Timing Off on Windstar, Where are Timing Marks?

(http://youtu.be/01T1R2Aecdg)

When your friend listened with the stethoscope did he listen to the engine lower end from under the vehicle against the oil pan??? IN my opiniion the more I listen to the video the more it sounds like a bad rod bearing to me. (Hopefully I am wrong).

I was guessing bent lifter, since it runs. I had a car throw a rod once.

Nope, he did it from above, the steth has a long piece of metal, a tine, and he listened, but not from below. Above, and each fuel injector.

It still made the noise. We also rotated the camshaft sensor yesterday, and no difference.

It stalls on deceleration. What does that mean? Does that follow with the rod and lifter, or not?

......

That enuff, or do you need more?

I did switch out two spark plug wires, and that caused the engine not to start. So, I do not know.......

No, no more please! Overwhelming! Is this the beginning of a book? What city, state is this all taking place in? ..... just want to make sure I don't drive thru that area unwittingly on vacation or something!

Back to the engine: So it is a 3.8 .... good! You are not a dumbass, we all could use more knowledge.

So the anti-freeze went into the fuel .... that's not so bad. I was afraid he had put it into the crankcase .... much worse!

Just as a first step, let us first focus on getting the plug cables correct. You have already removed the windschield cowling, correct? ?? ??

Next, remove all the cables. Yes! Remove all the cables, both ends .... lay them aside. If this is too scary .... we can't make any progress. Let me know when this is completed.

(But please, put the kerosene away!)

No, no more please! Overwhelming! Is this the beginning of a book? What city, state is this all taking place in? ..... just want to make sure I don't drive thru that area unwittingly on vacation or something!

New Mexico. LOL, your reply is so funny. I did post all of it, so people would stop asking me. I am getting sick of having to re-explain to people what happened and why. I'm not paranoid, just like the guy (Jim Parsons) on Big Bang Theory, I did ask someone who was qualified to answer if I was, person stated no, cuz it actually is happening to you, so no!


Back to the engine: So it is a 3.8 .... good! You are not a dumbass, we all could use more knowledge.

Wow, you are an awesome person. Most people judge unmercifully. Thank you for treating me like something better than doggy filth!

I did not know it'd be worse in the crankcase. I had to fix a leaking head gasket, or my step-kid did, once. It let out a lot of white smoke, but didn't damage the engine. Okay!


So the anti-freeze went into the fuel .... that's not so bad. I was afraid he had put it into the crankcase .... much worse!

Just as a first step, let us first focus on getting the plug cables correct. You have already removed the windschield cowling, correct? ?? ??

Next, remove all the cables. Yes! Remove all the cables, both ends .... lay them aside. If this is too scary .... we can't make any progress. Let me know when this is completed.

(But please, put the kerosene away!)

Okay. It seems to have worked, the seafoam. The noise is less, and then it makes a sssh sound, and it goes down. IT also is idling at 1000 rpms, and does not vary at all. No skips, hesitations, drops or anything.

the cowling is on. I can take it off. There is a storm coming in, and the winds are over 35 mph, so I'll take off the spark plug wires, then report back! Gimme a little bit!

K. We will stay posted. Don't get blown away!

So we are talking about a 3.8L.......no there is nothing wrong with you except that you are not an expert on this vehicle.......which is why you are here asking for help.
I also came here because I did not know much about my vehicle......and just try to help others as I have been helped by my internet searches and my own bumbling around.
I'm not a mechanic by trade, and I started working on my own vehicles again because I got tired of "experts" messing it up.

The good news is that, as I mentioned before, there are far more 3.8L engines in Windstars over the years than 3.0L, so there is more information for the 3.8L.

The Autozone information that they offer for FREE is a short version of what you can get with a subscription on AlldataDIY (also owned by Autozone).
Alldata is well worth getting a subscription to (I have a subscription).
Alldata includes Recall and Technical Service Bulletins (TSB) and is updated as new information comes out from FORD.

When you pull the spark plug cables off......take your time......
Grasp the boot....the fatter part at the end......not the thinner part of the cable.....and twist the boot on the spark plug....
This is turning (not pulling) to break the seal that will have taken place between the rubber boot and the ceramic body of the spark plug.
THEN, once you have broken that bond......pull the boot off the spark plug.
It is easy to damage spark plug wires.
It is also very easy to switch & plug the wires into the wrong plugs (I have experience with that).
If the spark plug wires are not pretty new, this would be a good time to install new ones.

Hi friends If this wwindstar is having a knock sensor. This sound may be because of the bad knock sensor. azharj

Hi friends If this wwindstar is having a knock sensor. This sound may be because of the bad knock sensor. azharj


azharj, here is a link with a description of the function of a knock sensor.

http://www.cartechautoparts.com/engine-knock-sensor/

Okay, took it to the mechanic. He looked weird when I returned, and my mother/crazy female relative also keeps insisting we look for a car for $600. I told her, there are none, and she has psychotic episodes, then screams we are lying and conspiring...you get the picture.

The mechanic said something easy was loose in cylinder one, then claimed we had to do the leckemby procedure. I pointed out to everyone, including mother, it did not throw codes. Then, right after we leave, the mechanic says something will happen today. And lo and behold, it acts up again, and throws a code today.

When I arrive at autozone, the kid, friendly this time, who gave me the outrageous prices peviously over the phone for the sensors, is there, with the code reader already out, and it reads p301, 0171, and 0174. When we are driving, something sounds like it is rattling around, literally like a bolt or something, in the engine-I can hear it track itself around, like it is loose.

So, I am not claim anything happened, but hey, what would you say?

It had a cel all the time. All the time, just today, and right afterward when we started it up.

Weird hunh? But, now I have to get the parts.

2 other things happened-crazy drug addict neighbor waited for us afterward we left the mechanic's, and was waiting for us at the police station, and then I flipped him off, he ran like a coward.

Then, today I get followed by the ex-head of the local witches, whose lover we had gotten into a fight with, and I turned into the state, and the state shut down her practice. Interesting eh? I also finally made some progress with everything else we were working on too. I also was invited to do Krav Maga at a local church, where the drug addict attends. I checked, and the schedule is vastly different from the ones I was told it had, and it is supposedly free. I don't really wanna go to no-pad kickboxing with people who do not like me, in off hours when no class is scheduled, but it did sound interesting. Even if it is covered by the church's insurance too (I was told not to worry).

Thot this happened last year, too. About the free classes. They are tied into a local guy, named Robb Hamic, who named a book after a comment I used to make all the time on the internet (not intentionally by him, just another coincidence).

So, anyway, can you buy the isolator bolts at autozone?

I did talk to my neighbor, and he was cleaning the heads etc on a 4-bolt v-8. He was weirded out by the entire thing, too-said something loose in cylinder 1 (on my car), they ought to clean it. The cylinders and pistons on his engine were beautiful. I'll get him to read the codes too. They don't seem to clear even when I turn off the battery for a little bit.

Isolator bolts at autozone.:http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Victor-Reinz-Intake-Manifold-Bolt/_/N-8ij0r?itemIdentifier=139304&_requestid=3135473

You can look this all up yourself on the internet,
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/home.oap?s_kwcid=TC|12984|www%20OReillys%20com||S| e|7485978281&gclid=CIyNzMTvvqsCFc7JKgodKgl5fg

http://www.napaonline.com/

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/

You need to find the source of miss in clyinder no 1 before getting any parts so you only need to make 1 trip. I believe that when you remove the rear valve cover you will find the problem.

Autozone also has the valve cover kit.

The codes can be cleared with the code reader.....however, at many auto part stores, they are not supposed to do that.
In the absence of a code reader....disconnecting the battery for about 5 minutes should do it....HOWEVER, it is best to have the headlights on to drain down any charge that is still in the electrical system.
I choose headlights because they are a large current draw that stays on with the ignition OFF.

