VTEC vs. SR20DE

Simple Question: Horse Power to the ground, wich motor will produce the most to the ground? The B16 with int,hea,exh,cams & ECU. The same for the SR,Type C Cams,JWT ECU,int,hea,& exh. How close would it be?

SR20DE baby!!

Actually, the B16 would win either stock or with equal simple bolt-on modifications. But you are SERIOUSLY missing the point of the SR here. First off if you wanted to compare Nissan to Honda I-4s, you would need something in its class, like an SR16VE from the Pulsar VZ-R (non-N1). Both having variable valve/cam timing technology, this would be a hardened match. The SR20DE shouldn't qualify a flow match with Honda since it's not designed for that all-motor type of application; most Nissan enthusiasts know that the original SR was designed for heavy stock internal turbo boost, something the B-series motor has a hard time accomplishing.

you forgot the torkey! ;) with the same mods it will be close in hp (honda will win in hp)but torkey the sr20de will kick asses
do not forget torke win races hp sels hondas

Oh, totally, completely forgot about the torque; good call.

the engines are about equal if you consider hp, and torque.

the sr16ve would whoop the shit out of a b16. those two engines are not in the same league.

Even when you take the power into consideration, the sr20 seems to put it to the ground better. I know a lot of people in the new sentra, with 145 horses that are giving a lot of si, sir and type r's a run for there money. The problem with the honda is it makes no power at all till at least 4500 rpms, if you take into account usable power, the sr20 has a lot more. you might get beat in the long run, but at least you won't be driving a honda so you can look at yourslef in the mirror every morning... lol.

Before buying my SiR (a real DOHC VTEC civic, not the crap USDM one) I drove, and tried hard to buy a SSS sentra. (160hp SR20)

I can honsetly say the B16a has much better low down power delivery.
Sure the sr20 has more midrange Torque, but then since its also 25% bigger than the B16a it should. However It lackeds the almost totaly flat Torque curve of the B16a from idle to redline.
The SR20 has more Torque but its not as useable. But as Morph mentioned, you can't really compare the two engines as they were designed with differnt goals in mind, and the Honda has a slight technology edge of the Nissan. :D

Originally posted by Moppie
Before buying my SiR (a real DOHC VTEC civic, not the crap USDM one) I drove, and tried hard to buy a SSS sentra. (160hp SR20)

I can honsetly say the B16a has much better low down power delivery.
Sure the sr20 has more midrange Torque, but then since its also 25% bigger than the B16a it should. However It lackeds the almost totaly flat Torque curve of the B16a from idle to redline.
The SR20 has more Torque but its not as useable. But as Morph mentioned, you can't really compare the two engines as they were designed with differnt goals in mind, and the Honda has a slight technology edge of the Nissan. :D

Honda has a technology edge?? uhhhh I think not. Why does the SR16VEN1 engine found in the N1 make more HP per Leter then any honda motor. 1595 CC 200HP 125.39 HP Per Leter
S2000 makes 120 HP Per leter.
Hondas VTEC is a 2 stage system
Nissans VVL is 3 Stage = 3 profiles Intake and Exhaust can turn on at different times Honduh can't

Nother intresting thing I found the New 2.0L VTEC found in the Acura RSX. Funny how thay copyed the dynamics of the SR20 Block. Same size piston bore and stroke. the engine is exactly the same displacement down to the CC as the SR20. Can't honda be origanal! :flipa:

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Honda has a technology edge?? uhhhh I think not. Why does the SR16VEN1 engine found in the N1 make more HP per Leter then any honda motor. 1595 CC 200HP 125.39 HP Per Leter
S2000 makes 120 HP Per leter.
Hondas VTEC is a 2 stage system
Nissans VVL is 3 Stage = 3 profiles Intake and Exhaust can turn on at different times Honduh can't

Nother intresting thing I found the New 2.0L VTEC found in the Acura RSX. Funny how thay copyed the dynamics of the SR20 Block. Same size piston bore and stroke. the engine is exactly the same displacement down to the CC as the SR20. Can't honda be origanal! :flipa:

ok, where do I begin.
1st you sound like you know very little about how an engine works, so before you read any further I sugest you go get a good book and have a read.
Now the SR16VE is a VERY rare and every extreme engine.
There are practicly no english language information sources on it, and even though I live in a country where 60% of the vechile fleet are used Japanese cars I have never seen one. Just because one engine has more hp than another dosnt mean it is technologicaly surerior, it just means it was developed a little more. Wild cams and some mild head porting will push a B16a well beyond 200hp with little trouble.
Where did you hear that the VVL is able to operate the cams independantly? This would do nothing more than make the change over a little smother, and guess what B series engines do the the same thing, the two cams to not switch at the same time.

