VTEC vs. SR20DE

Originally posted by F20C


You should help out this forum.

Yeah I try sometimes, but to many people still come in here with often bigoted views about what they think is the better car, and have little or no rational reasons behind thier beliefs. There then unable to understand rational debates, and simply resort to the online equvilant of attempting to shout you down.
Whitness my post before, and the subsequent claims it was BS. Theres little I can do about that except warn the members concerned and take action if they repeat the performance, but as for getting a rational debate out of them Im pretty powerless.

Originally posted by Moppie


Yeah I try sometimes, but to many people still come in here with often bigoted views about what they think is the better car, and have little or no rational reasons behind thier beliefs. There then unable to understand rational debates, and simply resort to the online equvilant of attempting to shout you down.
Whitness my post before, and the subsequent claims it was BS. Theres little I can do about that except warn the members concerned and take action if they repeat the performance, but as for getting a rational debate out of them Im pretty powerless.

Being a moderator is hard. You have no powers to take any actions. I have plenty of those memory from SHO. Especially when the 2 admin aren't there all the time.

Originally posted by F20C


Being a moderator is hard. You have no powers to take any actions.

Things are a little differnt here. ;)
We have a lot more power than most mods on other forums will ever see............ :cool:

Originally posted by Moppie


Things are a little differnt here. ;)
We have a lot more power than most mods on other forums will ever see............ :cool:

That's good sorta like a super moderator. BTW I am little fed up with SHO's server speed. It's been damn slow when I have the time to get online.

Some die hard Nissan Fans in here I see..

So seems like the topic has changed to the comparison between Nissan and Honda N/A engines huh?:D


well..admit it..IF Nissan N/A engines were so good and produced so much more hp then Honda's N/A's and can kick honda's N/A engines so easily coz honda n/a engines are not better then Nissan n/a as deeply expressed by Chris...then tell me Chris..why is it..today..Honda in Japan..at least..dominates the N/A cars market?..and why is it..in nearly EVERY Best motoring Japanese car comparison videos..the "Professional" Japanese racing drivers..who in every video compares stock cars against each other..always states that Honda N/A engines are one of the best..due to there performance on the track?
I'm talking reality here...and not looking at engine powers and info on the net.
Believe me..on one of the best motoring videos..they compared the JDM Pulsar VZ-R to the JDM Civic Type-R with the 185hp B16B engine...and what was the outcome?..Civic Type-R completely smoked the VZR start to finish..on every corner..and every straight line....and not just that..they compared it to Mirage ZR Mivec and all other N/A cars from other cars that were in the same level..and Honda dominated the races....so this proves one thing..Honda is still the overall best N/A cars today..in japan..if u ask ANY car tuner in Japan about N/A engines..they will point u to a N/A Honda engine.

don't take this the wrong way...I admire nissan's for there turbo engines...since I really want a S15 to play with...but if u compare Nissan N/A's to Honda N/A's...admite it..Honda so make better..and more popular N/A engines..since that is what Honda's are good at..and only good at..well..at least.

and i know these stuff..coz as a kid who goes to japan yearly..and is interested in car stuff..i learned all these through some car friends in japan and some tuners and of course...my favortie best motoring car videos..

"An Sr20 can push 400 hp too the wheels on Stock internals. Can you do that with your precious Vtec? I don't think so. Get off your soap box gimp." -Mike Collins

If a car company sells 1,000 or 10,000 auto's it still is production, no matter how you candy-coat it;)

From what i've read, about half of you need to do more research before working those fingers

I can still buy a SR20VE for less than a GS-R 1.8.....

Nissans 1.6 VVL makes the same if not more torque then the 1.8L VTEC found in the Acura Integra GS-R's
Chris, good luck preaching to the deaf...........

Originally posted by p_r_i_m_e_r_a
"An Sr20 can push 400 hp too the wheels on Stock internals. Can you do that with your precious Vtec? I don't think so. Get off your soap box gimp." -Mike Collins

If a car company sells 1,000 or 10,000 auto's it still is production, no matter how you candy-coat it;)

From what i've read, about half of you need to do more research before working those fingers

I can still buy a SR20VE for less than a GS-R 1.8.....

Nissans 1.6 VVL makes the same if not more torque then the 1.8L VTEC found in the Acura Integra GS-R's
Chris, good luck preaching to the deaf...........

Your mama! :eek: Hehe

It doesn't matter to me either way, cause I am stuck here in America where we don't get Sylvias and Skylines so I think I will go buy an S2000 when I get a chance.

Originally posted by 91HBSi


Your mama! :eek: Hehe

It doesn't matter to me either way, cause I am stuck here in America where we don't get Sylvias and Skylines so I think I will go buy an S2000 when I get a chance.

Funny, I live in America too and you can get your hands on all of the above one way or another.
Plus Nissans new lineup will include some variation of the Skyline.

P.S. my mamma says Honda HB's are to Imports as Mullets are to Musclecars...............:eek:

OK Just a short post on the SR16VE / B16 DEBATE.

I own a nissan pulsar VZ-R with the sr16ve engine.
I have friends who have civic si-r 's and hence had the chance to compare the two cars. I am not basing my comments but on my drives in both cars. The civic handles better, the VZ-R is faster. I have a car length on the si-r by the time we are doing 160kmph.

I have also run against starlet turbos or glanza's in the dom market and both the civic and vz-r had no problem with this one.

In favour of the civic , tuning parts are very easy to come by as is info and support. The sr16ve .....hmmm no info, everything is japaneese and I am stuck after doing int/exh and flywheel.

Any experts out there who can help??