A condition that causes a P0301 (misfire detected on Cylinder #1) 'should' cause the CEL to flash while the failure is happening.
A flashing CEL is an indication of a problem that can damage the catalytic converter if the vehicle is contiued to be run.
Then after the problem is not happening for a short time, the CEL will stop flashing....and just stay on steady, indicating that there is a stored code(s).

A misfire could cause unburned gasoline to be passed on into the exhaust, which would be something that could damage the catalytic converter.
The computer does not know what caused the misfire.....It could be lack of spark, lack of fuel, too much air.......not enough air......
Of course, lack of fuel will not cause damage to the catalytic converter.

P0171 and P0174 are indications of too lean of a condition in both banks (1 code is for front bank, the other is for the rear bank). Same failure, but on both of the banks.
Too lean means that the air to fuel ratio has too much air for the fuel present......or too little fuel for the air present......same issue......2 opposite possible causes.
The most common is too much air (vaccum leak).
To more clearly define what a vaccum leak really is in this context.
On the air filter tube, there is a air flow sensor, aka MAF.
This device tells the computer how much air is entering the engine.
ANY air that enters the intake between the MAF and the cylinder is what we are calling a vaccum leak.
The computer does not know about that air......it only knows about the air that passed through the MAF on the motor side of the air filter.
The air that enters the intake through the PCV valve (Front valve cover on 1999 and newer) is replaced by air that flows into the rear valve cover (1999 and newer) through a small hose that goes to the big flex hose that goes from the throttle body to the MAF/Air filter box.
Since this air has passed through the MAF, the computer knows about it.

A dirty fuel injector can cause all 3 of the codes that you are getting.....lack of fuel on 1 cylinder and the computer (PCM) is trying to compensate for it.
Of course, there are LOTS of other possible causes.....the source of your noise could be related to the codes as well.

If you are still wondering about the valvetrain......removal of the valve cover(s) would be the way to check that......then, if you cannot see the problem......having someone crank the engine while you CAREFULLY watch the rocker arms might be a good course of action.

Searles, in the EGRValves Dirty thread you stated in post No, 5 that the isolator bolts are green, This being said I would also look for a vacuum leak along with removing rear valve cover and checking valve train as wiswind suggests before removing upper plenium again.

Does it look like the front cover is the revised cover from the kit???

The codes can be cleared with the code reader.....however, at many auto part stores, they are not supposed to do that.
In the absence of a code reader....disconnecting the battery for about 5 minutes should do it....HOWEVER, it is best to have the headlights on to drain down any charge that is still in the electrical system.
I choose headlights because they are a large current draw that stays on with the ignition OFF.

A condition that causes a P0301 (misfire detected on Cylinder #1) 'should' cause the CEL to flash while the failure is happening.
A flashing CEL is an indication of a problem that can damage the catalytic converter if the vehicle is contiued to be run.
Then after the problem is not happening for a short time, the CEL will stop flashing....and just stay on steady, indicating that there is a stored code(s).

Well, here's the thing. The mechanic stated it was the leckemby procedure, and then also something about the "intake manifold runner control", claimed that meant the clamshell plenum, it was bad.

I checked the tsb and references to it, including prior posts to this forum by 12 oz. and by you, and that would seem to mean the leckemby procedure, and also the imrc refers to some to a runner control both of you have been upset with in the past. Today, I watched it, and the IMRC moved, and made some sort of funny noise, like it had never been moved before, and refused to move back. The comments were that it meant the runner control device was broken, which it seems to be. It is supposed to move back and forth, when the car is started up, and it did not..

I could move it, however it refused to move on its own. But, I was using a different computer, and the part numbers were saved to a docx file, so I will have to go back. But, in the prior posts made by you and 12 oz, it said it would have to therefore be replaced.

It's on the left hand side of the engine, and has a dorman replacement part number. It opens and closes, mien does not move really, it just sits there.

Does this sound familiar?

Another junky Ford electronic part.

azharj, here is a link with a description of the function of a knock sensor.

http://www.cartechautoparts.com/engine-knock-sensor/


Would he be right?

The IMRC on 1999 and newer is electrically driven, 1 actuator drives both banks.
On older Windstars, it was driven by 1 vaccum driven actuator for each bank.
The IMRC on all years is in the LOWER intake manifold.
I do not see this as a cause of your noise that I heard in your video.
What is common on the 1999 and newer IMRC is that the IMRC shafts in each bank get disconnected from the actuator.
There are nylon clips that break, or fall off.
Another issue that I have seen listed 1999 and newer is that the location in the lower intake manifold where the IMR shaft passes through becomes worn, and lets enough air through to trigger the failure codes.
If the IMRC is not working, the best position for them to be in is the CLOSED position.
As this is not likely the source of your noise, I would determine if they are working.....and worry about the noise source first.
They way that they work is that the IMR will be closed below a certain RPM and only open under certain higher RPM conditions.
Do NOT race your engine to try to determine if they are working.
12ounce would be better than I to help you determine which is the closed position and if they are working, as I had the old version.
The old version had strong springs that held them open and then the vaccum was applied when you started the engine....pulling them closed.....so it was easy to determine if they were working.
However, this may not apply for the newer (1999 and newer).



Knock sensor.
The issue relative you your vehicle on this is that the knock sensor could be picking up that sound you have and the computer could be delaying the timing.
THIS is also not a likely source of your noise, so I would not worry about it right now.

Isolator bolts at autozone.:http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Victor-Reinz-Intake-Manifold-Bolt/_/N-8ij0r?itemIdentifier=139304&_requestid=3135473

You can look this all up yourself on the internet,
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/home.oap?s_kwcid=TC|12984|www%20OReillys%20com||S| e|7485978281&gclid=CIyNzMTvvqsCFc7JKgodKgl5fg (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/home.oap?s_kwcid=TC%7C12984%7Cwww%20OReillys%20com %7C%7CS%7Ce%7C7485978281&gclid=CIyNzMTvvqsCFc7JKgodKgl5fg)

http://www.napaonline.com/

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/

You need to find the source of miss in clyinder no 1 before getting any parts so you only need to make 1 trip. I believe that when you remove the rear valve cover you will find the problem.

Autozone also has the valve cover kit.

Autozone claims they have never heard of the IMRC, no listing for it. I checked earlier and it wasl sited at $107. I cannot find it now.

ford part number is XF229559AA,

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/CatalogResults.aspx?y=2000&m=Ford&mo=Windstar#Search

link above says "callout#9j559". That did not help at all.

I think it is the mirc, as it is not working. Whenever I have unhooked the battery, and leave it off for an hour, when it comes back on it runs fine-noise, but that is it. Then, it coded yesterday.

Why do you think it is still the valve cover? I checked the front one, valve displacement was perfect 120-130-120 across the rear.

wiswind had a post here about the imrc, which is broken

http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic398539.htm

Or not working. It is hard to move, makes a squeal, then turns only once when started, never moves back.

Why would disconnecting the battery improve it so much?

I need to buy parts. Does anyone know where I can find on autozone the dang imrc for the ford 2000 windstar?

The IMRC on 1999 and newer is electrically driven, 1 actuator drives both banks.
On older Windstars, it was driven by 1 vaccum driven actuator for each bank.
The IMRC on all years is in the LOWER intake manifold.
I do not see this as a cause of your noise that I heard in your video.
What is common on the 1999 and newer IMRC is that the IMRC shafts in each bank get disconnected from the actuator.
There are nylon clips that break, or fall off.
Another issue that I have seen listed 1999 and newer is that the location in the lower intake manifold where the IMR shaft passes through becomes worn, and lets enough air through to trigger the failure codes.
If the IMRC is not working, the best position for them to be in is the CLOSED position.
As this is not likely the source of your noise, I would determine if they are working.....and worry about the noise source first.
They way that they work is that the IMR will be closed below a certain RPM and only open under certain higher RPM conditions.
Do NOT race your engine to try to determine if they are working.
12ounce would be better than I to help you determine which is the closed position and if they are working, as I had the old version.
The old version had strong springs that held them open and then the vaccum was applied when you started the engine....pulling them closed.....so it was easy to determine if they were working.
However, this may not apply for the newer (1999 and newer).