Now after all of that, please note that this thread is comparing the NON VVL SR20de with a VTEC b16a. In which case regardless of whether or not the SR16VE exists, the B16a has a technology advantage. :rolleyes:

As for the RSX sharing the same bore and stroke, well I suggest you go read up on a thing called the rod ratio. Most 2l 4cly engines share the same bore and stroke, and if you do a little resurch you will find plenty of other engine that ceased production before the SR20 was even thought of that also have the same bore and stroke. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Moppie


ok, where do I begin.
1st you sound like you know very little about how an engine works, so before you read any further I sugest you go get a good book and have a read.
Now the SR16VE is a VERY rare and every extreme engine.
There are practicly no english language information sources on it, and even though I live in a country where 60% of the vechile fleet are used Japanese cars I have never seen one.

Well thats good.. We have 4 of them in stock at our shop. 2 2.0's and 2 1.6's


Just because one engine has more hp than another dosnt mean it is technologicaly surerior

True so what does Honda have that Nissan doesn't. Honda doesn't have NEO DI Turbo motors or
VVL Turbo motors like Nissan does. SR20VET 280 HP at a mild 10 PSI of boost.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Wild cams and some mild head porting will push a B16a well beyond 200hp with little trouble.


That argument can go one forever. So can the VVL even bigger cam's
and some porting. and if so why didn't thay do it


Where did you hear that the VVL is able to operate the cams independantly?

Where did I hear!! We have 4 or them there is 2 silinoiods. one for each cam.


This would do nothing more than make the change over a little smother, and guess what B series engines do the the same thing, the two cams to not switch at the same time.

B motors don't switch independently. Its a on off switch based on 3 items
oil presure 19 MPH on speed sensor and RPM. and being a on of switch thats why on every Honda VTEC Dyno sheet I have seen it has a drop in HP on the cam switch or at vary least with a good tuner a flat spot.

Now after all of that, please note that this thread is comparing the NON VVL SR20de with a VTEC b16a. In which case regardless of whether or not the SR16VE exists, the B16a has a technology advantage.

Well your intitaled to your wrong opinion.

As for the RSX sharing the same bore and stroke, well I suggest you go read up on a thing called the rod ratio.

Rod ratio? I think your thinking of the rod to stroke ratio. what is the RSX 1.81:1 something like that. I don't recall exactly

PS: All you will ever see is the back end of my NISSAN.
the 500HP honda distroyer.. ohh and tranny distroyer.:flipa:

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Honda has a technology edge?? uhhhh I think not. Why does the SR16VEN1 engine found in the N1 make more HP per Leter then any honda motor. 1595 CC 200HP 125.39 HP Per Leter
S2000 makes 120 HP Per leter.
Hondas VTEC is a 2 stage system
Nissans VVL is 3 Stage = 3 profiles Intake and Exhaust can turn on at different times Honduh can't

Nother intresting thing I found the New 2.0L VTEC found in the Acura RSX. Funny how thay copyed the dynamics of the SR20 Block. Same size piston bore and stroke. the engine is exactly the same displacement down to the CC as the SR20. Can't honda be origanal! :flipa:

Are you nuts? N1 is a limited edition work of art from Nissan. It's not even a mass production model. JDM Spec S2000 have 125hp/Litre.

VTEC found on S2000 is actually 3 Stage.

Yes it was posted in SCC a long while ago. However they are worlds different. NEO VVL is not comparable to i-VTEC.

Originally posted by CHRIS200T

True so what does Honda have that Nissan doesn't. Honda doesn't have NEO DI Turbo motors or
VVL Turbo motors like Nissan does. SR20VET 280 HP at a mild 10 PSI of boost.
[B]



Honda doesn't have much Turbo engine period. If you want Turbo you have to look at aftermarket parts. F20C with T4 Turbo at 8psi produce 400hp.

Oh gawd guys this could go on forever. Just give props where props are due and let's just be friends. :D:D

Just because Nissan doesn't mass produce their VVL engines in North America doesn't mean Honda has a technical advantage NA. I'll admit they were the first with a mass produced variable cam engine and the S2000 is a beast but I'll take a S15 DET anyday. :D

Originally posted by F20C



Honda doesn't have much Turbo engine period. If you want Turbo you have to look at aftermarket parts. F20C with T4 Turbo at 8psi produce 400hp.

The only way you will get 400 HP at 8 PSI is a custom built motor. I could do the same thing (NO PROBLEM) with a 54C SR20DET aka GTIR motor. No way in hell can you take any honda motor and push 400 HP to the wheels and not have the motor come apart. Unlike Honda motors I have seen GTIR motors put as much as 440 HP to the Wheels compleatly stock internals..

