seriously though, how many of the evolutionists here have read the Bible and studied it? probably few, if any of you... you should research before you say its wrong
thrasher
05-04-2004, 04:30 PM
oh you don't think the Bible has a reason why so many fossils could be there in such short time? have you ever heard of the great flood? you know noah took 2 of each animal an the rest DIED AND BECAME FOSSILS! yea that accounts for all your fossils... so yes it can be answered by creationists and anti-evolutionists... sorry I've got an answer for you again... I seem to be setting a trend of answering everything from the Bible don't I? :)
Hence the word reasonable in my post. Right, Noah built a massive sea going vessel that could withstand 40 days of torrential storms and hold 2 of every species in the entire world. How did he collect them? How did he even know that millions of different species of bacteria exist. And how did he go about collecting those bacteria? Did he swim to the bottom of the oceans with his snorkel and grab a handful of bacteria and hope he got all of them in the ocean, at a couple miles below the surface where his body would have imploded from the pressure thousands of feet earlier? And what about the whales? And the wooly mammoths, and saber toothed tigers, and crocodiles, and great white sharks, with virtually no help? Besides, you still didn't answer my questions. Even if he did manage to do all of the above, that still does not explain how all of the extinct animals and modern species coexisted. That is not ecologically possible. There has to be some species that steps in to fill the ecological role left behind by extinct animals, something that outcompeted them. And if that did not happen, life would not exist today because the ecosystems would collapse and biodiversity would plummet to unrecoverable levels. But if animals can evolve, or "adpat" as you put it, they can slowly begin to accumulate mutations that allow them to better exploit the ecological role of the extinct species.
Hence the word reasonable in my post. Right, Noah built a massive sea going vessel that could withstand 40 days of torrential storms and hold 2 of every species in the entire world. How did he collect them? How did he even know that millions of different species of bacteria exist. And how did he go about collecting those bacteria? Did he swim to the bottom of the oceans with his snorkel and grab a handful of bacteria and hope he got all of them in the ocean, at a couple miles below the surface where his body would have imploded from the pressure thousands of feet earlier? And what about the whales? And the wooly mammoths, and saber toothed tigers, and crocodiles, and great white sharks, with virtually no help? Besides, you still didn't answer my questions. Even if he did manage to do all of the above, that still does not explain how all of the extinct animals and modern species coexisted. That is not ecologically possible. There has to be some species that steps in to fill the ecological role left behind by extinct animals, something that outcompeted them. And if that did not happen, life would not exist today because the ecosystems would collapse and biodiversity would plummet to unrecoverable levels. But if animals can evolve, or "adpat" as you put it, they can slowly begin to accumulate mutations that allow them to better exploit the ecological role of the extinct species.
loismustdie
05-04-2004, 05:03 PM
look, it would be foolish to believe that everything in the bible is exactaly correct on everything, the whole noah thing is beyond me, i believe that the flood was localized to a certain region(keep in mind pangea), and many species did not travel on the ark. the shear magnitude, and the task of getting every animal was simply a test to prove noah's faith in God......and i think that you can figure out how it was viewed by the author of genisis(i think its in that book) as a completly world-wide flood.
this opens up another area, that the bible can't be held as accurate since its only written on word of mouth, and tall-tales(common misconception). the bible has proven in many areas to be an extremely accurate history book. but some of the stories that tend to be to unbelievable usually are exagerated.....the new testement should not be put to the same flame because the gospels were not allowed in the bible unless you knew jesus or were one person away from knowing jesus, and i believe that only one of the gospels was the latter.
and just to point out: thrasher, all of the sea creatures could probly survive a flood, don't ya think :)
this opens up another area, that the bible can't be held as accurate since its only written on word of mouth, and tall-tales(common misconception). the bible has proven in many areas to be an extremely accurate history book. but some of the stories that tend to be to unbelievable usually are exagerated.....the new testement should not be put to the same flame because the gospels were not allowed in the bible unless you knew jesus or were one person away from knowing jesus, and i believe that only one of the gospels was the latter.
and just to point out: thrasher, all of the sea creatures could probly survive a flood, don't ya think :)
Joseph1082
05-04-2004, 05:03 PM
you know what, you can't say because you weren't there. How can we speak of ecosystems we never experience or have a clue to.
lazysmurff
05-04-2004, 05:08 PM
ahem, the title of the thread is " is there a gad?" not "is evolution right?"
to answer DGB, we are not perfect creations. look at the apendix, what exactly does it do again? oh wait, nothing. why an organ that does nothing? i dont understand.
and lets agree to do something(s) one, if you are going to dismiss my arguments as "theories. guesses" at least provide something besides theories and religion. also, lets stop witnessing (this goes for everyone) the fact that you worship a cannable zombie (well, he rose from the dead didnt he? and encouraged the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood...ok, its a bad joke, but cut me some slack :D) is your own business.
and yes, ive read the bible. great bunch of stories, good morals. but its HIGHLY contradictory, inconsistant, and contains nothing within it that seperates it from any other work of fiction.
and yes, i do see us (if infact we were created by a god) as that gods short comings. look at your God. perfect, infinite, and omnipotent. he created before us, beings more perfect than us. yet here we are.
SOYO: you admit the possibility of adaptation, so you have to admit the possiblity of evolution. so a bird species adapts longer beaks, then longer wings, then shorter legs, thena smaller body, then better eyes. at what point in all this does it cease to be the species that came before it? certainly the genetic makeup has changed, its become more a more efficient creature, its EVOLVED. *gasp, horror*
to answer DGB, we are not perfect creations. look at the apendix, what exactly does it do again? oh wait, nothing. why an organ that does nothing? i dont understand.
and lets agree to do something(s) one, if you are going to dismiss my arguments as "theories. guesses" at least provide something besides theories and religion. also, lets stop witnessing (this goes for everyone) the fact that you worship a cannable zombie (well, he rose from the dead didnt he? and encouraged the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood...ok, its a bad joke, but cut me some slack :D) is your own business.
and yes, ive read the bible. great bunch of stories, good morals. but its HIGHLY contradictory, inconsistant, and contains nothing within it that seperates it from any other work of fiction.
and yes, i do see us (if infact we were created by a god) as that gods short comings. look at your God. perfect, infinite, and omnipotent. he created before us, beings more perfect than us. yet here we are.
SOYO: you admit the possibility of adaptation, so you have to admit the possiblity of evolution. so a bird species adapts longer beaks, then longer wings, then shorter legs, thena smaller body, then better eyes. at what point in all this does it cease to be the species that came before it? certainly the genetic makeup has changed, its become more a more efficient creature, its EVOLVED. *gasp, horror*
Boss San
05-04-2004, 05:16 PM
umm...shut up :flipa: , i think we all know that there a lot of different religions. but according to u those other ppl who believe in other religions are also ignorant. :twak: I dont think you can think for yourselve, come on you really have to believe something, weather ur and anthiest, Christian, Jew, or Muslim! I know i dont belong to the only religion never fukin said i did, of course according to me i belong to the only real one, but ur entitaled to ur religion and allowed to think that thats the only real one. What makes you think that you are- "I am the Nightrider. I'm a fuel injected suicide machine. I am the rocker, I am the roller, I am the out-of-controller!" ---Take A Guess---? What makes you so damn sure? So again shut up.
Wow. I didn't realize I'd get flamed after the first post. :nono: Temper, temper.
*cough* Let me clear my throat first. Okay.
I'm ignorant how? I don't have a faceless entity controlling my life, I try and look through everyone's eyes not just from my own and my own personal views. You're right you do have to believe in something. How about myself? That's so wierd, I don't think I've ever heard of an ignorant Buhhdist. Learn how to type. Bring whatever you got, I wanna hear it.
Wow. I didn't realize I'd get flamed after the first post. :nono: Temper, temper.
*cough* Let me clear my throat first. Okay.