Knock sensor.
The issue relative you your vehicle on this is that the knock sensor could be picking up that sound you have and the computer could be delaying the timing.
THIS is also not a likely source of your noise, so I would not worry about it right now.

Well, then what is left? Just the isolator bolt problem, right?

Well, then what is left? Just the isolator bolt problem, right?

In the EGR Valves Dirty thread you had post number 5 stated that the isolator bolts are green, so I assime that the upgrade has been done. The P0171/174 code means a lean condition to both banks. A vacuum leak can cause this, Use a smoke test to look for leaks.

Video on smoke test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMok2y05jNE&list=UUuxpxCCevIlF-k-K5YU8XPA&index=30&feature=plcp

Regarding the intake manifold runner control, the only place I found the part was on the Ford site. Call your local ford dealer for availablility. One from the salavage yard would probably be your best bet.

Regarding the rear valve cover. Like I stated in a earlier post that the compression test were good does not mean the valves are opening the way they should be. The only way that you are going to be sure they open and close properly is to watch with the cover off. Until you inspect the rear valve train you will not know if the noise is coming from there or not. I believe this should have been inspected long ago as you have a no. 1 misfire. Until you verify you are quessing at the problem and wasting money by throwing parts at the vehicle. You need to find the miss cause, then check for vacuum leak.

Evertime you disconnect the battery cable the codes are erased, thus the computor goes back to its basic faults and needs to learn the drive habits again.

Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge on the engine?? Here is a video about the matter \:

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfixesrealfast.com/Diagnostics/Pages/Vac_Test_01.html

In the EGR Valves Dirty thread you had post number 5 stated that the isolator bolts are green, so I assime that the upgrade has been done.

Me too. But, I found from reaqding on the internet, these usually break more than once, too. So does the IMRC. It was listed on autozone and other sites, until today when I made the decision to look for it.

I need to make out a list of parts, I'm thinking the imrc retaining bushings, isolator bolts.

Any other suggestions?


The P0171/174 code means a lean condition to both banks. A vacuum leak can cause this, Use a smoke test to look for leaks.


Video on smoke test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMok2y05jNE&list=UUuxpxCCevIlF-k-K5YU8XPA&index=30&feature=plcp

Can you buy canned smoke? I am quite literally deathly allergic to tobacco smoke. Not the plant, but only the smoke.


Regarding the intake manifold runner control, the only place I found the part was on the Ford site. Call your local ford dealer for availablility. One from the salavage yard would probably be your best bet.

Okay, the wong chung site said every ford v6 has to have this replaced-wouldn't that mean 100% chance of a bad one? Is there no place else to buy used parts for such a necessary thing?



Regarding the rear valve cover. Like I stated in a earlier post that the compression test were good does not mean the valves are opening the way they should be. The only way that you are going to be sure they open and close properly is to watch with the cover off. Until you inspect the rear valve train you will not know if the noise is coming from there or not. I believe this should have been inspected long ago as you have a no. 1 misfire. Until you verify you are quessing at the problem and wasting money by throwing parts at the vehicle. You need to find the miss cause, then check for vacuum leak.

Evertime you disconnect the battery cable the codes are erased, thus the computor goes back to its basic faults and needs to learn the drive habits again.

Okay. Tomorrow someone is running to ABQ, and can pick me up parts. I was going to do all the fixes physically tomorrow, like re-check the driver's window regulator, replace the passenger lock actuator, re-set the left door hinge forward, then move the rear left window forward too, since I drilled holes to move it backward after the door hinge didn't line up.

Sunday I can work on removing everything to get to the rear valve. Do you want me to make a video like last time?

I really appreciate this, you guys helping out. I am just really frustrated.


Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge on the engine?? Here is a video about the matter \:

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfixesrealfast.com/Diagnostics/Pages/Vac_Test_01.html

No, not at all. compression, not this. I don't understand where you hook the gauge up to-any open hose? Anywhere?

I figure once the plenum is off, I can check the fuel rail and fuel injectors too. I suspect they are clogged.

I read that you can check if the IMRC is working by watching the actuator for movement when yu have someone start the engine while yoou are observing. IF it moves it is good and no movement check wiring andor rplace IMRC. (If you are not getting codes for the IRMC it should be working. Codes would be P1537 and P1538)

Personally I would remove the cowl and then remove the valve cover to inspect the valve train before removing the upper plenium. Solving the misfire code and noise should be the first thing on the list to do. It is a possiblity that fixing the misfire could remedey your other codes.

No you can not get smoke in a can for testing to my knowledge, You may need to have a mechanic do a smoke test with a smoke machine or see if you can rent one some place.

Have you checked the line going to the PCV Valve for any cracks or being loose as this will cause a vacuum leak that can cause the lean codes also.


Do you know if the front valve cover has been upgrades or is it the original cover?? Re read the isolator bolt instruction for the inspection of the PCV opening in the valve cover for the determination of the old or upgraded valve cover.

I realize your availablility of getting parts when needed is difficult but just getting parts without knowing what the problems are can be costly.

You may want to get a new PCV line if you think it is needed and a new valve cover gasket for the back cover if you believe you need it as I am not sure if they are reusable or not. If you are going to remove the injectors you will need new o-rings.

I strongly recommend removing the valve cover and inspecting the valve train before getting parts. You should be able to remove the cowl then the valve cover and go from there. Could you get this done before they go to get parts??? This would give you a better idea as what parts to get. I would think it would not take more than a hour to do this.

If you want to make a video fine if not that is OK also.

If the IMRC is not working, you could fasten them closed until you get the other issue solved (the noise).
I don't have any experience with the 1999 and newer.
One thing that can happen with the newer ones, from what I have read, is that when they become disconnected from the actuator (the part that moves them open/closed) you can end up with 1 open and 1 closed.
Also, with them open at low idle speed, you can have issues.

I'm trying to save you money and time by keeping things focused upon the source of the noise FIRST.
If someone can offer help on the newer, electrical driven IMRC, that would be great.
I know that the old version has springs that hold them OPEN in the absense of a vaccum, however, I do not know that this is the case on the 1999 and newer that does NOT use vaccum to hold them closed.

My advice on IMRC at this point....
If the IMRC is working, then move on to the next issue.
If it is not working....fasten it closed and save that issue for another day....when more pressing problems have been solved.
The engine will run just fine with them staying closed....you just don't have that boost of power when passing.

If the IMRC is not working, you could fasten them closed until you get the other issue solved (the noise).
I don't have any experience with the 1999 and newer.
One thing that can happen with the newer ones, from what I have read, is that when they become disconnected from the actuator (the part that moves them open/closed) you can end up with 1 open and 1 closed.
Also, with them open at low idle speed, you can have issues.

I'm trying to save you money and time by keeping things focused upon the source of the noise FIRST.
If someone can offer help on the newer, electrical driven IMRC, that would be great.
I know that the old version has springs that hold them OPEN in the absense of a vaccum, however, I do not know that this is the case on the 1999 and newer that does NOT use vaccum to hold them closed.

My advice on IMRC at this point....
If the IMRC is working, then move on to the next issue.
If it is not working....fasten it closed and save that issue for another day....when more pressing problems have been solved.
The engine will run just fine with them staying closed....you just don't have that boost of power when passing.

I agree, solve NOISE issue first.

FYI:

I once had an exhaust valve that did not open, the vehicle had low power, a misfire, and made popping sounds at the intake. The vacuum reading fluctuated with the pops (less vacuum). The cause was a missing lobe on the camshaft, which was the result of inadequate lubrication, which was caused by tar deposits inside the engine.