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


The only way you will get 400 HP at 8 PSI is a custom built motor. I could do the same thing (NO PROBLEM) with a 54C SR20DET aka GTIR motor. No way in hell can you take any honda motor and push 400 HP to the wheels and not have the motor come apart. Unlike Honda motors I have seen GTIR motors put as much as 440 HP to the Wheels compleatly stock internals..

This is not BHP but rather HP at the crank.

F20C 6 Psi Stock internals 350hp
F20C 8 Psi Head Gasket Change 400hp

There is a guy who bore and stroke his engine to 2.2L and He plans on adding Speedcraft Turbo as well. I am still waiting to see his output from the increase displacement are.

Go to S2Ki and search for Speedcraft Turbo if you don't believe me.

Mark Basch's SC for NSX C30A makes 370RWHP on stock internals @ 6PSI.

Originally posted by F20C


This is not BHP but rather HP at the crank.

BHP is still considered at the crank. I think you mean "NOT wheel HP." So those numbers you stated are the corrected number after they were done on a chassis dyno?

Originally posted by G-Forces

BHP is still considered at the crank. I think you mean "NOT wheel HP." So those numbers you stated are the corrected number after they were done on a chassis dyno?

Isn't BHP the amount of force need to stop the car at the wheel.

Yes the numbers are correct.

hp is bhp for people to lazy to type the b.
It dosnt matter if its measured at the crank or the wheels.



Ok its like this, Honda makes some of the worlds best Natural asperiated motors, and has done for some time, infact thier whole philosophy seems to be geared around it.
While Nissan on the other hand make some nice N/A motors, and ONE high hp N/A engine, that is very rare and nothing more than a one off.
But they do make some of the worlds best Turbo charged engines, and next to BMW the worlds best the I6 engine.

Honda still leads the world with mass produced variable lift and timing engines, and should do since they have a 10year lead over everybody else.

Nicely put. It's hard to get people to understand that each automaker has their own thing, and sometimes they are impossible to compare. For instance, most enthusiasts love both the feel of a high-powered turbocharged vehicle, AS WELL AS a free-revving naturally aspirated motor. It's like comparing Coke to 7-UP, instead of Coke to Pepsi.

And bhp is brake horsepower, the amount of force needed to stop the wheel--as in flywheel/crankshaft, etc.

Originally posted by F20C


This is not BHP but rather HP at the crank.

F20C 6 Psi Stock internals 350hp
F20C 8 Psi Head Gasket Change 400hp

:rolleyes:
Not on a stock computer. your talking about all kinds of stuff that needs to be done to support that HP. And I find it hard to beleave you will get another 50 HP with 2 more PSI and lowering the static comprestion. your dynamic comprestion if at all will only be slightly higher IF that.

Not to get off topic but bhp is brake horsepower, yes, but it's hp measured on a brake dyno. Typcially if you just talk about hp or bhp on a car you talk about it on the crank/flywheel.

There are still chassis brake dynos that measure at the wheels but you should really state at the wheels as most people assume you're talking about flywheel/crank hp otherwise. The most common chassis dyno is the inertial dyno, which uses a drum or drums with a known weight and calculate the torque based on the time needed to accellerate the drum to different speeds.

Sorry for getting off topic. :p

Originally posted by CHRIS200T

:rolleyes:
Not on a stock computer. your talking about all kinds of stuff that needs to be done to support that HP. And I find it hard to beleave you will get another 50 HP with 2 more PSI and lowering the static comprestion. your dynamic comprestion if at all will only be slightly higher IF that.

Not all kinds of stuff is needed for 8.5 psi. Speedcraft said the Turbo could run safe at 7 psi with intercooler. However they set it at 6.5 psi so per-caution measures.

http://home.xnet.com/~lamont/racing/comparo.gif

Blue is Comptech Supercharger. 6psi with everything stock.
Red is Speedcraft Turbo. 6.5 Psi with everything stock.

um... Hondas dont necessarily need an ECU upgrade to boost.

Nissans do in that respect... JWT will reprogram so your car reads boost and timing can be adjusted accordingly since they're all directfire ignitions.


ok folks, why not compare two similar platforms... the CA18DE and the B18C? same displacement.

Originally posted by drift
um... Hondas dont necessarily need an ECU upgrade to boost.

Nissans do in that respect... JWT will reprogram so your car reads boost and timing can be adjusted accordingly since they're all directfire ignitions.

No thay all don't have directfire ignistions. Only the RWD Silvia motor has that and even then we get rid of that and use a Distribitor from a RWD SR20DE motor

ok folks, why not compare two similar platforms... the CA18DE and the B18C? same displacement.