I'm ignorant how? I don't have a faceless entity controlling my life, I try and look through everyone's eyes not just from my own and my own personal views. You're right you do have to believe in something. How about myself? That's so wierd, I don't think I've ever heard of an ignorant Buhhdist. Learn how to type. Bring whatever you got, I wanna hear it.
RedLightning
05-04-2004, 05:41 PM
It's a little different considering the zebra, dodo and ardvark are still alive. You'd think the word of god would include soemthing about the life that existed before humans.
dodo=extinct thats what i learnd in middle school
dodo=extinct thats what i learnd in middle school
RedLightning
05-04-2004, 05:44 PM
Hence the word reasonable in my post. Right, Noah built a massive sea going vessel that could withstand 40 days of torrential storms and hold 2 of every species in the entire world. How did he collect them? How did he even know that millions of different species of bacteria exist. And how did he go about collecting those bacteria? Did he swim to the bottom of the oceans with his snorkel and grab a handful of bacteria and hope he got all of them in the ocean, at a couple miles below the surface where his body would have imploded from the pressure thousands of feet earlier? And what about the whales? And the wooly mammoths, and saber toothed tigers, and crocodiles, and great white sharks, with virtually no help? Besides, you still didn't answer my questions. Even if he did manage to do all of the above, that still does not explain how all of the extinct animals and modern species coexisted. That is not ecologically possible. There has to be some species that steps in to fill the ecological role left behind by extinct animals, something that outcompeted them. And if that did not happen, life would not exist today because the ecosystems would collapse and biodiversity would plummet to unrecoverable levels. But if animals can evolve, or "adpat" as you put it, they can slowly begin to accumulate mutations that allow them to better exploit the ecological role of the extinct species.
lol do you know how funny that sounded go to the bottem of the ocean to get them! why the heck would he need to?! if they live in the ocean a big flood wont hurt them!
lol do you know how funny that sounded go to the bottem of the ocean to get them! why the heck would he need to?! if they live in the ocean a big flood wont hurt them!
RedLightning
05-04-2004, 05:49 PM
Wow. I didn't realize I'd get flamed after the first post. :nono: Temper, temper.
*cough* Let me clear my throat first. Okay.
I'm ignorant how? I don't have a faceless entity controlling my life, I try and look through everyone's eyes not just from my own and my own personal views. You're right you do have to believe in something. How about myself? That's so wierd, I don't think I've ever heard of an ignorant Buhhdist. Learn how to type. Bring whatever you got, I wanna hear it.
well first off your first post made so sence at all. No one ever even said about what relgion we were talking about, so you were ignorant to say that.
"This whole thread is based on whether or not there is a God. Let's break this down a bit. This god is the judeo/christian based creator of the universe. What makes you think you're the only (or the only real) religion? You are ignorant and can't think for yourselves. There are hundreds of religions in the current world. There have been thousands in the past. What makes you so damn sure you're right."
are u buhhdist? b/c if you are then i have heard of a ignorant buhhdist who i guess only read the title.
how the heck to you know i have not listend to other arguments? I am after all reading your comments, and the others on this thread. So to quote myself Shut up, if ya did not read the whole dang thing. I really want to see again why you think these other ppl and me have been ignorant.
ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
where was i uninformed? of course i lack some knowledge about everyones religion, i guess you know all about every religion in the entire world!!!
*cough* Let me clear my throat first. Okay.
I'm ignorant how? I don't have a faceless entity controlling my life, I try and look through everyone's eyes not just from my own and my own personal views. You're right you do have to believe in something. How about myself? That's so wierd, I don't think I've ever heard of an ignorant Buhhdist. Learn how to type. Bring whatever you got, I wanna hear it.
well first off your first post made so sence at all. No one ever even said about what relgion we were talking about, so you were ignorant to say that.
"This whole thread is based on whether or not there is a God. Let's break this down a bit. This god is the judeo/christian based creator of the universe. What makes you think you're the only (or the only real) religion? You are ignorant and can't think for yourselves. There are hundreds of religions in the current world. There have been thousands in the past. What makes you so damn sure you're right."
are u buhhdist? b/c if you are then i have heard of a ignorant buhhdist who i guess only read the title.
how the heck to you know i have not listend to other arguments? I am after all reading your comments, and the others on this thread. So to quote myself Shut up, if ya did not read the whole dang thing. I really want to see again why you think these other ppl and me have been ignorant.
ig·no·rant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gnr-nt)
adj.
Lacking education or knowledge.
Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
Unaware or uninformed.
where was i uninformed? of course i lack some knowledge about everyones religion, i guess you know all about every religion in the entire world!!!
DGB454
05-04-2004, 06:28 PM
ahem, the title of the thread is " is there a gad?" not "is evolution right?" to answer DGB, we are not perfect creations. look at the apendix, what exactly does it do again? oh wait, nothing. why an organ that does nothing? i dont understand. In ancestral forms the appendix aided in cellulose digestion. So it was used at one time. You're argument against our perfection on the appendix?
and lets agree to do something(s) one, if you are going to dismiss my arguments as "theories. guesses" at least provide something besides theories and religion.
I'm not trying to dismiss your arguements. I'm just trying to dismiss theories and guesses as facts. Stephen Hawking is brilliant but as of yet he hasen't proven anything. Ever wonder why he hasn't won the Nobel yet?
also, lets stop witnessing (this goes for everyone) the fact that you worship a cannable zombie (well, he rose from the dead didnt he? and encouraged the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood...ok, its a bad joke, but cut me some slack ) is your own business. I'm sorry but I suspect you don't get it.
and yes, ive read the bible. great bunch of stories, good morals. but its HIGHLY contradictory, inconsistant, and contains nothing within it that seperates it from any other work of fiction.
Contradictory? Where? Inconsistant? Where? I love it when someone says that then does a quick search on the net to find where someone else has already set up a web page so they can copy it.
You think the Bible is fiction? Even though it has been proven to be the most accurate of all ancient manuscripts? Even if you don't believe in God it's a great read just for insight on how our ancestors lived and believed.
and yes, i do see us (if infact we were created by a god) as that gods short comings. look at your God. perfect, infinite, and omnipotent. he created before us, beings more perfect than us. yet here we are.
More perfect than us? They are spiritual beings and we are physical. Angels were created to serve man and God. We are both perfect in our own unique way.
Anyway, I will try not to witness about my God if you try and not witness about yours. Deal?
and lets agree to do something(s) one, if you are going to dismiss my arguments as "theories. guesses" at least provide something besides theories and religion.
I'm not trying to dismiss your arguements. I'm just trying to dismiss theories and guesses as facts. Stephen Hawking is brilliant but as of yet he hasen't proven anything. Ever wonder why he hasn't won the Nobel yet?
also, lets stop witnessing (this goes for everyone) the fact that you worship a cannable zombie (well, he rose from the dead didnt he? and encouraged the eating of his flesh and drinking of his blood...ok, its a bad joke, but cut me some slack ) is your own business. I'm sorry but I suspect you don't get it.
and yes, ive read the bible. great bunch of stories, good morals. but its HIGHLY contradictory, inconsistant, and contains nothing within it that seperates it from any other work of fiction.
Contradictory? Where? Inconsistant? Where? I love it when someone says that then does a quick search on the net to find where someone else has already set up a web page so they can copy it.
You think the Bible is fiction? Even though it has been proven to be the most accurate of all ancient manuscripts? Even if you don't believe in God it's a great read just for insight on how our ancestors lived and believed.
and yes, i do see us (if infact we were created by a god) as that gods short comings. look at your God. perfect, infinite, and omnipotent. he created before us, beings more perfect than us. yet here we are.
More perfect than us? They are spiritual beings and we are physical. Angels were created to serve man and God. We are both perfect in our own unique way.
Anyway, I will try not to witness about my God if you try and not witness about yours. Deal?