Once I decided to start tearing into the engine it took less than a day to find the cause, and only because I proceeded carefully and methodically. It was clear when cranking the engine (with the plugs out) because the valve never moved.

FYI:

I once had an exhaust valve that did not open, the vehicle had low power, a misfire, and made popping sounds at the intake. The vacuum reading fluctuated with the pops (less vacuum). The cause was a missing lobe on the camshaft, which was the result of inadequate lubrication, which was caused by tar deposits inside the engine.

Once I decided to start tearing into the engine it took less than a day to find the cause, and only because I proceeded carefully and methodically. It was clear when cranking the engine (with the plugs out) because the valve never moved.

thanks tom, this is why I keep on saying to remove the rear valve cover to check the valve train.

I forgot to make it clear that the valve covers were removed when I was cranking the engine, so I could see if they were moving.

It's worth mentioning that I threw money at it for a while trying to make sure it wasn't something external (i.e. plugs, wires, PCV, O2 sensor...)

I would disable the fuel pump or fuel injectors to keep the engine from starting.....
THEN have 1 person crank the engine in, say 5 second spurts, while a 2nd person, using a flashlight.....views the rocker arm action to see if it is pushing each valve down.

Sunday-Update

I was supposed to get the parts for the van on Sunday, and finish fixinf it. I had to cal ltwice to a place ,and they had them. I guess my mother decided to thwart me, and made up a story that they did not, then started a screaming fight accusing me of everything on earth, and then backed up and admitted she was lying and wrong. I knew she was crazy already. But she set it up a week in advance so I would think she was planning on fixing the car, and then even got my neighbor's wife to get my neighbor to mess with me. He gave me a broken liftjack, it collapsed onto the jackstands while I was attempting to put on the exhaust hanger, and I was unable to fix the exhaust hanger. He also told me to use vaseline to grease it, but as it's rubber, that would cause it to fail.

She then told me to order the parts. She said to use her credit card, and it would take 5 days. She refused to give it to me tho, and then called today. If I order the parts now, they will not be herre by this weekend-second thwarting by her. I will get blamed for it either way. Autozone's site and one guy I spoke to both said they had them.

The IMRC is jammed. My gas mileage varies from 5-7 miles to ten-12, it used to be over 20, or 20 in town.

Cutting off the hanger reduced the noise quite a bit. I think that, plus the IMRC and it's bad bearings might be causing all of the problem. the runner part of the IMRC name does not refer to runners whereby the intake clamshell fit into each other (as angry Ed, the mechanic told me), it refers to long metal rods which turn the butterfly valves, and that failing might have helped caused the burned anti-freeze stuff to build up so badly on the egr metering ports and the intake plenum.

So, right now no progress. But thansk to everyone here for helping out, even if the suggestion does not work. I know from experience with health problems cars are about the same-keep trying until you hit the right answer/cure. You all contributed to that and I am very grateful for that help, even if it did not result in a fix!

NO 1---Never ever depend on a jack to hold the vehicle up always install jackstands under the vehicle and put the vehicle pressure on the jack stands not on the jack itself.

No 2-- Why not do as wiswind suggested for now and tie both runner controls open (( both runner controls levers should be away from the center of the engine to be open) this video will help you understand this.

http://realfixesrealfast.com/realfixesrealfast.com/Codes/Pages/Windstar_MIRC_Codes.html

No 3-- A exhaust hanger does not have anything to do with the performance of a engine, all it does is hold the exhaust in place.

No 4-- WHY are you so dead against removing the cowl and rear valve cover to inspect the valve train. You may very well do all the other work and find that it is a valve train problem and you will again be waiting for parts to fix that situation. By doing this you will have at least dtermined if it is the problem or not. You can still do the isolator bolts and such once you have the noise is fixed.
If I remember correctly you have already replaced spark plugs, cleaned the egr ports. removed the front valve cover and replaced the coil.

Did you ever do like 12ouce suggested and remove all the spark plug wires and make sure they are installed correctly????????????????

There are several members trying to help you but you do not seem to want to follow the suggestions.

A bad valve train will cause the mileage drop like you suggest but more than that the unburned gas will destroy the catalytic convertor. ($1200.00 to replace without labor.)

Have you done a vacuum test with a gauge yeet????? Read this link:

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm (http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm)

Setting the IMR runners (the shaft through each bank in the lower intake manifold that has the "butterfly" plates on them) will IMPROVE your gasoline mileage.
Of course, as you know, it will not fix any other problems, but it will fix that one......and not cost you money to do it.
I look at having the IMRC working (opening the extra port for each cylinder) as a luxury....not a necessity.
However, having them open ALL the time will be bad for fuel economy and smooth running at low RPM.
Having 1 bank closed and 1 bank open will cause an imballance between the 2 banks of cylinders and have your PCM going crazy trying to compensate for that.
Having thel fastened CLOSED will improve fuel economy and not cause rough running........all you loose is some horsepower at high RPMs.
Having them fastened CLOSED solves the problem and lets you focus on real problems.
If they are connected, and working correctly, then that is no concern.


For most of my work....I use ramps and set the parking brake, gear select in PARK and block the wheels that are on the ground, all to prevent the vehicle from moving.

I read that you can check if the IMRC is working by watching the actuator for movement when yu have someone start the engine while yoou are observing. IF it moves it is good and no movement check wiring andor rplace IMRC. (If you are not getting codes for the IRMC it should be working. Codes would be P1537 and P1538)


My car was not coding for most of this.

At the bottom site, guy gives some info, like the 100% failure rate for ford v6's they all get this problem.
http://sites.google.com/site/fordf150p0171p0174fix/P0171P0174-Fix


Personally I would remove the cowl and then remove the valve cover to inspect the valve train before removing the upper plenium. Solving the misfire code and noise should be the first thing on the list to do. It is a possiblity that fixing the misfire could remedey your other codes.

Have you checked the line going to the PCV Valve for any cracks or being loose as this will cause a vacuum leak that can cause the lean codes also.


Do you know if the front valve cover has been upgrades or is it the original cover?? Re read the isolator bolt instruction for the inspection of the PCV opening in the valve cover for the determination of the old or upgraded valve cover.

I realize your availablility of getting parts when needed is difficult but just getting parts without knowing what the problems are can be costly.

You may want to get a new PCV line if you think it is needed and a new valve cover gasket for the back cover if you believe you need it as I am not sure if they are reusable or not. If you are going to remove the injectors you will need new o-rings.

I strongly recommend removing the valve cover and inspecting the valve train before getting parts. You should be able to remove the cowl then the valve cover and go from there. Could you get this done before they go to get parts??? This would give you a better idea as what parts to get. I would think it would not take more than a hour to do this.

If you want to make a video fine if not that is OK also.

PCV is fine. A friend suggested using water with dishwashing liquid instead, I remember that trick now, will do it.

I would like the intake manifold runner control ford part number for this year, regardless. I did the trick, I tried moving the two rods, they squealed like rusty hinges, the other hardly moved at all. They moved when I started the car, did not move back afterwards. The guy I spoke with a the parts store stated that alone could be causing the problems with it accelerating ,etc. We checked for codes, nothing.

This weekend I will fix the car. I will find a way to soak the exhaust hanger, and put it on, then the plenum isolator bolts and the seals, and see if the egr metering ports need to be cleaned. Then, will replace the bushings since they are bad anyway, and attempt to replace the imr.

could someone get me the part number? all the ones online I have found are for the friggin' two piece. I found a scan by someone on here earlier, like 4-6 years ago, with a pic of it, but no part number.

I will also take off the rear valve cover, check the fuel rail, and the fuel injectors.

My mistake wiswind, the imrc would need to be tied towards the center of the intake to be closed.