CA18DE compaired to a B18C is not even close compairison. VTEC vs non VTEC. The closest compairison to Nissan and Honda is a B16A and a SR16VE. B16A HP in its highest verson makes 170HP Nissans SR16VE in its lowest version makes 175HP and the Production Version of the SR16VEN1 makes 200HP = Highest HP/Leter motor to come from japan in N/A Form.

Hows that for compairison. But you can't compair a CA18DE from the early 80's to a up to date B18C. That is not even a close to compair.

I have to second that about the CA18DE not being a righteous conteder for the comparo. Not only was it lacking variable valve timing, and being seriously aged, but it was the true developing predecessor of the SR engine, which we all know was Nissan's starting point for serious turbocharged four cylinder performance. The CA18DET was, no, IS still great for blown power. The DE motors were not meant for that naturally aspirated fury. And as stated before, the VE powerplants are much more accoutered for the task.

Screw both of them and fit a SR20-DET. mmmmm....more boost...:frog:

I watched this thead and it is interesting on how it went from an N/A comparaison to turbo'ed, supercharged bla bla bla.

Chris the GTI-R motor is a Nissan Motorsports motor to start with you can't use that in the comparison. That is apples to oranges. It was developed as a rally engine with forged pistons, quad throttle bodies, larger 550 cc injectors the works.

Both motors compared have their pros and cons. If you want to go all out and call the best jap motor ever produced then look no further than the RB series, or the Q45 series V-8's. Nissan has had it all over in the rest in the forced induction competition, until you get into the new F1 Toyota is doing. But again that is not a mass produced engine for general car sales.

Originally posted by Razorgtst

Chris the GTI-R motor is a Nissan Motorsports motor to start with you can't use that in the comparison. That is apples to oranges. It was developed as a rally engine with forged pistons, quad throttle bodies, larger 550 cc injectors the works.


1st of all GTI-R is a production motor! not a Motorsports motor. and thay are not factory with forged pistons thay are standard cast pistons. and thay are not 550cc injectors. Nissan's 550cc injectors are side fed injectors and the GTI-R's are 444CC and are top fed. you can't use 550's in a GTIR if you wanted to well not with the stock fuel rail..
GTIR INFO AS FOLLOWED!

The GTi-R has oil squirter piston coolers
The GTi-R has a bigger oil pump.
The GTi-R has a different front pulley.
The GTi-R has a water cooled oil cooler.
The GTi-R has lower compression pistons (8.3:1 vs 8.5:1) found in the BlueBird and Silvia motors. Lower comprestion is due to the cylender head is a bit more open.
The GTi-R has 444cc Top fed injectors.
The GTi-R has mechanical shims and solid lifters with a slightly bigger in duration exhaust cam.
The GTi-R has individual Throttle body injection.
The GTi-R DET has stronger main cap bolts.
The GTi-R DET has stronger head bolts bolts 12mm vs Silvia's and Bluebirds are 10mm along with all SR20DE motors.
The GTi-R DET has beefier rods.

2nd of all. I wasn't compairing SR20DET motors to N/A Honda motors.
The most even compairison is the SR16VE and B16A motor.

PS: We swapped in a SR20VE motor for the 1st time with a few bolt ons (Intake,Exhaust,Header) into a 91 Sentra and ran it at the track 1/4 mile and it ended up posting a pretty impressive 13.7@100 mph on its 1st time out.

Good call, Chris. Once again, looks like some people really need to read before they respond.

The P12 Primera 20V's SR20VE (2.0L, 204 hp @ 7200 rpm, 152 lb. ft @ 5200 rpm, 11.0:1 compression) would be a nice match for the RSX Type-S's K20A2 (2.0L, 200 hp @ 7400 rpm, 142 lb. ft. @ 6000 rpm, 11.0:1 compression). Although horsepower numbers are almost identical, the Nissan's engine has 10 more lb. ft. of torque--and comes in much earlier along the powerband.

Only one problem: the 20V's SR should be next to impossible to find in the States.

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
Good call, Chris. Once again, looks like some people really need to read before they respond.

The P12 Primera 20V's SR20VE (2.0L, 204 hp @ 7200 rpm, 152 lb. ft @ 5200 rpm, 11.0:1 compression) would be a nice match for the RSX Type-S's K20A2 (2.0L, 200 hp @ 7400 rpm, 142 lb. ft. @ 6000 rpm, 11.0:1 compression). Although horsepower numbers are almost identical, the Nissan's engine has 10 more lb. ft. of torque--and comes in much earlier along the powerband.

Only one problem: the 20V's SR should be next to impossible to find in the States.

Shit!! We get them all the time now.. We buy up the entire stock when thay come in. :) we have got 4 of them in the month..

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
Good call, Chris. Once again, looks like some people really need to read before they respond.