Originally posted by VZ-R
The civic handles better, the VZ-R is faster. I have a car length on the si-r by the time we are doing 160kmph.



I think this kinda sums it up! Only a car length at 160kph? Even though the SR16ve supposdly has a lot more hp than the B16a. I guess Nissan made an engine with little practicle street use, i.e. they forget that making all that peak hp will come at the expense of useable torque. Oh well Nissan have always been more into Turbo's for their performance models.


Anyway VZ-R welcome to AF! Your the first person Iv ever encounted who claims to actualy own a VZ-R and is able to tell us about what its like to drive. :cool: :cool:

Iv also had a good hunt for info on them, but as you said its all in Japanese. Try useing the bablefish translation program at www.altavista.com It might be of some help.

Otherwise there's a member in the Infinity G20 forum (USDM Primera) who I tihnk knows a bit about them.

Originally posted by p_r_i_m_e_r_a


Funny, I live in America too and you can get your hands on all of the above one way or another.
Plus Nissans new lineup will include some variation of the Skyline.

P.S. my mamma says Honda HB's are to Imports as Mullets are to Musclecars...............:eek:

I can't belive you just compared my car to a mullet :( I don't see many 4g hatches around here. Mine is, for sure, the only one that has any aftermarket stuff.

I am glad this topic came up again, because I am in a dilemma. I found a 95 240sx Se for sale and I am wondering if I should get it or not. It is 4300 dollars, which is negotiable I am sure. But I don't know if I should sell my civic and start over on another car or what. If I don't get the 240 then I will swap a b18b into the hatch. If I get the 240 I will have little or no money to spend on it, except for some wheels, cause it has these hideous wheels on it that look like a flower or something. I would eventually swap in an SR20. What would you guys do?

I drove the car today and I like it, but I don't know if I want to abandon the hatch that I've loved for so long....

Originally posted by Moppie



I think this kinda sums it up! Only a car length at 160kph? Even though the SR16ve supposdly has a lot more hp than the B16a. I guess Nissan made an engine with little practicle street use.

Actually the VVL motors are Vary Practical for street use. In stock form in a NX2000 (my girlfriend’s car) it ran a somewhat traction limited 14.1@95MPH on street tire's... The car makes awesome torque and when the VVL hits at 4800 RPM it breaks the tires free in 1st gear and smack the rev limiter. So it is vary practical motor to drive. Never messed with the SR16VE's only the SR20VE's. I know when I raced my friend's Civic SI witch has Intake, header & exhaust by 85mph or so I am out on him by like almost 4 car length’s.. I even pulled on a 6speed RSX type"S"hit on the top end on the freeway with noooo problem witch buy the way is a 2.0L 200HP VTWACK motor and both Civic SI b16a powered and RSX type"S"hit are both around the same weight as the NX2000... So I would say it performs just about everywhere in the power band vary well. More so then Honda's VTWACK.

PS: Our Shop toy car "2.0L almost bone stock VVL POWERD Sentra E modle with Intake and Open header on a stock 2.0L SE-R NON VVL Computer On Slicks ran 13.2 in the 1/4 mile. I don't know of meny stock GS-R Swap's or type R swaps into Civic HB's that run that fasthttp://www.xaqtly.com/streets/Images/8.jpg

Originally posted by 91HBSi


I can't belive you just compared my car to a mullet :( I don't see many 4g hatches around here. Mine is, for sure, the only one that has any aftermarket stuff.

I am glad this topic came up again, because I am in a dilemma. I found a 95 240sx Se for sale and I am wondering if I should get it or not. It is 4300 dollars, which is negotiable I am sure. But I don't know if I should sell my civic and start over on another car or what. If I don't get the 240 then I will swap a b18b into the hatch. If I get the 240 I will have little or no money to spend on it, except for some wheels, cause it has these hideous wheels on it that look like a flower or something. I would eventually swap in an SR20. What would you guys do?

I drove the car today and I like it, but I don't know if I want to abandon the hatch that I've loved for so long....

GO RWD Silva Swap on the 240!! Turbo is by far the best fun you will ever have. TURBO 240 RWD! You will become a drift master :)

On the other hand the HB!!!! Wowww I used to own a 91 Civic HB By far one of the smallest car's with the most room inside that I did like allot about the car.. I choped a hole tree into 4 peace's and it fit in my HB. Broke the seat doing it but hay it fit. :)

CHRIS200T Q. Why the need to talk about Honda's VTEC engine's with such derogatory language?
Its really not needed, and is most often used to cover up ignorance and irrationality.


Anyway, its a bit unfare to compare a 2.0L Sr20ve with a B16a, and even more unfare to compare it with the D16y non-VTEC in the Civic si. or the detuned for the US B16a in the later 5g/6g Si and Del Sol.

And as for taking on an RSX, well was it a Type S? or the 160hp base model? and either way you have a huge weight advantage.

And 200hp from a well tuned B18c in a 4g hatch will easily reach deep into the 13s. Or what your sentra on slicks is doing. :rolleyes: and faster than your g/f's NX2000. :rolleyes:

Anyway, as far as im concerned this a pointless argument.

Honda has been building Variable lift and timing engine for far longer than anyone else, and has spent signifcantly more money and time than any other manufactor, they are also the only manufactor fitting the technology to every single one of thier engines.

You mention that the SR16ve has 200hp, the same as the F20c in the new RSX, well does the SR16ve also have ULTRA LEV status? I dont think so. And more importantly, how noticeable is the Cam change over? oh thats right you break traction, the K20c or even the B16b (Civic Type-R) has such a smooth change over its not a problem. And in the new K20 is almost unnoticable.


blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc............................................... ..