Here is a link so can look up Ford parts from Ford dealers:

http://www.fordparts.com/Landing/Motorcraft.aspx

Part numbers:

Part NumberPart DescriptionPriceYour PriceAvailabilityQuantity

http://www.fordparts.com/Images/Logos/FordGenuineParts.gif 9J559
Intake Manifold Runner Control Module
3.8L; Also serviced in 9424. Requires 9F955 clip to attach to connecting rod

Seems to me Searles that you have already cleaned the EGR ports correct.

Are you driving the vehicle daily? Is this why you do not want to check the valve train before ordering all the other parts in case you need some for the valve train??? If you by chance do need parts for the valve train you will be waiting again to put back together.

My mistake wiswind, the imrc would need to be tied towards the center of the intake to be closed.

Here is a link so can look up Ford parts from Ford dealers:

http://www.fordparts.com/Landing/Motorcraft.aspx

Part numbers:

Part NumberPart DescriptionPriceYour PriceAvailabilityQuantity

http://www.fordparts.com/Images/Logos/FordGenuineParts.gif 9J559
Intake Manifold Runner Control Module
3.8L; Also serviced in 9424. Requires 9F955 clip to attach to connecting rod

Seems to me Searles that you have already cleaned the EGR ports correct.

Are you driving the vehicle daily? Is this why you do not want to check the valve train before ordering all the other parts in case you need some for the valve train??? If you by chance do need parts for the valve train you will be waiting again to put back together.

Yes. I do not have transportation otherwise, and we had to return home ,and the bus system and everything else here-well, it's a mess.

I was going to do it this past weekend, and was unable. Can I have the f-ckin' part delivered next day to the house, instead of to the dealer?

http://www.automotivehelper.com/topic398539.htm

Quotes part number as: XF229559AA

Called Chalmers Ford in SF, they said part number was:
XF 209J 559-AA

Anyway to bypass the local dealer, given how badly they treated us? We had the neighbor fill out a credit app using our info, a this dealership, took me two years to get them to stop calling. They have messed up the parts before, parts and service have a horrible reputation.

BTW, did a 0174 code this morning.

That's front bank, side of the imrc that will not move unless I use a piece of metal to pry it.

BTW, did a 0174 code this morning.

That's front bank, side of the imrc that will not move unless I use a piece of metal to pry it.

P0174FordFuel System Too Lean (Cylinder Bank 2

P1538FordIntake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open (Bank 2)

Yes you can have shipped directly too your house from dealer next day. Where I am from you are not going to get a part ordered on SUnday(dealers Closed) and no delivery service on Sunday, so you wiould need to order Monday and delevered Tuesday sometime. Your choice just tryiung to help you save time and money.

Has the noise stopped?????

Boy, the Denver people are like nigh and Day with the NM people. No crap, no condescending remarks, nothing.

Got the part.

The IMRC is not working at all. The front rod, despite being attached to the rear on a round part, will not move. What a piece of garbage. I was lied to by a dealership, and by a parts place online. Ford parts at the above site had decent, honest, straightforward people, and they gave decent advice. I have always been grateful for people humble enough to give good directions.

p code 174, front bank. It's the isolator bolts, IMRC malfunctions, and general burned up antifreeze from my landlord's doping it back December 20th. It took me 4 times, an hour to wash it off the back of the car. I had paid before to wash it off, to no avail-like rinsing off vaseline.

I had very good experience in ordering my FORD/Motorcraft parts online through an online dealership parts department.
Sadly, the place that I bought from, Y2K Ford, went out of business.
However, there are other dealerships with online parts...selling at 30-40% below full list.

I thought that I read that you had cleaned the EGR ports already.
It takes some time for the deposits to build back up, so they should still be clean.

For the PCV valve....I would order a NEW Motorcraft brand replacement.
I have seen a number of aftermarket replacements that are pure junk.
The PCV valve is more than just a check valve to keep flow in just 1 direction.
There is a spring inside to reduce the size of the opening under increasing vaccum.
This meters the PCV flow to keep it at a level that is enough at low vaccum levels, and not too much at high vaccum levels.
I know that you see oil in the intake.....it comes in as vapor and condenses.
It is CRITICAL that you have enough flow through the PCV line to clear the engine crankcase of harmful vapors.....combustion byproducts......moisture (and there is a LOT of that in the crankcase) and just vapors from the oil breaking down over time.
Too little PCV flow will cause you to develop sludge and also cause your oil to break down quickely.
If the PCV valve seems loose in the valve cover, buy a new PCV valve grommet.

A site that I like for parts online is RockAuto.
They have some Motorcraft parts and a number of aftermarket parts.
Some parts, you are best served by sticking with FORD/Motorcraft.
Others, like oil filters, etc....you are well served with aftermarket.


IMRC....you mention 1 bank being jammed.
If they are not connected to the actuator, you should be able to move them by hand.
If 1 bank is jammed....you will need to solve that issue.
A new actuator will not solve a jammed shaft in the lower intake.
As I mentioned, I had a '96 that had a different IMRC system......same settup with the shaft with plates in each bank....but the system for moving them was different on the '96 through '98.
If you have a bank jammed closed.....I would fasten the other bank closed and call it a day until you have the luxury of extra time to worry about it.
I expained in another post in this thread why having them closed is just fine.
I am mentioning this again because the electrical acuator on the 1999 and newer will STILL move and give the PCM the correct signal (no codes and CEL to make one fail emissions testing....if you have that in your area) and the ALWAYS CLOSED extra port to each cylinder will help your fuel economy and cause no drivability problems.
The 1995 Winstar with the 3.8L engine did NOT have the IMRC sytem at all.
They boosted the horsepower by 45hp by going to this sytem starting in 1996.


If you have looked at my pictures.....there are many things that are similar and identical between our 2 windstars.
However....the upper intake manifold on your 2000 is VERY different from the one on my '96.
The '96 through '98 used a 1 part upper intake manifold that had the bolts holing in down on the OUTSIDE of the unit.
For this reason, oil inside the intake manifold was not an issue as far as the bolts holding the unit down....as they never were getting exposed to that oil.
Again, I will stress that oil in the intake is a normal thing.......however, the front valve cover was redesigned to REDUCE (stress on reduce as it does NOT eliminate) oil in the intake.

Please take time to check the front valve cover to see if you have the updated one.
If it is not the updated one.......then you can order a NEW one....and I recommend that you do this if you plan to hang onto the vehicle.....and if you are cheap like me......you do.
The issue with too much oil that is caused by the old design front valve cover (can also happen with aftermarket PCV valves) is that the excess oil can cause carbon buildup inside the cylinders......this causes pinging and even knocking......(not the sound in your video).

I do want to stress that SOME oil will be present......that is the nature of the PCV system.
I installed a catch can on my '96, that is shown in my pictures.
Even with the long lines to and from the catch can (sloped down to the catch can)....I STILL got oil in the intake....and leaking out the throttle body.
However, as you can see in my pictures....I still had a VERY clean motor as viewed in the valvetrain pictures....and that was on a 13 year old vehicle with over 229K miles on it.
So it is a trade off as far as PCV and oil.
Even at FULL list price......a Motorcraft PCV valve is not going to break the bank.
(shipping cost could exceed the price of the part).

So.....the newer, 2 part upper intake manifold that is used on 1999 and newer Windstars can have the 2 parts somehow separate and make nasty noise.
ALSO, I have seen posts of issues with the valvetrain.....often not a major expense to solve, that cause 1 valve to not be opening.....which could also be causing your sound.

I would ALSO verify that your spark plug wires are going to the correct places.
This one is a pain in the rear to do, but does not require parts to be bought.
Although, as I mentioned, if the spark plug wires are old....you are best off to replace them as moving 12 year old spark plug wires can cause problems....after all these years of heat cylcles......it would be a routine maintenance item.
I know first hand....from many years ago....that spark plug wires going the wrong places results in a engine making less than ideal sounds.......a very humbling experience that took place a couple of times in my distant past.