The P12 Primera 20V's SR20VE (2.0L, 204 hp @ 7200 rpm, 152 lb. ft @ 5200 rpm, 11.0:1 compression) would be a nice match for the RSX Type-S's K20A2 (2.0L, 200 hp @ 7400 rpm, 142 lb. ft. @ 6000 rpm, 11.0:1 compression). Although horsepower numbers are almost identical, the Nissan's engine has 10 more lb. ft. of torque--and comes in much earlier along the powerband.

Only one problem: the 20V's SR should be next to impossible to find in the States.

While we are talking about K Series engine why not bring in the ultimate? JDM Integra Type R K20A (2.0L, 217 hp @ 8000 rpm, 149 lb. ft@ 7000 rpm, 11.5:1 compression). Think that's max out better think again because Honda has only applied i-VTEC on intake side.

Originally posted by F20C


While we are talking about K Series engine why not bring in the ultimate? JDM Integra Type R K20A (2.0L, 217 hp @ 8000 rpm, 149 lb. ft@ 7000 rpm, 11.5:1 compression). Think that's max out better think again because Honda has only applied i-VTEC on intake side.

Still the SR16VE-N1 beats out the K20A in HP/per leter and it beats the S2000 motor HP/leter.. Also a SR16VE head on SR20VE block (I want to try this and we are about to) but it should make close to 225 I am guessing.

Face it Nissan has built the highest HP/Leter N/A Piston motor for pasanger car.

My A20A1 0wnZ j00! :D :flipa:



Seriously, i think Honda has the best stuff in terms of technology application, in everyday vehicles, being driven thousands of miles, not just a few special super cars...

sr20 for me:D

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Still the SR16VE-N1 beats out the K20A in HP/per leter and it beats the S2000 motor HP/leter.. Also a SR16VE head on SR20VE block (I want to try this and we are about to) but it should make close to 225 I am guessing.

Face it Nissan has built the highest HP/Leter N/A Piston motor for pasanger car.

If I remember correctly SR16VE-N1 made 200 hp from 1.6L! The engine was not placed into a mass production model though. It's a limited produce high performance engine much like B18C. There is close to 10,000 S2000 produce a year. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to orange. If you want to compare special limited engine why not look at Spoon F20C? 2.0L 265 hp and c/r of 12.16:1.

Face what? You want to bring in a limited edition engine?

http://www.spoonsports.ca/s2keng.jpg

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Shit!! We get them all the time now.. We buy up the entire stock when thay come in. :) we have got 4 of them in the month..

Wow, you've got that many P12 20V SR20VE engines? Or are you talking about the P11's SR20VE engines? The P11's is a few horsepower shy (190 hp) of being a perfect factory competitor for Honda's K20A2, but either SR is great. Too bad the 20V itself isn't more of a real specialty car to compete with products like the Type-R; then it would have been equipped with much more than 204 hp.

Originally posted by F20C


If I remember correctly SR16VE-N1 made 200 hp from 1.6L! The engine was not placed into a mass production model though. It's a limited produce high performance engine much like B18C. There is close to 10,000 S2000 produce a year. Comparing the two is like comparing apples to orange. If you want to compare special limited engine why not look at Spoon F20C? 2.0L 265 hp and c/r of 12.16:1.


1st of all SPOON is not a Honda company!!

2nd it’s not a Factory Honda Prediction motor.

We are talking about factory production cars sold buy there companies. Let’s not get off the subject... If you want to get off the subject here we can. Nissan/NISMO Builds N/A 2.0L motors NON-VVL/VTEC with over just over 300HP.

Originally posted by CHRIS200T



1st of all SPOON is not a Honda company!!

2nd it’s not a Factory Honda Prediction motor.

We are talking about factory production cars sold buy there companies. Let’s not get off the subject... If you want to get off the subject here we can. Nissan/NISMO Builds N/A 2.0L motors NON-VVL/VTEC with over just over 300HP.

Please do tell how many SR16VE-N1 (just the engine) is produce each year. You were comparing a mass production car to a special limited edition one.

Originally posted by F20C


Please do tell how many SR16VE-N1 (just the engine) is produce each year. You were comparing a mass production car to a special limited edition one.

I believe there where 1000 Pulsar VZ-R produced with that motor in them. How meny more motors outside the car where made! I don't know for sure.

Spoon is not a Limited edition. That’s a custom motor. Spoon is not a factory built motor. toughs 12.16:1 compression pistons are probably a custom piston along with allot of other things in the motor like the cam and the head is probably ported & polished by Spoon.

Please stop trying to compare aftermarket tuners and passing them off as a production motor.

2nd of all.. the S2000 I beleve was a limited production car. I am sure the factory said thay where only going to make a fixed number along with the HYPE-R.