DGB454
05-04-2004, 06:36 PM
not to disprove you or anything but acctually the difference of christianity is that Christ rose from the dead, no other religion has a god that died and came back to save the lives of his people so that all they had to do was believe. the Bible is a pretty amazing thing... just that no one takes the time to read it, yet they disagree anyways... seriously though, how many of the evolutionists here have read the Bible and studied it? probably few, if any of you... you should research before you say its wrong
No problem. I don't mind being disproved. I guess I figured everyone understood what I meant when I said Christ is what's different about Christianity. I will explain myself more in the future.
Thanks.:)
No problem. I don't mind being disproved. I guess I figured everyone understood what I meant when I said Christ is what's different about Christianity. I will explain myself more in the future.
Thanks.:)
RedLightning
05-04-2004, 07:01 PM
WARNING:In this post I am joking around about saying crazy catholics, i just dont agree with them on that.
well what i believe about communion(probably spelled wrong) it that im not really eating his body, it represnts that he died for our sins and that it saved us. His body was broken like the bread, its those crazy catholics that think that they are really eating his body! lol, so remember dont lump us all into one clay. And as boss san would say, dont be ignorant and think that they are the only christian religion!!! lol(its a joke)
well what i believe about communion(probably spelled wrong) it that im not really eating his body, it represnts that he died for our sins and that it saved us. His body was broken like the bread, its those crazy catholics that think that they are really eating his body! lol, so remember dont lump us all into one clay. And as boss san would say, dont be ignorant and think that they are the only christian religion!!! lol(its a joke)
lazysmurff
05-04-2004, 08:00 PM
In ancestral forms the appendix aided in cellulose digestion. So it was used at one time. You're argument against our perfection on the appendix?
nope, just an example. so, ancestral forms? does this mean your supporting evolution? :biggrin: there are several other things i would use to show our imperfection, like the fraility of our skin, the serious disease suceptability, etc
I'm not trying to dismiss your arguements. I'm just trying to dismiss theories and guesses as facts. Stephen Hawking is brilliant but as of yet he hasen't proven anything. Ever wonder why he hasn't won the Nobel yet?
and neither have you. stating religion as fact is just as lucrative as stating quantum physics theories as fact. at least physics has the backing of research, where religion is essentially belief in something that cannot be proven, and an acceptance that it cant be proven
Contradictory? Where? Inconsistant? Where? I love it when someone says that then does a quick search on the net to find where someone else has already set up a web page so they can copy it.
You think the Bible is fiction? Even though it has been proven to be the most accurate of all ancient manuscripts? Even if you don't believe in God it's a great read just for insight on how our ancestors lived and believed.
yup, and have you ever looked at those web pages? even the worst of authors these days makes sure their work at least attempts continuity. the bible does not. and yes, there are factual things that are mentioned in the bible, especially the life of jesus. but all the fantastical things, like stopping the sun, walking on water, etc. are fictional.
More perfect than us? They are spiritual beings and we are physical. Angels were created to serve man and God. We are both perfect in our own unique way.
a serious disagreement we have. I do not believe that we, as we are now, are perfect or even approaching perfect. there are simply too many things that ould be better about us.
Anyway, I will try not to witness about my God if you try and not witness about yours. Deal?
i have no god to witness about, i dont quite understand this statement.
*whew, deep breath*
nameless dork...really dude, three posts in a row is a bit much, calm down, breathe, we've been pretty friendly too each other so far, lets keep it that way.
now: we're not trying to prove or disprove RELIGION here, just the existence of god. I have done my best to provide arguments in an attempt to disprove god (namely, an imperfect creation, that, rationally, we shouldnt believe in an infinite being, given nothing else to go on, etc) I have recieved no proof one way or the other on any of them, excepting a difference of oppinion on the perfection thing. This thread has degenerated into evolution and name calling, and as such, i will remove myself from the conversation unless directly addressed with a well thought out post.
nope, just an example. so, ancestral forms? does this mean your supporting evolution? :biggrin: there are several other things i would use to show our imperfection, like the fraility of our skin, the serious disease suceptability, etc
I'm not trying to dismiss your arguements. I'm just trying to dismiss theories and guesses as facts. Stephen Hawking is brilliant but as of yet he hasen't proven anything. Ever wonder why he hasn't won the Nobel yet?
and neither have you. stating religion as fact is just as lucrative as stating quantum physics theories as fact. at least physics has the backing of research, where religion is essentially belief in something that cannot be proven, and an acceptance that it cant be proven
Contradictory? Where? Inconsistant? Where? I love it when someone says that then does a quick search on the net to find where someone else has already set up a web page so they can copy it.
You think the Bible is fiction? Even though it has been proven to be the most accurate of all ancient manuscripts? Even if you don't believe in God it's a great read just for insight on how our ancestors lived and believed.
yup, and have you ever looked at those web pages? even the worst of authors these days makes sure their work at least attempts continuity. the bible does not. and yes, there are factual things that are mentioned in the bible, especially the life of jesus. but all the fantastical things, like stopping the sun, walking on water, etc. are fictional.
More perfect than us? They are spiritual beings and we are physical. Angels were created to serve man and God. We are both perfect in our own unique way.
a serious disagreement we have. I do not believe that we, as we are now, are perfect or even approaching perfect. there are simply too many things that ould be better about us.
Anyway, I will try not to witness about my God if you try and not witness about yours. Deal?
i have no god to witness about, i dont quite understand this statement.
*whew, deep breath*
nameless dork...really dude, three posts in a row is a bit much, calm down, breathe, we've been pretty friendly too each other so far, lets keep it that way.
now: we're not trying to prove or disprove RELIGION here, just the existence of god. I have done my best to provide arguments in an attempt to disprove god (namely, an imperfect creation, that, rationally, we shouldnt believe in an infinite being, given nothing else to go on, etc) I have recieved no proof one way or the other on any of them, excepting a difference of oppinion on the perfection thing. This thread has degenerated into evolution and name calling, and as such, i will remove myself from the conversation unless directly addressed with a well thought out post.
thrasher
05-04-2004, 08:30 PM
lol do you know how funny that sounded go to the bottem of the ocean to get them! why the heck would he need to?! if they live in the ocean a big flood wont hurt them!
Heh, oh yeah, kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one. Ah well.
Heh, oh yeah, kind of put my foot in my mouth on that one. Ah well.
RedLightning
05-04-2004, 08:35 PM
Thrasher the thing with collecting all the animals you kinda have to believe in God to understand or believe that Noah really did that. Because without God's help, Noah could not have done that, but thats the key thing, "without God's help" i think that God did help him thats the only way its true.
DGB454
05-04-2004, 09:50 PM
nope, just an example. so, ancestral forms? does this mean your supporting evolution? there are several other things i would use to show our imperfection, like the fraility of our skin, the serious disease suceptability, etc
Read back on earlier post. I have always stated I believe in evolution.
The fraility of our self healing perfectly abapted for our physical body not to mention largest organ on our body skin? I think it's a pretty amazing thing.
and neither have you.
And yet no one is quoting my theories as truths like they are his.
stating religion as fact is just as lucrative as stating quantum physics theories as fact. at least physics has the backing of research, where religion is essentially belief in something that cannot be proven, and an acceptance that it cant be proven
Religion is putting into practice ones belief system. Like science, philosophy and Christianity. I never stated Religion was fact but it's pretty obvious it is.
yup, and have you ever looked at those web pages? even the worst of authors these days makes sure their work at least attempts continuity. the bible does not. and yes, there are factual things that are mentioned in the bible, especially the life of jesus. but all the fantastical things, like stopping the sun, walking on water, etc. are fictional.
Yes I have seen a number of them. I have also seen a number of pages that shoot them down. I put little stock in either of them. I prefer to find out for myself rather than take someone elses opinion on the matter.
I still don't see where the Bible lacks contunity. How do you know these things are fictional? Because we can't do them? He is after all the son of God.
a serious disagreement we have. I do not believe that we, as we are now, are perfect or even approaching perfect. there are simply too many things that ould be better about us. Ok. You believe we are imperfect and I believe we are perfect. Not a problem. Just a difference in opinion.
i have no god to witness about, i dont quite understand this statement.