I, for one, have really abandoned any commentary to this thread. The world already knows about Honda's mastery to natural aspirated prowess; after all where do they get their basis for their Formula One effort?

On the other hand, Nissan has always been a name for hardened blocks and high pressures; namely turbochargers. I must applaud them for endeavoring into foreign territories. The SR16VE may not be the best high strung n/a motor, nor the most efficient turbo mill for their standards, but the SR16's block is still an offspring of the SR20DET, and does provide forced induction capabilities. Then again, this does seem to be a n/a thread.

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
I, for one, have really abandoned any commentary to this thread. The world already knows about Honda's mastery to natural aspirated prowess; after all where do they get their basis for their Formula One effort?

On the other hand, Nissan has always been a name for hardened blocks and high pressures; namely turbochargers. I must applaud them for endeavoring into foreign territories. The SR16VE may not be the best high strung n/a motor, nor the most efficient turbo mill for their standards, but the SR16's block is still an offspring of the SR20DET, and does provide forced induction capabilities. Then again, this does seem to be a n/a thread.

That is true! VVL's are vary easy turbo and thay will hold the HP over 400 Wheel HP on a compleatly stock bottom end Maybe even closer to 500 . Personaly seen 450 WHP stock bottom end from the SR motors.
Hondas would be lucky to see 1/2 that on a turbo stock bottom end.
Mater of fact the VVL Blocks have all the stuff you need for factory turbo hookup's everything on the DET is on the VE blcok except its pluged . Takes all of 1 hr to drill everything you need. Overlap is kinda high for turbo on a VVL..

PS: Does anyone have cam spec's on B16's or B18 motor's I have all specs on VVL's and want to compair.

Much Thanks

I have heard of stock B16's and B18s making over 400hp on stock bottom ends, but do to it propelry and safely, then really do need block gruards fitted, along with new rods. (the crank is more than strong enough though).

The SR block design is surperior to B series if forced induction is your goal. However I believe Honda's head, cam, piston, rod and crank design is far better if natural asperation is your goal.

Even the most basic knowledge of both engine designs should tell you this, and its only possible to argue otherwise out of ignorance.


CHRIS200T There are sites with the specs for the B series cams out there, they will not be as wild as the SR16ve design, although the B16b and B18c cams will come close.

Try posting in the Honda tech forum, Im sure someone there will be able to point you in the right direction.

Check this out!!! Almost Compeatly bone stock VVL Dyno numbers

Ghetto intake and cracked header. Other than that its stock from ECU to exhaust. all stock.


SR20VE Stock VVL Dyno Chart (ftp://216.55.71.25/amber/amber_dyno-176hp.jpg)

If I remember correctly B18C's put down 144 WHP Stock
and Hype-R's put down 160 WHP stock and the SR20VE
is puting down 176.6 HP with a busted Intake and Small
Header form a DE motor.

I am impressed. I am sure with a good CAI and good 2.5" exhaust and some N1 CAM's and some dyno tuning for fule map's this car should hit right around 200 WHP. with just basic bolt on's

Very nice, but remember that its a 2.0L compared to the Honda engines, and it is deffintly running much much wilder profile on the high speed cam lobes than the B18c's.
If you see a good dyno plot for a b16a or B18c the power curve is much smother, there isnt the same very sharp power jump thats apprent from the SR20. The Torque curve from the honda engines is even more impresive in how flat it is, especialy when compared to the SR20.
And notice the small dip at change over, (about 4,800rpm) something almost eradicated in the later versions of the B16a and the B18c, and now totaly eradicated in the new K20 engines.
Even in the early B16a's its not that severe.

So what does this show? well yes the SR20VE does make an impresive amount of hp from the box, and I would love to put one in my kit car. (see link in sig).
However its clearly not as well developed as a street engine when compared to Honda's B series engines, its much more peaky, shows a much more noticeable change when the high speed cam lobes come in, has a noticable power dip at change over.

And notice the torque drop off at 6,000rpm!!!! damn, thats bad, I only just saw it.
My car peaks at about 7,200 and donst start a noticeable drop off till well past 8,000rpm.

So basicly the SR20 even with some clearly wilder cams than what Honda use might make more hp, but it dosnt seem nearly as refined.
Infact I wouldn't want it as a regular car engine, be nice in a race car, but sounds like trouble and a pain in traffic. No wonder they come with a CVT on the primera.

And you mention 200whp with a some simply bolt ons?
oh wow weeeeeeee! and so what?
I know of B16a's making 200whp with cams and tuning.
And its even easier to do with a B18c. Infact adding ITR cams, pistons and tweaking the fuel and ignition timing will yield over 215hp at the crank. Think what that could become with some simple aftermarket cams?
I know of over 300hp crank hp being made. :D


OK, I think thats enough ranting,
Iv found a dyno of a USDM Civic Si, remember these are only a B16a (1600cc) and the most pathetic version ever made (except the one sold in europe in the early 4g Civic VTi) only just making 160hp and suffering from emissions regs, and Honda not wanting to be labeled as Hot hatchs in the US, but not wanting to miss a sales opertunity either.
(my car is more higly tuned, and its nearly 10yrs older)

The plot shows a before and after install of JRSC supercharger. so ignore the higher lines. :D
But notice the flat torue curve, and constant slope of the power curve.
And notice the torque drop off dosnt begin till 7,500rpm.

oh and thank you Chris!