Fuel injectors.......if you were to remove the fuel rail/injectors....take note that the area around each fuel injector is a trap for grit.....dirt.....anything else that accumilates over the years.
I would advise that you clean this junk BEFORE pulling UP on the fuel rail and thereby pulling a fuel injector out of the lower intake manifold.
The junk that is sitting there around each fuel injector....is just waiting to drop down into the intake.......where it will then be sitting where you cannot get at it......waiting to be drawin into the cylinders.
I do NOT see the fuel injectors as a cause of the noise that you had in your video.

P0174FordFuel System Too Lean (Cylinder Bank 2

P1538FordIntake Manifold Runner Control Stuck Open (Bank 2)

Yes you can have shipped directly too your house from dealer next day. Where I am from you are not going to get a part ordered on SUnday(dealers Closed) and no delivery service on Sunday, so you wiould need to order Monday and delevered Tuesday sometime. Your choice just tryiung to help you save time and money.

Has the noise stopped?????

I ordered it Thursday nite, and I checked with FEDex-they still have no order out for it, yet the dealership charged my mother's card. I was told specifically by Phil Long I would get it today, when I ordered it Thursday. I have nothing, and they haven't even bothered filling the order yet.

I do not know, at this point, why. According to Phil Long of Denver (Colorado Springs filled the order) there is no record of it at ALL. I don't know if my mother cancelled it, or not. she is intentionally vague, has done that before.

So, essentially I'm sitting here, with a car I can here flapping pieces of metal, and which stops that if the engine is raced over 3k rpm.

Wow, am I disappointed with Ford, either way. Promises pretty much stink. They didn't have any problem taking the money tho. They just did not even attempt to deliver.

I've had problems before with both Chalmer's Ford in SF and Bob Turner's Ford in ABQ, even despite the fact my sister is married to the guy whose uncle used to be the parts and service manager at the second. I was told by both they would have to order it from Denver. I ordered it online at FordParts.com , and was assured that it would be delivered by Today. Nothing, nothing at all.

Most parts places don't give Saturday delivery.
They may have said "by" but it might get to you Monday, or Tuesday if it did not make it yesterday (Friday).
If the order was not placed early in the day on Thursday, it would be unlikely to get it on Friday, unless it was in stock close to you.....it might ship that fast, but to be delivered.....
I have had situations where I ordered from RockAuto in the morning, and the part was waiting for me at my house when I got home in the early afternoon......but the part happened to be stocked in my local area.
That was "standard" delivery....whereas I have had to wait 5 days for "super fast" delivery.....when 2 of those days were Sat & Sunday.
Online records, I have found those to be out of date.....even to the point that they lag by 3 days, I have my part before the system indicates that it shipped.

I do not recommend racing the engine.

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

IMRC....you mention 1 bank being jammed.
If they are not connected to the actuator, you should be able to move them by hand.
If 1 bank is jammed....you will need to solve that issue.
A new actuator will not solve a jammed shaft in the lower intake.
As I mentioned, I had a '96 that had a different IMRC system......same settup with the shaft with plates in each bank....but the system for moving them was different on the '96 through '98.
If you have a bank jammed closed.....I would fasten the other bank closed and call it a day until you have the luxury of extra time to worry about it.

It makes a flapping noise, like a metal paddle, now, but is still giving us problems. I even tried spraying it with PB fluid, the front one only moved with great reluctance after being pried.

I think it is gone. When we drive, it hangs at 3k rpm, and then we floor it for a few seconds, then it will shift, and sound normal. After some time, it is alright. But, it has stalled. Yesterday it gave a 301 and 302. It has bee nfine since.

I get the part tomorrow. It is snowing here now, sheesh.

I planned on taking of the cowling, then the plenum, then the rear valve cover ,then replacing the plenum, and seeing what happens when I start it. I plan on cleaning the flutter valves, with either brake cleaner or carb cleaner. I also plan on taking off the plenum, replacing the bearings for the imrc, and then trying to clean up whatever else is still in there from the anti-freeze. I also plan of taking off the fuel rail, and checking/cleaning it, and with each injector as originally suggested, then letting it dry overnight.

What do you think of all of that? Oh, plus I have the isolator bolts and seals, too.

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

I plan on doing that before starting with everything else, tomorrow. The noise reduced significantly again, when I replaced the exhaust hanger, and it is no longer swinging, the car I mean. I was moving all over, just like with the plymouth, until I added the second hanger yesterday. All stopped. Only noise now, instead of all over, is in the top of the engine, under the plenum.

Wish me luck, and thanks for your suggestions and help!

I have step by step pictures for removal of the cowl......for my '96....so yours will be different...but very similar.
The only note that I will say about the rear valve cover is that it IS a LOT of leaning over and reaching.
If you have back issues or leg issues........make sure to alot PLENTY of time and TAKE BREAKS.
If you do not have back issues or leg issues.......do the same as above or you WILL have them.

Cleaning the IMR plates.....any spray that you spray onto them will run down into the lower intake and be drawn into the cylinders when you start the engine.

Removal of the lower intake is a bit of work....torque specifications for the bolts is critical.....and the lower intake manifold gaskets MUST be replaced if the lower intake manifold is lifted up / removed.
Also, the motor oil and oil filter MUST be changed BEFORE starting the motor as it is not possible to remove the lower intake manifold without draining a significant amount of antifreeze down into the crankcase.
We have not discussed or recommended removal of the lower intake manifold in this thread.....but I am pointing these things out in case you, for some reason get the idea to do that.

Each fuel injector has a "O" ring.
BEFORE you pull up on the fuel rail and pull an injector up.....spray a cleaner, brake cleaner, carb cleaner......to flush away the dirt around each fuel injector.
The area around each fuel injector is a nice dirt/sand collection spot....and that stuff WILL fall down into the intake when you lift the fuel injector UP.......and you don't want that to fall down in there.....very bad for the cylinders.
Also.....before messing with the fuel rail.....take a big rag....and hold it under/in front of the fuel pressure test/release point on the fuel rail.
The pressure release point looks like a tire air valve.......you press the pin in the middle to release the fuel pressure.

Another trick that I did whenever I messed with the fuel rail.
When I put it back into place......injectors are in place.....you are ready to put the upper intake manifold in place.....but BEFORE putting the upper intake manifold in place.....put the key in the ignition and turn it to "RUN" (not start....do NOT crank the engine).
The point of this is to turn on the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system.
THEN.....look over the fuel rail and make sure that there are no leaks.
If you find no leaks....then turn the Key to OFF and remove the key from the ignition and procede to install the upper intake manifold and the rest of the "stuff".

I have step by step pictures for removal of the cowl......for my '96....so yours will be different...but very similar.
The only note that I will say about the rear valve cover is that it IS a LOT of leaning over and reaching.
If you have back issues or leg issues........make sure to alot PLENTY of time and TAKE BREAKS.
If you do not have back issues or leg issues.......do the same as above or you WILL have them.

Cleaning the IMR plates.....any spray that you spray onto them will run down into the lower intake and be drawn into the cylinders when you start the engine.

Removal of the lower intake is a bit of work....torque specifications for the bolts is critical.....and the lower intake manifold gaskets MUST be replaced if the lower intake manifold is lifted up / removed.
Also, the motor oil and oil filter MUST be changed BEFORE starting the motor as it is not possible to remove the lower intake manifold without draining a significant amount of antifreeze down into the crankcase.
We have not discussed or recommended removal of the lower intake manifold in this thread.....but I am pointing these things out in case you, for some reason get the idea to do that.