But you do. You don't see it as a god but you treat it as god. It's science and humanism. You accept no other god before it. You respect it above all other gods. Etc..... This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
Not trying to get you upset with me on this subject. It's been very interesting. Thanks for the discussion. I'll check back in tomorrow.
Read back on earlier post. I have always stated I believe in evolution.
The fraility of our self healing perfectly abapted for our physical body not to mention largest organ on our body skin? I think it's a pretty amazing thing.
and neither have you.
And yet no one is quoting my theories as truths like they are his.
stating religion as fact is just as lucrative as stating quantum physics theories as fact. at least physics has the backing of research, where religion is essentially belief in something that cannot be proven, and an acceptance that it cant be proven
Religion is putting into practice ones belief system. Like science, philosophy and Christianity. I never stated Religion was fact but it's pretty obvious it is.
yup, and have you ever looked at those web pages? even the worst of authors these days makes sure their work at least attempts continuity. the bible does not. and yes, there are factual things that are mentioned in the bible, especially the life of jesus. but all the fantastical things, like stopping the sun, walking on water, etc. are fictional.
Yes I have seen a number of them. I have also seen a number of pages that shoot them down. I put little stock in either of them. I prefer to find out for myself rather than take someone elses opinion on the matter.
I still don't see where the Bible lacks contunity. How do you know these things are fictional? Because we can't do them? He is after all the son of God.
a serious disagreement we have. I do not believe that we, as we are now, are perfect or even approaching perfect. there are simply too many things that ould be better about us. Ok. You believe we are imperfect and I believe we are perfect. Not a problem. Just a difference in opinion.
i have no god to witness about, i dont quite understand this statement.
But you do. You don't see it as a god but you treat it as god. It's science and humanism. You accept no other god before it. You respect it above all other gods. Etc..... This is just my opinion so take it for what it's worth.
Not trying to get you upset with me on this subject. It's been very interesting. Thanks for the discussion. I'll check back in tomorrow.
lazysmurff
05-04-2004, 10:01 PM
yes, the discussion has been wonderful.
anyways, yes, i now see your point on my "god". my god is thought, actually. i distrust science if for no other reason than "irrefutable science" has changed its mind so many times its ridiculous.
but yes, a difference of a opinion on the perfection humanity and the world will prevent us from ever reaching a conclusion to this argument.
its been fun.
anyways, yes, i now see your point on my "god". my god is thought, actually. i distrust science if for no other reason than "irrefutable science" has changed its mind so many times its ridiculous.
but yes, a difference of a opinion on the perfection humanity and the world will prevent us from ever reaching a conclusion to this argument.
its been fun.
FastGuy000
05-04-2004, 11:48 PM
YogsVR4
05-05-2004, 09:24 AM
Perfection is in the Universe. Everything works perfectly together. It never fails. That in itself is an amazing fact. Nothing built by man lasts indefinately. It breaks down. The physical world never does. The only thing that changes is our understanding of it.
While that may not be proof to some of devine intervention, it does show me that there are things that are beyond our comprehension and understanding. The more we know, the more we realize that we don't know.
FastGuy - feel free to never stop in this thread again :rolleyes:
While that may not be proof to some of devine intervention, it does show me that there are things that are beyond our comprehension and understanding. The more we know, the more we realize that we don't know.
FastGuy - feel free to never stop in this thread again :rolleyes:
thrasher
05-05-2004, 10:14 AM
Thrasher the thing with collecting all the animals you kinda have to believe in God to understand or believe that Noah really did that. Because without God's help, Noah could not have done that, but thats the key thing, "without God's help" i think that God did help him thats the only way its true.
I am sure this has probably been beaten to death before, but why don't amazing acts under the power of god happen anymore. Sure, there are tales of the stigmata (can't remember the name of the priest who had it sometime in the last century), but I have also seen lots of disconfirmin evidence of the stigmata as well. And I do realize that three miracles are required for cannonization, but then again those are also unsubtantiated. I can say with certainty that I have never witnesses a miracle, and I don't really know anyone who has. Especially nothing of the cailber seen in the bible, or even in Jesus' time.
I am sure this has probably been beaten to death before, but why don't amazing acts under the power of god happen anymore. Sure, there are tales of the stigmata (can't remember the name of the priest who had it sometime in the last century), but I have also seen lots of disconfirmin evidence of the stigmata as well. And I do realize that three miracles are required for cannonization, but then again those are also unsubtantiated. I can say with certainty that I have never witnesses a miracle, and I don't really know anyone who has. Especially nothing of the cailber seen in the bible, or even in Jesus' time.
Raz_Kaz
05-05-2004, 12:04 PM
There is this amazing book that explains how science can prove religion right...I forget the name of it but it has to do with the Qu'ran, you do not have to be muslim to read it, it's in english and it's really cool...I'll get back to you guy's when I find uot it's title so you guys can check it out if ya want
Joseph1082
05-05-2004, 03:30 PM
I think you have seen modern miracles, you just don't ackowledge it. You've never heard stories say someone is in the hospital, the doctor pretty much tells the family to make funeral arrangments, but then somehow this person's body comes back... that's a modern-day miracle if you ask me!
Soyo
05-05-2004, 05:24 PM
Hence the word reasonable in my post. Right, Noah built a massive sea going vessel that could withstand 40 days of torrential storms and hold 2 of every species in the entire world. How did he collect them? How did he even know that millions of different species of bacteria exist. And how did he go about collecting those bacteria? Did he swim to the bottom of the oceans with his snorkel and grab a handful of bacteria and hope he got all of them in the ocean, at a couple miles below the surface where his body would have imploded from the pressure thousands of feet earlier? And what about the whales? And the wooly mammoths, and saber toothed tigers, and crocodiles, and great white sharks, with virtually no help? Besides, you still didn't answer my questions. Even if he did manage to do all of the above, that still does not explain how all of the extinct animals and modern species coexisted. That is not ecologically possible. There has to be some species that steps in to fill the ecological role left behind by extinct animals, something that outcompeted them. And if that did not happen, life would not exist today because the ecosystems would collapse and biodiversity would plummet to unrecoverable levels. But if animals can evolve, or "adpat" as you put it, they can slowly begin to accumulate mutations that allow them to better exploit the ecological role of the extinct species.
ok lets think about this... its a flood... why would he need to swim to the bottom of the ocean to put bacteria on a boat? it lives in the water, so why would the flood kill it? that right there makes your whole statement dumb... plus the fact that basteria aren't animals, and don't breath, so they can't drown, so why would they be on the boat? there ya go, problem solved, anymore great ideas about saving something that lives in water by keeping it on a boat during the flood? still sound like a good arguement to you? :)
There was a great flood.
How could he 2 of every creature that lives in the sea onto the arc so they wouldn't drown?
Here's your sign
(for those of you who have seen Blue Collar Comedy Tour :rofl: )
and ofcourse some animals are out "competed" as you put it, but that has nothing to do with the flood and Noah and the arc now does it? after the flood only 2 of each animal was alive so they had to totally repopulate, making it easier for them to be out "competed" is that good enough for you?
ok lets think about this... its a flood... why would he need to swim to the bottom of the ocean to put bacteria on a boat? it lives in the water, so why would the flood kill it? that right there makes your whole statement dumb... plus the fact that basteria aren't animals, and don't breath, so they can't drown, so why would they be on the boat? there ya go, problem solved, anymore great ideas about saving something that lives in water by keeping it on a boat during the flood? still sound like a good arguement to you? :)
There was a great flood.
How could he 2 of every creature that lives in the sea onto the arc so they wouldn't drown?
Here's your sign
(for those of you who have seen Blue Collar Comedy Tour :rofl: )
and ofcourse some animals are out "competed" as you put it, but that has nothing to do with the flood and Noah and the arc now does it? after the flood only 2 of each animal was alive so they had to totally repopulate, making it easier for them to be out "competed" is that good enough for you?