You seem to be the only person here who actualy knows anything about the srVE engines, and is prepared to help the rest of us learn about them.
They sound even more misunderstood than VTEC, but are certinaly capable of making some very good hp numbers, not bad for an engine made in limited numbers and sold to a small market, and by a company thats used turbo's on most of its performance cars. (and is now a world leader accordingly in turbo technology)

:cool:

This is a very informative thread. Just want you guys who have contributed to it to know that I appreciate it. Now that the flaming has stopped it is even enjoyable :p

Originally posted by Moppie
And notice the torque drop off at 6,000rpm!!!! damn, thats bad, I only just saw it.
My car peaks at about 7,200 and donst start a noticeable drop off till well past 8,000rpm.


Ya with 1.6L N1 Cam's in a 2.0 VVL peak power is at around 7700 RPM and power starts to fall off at 8600 RPM

Originally posted by Moppie

And you mention 200whp with a some simply bolt ons?
oh wow weeeeeeee! and so what?
I know of B16a's making 200whp with cams and tuning.
And its even easier to do with a B18c. Infact adding ITR cams, pistons and tweaking the fuel and ignition timing will yield over 215hp at the crank. Think what that could become with some simple aftermarket cams?
I know of over 300hp crank hp being made. :D


This statement is compleatly BS
No stock bottom B16a can come close to 200WHP with just Bolt ons and Cams..

My step brother had a built 11.5:1 B18C bottom end with a B16 Head Civic Type R Cam's Type R manifold ported head from his buddy who has done heads for cosworth for the past 11 years a HiTech Header and Mugen ECU on SSR Type X's and made 201 WHP on a 1.8L .. so for you claim of 200 HP on a B16 is BS.


I have seen 300 HP out of SR20 motors N/A before. (http://www.se-r.net/multimedia/pictures/300hp_na_sr20/intake_side.jpg)

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


This statement is compleatly BS
No stock bottom B16a can come close to 200WHP with just Bolt ons and Cams..


No bolt ons, just cams and piggy back ECU to tune the A/F ratio and timing. :)
A B16a will happily rev to 9,000rpm for everyday use, and is good for 10,000 if you plan on regular rebuilds, say after every race
season.
The bottom end of a B series engine is very strong, and will handle over 200hp with out much trouble. Being an engine designed for N/A they do certianly require stronger rods if you want to add lots of boost, but even then the crank has plenty of strength in it.

And porting a B16a head is a tricky bussiness, they really dont need it unless you want to make extremes of power. (and how do I know your bro's mate really worked for cosworth porting heads? oh wow! I currently work for the only Lotus service center in NZ, does that make me special? no its just means I get to fix $200,000 cars, but have someone who knows what thier doing standing over me.)

Right now there are cams avliable off the shelf from Spoon or Crower or others that will make 200hp at the crank on a B16a. You only need an extra 25hp to make that 200 at the wheels. And with some custom cams, and good tuning it can be done. all on stock intake, headers and bottom end. and all from a lowely 1600cc.
From a B18c its even easier, and 200hp at the wheels can be done with aftermarket off the shelf cams.


And dont accuse me of bullshitting. It only brings the tone of the thread down, and actualy works against any arguments you maybe making.
I was enjoying learning something about the SR-VE engines from you, but it seems your not as interested to prehaps learn from me.

Originally posted by Moppie

And dont accuse me of bullshitting. It only brings the tone of the thread down, and actualy works against any arguments you maybe making.
I was enjoying learning something about the SR-VE engines from you, but it seems your not as interested to prehaps learn from me.

I know almost as much about honda's as I do nissan's. Being your stuck in NZ where no one is doing much with honda's how could you know anymore then what people tell you. From what I see your car is bone stock. Anything I don't know I can find out 1st hand by going to my bro's shop and work with him on stuff. There allways doing trick stuff to B & H Honda motor's. Thay got some cool motor config's 2.0L non strocked B18C Block's Some custom sleave's that allow for some fat sized pistons bolt ons and Civic Hype-R Cam's thay mannaged 225 WHP for customer's dayily driver's. Now thats a 2.0L vs a SR20VE it will be hard for me to find 225 WHP at this time out of a SR20VE motor. Sometimes I think about buying a 92-95 Civic CX and doing one of this motor's but it is expencive compaired to Nissan's that SR20VE I droped in and it only cost 700 bucks for a 177 WHP swap. You can't come close here in the state's for that. Avarage Swap for a B16 is like 2400-2800 bucks.

Dollor for Dollor right now the Nissan dominate's in my book. Even Turbo swap's are less then B16 swap's

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


I know almost as much about honda's as I do nissan's. Being your stuck in NZ where no one is doing much with honda's how could you know anymore then what people tell you. From what I see your car is bone stock.

Everything else you said made sense, but please dont try and insult my intelligence.
If your as old as you sound then I have been working on and modifying cars long before you ever learned to drive.
:rolleyes:

And as for NZ not doing much with Honda's? Mate you need to get out a little bit more. There are plenty of fast Honda's down here, Inlcuding localy made Turbo kits that are not only half the price of the crap coming out of the US, but also make more power.
You have to remember that we are over loaded with cheap imports, and have a strong national history of being successful in motorsport.
Ever heard of a Bruce Mclaren? or since your a Nissan freak how about Steve Millan? or his brother Rod?
And whos that young guy who keeps winning all the indy car race's? whats his name, Scott Dickson. Yip, them and countless others are all Kiwis, and its a fact that modern motorsport would be nothing like it is today if it wasnt for the input of Kiwi engine builders, chassis designers and enginers.
Theres a good reason EVERY single F1 team today has at least one Kiwi member. :finger4:

Originally posted by Moppie


Everything else you said made sense, but please dont try and insult my intelligence.
If your as old as you sound then I have been working on and modifying cars long before you ever learned to drive.
:rolleyes:

And as for NZ not doing much with Honda's? Mate you need to get out a little bit more. There are plenty of fast Honda's down here, Inlcuding localy made Turbo kits that are not only half the price of the crap coming out of the US, but also make more power.
You have to remember that we are over loaded with cheap imports, and have a strong national history of being successful in motorsport.
Ever heard of a Bruce Mclaren? or since your a Nissan freak how about Steve Millan? or his brother Rod?
And whos that young guy who keeps winning all the indy car race's? whats his name, Scott Dickson. Yip, them and countless others are all Kiwis, and its a fact that modern motorsport would be nothing like it is today if it wasnt for the input of Kiwi engine builders, chassis designers and enginers.
Theres a good reason EVERY single F1 team today has at least one Kiwi member. :finger4:

Yaaa Yaa well keep strocken yourself some more. If imports where so dam fast down there. Then why is there no word of any fast cars from there. Turbo kits making more power down there then here. Bolt on turbo kit. Well my "BOLT ON Turbo kit made 500WHP" Lets see a Honda do that on a stock bottom end. You can talk about fast car's all you want to bad you don't have one. That must suck looking to others to go fast..

Oooook, I think we need a breather.

Just an observation:
Now that nearly all automakers are using some sort of variable valve/cam timing, does the future hold a standardized place for this type of technology? Will we be seeing the abundance of the letter "V" from here on?

And how much more powerful can variably timed engines become? It does seem to have its limitations; after all it isn't a power adder, but rather, a power finder. In the end all hidden spots of the powerband will be discovered and engineers will need to look elsewhere. Forced induction and large displacement undoubtedly yield much more power; I suppose we could really use some of that alien metal they found in the "Predator's" blade weapon which was supposedly light as a feather and strong as steel. Imagine if all rotating mass was made of this! :alien: Who knows, maybe science will somehow synthesize a compound with these qualities, just as carbon fiber took the industry by surprise.

Ok, that's enough automobile philosophizing for now...

Originally posted by Morpheus XIII
Oooook, I think we need a breather.


Ok, that's enough automobile philosophizing for now...


A breather? :D I think Chris knows what will happen if he get's carried away.
Besides such ignorance can be fun to play with.

Anyway, Morph you opened up so many potential discussions in your last paragragh I dont really know where to begin.

Your most definitly right in Variable valve lift and timeing being the way of the future, and Eeven with a 12yr lead in R&D Honda will soon lose any advantage it once had in terms of marketing power.
Especialy when you look at the amount of money a company the size of Toyota with the backing of GM could put into resurching it further.
Prehaps something as light as a feather but as strong as steel isnt so far away. :D
(or prehaps ceramic engines are getting closer to a production reality.)

I feel a thread on Automotive philosophising is long over due.
So if those with a mature, profesonial and enlightened attitude towards all things automotive would care to make thier way to the philosophy forum I might just start one.

Morh, I hope you dont mind if I use your last paragraph as a starter?

Of course. I consider anything I put up on AF free game.

(heading over to the philosophizing forum :) )

you guys can argue till your blue in the face... as it seems you already are.. both honda and nissan have their own ass kickin stuff...
all i know is i never seen any nissan look as sweet as a nice 2003 Acura NSX........mmmmhhhh mhhhhhh

Originally posted by THE4TH
you guys can argue till your blue in the face... as it seems you already are.. both honda and nissan have their own ass kickin stuff...
all i know is i never seen any nissan look as sweet as a nice 2003 Acura NSX........mmmmhhhh mhhhhhh

Vary nice looking but for the price. A dam rip off! and for what it is. Its under powered. I am sure a SC430 Old man driving toyota is faster than a NSX. I raced one and when I got traction at about 70MPH I thought he shifted to Reverse. I was like wowwww He must be imbarised. I know he was after some choise words I had for him at the next light.

But back on subject and thay are nice looking cars but way way over priced. I think what for about 1/2 the price you can get a VET that look pritty cool and will give up a better fight on the street... I am sure a much better fight.

Chris Allen (North San Deago.)
96 200SX GTIR Powerd 497WHP on C16 351WHP on 91 oct pump gas
92 Sentra SE-R Almost stock
91 NX2000 SR20VE VVL Powered 177WHP almost stock (Girlfriends Car)

how many 1800 Honda engines come factory with over 200HP?....

Originally posted by GTS-4 Ben
how many 1800 Honda engines come factory with over 200HP?....

None from the factory. :)

This thread has unforunatly got way of track, if you want to compare a B18c or B16a with an SR20det then your wasteing your time.
The SR20det is a larger capacity engine, and oh yeah it has a bloody great Turbo hanging off the side of it. It will always have more hp, more Torque, and in the same car go faster in a straight line.

However someone wanted to compare the B series engines to the N/A Versions of the SR20.
In which case the SR20 is only just a better motor if you compare it to the non-VTEC versions found in the old Preludes/Accords and newer base model Integras.
However it can be found lacking if you want to compare it to the VTEC versions, but then theres a good reason for that.
So someone bought up the heavily misunderstood and little known VVL versions of the SR20 and SR16.
Ok, both have more peak hp than Honda engines, but in the real world in a street car that dosn't mean squat.
We've already had one member with a SR16ve powered Pulsar say he gets beaten by B16a powered civics, and its clear from the dyno plot of the SR20ve that was posted that it might have lots of peak hp, but it lacks a useable and stable power curve. Peak hp is useless if you can't get the engine to rev there when its under load.