Each fuel injector has a "O" ring.
BEFORE you pull up on the fuel rail and pull an injector up.....spray a cleaner, brake cleaner, carb cleaner......to flush away the dirt around each fuel injector.
The area around each fuel injector is a nice dirt/sand collection spot....and that stuff WILL fall down into the intake when you lift the fuel injector UP.......and you don't want that to fall down in there.....very bad for the cylinders.
Also.....before messing with the fuel rail.....take a big rag....and hold it under/in front of the fuel pressure test/release point on the fuel rail.
The pressure release point looks like a tire air valve.......you press the pin in the middle to release the fuel pressure.

Another trick that I did whenever I messed with the fuel rail.
When I put it back into place......injectors are in place.....you are ready to put the upper intake manifold in place.....but BEFORE putting the upper intake manifold in place.....put the key in the ignition and turn it to "RUN" (not start....do NOT crank the engine).
The point of this is to turn on the fuel pump and pressurize the fuel system.
THEN.....look over the fuel rail and make sure that there are no leaks.
If you find no leaks....then turn the Key to OFF and remove the key from the ignition and procede to install the upper intake manifold and the rest of the "stuff".


Another trick you could do to relieve the fuel pressure is remove fuel pump fuse or relay and let the vehicle run out of gas.

I also read somewhere NOT TO IMMERSE THE complete injector in any solvent as it will do damage to the electrical part of the injector.

I would advise against removing the lower (metal) intake at this time. Remove the plastic "upper" .... then remove the plastic "spacer" (has the throttle body attached to it) .... and make repairs and reassemble with new bolts. Check results.

I doubt if removing the metal lower is necessary at this point .... and just will add too much to the current work load.

(I'm still betting once the wipers and cowling are removed .... a great discovery is going to be made!!! .... something like crossed cables, leaking cables, leaking ignition pack .... earth shaking stuff!)

I would advise against removing the lower (metal) intake at this time. Remove the plastic "upper" .... then remove the plastic "spacer" (has the throttle body attached to it) .... and make repairs and reassemble with new bolts. Check results.

I doubt if removing the metal lower is necessary at this point .... and just will add too much to the current work load.

(I'm still betting once the wipers and cowling are removed .... a great discovery is going to be made!!! .... something like crossed cables, leaking cables, leaking ignition pack .... earth shaking stuff!)

Okay, that is strange. I have replaced the plugs twice, the wires once, and the coil pack.

I took off the plenum, and the inner baffle was separated and sitting on the engine. Could this be making the noise too? Can I leave it outside?

I used carb cleaner on the butterfly things, one was a little open, #1, due to the buildup. I used 3 cans.

All 4 imrc bushings were bad. The new IMRC went on, with a hitch-we lost a screw, and almost gave up looking for it, before my stepson found it wedged on the bottom of the engine.

I had to buy two tool,s a six inch extension, to put in the bolts on the imrc, and 8mm box end wrench to take off the rear valve cover, which is still not off. The front right screw will not come out of the sleeve or whatever it is in at all.

Any advice?

Have you recieved a tracking number or requested one when shipped??? Did you request next day delivery??? Sorry it did not aarrive.

Again I would remove the cowl and rear valve cover any way and check the valve train, it is not that much work to remove cowl for access, you need to find the rattling parts, the more you drive the more damage can be done to the engine. I strongly recommend doing this diagnostic so if you do not need parts, the parts can be ordered Monday morning, pay for next day delivery and you will have the parts Tuesday.

Well, I got that &*^$%# valve cover off, and one of the valve tops (rocker arms) on #1 is completely off! So, you guys were totally right. It also means angry Ed, the mechanic, was totally wrong.

So, what do I do now?

Congrats! You've made a great discovery! Not one that I was expecting, but one of great importance just the same. "Wrench turning" and investigating .... beats talking and guessing every time.

Congrats! You've made a great discovery! Not one that I was expecting, but one of great importance just the same. "Wrench turning" and investigating .... beats talking and guessing every time.

Yes, thank you! But thanks to everyone who kept bugging me about it. If I'd done it first, it would now be fixed.

Here's the video for it.

http://youtu.be/Qny1DoB8mIA

The valve rocker is disconnected. No damage to anything, just off. What do I do to fix it?

Yes, thank you! But thanks to everyone who kept bugging me about it. If I'd done it first, it would now be fixed.

Here's the video for it.

http://youtu.be/Qny1DoB8mIA

The valve rocker is disconnected. No damage to anything, just off. What do I do to fix it?


Congrat you found your noise, but now you need to diagnose to see what the reason is for the rocker arm being loose.

IS the push rod bent???

Have you removed the push rod and inspected the end that connects to the lifter also for any flat spots,etc.???

How much travel does the push rod move when you crank the engine. This needs to be inspected to make sure the lifter is not collasped. (Compare it to 1 of the same on a different clyinder. ( I believe it is the exhaust valve , correct??) This will also show if the camshaft lobe is possibly worn.

Inspect the rocker arm for any excessive wear where the push rod meets the rocker arm and the bushing in the rocker arm that goes over the bolt, also make sure the rocker arm hole is not worn also.

In my opinion, waiting until you have found the source of the loose rocker arm I would not reinstall anything just in case you need to go further to fix the problem.

Rocker arm adjustment procedure from autozone.com repair manual.

Rocker Arms


REMOVAL & INSTALLATION (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?pageId=0996b43f8036e642#hd1-1-1)





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Removal & Installation




Remove the valve cover.
Remove the rocker arm retaining bolt.
NOTE
Rocker the arms should be installed in their original location during assembly.



Remove the rocker arms. If more than 1 rocker arm is to be removed, identify each rocker arm location.


To install:
<LI sizcache="11" sizset="8">Lubricate the pushrods and rocker arms with engine assembly lubricant. Lubricate the retaining bolts with engine oil.
NOTE
Prior to final tightening, the rocker arm seats must be fully seated into the cylinder head. The pushrods must be fully seated in the rocker arm and valve tappet sockets.




http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/20/96/e0/small/0996b43f802096e0.jpg
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/images/repair_guide/enlarge_icon.gifhttp://www.autozone.com/autozone/images/repair_guide/enlarge_tooltip.gif (http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repaiguideOverlay.jsp?src=http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/20/96/e0/medium/0996b43f802096e0.&imageType=gif&imageName=When the lifter is fully collapsed and on the base circle of the cam, check for proper clearance between the tip of the valve and the rocker arm-3.8L engine)
Fig. When the lifter is fully collapsed and on the base circle of the cam, check for proper clearance between the tip of the valve and the rocker arm-3.8L engine


Install the rocker arms into position with the pushrods and snug the retaining bolt.
Rotate the crankshaft until the lifter for the rocker arm being installed, is on the base circle (heel) of the cam lobe.
Tighten the rocker arm retaining bolt to:


3.0L: 60-132 inch lbs. (7-15 Nm)

3.8L: 44 inch lbs. (5 Nm)



Finally, tighten the bolt with the camshaft in any position to 20-28 ft. lbs. (26-38 Nm).
Install the valve cover.


Link to page:

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/repairinfo/repairguide/repairGuideContent.jsp?pageId=0996b43f8036e642

Too bad it is on the back side.......and not in the front.
From your post......it looks like you understand what I was talking about it being a lot of work bent over.
The good news is that you know what the cause of the noise is.
Not as easy of a problem to solve as I would have liked, but it have been much worse.
I will pray for the repair to be a smooth go for you.

Too bad it is on the back side.......and not in the front.
From your post......it looks like you understand what I was talking about it being a lot of work bent over.
The good news is that you know what the cause of the noise is.
Not as easy of a problem to solve as I would have liked, but it have been much worse.
I will pray for the repair to be a smooth go for you.

Thanks! To the both of you!

I have the Haynes manual, and already did print off the above post as my library has access to the Chilton's manual online.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=682522&highlight=rocker+arm

"If I just want to replace a push-rod I shouldn't have to do anything special right?

I'd just take off the rocker arm, slide the old one out and the new one in, correct?"

My friend said it would not need to be adjusted, but if it did, follow the Haynes manual.