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


I believe there where 1000 Pulsar VZ-R produced with that motor in them. How meny more motors outside the car where made! I don't know for sure.

Spoon is not a Limited edition. That’s a custom motor. Spoon is not a factory built motor. toughs 12.16:1 compression pistons are probably a custom piston along with allot of other things in the motor like the cam and the head is probably ported & polished by Spoon.

Please stop trying to compare aftermarket tuners and passing them off as a production motor.

2nd of all.. the S2000 I beleve was a limited production car. I am sure the factory said thay where only going to make a fixed number along with the HYPE-R.

You do know that JDM F20C runs 11.5:1 C/R. Spoon sells a package that rise C/R to 12.16:1 etc.

I mention the Spoon engines because it was limited in quantity much like SR16VE-N1. You never compare apples to apples. You always like to compare apples to orange. Does Honda built a limited edition of F20C? If they do please do compare it. If not you have no valid judgement.

I call the 9000 something S2000 built last year very limited in edition. Not to mention all the other F20C engines Honda built. It adds up to well over 10,000 F20C engines last year alone.

Please where is your mass production SR16VE-N1? I don't see it anywhere!!

Originally posted by F20C


You do know that JDM F20C runs 11.5:1 C/R. Spoon sells a package that rise C/R to 12.16:1 etc.

I mention the Spoon engines because it was limited in quantity much like SR16VE-N1. You never compare apples to apples. You always like to compare apples to orange. Does Honda built a limited edition of F20C? If they do please do compare it. If not you have no valid judgement.

Please where is your mass production SR16VE-N1? I don't see it anywhere!!

Go buy one you can get them from the dealership in japan. The car is sold on the show room floor. Lets compair cars that are sold buy there companys on the show room floor.... Thats what I am trying to compair. Any produced engine from there rightfull owner sold as showroom stock. Not showroom stock to aftermarket such as your doing

What about the honda motorcycle engines some of them produce in excess of 150 hp out of 1.0L or less and that is totally stock. Also the b16a isnt that good of an engine to do the compairing to as it is an old motor and is at the end of its life as most of the b series motors are. Here are 2 motors that are even better for comparison. The 260hp SOHC 3.2L v6 in the CL type s vs the 255hp 3.5L in the nissan maxima. nissan couldnt reach its engineering hope number for the HP with that engine.

Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
nissan couldnt reach its engineering hope number for the HP with that engine.

The VQ35DE is still quite new. The upcoming G35 will have 5 more hp to 260 from the same powerplant. Wait for the VQ in the new Z. Most are predicting anywhere from 270-280 hp. Then you have the shrouded GT-R specs. Who knows how much power can be extracted from the VQ, if it does get the green light for Nissan's flagship grand tourer. As you can see, there is still much room for improvement for the 3.5. I'm not saying that the Honda motor doesn't have the same, but the Nissan's looks quite promising.

Oh by the way, the Maxima's 3.5 L has about 10 more lb. ft. of torque than the CL Type-S's 3.2 L, also important stuff (probably due to displacement, but numbers are numbers right?)

Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
What about the honda motorcycle engines some of them produce in excess of 150 hp out of 1.0L or less and that is totally stock.

Ever try towing a car with a bike? Motorcycle engines don't need to haul around 2,000 lbs. and are engineered differently.

I cant believe this debate is still going.

Honda has been building VTEC engines for over 15years, (development started in the early 80s, and the first production motors came out in 85/86 in some Bikes). They have almost perfected the technology to a point that now every Honda production engine made comes with some form of VTEC. No other manufactor can make a claim like that. (except maybe BMW who in the next two years will be using thier new intake valve tech on all thier engines)
As a result of this experiance Honda make engines with VERY flat torque curves, an almost unnoticable switch over point and have worked out how to match gear ratios seemlessly to the engines powerband.

Compare this to Nissans attempt, or Toyotas and Honda is Years ahead, both only make limited numbers of engines with this technology, and it would be fair to say that neither have perfected it. (whitness all the compliants about the Toyotas VVTi-L powerband and mismatched ratios, and Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems, you dont get 200hp from a N/A 1600cc engine with out sacrificing a lot of low end power.)
If you want to make lots of N/A power from a stock engine with the minimum number of Mods, then I would always chose a B series Honda motor over an SR20DE. They come stock with more hp, have a much higher redline, with potential to extend it further, (a B16a is safe to 9,000rpm+ on stock internals) and will handle much wilder cams with out major alterations to the valve gear. Its also a lot easaier to get hold of N/A tuning parts for a B16/18 than it is for an SR20DE. (and dont even think your going to find a wide selection of parts and people who know how to tune an SR16/20VE :lol2: )

If on the other hand I was planing on going with a Turbo then I wouldn't even look at a Honda engine, they simply dont take well to forced induction with out major internal work, and even then only a small number of people have done any real in depth resuarch. (I mean how many 700hp B18c's do you see? )
But I would seriously look at an SR20, Nissan spent a long time working on turboing this engine, and there are plenty of differnt turbo variants, which it takes to with great ease, and from Iv read in the G20 Forum much less work than a B16/18.