I have driven many SR20 powered cars, and if it wasnt for a dork of a car dealer I would currently be driving one. They are a great engine, lots of Torque, very smooth etc. But from the factory they do lack the revablity of the B16a/18c, and they dont have anything like the same level of throttle response.

It also appears after having a good read of the net (and the G20 Forums) that the SR20 is not very well suited to accepting wild cam grinds. The valve train geometry dosn't like cams with lots of lift, and so expensive roller rocker sets have to be used in order to actualy get any hp out of them. Where as the B series engine will take extremly aggresive cam profiles with only a change of valves and springs.



So, to sum it all up:
We can't compare the Turbo versions of the SR20 with the B series engines. Its clear the SR20det is a better performance engine when Turbo'd
We can compare the N/A Versions of the SR20 and B series, and it appears that from the factory the SR20 is a better engine the early non-VTEC versions of the B series, but losses out if you want to tune them.
And the SR20 deffintly falls by the road side when compared with the VTEC versions.
Unless you want to compare the VVL versions, which are a great engine, but lack one simple thing. The Millions of dollars and thousands of hours Honda has spent on developing VTEC, and in doing so producing some of the best head port and combustion chamber designs ever. As a result the SR20/16vl might have more peak hp, but it lacks the smooth rev ablity of the B series engine's, or the instant throttle response, or the extremly flat and very long torque curve, and very smooth power curve.


and CHRIS200T I highly doubt you raced an NSX and beat it like it was going backwards. Especialy if you did it at over 70mph.
It sounds like the NSX driver had a good laugh and then backed off.

Originally posted by Moppie


None from the factory. :)


and CHRIS200T I highly doubt you raced an NSX and beat it like it was going backwards. Especialy if you did it at over 70mph.
It sounds like the NSX driver had a good laugh and then backed off.

You have no idea!!!!!!! My car revs out in 4th and 5th like yours rev's 2nd. Go drive your car rev it out in 2nd gear and wish you where in 4th & 5th gear and that will pritty much disribe how my car drive's. about 415 Crank HP Front Wheel drive aka little drive train loss car waigh's about 2400lbs. I know the guy was in it to win it becouse he was pissed as hell.. All I could do is laugh at him.. and yes by how rapidly his car disapeared in my rear view from 70+ MPH it looked like I took off on him as if he was siting still..

My race video to give you an idea. ME vs SS Impalia 5.7L V8 on NOS (so he was claiming) (ftp://www.sr20racing.com/Videos/shaggy/chris_racing1_new.avi)
This run was almost a year ago running on 92 oct pump gas at 15 PSI of boost. making somewhere around 350-360 WHP


Your claim about expencive Roller Rockers for DE motor's Thay come stock on allot of SR20DE and stock on all VE motor's so no its not expencive. I picked up a entire motor from a local yard here and droped it in my friends older 91 sentra for 250 bucks. If thats expencive to you sorry to hear that.

Take a look
SR20DE 97up all had roller rocker's and the motors are easy to find here in the state's (http://www.sr20racing.com/b/5.jpg)

You also where talking about the power band of VE motor vs B16 motor. Well SR20VE has way more usable power. 125 lb/ft of torque at 2000 rpm and goes up from there. a B16 will never make that anywhere in its powerband.

PS: I just raced one of my friend's who has a B18C1 Integra 170HP motor in his 92 CX Civic Hatchback witch is all of 2100 lbs and our NX2k at 2450 lbs . Out of the hole even. 2nd gear shift to top of 2nd gear 3/4 of a car lenth shift to 3rd another 1/4 car lenth GS-R's seem to have a good 3rd gear. Could not get any further then a car ahead but he was never able to gain any ground back. race was tell about 105-110 mph

So I sugest you try one of this car's befor you claim it has no power band or any pool. I have driven both . Meny different honda's from stock to moded to swap's.

Originally posted by CHRIS200T


You have no idea!!!!!!! My car revs out in 4th and 5th like yours rev's 2nd. Go drive your car rev it out in 2nd gear and wish you where in 4th & 5th gear and that will pritty much disribe how my car drive's. about 415 Crank HP Front Wheel drive aka little drive train loss car waigh's about 2400lbs. I know the guy was in it to win it becouse he was pissed as hell.. All I could do is laugh at him.. and yes by how rapidly his car disapeared in my rear view from 70+ MPH it looked like I took off on him as if he was siting still..

My race video to give you an idea. ME vs SS Impalia 5.7L V8 on NOS (so he was claiming) (ftp://www.sr20racing.com/Videos/shaggy/chris_racing1_new.avi)
This run was almost a year ago running on 92 oct pump gas at 15 PSI of boost. making somewhere around 350-360 WHP


Your claim about expencive Roller Rockers for DE motor's Thay come stock on allot of SR20DE and stock on all VE motor's so no its not expencive. I picked up a entire motor from a local yard here and droped it in my friends older 91 sentra for 250 bucks. If thats expencive to you sorry to hear that.

Take a look
SR20DE 97up all had roller rocker's and the motors are easy to find here in the state's (http://www.sr20racing.com/b/5.jpg)

You also where talking about the power band of VE motor vs B16 motor. Well SR20VE has way more usable power. 125 lb/ft of torque at 2000 rpm and goes up from there. a B16 will never make that anywhere in its powerband.

PS: I just raced one of my friend's who has a B18C1 Integra 170HP motor in his 92 CX Civic Hatchback witch is all of 2100 lbs and our NX2k at 2450 lbs . Out of the hole even. 2nd gear shift to top of 2nd gear 3/4 of a car lenth shift to 3rd another 1/4 car lenth GS-R's seem to have a good 3rd gear. Could not get any further then a car ahead but he was never able to gain any ground back. race was tell about 105-110 mph

So I sugest you try one of this car's befor you claim it has no power band or any pool. I have driven both . Meny different honda's from stock to moded to swap's.