Soyo
05-05-2004, 05:32 PM
look, it would be foolish to believe that everything in the bible is exactaly correct on everything, the whole noah thing is beyond me, i believe that the flood was localized to a certain region(keep in mind pangea), and many species did not travel on the ark. the shear magnitude, and the task of getting every animal was simply a test to prove noah's faith in God......and i think that you can figure out how it was viewed by the author of genisis(i think its in that book) as a completly world-wide flood.
this opens up another area, that the bible can't be held as accurate since its only written on word of mouth, and tall-tales(common misconception). the bible has proven in many areas to be an extremely accurate history book. but some of the stories that tend to be to unbelievable usually are exagerated.....the new testement should not be put to the same flame because the gospels were not allowed in the bible unless you knew jesus or were one person away from knowing jesus, and i believe that only one of the gospels was the latter.
and just to point out: thrasher, all of the sea creatures could probly survive a flood, don't ya think :)
like you said, the Bible has proven to an extremely accurate book... then you say some things are unbelievable... well can you prove it wrong? just because you can't understand it happening doesn't mean it can't... its God, if he can make the universe, people, animals, plants, everything why could he not give Noah the wisdom to build a huge arc and the power to collect 2 of every animal? and everything in the Bible is not by word of mouth, or even by his disciples... its all written by God, through people of great faith... but ofcourse you can't believe in a great flood or God writting the Bible through people because you don't believe it and don't have faith, but I'd like to see someone disprove the Bible in ANY way... come on, give it a try, it'll be fun :)
this opens up another area, that the bible can't be held as accurate since its only written on word of mouth, and tall-tales(common misconception). the bible has proven in many areas to be an extremely accurate history book. but some of the stories that tend to be to unbelievable usually are exagerated.....the new testement should not be put to the same flame because the gospels were not allowed in the bible unless you knew jesus or were one person away from knowing jesus, and i believe that only one of the gospels was the latter.
and just to point out: thrasher, all of the sea creatures could probly survive a flood, don't ya think :)
like you said, the Bible has proven to an extremely accurate book... then you say some things are unbelievable... well can you prove it wrong? just because you can't understand it happening doesn't mean it can't... its God, if he can make the universe, people, animals, plants, everything why could he not give Noah the wisdom to build a huge arc and the power to collect 2 of every animal? and everything in the Bible is not by word of mouth, or even by his disciples... its all written by God, through people of great faith... but ofcourse you can't believe in a great flood or God writting the Bible through people because you don't believe it and don't have faith, but I'd like to see someone disprove the Bible in ANY way... come on, give it a try, it'll be fun :)
DGB454
05-05-2004, 05:41 PM
I am sure this has probably been beaten to death before, but why don't amazing acts under the power of god happen anymore. Sure, there are tales of the stigmata (can't remember the name of the priest who had it sometime in the last century), but I have also seen lots of disconfirmin evidence of the stigmata as well. And I do realize that three miracles are required for cannonization, but then again those are also unsubtantiated. I can say with certainty that I have never witnesses a miracle, and I don't really know anyone who has. Especially nothing of the cailber seen in the bible, or even in Jesus' time.
Great question. I have wondered that myself before. I did some looking into it some time ago and this is the conclusion I drew from it.
The miracles I am guessing you are refering to are ones like the parting of the sea by Moses, bringing Lazarus back from the dead and walking on water by Jesus to name a few. Keep in mind that these were extraordinary men with extraordinary faith under extraordinary circumstances.(let's see if I can say extraordinary a few more times) During the Old Testament times the miracles performed seemed to mainly be done to preserve and protect and establish Gods people. Men like Moses were hand picked by God to carry out these miracles. Their faith was very strong because they were in comunication with God himself. During the New Testament time it appears that most of the miracles were performed in order to establish who Jesus was and to establish his Church. Again the Faith of Christ was extremely strong because he was in contact with God and he was the Son of God. The apostles of Christ performed many miracles also and I imagine their faith was strong because of their association with Christ and seeing his miracles and accepting he was the Son of God.
Today I am under the impression that faith like those men had is not as abundant as it was then. Even during the time of Christ faith was an issue. Look in Mark 6
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Even Christ had a hard time performing miracles when he entered a place where the lack of faith was an issue.
Faith is the key.
I think that's why miracles like those written about in the Bible aren't as abundant as they once were. They still happen but not as often.
:2cents:
Great question. I have wondered that myself before. I did some looking into it some time ago and this is the conclusion I drew from it.
The miracles I am guessing you are refering to are ones like the parting of the sea by Moses, bringing Lazarus back from the dead and walking on water by Jesus to name a few. Keep in mind that these were extraordinary men with extraordinary faith under extraordinary circumstances.(let's see if I can say extraordinary a few more times) During the Old Testament times the miracles performed seemed to mainly be done to preserve and protect and establish Gods people. Men like Moses were hand picked by God to carry out these miracles. Their faith was very strong because they were in comunication with God himself. During the New Testament time it appears that most of the miracles were performed in order to establish who Jesus was and to establish his Church. Again the Faith of Christ was extremely strong because he was in contact with God and he was the Son of God. The apostles of Christ performed many miracles also and I imagine their faith was strong because of their association with Christ and seeing his miracles and accepting he was the Son of God.
Today I am under the impression that faith like those men had is not as abundant as it was then. Even during the time of Christ faith was an issue. Look in Mark 6
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Even Christ had a hard time performing miracles when he entered a place where the lack of faith was an issue.
Faith is the key.
I think that's why miracles like those written about in the Bible aren't as abundant as they once were. They still happen but not as often.
:2cents:
Soyo
05-05-2004, 05:47 PM
for those of you trying to argue that God made us imperfect so thats a 'mess-up' on his part... God made man to worship him and have faith in him, then die and go to his kingdom to live forever. but at first we were perfect and sinless, untill eve was tempted by the devil and disobeyed God and then adam did so as well... God made us perfect but we give into the temptations of satan and his demons whom cause us to sin so that we will end up in Hell for eternal suffering... and if you didn't know the devil/satan/lucifer was at first an angle, but he turned evil and tryed to 'overthrow' God(for a lack of a better term) and God punished him by sending him to earth to live in fire and brimstone in the center of the earth, now he and his demons do everything they can to make sure people don't believe or have faith in God...
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist."
"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist."
Soyo
05-05-2004, 06:02 PM
I am sure this has probably been beaten to death before, but why don't amazing acts under the power of god happen anymore. Sure, there are tales of the stigmata (can't remember the name of the priest who had it sometime in the last century), but I have also seen lots of disconfirmin evidence of the stigmata as well. And I do realize that three miracles are required for cannonization, but then again those are also unsubtantiated. I can say with certainty that I have never witnesses a miracle, and I don't really know anyone who has. Especially nothing of the cailber seen in the bible, or even in Jesus' time.
Millions of miracles happen all the time, its just that we don't always hear about them, or we take them as luck or coinsadence(sp?)
go to a hospital and ask a doctor that has been around for awhile how many people that should have been dead from a car accident, gun shot, heart attack, blood lose... whatever it is, see thats the things people take as luck or coinsadence(sp? again) but really they are miracles of God, people just don't understand it and most people can't even comprehend it.
ok so theres no parting of the red sea or great floods today, but does it matter? people saw it then and didn't believe or have faith, why would it help now? people always say, well if I could see a real miracle I would believe, when really miracles happen all around us every day, we just look past them. God could knock on your door and talk to you for an hour and you would probably still say that it was just some crazy guy that lived under a bridge because you don't want to believe... thats the problem, people don't want to believe because its easier not to, because when you believe and have faith you will be persicuted by non-believers and mocked and called names or whatever... people will think your crazy for believing "some fictional book" and just put off the fact that so much of it has been proven and so many things have been forshadowed in it, yet they think some normal guy just made it up and it means nothing... even 9/11 was forshadowed in the Bible, I'm drawing a blank on the verse now but if anyone else knows it post it up for me, if not I'll post it later tonight after I look it up.