So, do I just twirl the rocker arms, pull out the pushrod, disconnect the fulcrum bolt, inspect the spring and pieces, and roll the pushrod on something flat, and if good, put it all back together, and then just torque it down per here

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=765941&highlight=rocker+arm

?

Or do I do the TDC thing? He said to put the key in, turn it to start, on and off, and watch the first head go down on number 1, then torque down the exhaust rocker. Is that right? Or did I misremember it?

Wow, two months. I wish I'd go back in time, could do that, I'd do the back valve cover along with the front. Thanks for pushing it back to me each time!

It has been a long time since I have adjusted valves so someone correct me if I am wrong please.

The way I understand the manual procedure is to set no1 at TDC so both valves are closed.Then torque to 44 INCH POUNDS, check the clearence (0.09-0.19 inch). Then you can rotate the crankshaft ( rockerarms can be in any pposition) and torque to 22 - 29 FOOT POUNDS.

Also look thru the hole in the push rod while looking at a light to make sure the oil passage way on the rod is not plugged. Also make sure if the old push rod is used install in same position, meaning before removing mark to show which is top (rocker arm end) so push rod seats to rocker arm and lifter the same as before. (IF the push rod is replaced I would also replace the rocker arm.)

Hopefully some one like 12Ounce that has overhauled these engines or done a head repair job will jump in with some experienced advice.

No adjustment is necessary on the 3.8L pushrods because of the hydraulic lifters.

To check for a straight rod, roll it on a flat surface. A bent rod will wobble as it rolls, and roll at an uneven speed. I'd check the length as well, as they can wear. The rocker to rod clearance check is one way of doing that, but it requires that the lifter be "blead down" completely. As mentioned, check that the tube is clear. It can be cleaned with a carb. cleaner solvent.

Make sure you have all the rocker parts. I think there is the rocker, the saddle, a washer, plus the nut.

As mentioned, turn the crank with a wrench in the same direct it turns when running (I believe that's CW when looking straight into the front of the crankshaft, from the passenger side) to a point where the rod is retracted before tightening down the rocker. I've done it without turning the crank, but it's not recommended.

There is a torque requirement for the rocker bolts. It's not super critical (like a gasket), but if you have access to a wrench use it. A word about torque wrenches... they can be wrong, so use some common sense to make sure it's in the right ball park. I once used a torque wrench I borrowed from AutoZone, only to find that is was off by 2x. I like to think about how many pounds it should feel like I'm lifting for a given a torque. If I'm using an 12" (1 ft) bar (with my hand at the end), then 40 ft-lbs = 40 lbs force, which is equal to the weight of 5 gallons of water.

I believe a new push rod is a few dollars.

Looking at your video .... and assuming no disassembly work has been done on the fulcrum hold down bolt, no loosening, ....since the valve cover was removed .... then that hold down bolt is far too loose, allowing the rocker to be loose and, possibly, the push-rod escape.

It makes me guess that some repair work has been done on this engine in its past. ?? And that this bolt was left loose by mistake. I wonder if others may be loose? Ignoring the crankshaft position business .... I would check all of them using the upper end of the recommended torque range. There is a bit of danger here ... If a bolt has been loose and subjected to flexing ... it may just pop in-two! But what can one do? If this is so, then failure is imminent anyway.

The push-rod may be bent. An inspection on a flat surface as recommended is good. Check the ends for excessive damage. If you have access to a new push-rod, that is the smart way to go.

Your experience is reminding me on my neighbor's experience: Nice old gentleman who loved his old Bronco. He carried his Bronco down to the local Mom and Pop mechanic's shop (in business for years) to have a leaky valve cover gasket replaced. Mom and Pop give this simple task to some new kids they have employed. Nice boys! Smart!

Well, the smart kids did the job. Returned Bronco to neighbor. Took neighbors money. Neighbor notice the engine was a little nosey .... but the leak was fixed! ....or, at least, the leak was different! The engine gets more and more noisey .... after a few weeks, the Bronco finally is barely moving. Neighbor parks Bronco in back yard to die.

Enter me .... perhaps a year later. Curious, I asked if he wanted me to try to get the Bronco going again. Lifting the valve cover I found the kids had left a wrench behind! It apparently had lodged down inside a push-rod tube. Rockers upset! Rods propelled thru oil baffle in oil pan! However, it was an easy fix ... the Bronco still runs today, perhaps 5 years now.

And it doesn't leak!

No adjustment is necessary on the 3.8L pushrods because of the hydraulic lifters.

To check for a straight rod, roll it on a flat surface. A bent rod will wobble as it rolls, and roll at an uneven speed.

I checked the push-rod, it is fine. It rolled perfectly. The bottom part is stained brown, but the stain came off a little.

The broken part is the valve spring, which I think breaks often. It's in 3 pieces, is loose, and moves around.

I believe that means I need to do a little more than I had expected. The directions stated I need some sort of air pump, a valve spring compression tool, and a new spring.

How do I check to make sure it is just the spring, and not whatever it is connected to in the engine causing the problem? The valve compression test for that cylinder was 120 psi, that would seem to be fine. Is there anything else?

Your experience is reminding me on my neighbor's experience: Nice old gentleman who loved his old Bronco. He carried his Bronco down to the local Mom and Pop mechanic's shop (in business for years) to have a leaky valve cover gasket replaced. Mom and Pop give this simple task to some new kids they have employed. Nice boys! Smart!

Well, the smart kids did the job. Returned Bronco to neighbor. Took neighbors money. Neighbor notice the engine was a little nosey .... but the leak was fixed! ....or, at least, the leak was different! The engine gets more and more noisey .... after a few weeks, the Bronco finally is barely moving. Neighbor parks Bronco in back yard to die.

Enter me .... perhaps a year later. Curious, I asked if he wanted me to try to get the Bronco going again. Lifting the valve cover I found the kids had left a wrench behind! It apparently had lodged down inside a push-rod tube. Rockers upset! Rods propelled thru oil baffle in oil pan! However, it was an easy fix ... the Bronco still runs today, perhaps 5 years now.

And it doesn't leak!

Wow, you are a good neighbor. someone like me, too. I am a step-parent. The kids I helped get my Honey custody of, had a raging ,alcoholic, but mechanically gifted Dad. I had to do all sorts of things, as they had been beaten, and their Dad has Narcissistic PD, and they had no feelings for anyone else. Even a lot of their interactions with each other centered on who was greater than the other, who could take something, etc. I got them to do otherwise, and they have thanked me for it. You are a good person, and I hope if you had children they carry that with them.

This group has been very helpful for all of what I have had to do. Thank you all, mentioned or not!

Can you push the valve down with the broken spring still on.That is what you need to find out, if the valve moves freely the valve stem is straight. You will want to push on the top of the valve stem it self so you do not accidentally release the valve stem keepers from the spring holder. If the keepers were to come out the valve would fall into the clyinder and head will need to be removed to retrieve the valve.

Yes you willl need a air compressor and compression tester hose with the schreader valve removed to hold the valve in place to remove old spring and install new spring. The piston will need to be on TDC so both valve are closed and the air does not escape, you will know if that happens.

You may want to check with autozone, they may a valve spring removal tool in their loan a tool program. I will try to find a pic of tool so you know what it looks like.

I've borrowed a valve spring compressor from Autozone.

The air compression equipment is, as mentioned, used to keep the valve from falling into the cylinder. It is right to check that the valve moves freely. It could have gone in far enough that the piston bent the valve stem. However, there is another more subtle concern. If the valve stem isn't bent, but the valve was in far enough to damage the surface on the valve that sits on the valve seat, then your valve should be replaced. This requires removal of the head plus proper refacing and seating of the new valve.

If the valve moves freely in the valve guide (considering the friction due to the valve stem seal), you can give it a try as it is.

BTW, the brown coating is oil varnish, which is easily removed using carb. cleaner.