Are you not from an English speaking country or do you just spell stuff that way on purpose? Not saying you are an idiot or anything, cause it is plain to see that you display some brilliance; just wondering...

Originally posted by 91HBSi
Are you not from an English speaking country or do you just spell stuff that way on purpose? Not saying you are an idiot or anything, cause it is plain to see that you display some brilliance; just wondering...

I think it has become a type of AF 'policy' to try not to comment on a member's style of typing. But I know that you didn't mean any ill by mentioning it.

Originally posted by CHRIS200T



Your claim about expencive Roller Rockers for DE motor's Thay come stock on allot of SR20DE and stock on all VE motor's so no its not expencive.

Yes, all the later versions of the SR20 engines came with Roller rockers, but it means you have to either get a later engine, or set of rockers from a latter engine if you have an older engine. (which a lot of people still do). And even then, the factory roller rocker set up will still not handle very wild cam grinds, certainly nothing as wild as the B series engines will.

And I know exactly how well my car revs out in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It will quite comfertbly hit the limiter in all 4 gears with out any trouble, and I know it would hit the limiter in 5th if it didnt hit the speed limiter first.

You sound like you know what your talking about, but only becasue it sounds like your repeating what others have told you.
And im not interested in your claims of 400+hp in your car, ohh so what.
I know its possible, and not that hard to get out of an SR20det, but I also know what work is required, and how much money it takes.

I also know my way around an engine, and have driven a good collection of exotic and highly tuned cars. And, well its nice to know what you think about the SR engines, but I happen to not only think that your wrong, but also know it.

Originally posted by Moppie


Yes, all the later versions of the SR20 engines came with Roller rockers, but it means you have to either get a later engine, or set of rockers from a latter engine if you have an older engine. (which a lot of people still do). And even then, the factory roller rocker set up will still not handle very wild cam grinds, certainly nothing as wild as the B series engines will.

And I know exactly how well my car revs out in 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th. It will quite comfertbly hit the limiter in all 4 gears with out any trouble, and I know it would hit the limiter in 5th if it didnt hit the speed limiter first.

You sound like you know what your talking about, but only becasue it sounds like your repeating what others have told you.
And im not interested in your claims of 400+hp in your car, ohh so what.
I know its possible, and not that hard to get out of an SR20det, but I also know what work is required, and how much money it takes.

I also know my way around an engine, and have driven a good collection of exotic and highly tuned cars. And, well its nice to know what you think about the SR engines, but I happen to not only think that your wrong, but also know it.

Your intitaled to your worng opionion

The SR isn't all that great.. give me a RB anyday ;)

Alot easier to get the power out of a RB20DET!

When I look at the N1 models of the SR20DE and VE, thats when I love nissan. They are amazing!

What engine/ car is the best touring car in England?

Originally posted by GTS-4 Ben
The SR isn't all that great.. give me a RB anyday ;)



Ill totaly agree with you on that one! The RB is an awsome engine. Theres nothing like the howl of a well tuned and balanced inline 6. :sun:

As for the N1 versions of the VE, well no one seems to know very much about them.
I do know they have lots of hp, 200hp from a 1600 is impressive, but have you ever seen one? And where are all the N1 powered pulsars?
You would think surly several would have made it to our shores, amongst all the other japas we get.
No, this sounds like a very highly tuned and very limited production engine, made for road legal race cars. Basicly Nissan taking advantage of the SR's strong bottom end so they could run a very highly tuned and very high compression cylinder head. Basicly an engine that is only at home on the race track, and will only run on the high octane fuel avliable in japan.
Im quite sure that if Honda had seen a need they could have quite easily done the same thing.
After all give me $5,000 and Ill go buy a set of cams, headers and a programable ECU and easily make 200hp from my B16a. Its not that hard to do, and it will run, and run well on only 96 octane fuel.


But if anyone has any links to sites on the SR16ve N1 then I would love to see them! I want to learn more about this engine.
(it would go rather well in my kit car you see...... :D )

I want to see someone do a Nissan for the FWD N/A under 2L class for NZ.

I think a Nissan can beat a 12.9 :D

Hi, i am a new member and live in Ireland. I imported a Pulsar VZ-R from Japan with the SR16 engine block.

In relation to which is faster between the B16A and this, none of you have taken into account that the SR16 is 100 kilos heavier !!!

The Pulsar VZ-R (N1) road car is the most powerful production 1.6 N/A engine in the world ever, far superior to any V-TEC ever. The VZ-R puts out 200 BHP and 135 ft/lb from a 1.6 N/A.

It doesnt break traction when it hits its powerband and it only seems to hit it at 6,800 RPM. At this point, the whole engine and exhaust note changes.

I've had V-TEC's and MIVEC's before this car.

well where do i start?
first off i guess i should say that currently the suzuki bikes make more hp and torque than any other four stroke mass produced piston engine. The new rotary is about to have higher specific output than any other car engine- ever. and no one said anything about two strokes. And when was the last time you saw someone towing with their S2000? And the spoon civic would be a valid comparison if they made more than 1000 of them and for about the same price. and does anyone care that the faster accelerating (as in the speed which it accelerates a given car) engine will be the one with more area under the curve? the way to guestimate this is to compare dyno charts- has anyone done this? No!
so stop bickering and get some facts!

one more thing. no car can match the viper for looks-italian or otherwise. And for less than an NSX too! for the price probably the miata, elise, or rx-7.