Millions of miracles happen all the time, its just that we don't always hear about them, or we take them as luck or coinsadence(sp?)
go to a hospital and ask a doctor that has been around for awhile how many people that should have been dead from a car accident, gun shot, heart attack, blood lose... whatever it is, see thats the things people take as luck or coinsadence(sp? again) but really they are miracles of God, people just don't understand it and most people can't even comprehend it.
ok so theres no parting of the red sea or great floods today, but does it matter? people saw it then and didn't believe or have faith, why would it help now? people always say, well if I could see a real miracle I would believe, when really miracles happen all around us every day, we just look past them. God could knock on your door and talk to you for an hour and you would probably still say that it was just some crazy guy that lived under a bridge because you don't want to believe... thats the problem, people don't want to believe because its easier not to, because when you believe and have faith you will be persicuted by non-believers and mocked and called names or whatever... people will think your crazy for believing "some fictional book" and just put off the fact that so much of it has been proven and so many things have been forshadowed in it, yet they think some normal guy just made it up and it means nothing... even 9/11 was forshadowed in the Bible, I'm drawing a blank on the verse now but if anyone else knows it post it up for me, if not I'll post it later tonight after I look it up.
Prelewd
05-06-2004, 01:52 AM
why do we need miracles today? the lack of faith maybe..
someone surviving a gunshot is hardly a miracle compared to walking on water.. if i see someone legitimately walk on water, and then part the water to show me he's not standing on something, i will devote my life to god.
someone surviving a gunshot is hardly a miracle compared to walking on water.. if i see someone legitimately walk on water, and then part the water to show me he's not standing on something, i will devote my life to god.
YogsVR4
05-06-2004, 08:13 AM
why do we need miracles today? the lack of faith maybe..
someone surviving a gunshot is hardly a miracle compared to walking on water.. if i see someone legitimately walk on water, and then part the water to show me he's not standing on something, i will devote my life to god.
Just to be picky - I've walked on water many times. I call it ice fishing, but you can call it a miracle if you wish :p
someone surviving a gunshot is hardly a miracle compared to walking on water.. if i see someone legitimately walk on water, and then part the water to show me he's not standing on something, i will devote my life to god.
Just to be picky - I've walked on water many times. I call it ice fishing, but you can call it a miracle if you wish :p
DGB454
05-06-2004, 08:17 AM
Read my post above. Lack of faith is a big part of the reason miracles like you are talking about don't happen today IMO. Even if they did I doubt many would believe. Jesus ran into this. People wanted more and more miracles to believe but this is what he said.
Mathew 11:20-23
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
These people were witnesses to Jesus himself performing miracles and still didn't believe. If a miracle like you are talking about happened in front of millions today I doubt many would consider it anything more than a magic trick done with smoke and mirrors.
Mathew 11:20-23
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent.
"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
These people were witnesses to Jesus himself performing miracles and still didn't believe. If a miracle like you are talking about happened in front of millions today I doubt many would consider it anything more than a magic trick done with smoke and mirrors.
Soyo
05-06-2004, 10:25 AM
I jsut read a story last night about this group of teenagers that were on a mission trip in some third world country(it said which one but ofcourse I have horrible memory) and they were preaching to some people and then prayed with them. after they finished praying a man brouht his cripled son to the teens and said something to the effect of have your God heal my sons legs, so they prayed about it twice and nothing happened, well there was a guy named andrey(how you pronounce that I have no clue) standing close by watching all this after he had listened to them preach. well then one of the teens called andrey over and told him that god wanted him to heal the yound boys legs.. obviously andrey was confused and didn't quite unerstand, but the teen convinced him to try, so andrey knelt and prayed for the boys legs. when he finished the boy still layed on the ground as before... dissapointed, andrey began to walk away, but as he glanced back over his shoulder he saw the boy stand up and walk over to his father, then the boy began to run around in the streets.
see miracles do happen, just the fact that I heard that story last night, after people asked about miracles is a miracle if you ask me. I'm sure many of you won't believe it and you'll say eiter I made it up or the people tht wrote the book made it up... but that just goes back to a lack of faith... when you don't have faith, nothings a miracle, its all just coinsadence and luck to you...
see miracles do happen, just the fact that I heard that story last night, after people asked about miracles is a miracle if you ask me. I'm sure many of you won't believe it and you'll say eiter I made it up or the people tht wrote the book made it up... but that just goes back to a lack of faith... when you don't have faith, nothings a miracle, its all just coinsadence and luck to you...
Prelewd
05-06-2004, 05:22 PM
see miracles do happen, just the fact that I heard that story last night, after people asked about miracles is a miracle if you ask me. I'm sure many of you won't believe it and you'll say eiter I made it up or the people tht wrote the book made it up... but that just goes back to a lack of faith... when you don't have faith, nothings a miracle, its all just coinsadence and luck to you...
you say lack of faith is why miracles do not happen? to me that doesn't seem like a legitimate cause for miracles not happening.. there are plenty of people with faith in god. several are friends of mine. nothing really miraculous has happened to them.. good things happen to them, because they are good people, but no miracles that I have seen.
what's the definition of a miracle anyway? if i find a dollar on the ground, is that a miracle? some poor bastard who needs 1 more dollar to get his kidney transplant could call it a miracle.. it seems a little relative.
you say lack of faith is why miracles do not happen? to me that doesn't seem like a legitimate cause for miracles not happening.. there are plenty of people with faith in god. several are friends of mine. nothing really miraculous has happened to them.. good things happen to them, because they are good people, but no miracles that I have seen.
what's the definition of a miracle anyway? if i find a dollar on the ground, is that a miracle? some poor bastard who needs 1 more dollar to get his kidney transplant could call it a miracle.. it seems a little relative.
Joseph1082
05-06-2004, 05:22 PM
surviving a fatal gunshot sounds like a miracle to me. keyoword=FATAL
Prelewd
05-06-2004, 05:23 PM
surviving a fatal gunshot sounds like a miracle to me. keyoword=FATAL
if the gunshot was fatal, you would be dead, otherwise it would be a potentially fatal gunshot.
if the gunshot was fatal, you would be dead, otherwise it would be a potentially fatal gunshot.
thrasher
05-06-2004, 05:50 PM
ok lets think about this... its a flood... why would he need to swim to the bottom of the ocean to put bacteria on a boat? it lives in the water, so why would the flood kill it? that right there makes your whole statement dumb... plus the fact that basteria aren't animals, and don't breath, so they can't drown, so why would they be on the boat? there ya go, problem solved, anymore great ideas about saving something that lives in water by keeping it on a boat during the flood? still sound like a good arguement to you? :)
There was a great flood.
How could he 2 of every creature that lives in the sea onto the arc so they wouldn't drown?
Here's your sign
(for those of you who have seen Blue Collar Comedy Tour :rofl: )
and ofcourse some animals are out "competed" as you put it, but that has nothing to do with the flood and Noah and the arc now does it? after the flood only 2 of each animal was alive so they had to totally repopulate, making it easier for them to be out "competed" is that good enough for you?
See my above post, my common sense eluded me there for a second. What I was getting at is the idea that Noah would have had no method for finding 2 of every animal in the world. He would have absolutely no way of knowing of all of the species in the world, nonetheless being physically capable of getting them all into his big fat boat.
I guess what this really boils down to is what makes the most sense. I know that evolutionary theory isn't flawless, but I know that creationism has many more holes, and is less believable. In addition, it is in no way, shape, or form testable. Why is it that creationists still hold on to 2000+ year old ideas. Evolution can and has been tested and proven. There will never be any way to test or prove creationism. It requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith, which still doesn't make sense to me. We have so many ways of scientifically testing the world, yet the knowledge of people 2000 years ago was superior to ours. I just don't get it. It's irrational and illogical.
There was a great flood.