As soon as someone can get me a skyline over here in the states then I will sell my honda :D
Until then, Honda it is.

Yeah that is true but I have seen in the range of 30hp increases from the SOHC 3.2L type s motor from just a better set of headers on it. I am sure the nissan 3.5L has much room for improvement but it is still sad to see that they were advertising that it would have 260hp and then they couldnt even pull it off for that version of the engine. Also last time I checked the TL type s was faster than the new I35 from infiniti despite the higher torque. Once the 6 speed for the tl and cl comes out they will be killers that is for sure

Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
What about the honda motorcycle engines some of them produce in excess of 150 hp out of 1.0L or less and that is totally stock. Also the b16a isnt that good of an engine to do the compairing to as it is an old motor and is at the end of its life as most of the b series motors are. Here are 2 motors that are even better for comparison. The 260hp SOHC 3.2L v6 in the CL type s vs the 255hp 3.5L in the nissan maxima. nissan couldnt reach its engineering hope number for the HP with that engine.

Who gives a shit about 6 cylenders. Honda don't even make an 8. WTF is this post about! what about 150HP on a 1.0L if thats so kick ass put one in your car. What about yamaha. 120HP in 600cc!!

SOMEONE IS TOTALY OFF SUBJECT

Originally posted by Moppie
I cant believe this debate is still going.

Honda has been building VTEC engines for over 15years,
(development started in the early 80s, and the first production motors came out in 85/86 in some Bikes)

The technology of VTEC was around far befor HONDA ever had a name. I was told it was thought up and used in the late 30's .

I beleve BMW is leading the way as far as technology goes as thay have and still are developing Camless motors running infenit varable cam lift and deration & timing utalizing Silinoids to open valves.

Original "BULLSHIT" posted by Moppie
Compare this to Nissans attempt, or Toyotas and Honda is Years ahead, both only make limited numbers of engines with this technology, and it would be fair to say that neither have perfected it. (whitness all the compliants about the Toyotas VVTi-L powerband and mismatched ratios, and Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems, you dont get 200hp from a N/A 1600cc engine with out sacrificing a lot of low end power.)


ANYONE SMELL THAT???? I SMELL BULLSHIT!!!!!! B16A makes 113 ft-lb of torque the SR16VE makes 133ft-lb

Nissans 1.6 VVL makes the same if not more torque then the 1.8L VTEC found in the Acura Integra GS-R's

SR16 makes 105ft-lb of torque by 4500 rpm and climes up from there ! So the SR16 has a much wider power band then a B16. Shit the SR16 makes 90ft-lb at 900 RPM from idle. Thats not bad torque from a dead stop ether.

So to anwser that question. No to get 200HP you don't have to sacrafice low end power. If anyone has done so it would be honda.

Original "BULLSHIT" posted by Moppie
Im quite sure the SR16ve would suffer similar problems

uhhhh how sure are you again??? I am sure that honda working with 15 year old technology most other manufacturers have made something better.

Originally posted by MugenCivicHX
Yeah that is true but I have seen in the range of 30hp increases from the SOHC 3.2L type s motor from just a better set of headers on it. I am sure the nissan 3.5L has much room for improvement but it is still sad to see that they were advertising that it would have 260hp and then they couldnt even pull it off for that version of the engine.
Hay its better then ford and what they did with the Cobra's They clamed 320 HP and in the building of the car they found the exhaust hung to low so they smashed the exhaust up under the car making the exhaust backpressure the flow and drop 20HP . Dyno proven and Ford Recalled all cobra's for new exhaust and a intake manifold problem that is now being extrude honed! :) At least Nissan was honest I give them that much.

yeah that is true but still I would think nissan would have had an easy time getting that 5 extra hp out of a 3.5l

Originally posted by CHRIS200T

The technology of VTEC was around far befor HONDA ever had a name. I was told it was thought up and used in the late 30's .

The concept of variable lift and duration as well as timing has been around as long as the cam shaft, but Honda were the first to make it work in a mass produced automobile engine.



Originally posted by CHRIS200T


ANYONE SMELL THAT???? I SMELL BULLSHIT!!!!!! B16A makes 113 ft-lb of torque the SR16VE makes 133ft-lb................SR16 makes 105ft-lb of torque by 4500 rpm and climes up from there ! So the SR16 has a much wider power band then a B16. Shit the SR16 makes 90ft-lb at 900 RPM from idle. Thats not bad torque from a dead stop ether.

uhhhh how sure are you again??? I am sure that honda working with 15 year old technology most other manufacturers have made something better.