Originally posted by d-signed
the way to guestimate this is to compare dyno charts- has anyone done this? No!
so stop bickering and get some facts!

There some dyno charts posted back a few pages, and I have presented plenty of facts.
Theres even been another N1 pulsar owner say in a post that despite having 200hp it occurs accross such a narrow rev range that he can only just keep up with SiR Civics. (which have a much flatter Torque curve, and more area under the graph.)


And I am still waiting for someone to post more than just peak hp numbers for the SR16ve. It seems no one actualy knows anything about it.

SR20DE!:bandit: :smoka: :smoker2: :ylsuper

both r preety good but id go with the VTEC

I want an SR20DET in an Integra, just like in fast and the furious!!!! BAHAHAHAHA

Sorry, that movie should be a comedy

"Danger to Manifold!" - Holy shit! looks like my floorboards are about to pop out :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Guys, some information for your arguement. Here is some stuff on the VZR Pulsar and the NZR Pulsar (200hp).
VZR (http://www.apexjapan.com/j_sportcar/nis_pul_vzr97.html) and NZR Pulsar (http://www.apexjapan.com/j_sportcar/nis_pul_vzr98.html)

But really the best Pulsar for both style and performance would have to be the Autech Pulsar
http://www.tedtracey.co.nz/cars/02163.jpg

GO NISSAN!!

Interesting, however I always wonder about the accuracy of information when its hasnt been properly error checked.

Peak hp at 800rpm?

and according to that info the VZ-R only has 175hp, but then the other VZ-R has 200hp?

That, and the times for the 1/4 and 0-100 are not that special.
Thier about the same as times for a 160hp SiR Civic.
For a car with 200hp. Either Nissan got the gear ratios wrong, or the hp is so high up the rev range it comes at the expence of low end torque to the point that the cars performance is not as good as it could be.


What I want to see is some history on the car, production numbers etc.......



edit*the data for the 91 Civic SIR II is also wrong, he got the wrong hp and torque numbers, all of which are easily avliable from any number of sources, including www.honda.co.jp)

I own a Primera - its a wonderful car to drive. Powered by an SR20DE. I have to admit that Honda VTEC engines are impressive. The only reason I dont own one is because they look like grandmas shopping car. I do agree that they can look pretty dam good when kitted out - especially with all the kits out there. They are without a doubt the best production NA engines from Japan. Id have a Type R Integra over my Primera any day - but they are to expensive.
I disagree with all the arguements that you cant turbo a VTEC very well. In NZ, there is a turboed integra that does a 10.3 second quarter mile - NZ's fastest FWD. He also has the fastest FWD NA time of 12.85 (He just removed all the turbo gear) Its a great effort! In America the fastest FWD is a turboed civic doing 8 second passes!
So, even tho I own an SR20DE I have to admit the VTEC's are faster.

If you all want some more info on the NZR and VZR Pulsars check out GT2. VZR was the first to come out (175hp) and that was followed up with the NZR (200hp).

The solution - drop an H22 from a VTiR Prelude into a Nissan - the perfect car (Looks and power!)

Originally posted by AWD Primera


The solution - drop an H22 from a VTiR Prelude into a Nissan - the perfect car (Looks and power!)


Nice!!!!!!

Droped in the frount of a 5dr NZ new 89 SSS sentra it would be one hell of an awsome combo, or even better how about a F20c (from the S2000) in the frount of a 180b or 240Z :ylsuper


As for the shopping cart comment :finger:
Yeah I know exactly what your talking about. They are not the prettiest or the most stylish of cars. But its good to the see the look on GSR lancer owners faces when you go past them. :D (or Primeras of course)

and so far it seems that a computer game is the best source of info on the VZR so far!!! :lol2: :lol2:

I saw a VZR for sale at Drive Town in Panmure last week! Looks ugly two tone green and grey!!

Originally posted by AWD Primera
I saw a VZR for sale at Drive Town in Panmure last week! Looks ugly two tone green and grey!!

Really? :eek:
I hope its still there!
Ill give them a call tomorow and take it for a spin! :evillaugh

Drove past Drive Town today but couldnt see it in the lot. Also had a look at their internet site and it wasnt mentioned. It is in the Auto Trader dated 20th - 26th of June. They were asking $18,995

Originally posted by AWD Primera
They were asking $18,995

ouch! thats a bit on the steep side!
but yeah from what I can tell its gone as well. But then im not surprised, it'll probobly show up on queen street in a week or two with a full kit and 18inch wheels.
But whats interesting is that GT2 claims the VZ-R N1 used an SR20ve with 200hp and the VZR used the SR16ve with 175hp. hmmmmmmmm

I never really looked for VZR Pulsars, and now that I am, Im seeing them everywhere. Here is another one at Storey Motors in Panmure Street. The Body kits dont look anything special.

Link to the Site (http://www.autopoint.co.nz/marketplace/UsedCarDetail.asp?ID=2009879&Criteria=%40Make%3D%27NISSAN%27%2C+%40Keyword%3D%2 7VVL%27%2C+%40OrderBy%3D%27P1%27&NoOfRecs=4&PageNo=1&chkRows=500)

http://www.autopoint.co.nz/Content/Webphotos/204/NCWA/NCWA10440-204-350710.jpg

Here is another interesting link to a 2000 VZR. 2000 VZR (http://aoanissan.tripod.com/nispulsarvzr.html)

Originally posted by AWD Primera


The solution - drop an H22 from a VTiR Prelude into a Nissan - the perfect car (Looks and power!)

:o :confused: :bloated: :grey:

Pathetic.