How could he 2 of every creature that lives in the sea onto the arc so they wouldn't drown?
Here's your sign
(for those of you who have seen Blue Collar Comedy Tour :rofl: )
and ofcourse some animals are out "competed" as you put it, but that has nothing to do with the flood and Noah and the arc now does it? after the flood only 2 of each animal was alive so they had to totally repopulate, making it easier for them to be out "competed" is that good enough for you?
See my above post, my common sense eluded me there for a second. What I was getting at is the idea that Noah would have had no method for finding 2 of every animal in the world. He would have absolutely no way of knowing of all of the species in the world, nonetheless being physically capable of getting them all into his big fat boat.
I guess what this really boils down to is what makes the most sense. I know that evolutionary theory isn't flawless, but I know that creationism has many more holes, and is less believable. In addition, it is in no way, shape, or form testable. Why is it that creationists still hold on to 2000+ year old ideas. Evolution can and has been tested and proven. There will never be any way to test or prove creationism. It requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith, which still doesn't make sense to me. We have so many ways of scientifically testing the world, yet the knowledge of people 2000 years ago was superior to ours. I just don't get it. It's irrational and illogical.
DGB454
05-06-2004, 06:40 PM
See my above post, my common sense eluded me there for a second. What I was getting at is the idea that Noah would have had no method for finding 2 of every animal in the world. He would have absolutely no way of knowing of all of the species in the world, nonetheless being physically capable of getting them all into his big fat boat.
Miracle?:)
I guess what this really boils down to is what makes the most sense. I know that evolutionary theory isn't flawless, but I know that creationism has many more holes, and is less believable. In addition, it is in no way, shape, or form testable. Why is it that creationists still hold on to 2000+ year old ideas. Evolution can and has been tested and proven. There will never be any way to test or prove creationism. It requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith, which still doesn't make sense to me. We have so many ways of scientifically testing the world, yet the knowledge of people 2000 years ago was superior to ours. I just don't get it. It's irrational and illogical.
Creationism has many holes? What are they?
I don't argue about the fact that evolution happens because it has been proven. I just don't believe it happened to us. I don't think everyone wants me to go into that again so see my earlier post on that.
"a MUCH bigger leap of faith" That's it exactly. Faith.
Irrational and illogical? Maybe to those that aren't Christians but to those of us that are it's the most rational and logical thing we have ever done.
Miracle?:)
I guess what this really boils down to is what makes the most sense. I know that evolutionary theory isn't flawless, but I know that creationism has many more holes, and is less believable. In addition, it is in no way, shape, or form testable. Why is it that creationists still hold on to 2000+ year old ideas. Evolution can and has been tested and proven. There will never be any way to test or prove creationism. It requires a MUCH bigger leap of faith, which still doesn't make sense to me. We have so many ways of scientifically testing the world, yet the knowledge of people 2000 years ago was superior to ours. I just don't get it. It's irrational and illogical.
Creationism has many holes? What are they?
I don't argue about the fact that evolution happens because it has been proven. I just don't believe it happened to us. I don't think everyone wants me to go into that again so see my earlier post on that.
"a MUCH bigger leap of faith" That's it exactly. Faith.
Irrational and illogical? Maybe to those that aren't Christians but to those of us that are it's the most rational and logical thing we have ever done.
Prelewd
05-06-2004, 06:43 PM
Irrational and illogical? Maybe to those that aren't Christians but to those of us that are it's the most rational and logical thing we have ever done.
I thought you said god did it? Not a government trying to control it's people.. hmm..
I thought you said god did it? Not a government trying to control it's people.. hmm..
MagicRat
05-06-2004, 08:03 PM
Normally I avoid these threads as they only make me very angry. The capacity for normally intellegent people to become blinded to reason and common sense by religious fairytales is astounding.
I do not mean to offend, as almost all of the religious threads are written by decent and moral people, with whom I would love to have as neighbours.
However, arguing theology is analogous to arguing the finer points of daytime soap operas. It is a fictional construct which has no basis in reality.
I believe in the fastest growing 'religious' movement in the world: athieism.
I know that there is no god of any kind looking after any of us. We neither owe our existance to any god nor will receive any devine reward for our religious beliefs.
I believe in the rule of law and working for the greater good of mankind. These beliefs are not necessarily religious but are rooted in the ability of people to organise themselves into cooperative groups working for the benefit of all, whether that is the family unit, your neighbourhood, city, country or culture.
Imagine a world without religion. The sooner mankind jettisons religious conviction, the better we all will be.
I also believe in freedom of religion, expression and thought. However, the religious excesses, cruelty and violence of others around the world has only affirmed my convictions.
I do not mean to offend, as almost all of the religious threads are written by decent and moral people, with whom I would love to have as neighbours.
However, arguing theology is analogous to arguing the finer points of daytime soap operas. It is a fictional construct which has no basis in reality.
I believe in the fastest growing 'religious' movement in the world: athieism.
I know that there is no god of any kind looking after any of us. We neither owe our existance to any god nor will receive any devine reward for our religious beliefs.
I believe in the rule of law and working for the greater good of mankind. These beliefs are not necessarily religious but are rooted in the ability of people to organise themselves into cooperative groups working for the benefit of all, whether that is the family unit, your neighbourhood, city, country or culture.
Imagine a world without religion. The sooner mankind jettisons religious conviction, the better we all will be.
I also believe in freedom of religion, expression and thought. However, the religious excesses, cruelty and violence of others around the world has only affirmed my convictions.
DGB454
05-06-2004, 10:23 PM
I thought you said god did it? Not a government trying to control it's people.. hmm..
I don't completly understand what you mean.
I don't completly understand what you mean.
Boss San
05-06-2004, 11:11 PM
Normally I avoid these threads as they only make me very angry. The capacity for normally intellegent people to become blinded to reason and common sense by religious fairytales is astounding.
I do not mean to offend, as almost all of the religious threads are written by decent and moral people, with whom I would love to have as neighbours.
However, arguing theology is analogous to arguing the finer points of daytime soap operas. It is a fictional construct which has no basis in reality.
I believe in the fastest growing 'religious' movement in the world: athieism.
I know that there is no god of any kind looking after any of us. We neither owe our existance to any god nor will receive any devine reward for our religious beliefs.
I believe in the rule of law and working for the greater good of mankind. These beliefs are not necessarily religious but are rooted in the ability of people to organise themselves into cooperative groups working for the benefit of all, whether that is the family unit, your neighbourhood, city, country or culture.
Imagine a world without religion. The sooner mankind jettisons religious conviction, the better we all will be.
I also believe in freedom of religion, expression and thought. However, the religious excesses, cruelty and violence of others around the world has only affirmed my convictions.
Finally, someone that thinks along the lines as I do. Well, two down, too many to go.
I do not mean to offend, as almost all of the religious threads are written by decent and moral people, with whom I would love to have as neighbours.
However, arguing theology is analogous to arguing the finer points of daytime soap operas. It is a fictional construct which has no basis in reality.
I believe in the fastest growing 'religious' movement in the world: athieism.
I know that there is no god of any kind looking after any of us. We neither owe our existance to any god nor will receive any devine reward for our religious beliefs.
I believe in the rule of law and working for the greater good of mankind. These beliefs are not necessarily religious but are rooted in the ability of people to organise themselves into cooperative groups working for the benefit of all, whether that is the family unit, your neighbourhood, city, country or culture.
Imagine a world without religion. The sooner mankind jettisons religious conviction, the better we all will be.
I also believe in freedom of religion, expression and thought. However, the religious excesses, cruelty and violence of others around the world has only affirmed my convictions.
Finally, someone that thinks along the lines as I do. Well, two down, too many to go.