Bullshit huh? well First I think you need to watch what your saying and be a bit more polite. I dont like your attitude, and I can and will do something about it. Lets keep this a rational and intelligent debate and keep any name calling and flaming out of it.

Now since Hp is a function of torque it follows that an engine with 200hp will also have a higher peak torque figure than an engine with only 160hp at a similar RPM point.

If you care to do a little resuarch you will also find the first B16a reached a torque peak at around 4,000rpm and maintained an almost flat curve right untill redline, the later versions in the JDM market improved on this emensly.

Now would you care to state your references for the torque and hp figures of the SR16ve, as all the resuarch I have done on the net has show VERY little information on both motors, most of it is in Japanese language sites. Otherwise how do I know your not BS'ing me. :D

and finnaly please tell me how many models and in what markets Nissan has used its SR..VE engines? and in how many models and in how many markets Honda has used VTEC, and then tell me how succesfull it has been?

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


Go buy one you can get them from the dealership in japan. The car is sold on the show room floor. Lets compair cars that are sold buy there companys on the show room floor.... Thats what I am trying to compair. Any produced engine from there rightfull owner sold as showroom stock. Not showroom stock to aftermarket such as your doing

JDM F20C have 250ps from 2.0L I4. SR16VE-N1 have 200ps from 1.6L I4. You have been attacking that point because you know Honda doesn't sell a limited edition Type R for S2000. Which is pretty much what you are trying to use to compare with the mass production S2000. Either you can wait for a Type R variation of F20C a MASS Production SR16VE-N1. Until then we are really comparing apples to orange here. 1,000 engines per year does not count as mass production try 10,000.

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII


The VQ35DE is still quite new. The upcoming G35 will have 5 more hp to 260 from the same powerplant. Wait for the VQ in the new Z. Most are predicting anywhere from 270-280 hp. Then you have the shrouded GT-R specs. Who knows how much power can be extracted from the VQ, if it does get the green light for Nissan's flagship grand tourer. As you can see, there is still much room for improvement for the 3.5. I'm not saying that the Honda motor doesn't have the same, but the Nissan's looks quite promising.

Oh by the way, the Maxima's 3.5 L has about 10 more lb. ft. of torque than the CL Type-S's 3.2 L, also important stuff (probably due to displacement, but numbers are numbers right?)

VQ35DE is going to be the backbone of all future Nissan cars. The Turbo variation coming will make things very interesting.

How much gain on the nissan from header and exhuast for 3.5L?

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII


Ever try towing a car with a bike? Motorcycle engines don't need to haul around 2,000 lbs. and are engineered differently.

Which is more fun in your mind? 13,000 RPM Motorcycle or 6500 RPM Car.

Originally posted by Moppie


The concept of variable lift and duration as well as timing has been around as long as the cam shaft, but Honda were the first to make it work in a mass produced automobile engine.





Bullshit huh? well First I think you need to watch what your saying and be a bit more polite. I dont like your attitude, and I can and will do something about it. Lets keep this a rational and intelligent debate and keep any name calling and flaming out of it.

Now since Hp is a function of torque it follows that an engine with 200hp will also have a higher peak torque figure than an engine with only 160hp at a similar RPM point.

If you care to do a little resuarch you will also find the first B16a reached a torque peak at around 4,000rpm and maintained an almost flat curve right untill redline, the later versions in the JDM market improved on this emensly.

Now would you care to state your references for the torque and hp figures of the SR16ve, as all the resuarch I have done on the net has show VERY little information on both motors, most of it is in Japanese language sites. Otherwise how do I know your not BS'ing me. :D

and finnaly please tell me how many models and in what markets Nissan has used its SR..VE engines? and in how many models and in how many markets Honda has used VTEC, and then tell me how succesfull it has been?

Hey moppie haven't seen you for a long time dude. :D

Originally posted by F20C


Hey moppie haven't seen you for a long time dude. :D

Iv been here, just not in this forum very much, I find a lot of these comparision pointless, and many of the contributors very narrow minded, ;)

:D :cool:

Originally posted by Moppie


Iv been here, just not in this forum very much, I find a lot of these comparision pointless, and many of the contributors very narrow minded, ;)

:D :cool:

You should help out this forum. :devil: A lot of people participating in this forum make me wonder what has gotten into their mind. Just like earlier when someone posted Drag is a better judgement of a car's true ability than Track. I don't know man I haven't been on this board much lately either. It didn't help when PH took over the Honda/Acura side.