Soyo
05-06-2004, 11:15 PM
you say lack of faith is why miracles do not happen? to me that doesn't seem like a legitimate cause for miracles not happening.. there are plenty of people with faith in god. several are friends of mine. nothing really miraculous has happened to them.. good things happen to them, because they are good people, but no miracles that I have seen.
no I didn't say that you have to have faith for miracles to happen to you... I said a lack of faith makes you see things as luck or chance other than being a miracle
no I didn't say that you have to have faith for miracles to happen to you... I said a lack of faith makes you see things as luck or chance other than being a miracle
Soyo
05-06-2004, 11:21 PM
See my above post, my common sense eluded me there for a second. What I was getting at is the idea that Noah would have had no method for finding 2 of every animal in the world. He would have absolutely no way of knowing of all of the species in the world, nonetheless being physically capable of getting them all into his big fat boat.
ofcourse he couldn't know all the animals or collect them all by himself... thats where God coms in... I wouldn't think I'd have to tell you that, its kind of implied
ofcourse he couldn't know all the animals or collect them all by himself... thats where God coms in... I wouldn't think I'd have to tell you that, its kind of implied
Soyo
05-06-2004, 11:30 PM
I know that there is no god of any kind looking after any of us. We neither owe our existance to any god nor will receive any devine reward for our religious beliefs.
oh you KNOW this do you? can you prove it? have you been dead and seen what happens after you die?
NEVER say you KNOW something that is impossible for anyone to know... you DO NOT KNOW
oh you KNOW this do you? can you prove it? have you been dead and seen what happens after you die?
NEVER say you KNOW something that is impossible for anyone to know... you DO NOT KNOW
Prelewd
05-07-2004, 01:06 AM
ofcourse he couldn't know all the animals or collect them all by himself... thats where God coms in... I wouldn't think I'd have to tell you that, its kind of implied
you can't just assume that implications fill in all the blanks here.
proof against it:
-there's no once place in the world right now where all animals live.
-you guys said before that animals act on instinct, therefore, a lion would act on instinct and kill the gazelle and eat it. or did they all have seperate floors on the miraculous yacht?
you can't just assume that implications fill in all the blanks here.
proof against it:
-there's no once place in the world right now where all animals live.
-you guys said before that animals act on instinct, therefore, a lion would act on instinct and kill the gazelle and eat it. or did they all have seperate floors on the miraculous yacht?
Joseph1082
05-07-2004, 01:42 AM
I'd just like to add that it is presumptuous of you to come here and speak of one theory as fiction and YOURS as fact (atheism) at least be reasonabl enough to agree that all potential theories have equal standing.
Prelewd
05-07-2004, 02:13 AM
I'd just like to add that it is presumptuous of you to come here and speak of one theory as fiction and YOURS as fact (atheism) at least be reasonabl enough to agree that all potential theories have equal standing.
not all do though.
also, i'm interested in hearing your rebuttle to the argument about noah's ark.
not all do though.
also, i'm interested in hearing your rebuttle to the argument about noah's ark.
DGB454
05-07-2004, 05:28 AM
This may not answer all your questions but it's a start. The fact is that we don't know all the answers. Some of the reason for this is that most archiologist and scientist spend more time and money trying to disprove creationist theories and prove athiest theories. After all who would be willing to give a grant to someone who was going to do research on the ark? Churches? Most likely not because money can be better utilized doing missionary work and community evangelism. Anyway here is a link.
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c006.html
http://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c006.html
DGB454
05-07-2004, 05:52 AM
Finally, someone that thinks along the lines as I do. Well, two down, too many to go.
Don't tell me you guys are getting into the evangelism buisness too. I thought we cornerd that market. :icon16:
Don't tell me you guys are getting into the evangelism buisness too. I thought we cornerd that market. :icon16:
Joseph1082
05-07-2004, 12:07 PM
Prelewd, this thread has turnd into several little debates going on between different parties... a lot of the new comers have not even bothered to read the wealth of information from the earlier parts of this thread. If you'll recall I have consistently not used to bible in my argument, I'm a man of science and by so have used science and resoning and philosophy to justify my beliefs, which is exactly the reason I hold them, to me God is the best explaination for the universe at this time. As to Noah's ark, I think that this is an unimportant part of the thread, it's not really affected or answering the question at hand.
If you belive in God then God's power is INFINITE... this I have said many times, so it is a moot point to argue over the ark, if there is an infinite God then this event in all its circumstances would not be beyond his power in the slightest... example, "lion's instinct" well, I think if God created the universe he can most likely have the power to make the lion NOT eat the Gazelle for 40 days.
I also said in another post, "where you there?" It is also presumptuous for people to sate AS FACTS these things, whether us pro-Gods or you guys, because know of us were there nor have any concrete evidence of one theory or the other.
If you belive in God then God's power is INFINITE... this I have said many times, so it is a moot point to argue over the ark, if there is an infinite God then this event in all its circumstances would not be beyond his power in the slightest... example, "lion's instinct" well, I think if God created the universe he can most likely have the power to make the lion NOT eat the Gazelle for 40 days.
I also said in another post, "where you there?" It is also presumptuous for people to sate AS FACTS these things, whether us pro-Gods or you guys, because know of us were there nor have any concrete evidence of one theory or the other.
Prelewd
05-07-2004, 04:53 PM
Prelewd, this thread has turnd into several little debates going on between different parties... a lot of the new comers have not even bothered to read the wealth of information from the earlier parts of this thread. If you'll recall I have consistently not used to bible in my argument, I'm a man of science and by so have used science and resoning and philosophy to justify my beliefs, which is exactly the reason I hold them, to me God is the best explaination for the universe at this time. As to Noah's ark, I think that this is an unimportant part of the thread, it's not really affected or answering the question at hand.
If you belive in God then God's power is INFINITE... this I have said many times, so it is a moot point to argue over the ark, if there is an infinite God then this event in all its circumstances would not be beyond his power in the slightest... example, "lion's instinct" well, I think if God created the universe he can most likely have the power to make the lion NOT eat the Gazelle for 40 days.
I also said in another post, "where you there?" It is also presumptuous for people to sate AS FACTS these things, whether us pro-Gods or you guys, because know of us were there nor have any concrete evidence of one theory or the other.
those little debates usher along the greater debate and, in this case, examine the credibility of the single largest piece of evidence you and yours have (the bible). i appreciate you for trying to leave that out of it, and look at it purely by science, but when others quote out of it, it brings it to the forefront.
god cannot take the lion's instinct for the reason so many pro-godders stated earlier.. free will.
were you there? good point.. a point that disproves both sides.. once again, nobody can prove either side as i said at the beginning of this debate:
You can't prove anything, I can't prove anything.. What's the use in trying?
If you belive in God then God's power is INFINITE... this I have said many times, so it is a moot point to argue over the ark, if there is an infinite God then this event in all its circumstances would not be beyond his power in the slightest... example, "lion's instinct" well, I think if God created the universe he can most likely have the power to make the lion NOT eat the Gazelle for 40 days.
I also said in another post, "where you there?" It is also presumptuous for people to sate AS FACTS these things, whether us pro-Gods or you guys, because know of us were there nor have any concrete evidence of one theory or the other.
those little debates usher along the greater debate and, in this case, examine the credibility of the single largest piece of evidence you and yours have (the bible). i appreciate you for trying to leave that out of it, and look at it purely by science, but when others quote out of it, it brings it to the forefront.
god cannot take the lion's instinct for the reason so many pro-godders stated earlier.. free will.
were you there? good point.. a point that disproves both sides.. once again, nobody can prove either side as i said at the beginning of this debate:
You can't prove anything, I can't prove anything.. What's the use in trying?
Boss San
05-07-2004, 05:08 PM
oh you KNOW this do you? can you prove it? have you been dead and seen what happens after you die?
NEVER say you KNOW something that is impossible for anyone to know... you DO NOT KNOW
Let me ask you a question Soyo. Do you know? Have you been dead before? It's the same answer as you stated. You don't know either. :screwy:
NEVER say you KNOW something that is impossible for anyone to know... you DO NOT KNOW
Let me ask you a question Soyo. Do you know? Have you been dead before? It's the same answer as you stated. You don't know either. :screwy:
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