Alternative oil source

[YogsVR4]

Now this seems promising.

http://www.discover.com/may_03/gther...e=featoil.html

[TexasF355F1]

Sounds like a good idea to me...I'm sure this will piss of PETA.

[texan]

I don't buy it. Specifically, I don't believe it can give you back anywhere near enough potential fuel stock to be on the upside of the energy equation; meaning it takes more energy to drive the system than you get back in fuel. I can't think of a single technology man has invented using heat or pressure that is actually on the upside of the energy equation, and this is the problem that really has to be solved in order to find a renewable energy source that works, and works for good. Fusion may be the answer, but thus far nobody's been able to get more energy out of a fusion reactor than they put into it. In fact nobody's even near near the zero offset mark yet.

So I am basically assuming that a process which normally takes hundreds to thousands of years to complete in nature, with the constant invesment of heat and pressure energy (as well as natural catalytic conversions and bacterial interplay), is not capable of being reproduced in a few hours without an enormous investment in energy.

[BLU CIVIC]

sounds intresting...but i'm skeptical.....wonder how much fuel this machine is using and how much pollutents it is creating

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by texan
I don't buy it. Specifically, I don't believe it can give you back anywhere near enough potential fuel stock to be on the upside of the energy equation; meaning it takes more energy to drive the system than you get back in fuel. I can't think of a single technology man has invented using heat or pressure that is actually on the upside of the energy equation, and this is the problem that really has to be solved in order to find a renewable energy source that works, and works for good. Fusion may be the answer, but thus far nobody's been able to get more energy out of a fusion reactor than they put into it. In fact nobody's even near near the zero offset mark yet.

So I am basically assuming that a process which normally takes hundreds to thousands of years to complete in nature, with the constant invesment of heat and pressure energy (as well as natural catalytic conversions and bacterial interplay), is not capable of being reproduced in a few hours without an enormous investment in energy.

It does not take more energy to produce the oil then what it gives. That is how they are calculating the dollar amount per barrel. Its the cost of the energy to make the oil and of course the other overhead. Remember, the stock being used already has a lot of energy in it, its just a matter of getting it into a form that can be used. The energy needed to get it into a usable state is low compared to the returns. An analogy could be gasoline in your car. Some battery energy is required to ignite the gas which produces more power then the battery itself.

The carbon in the stock has a ton of energy ready to be used.

[texan]

Originally posted by YogsVR4


It does not take more energy to produce the oil then what it gives. That is how they are calculating the dollar amount per barrel. Its the cost of the energy to make the oil and of course the other overhead.

That's the economic equation, I'm talking about the energy equation. That it costs less to both buy the feed stocks and funnel energy into the system to produce an output that can be sold for a profit is not in question. That it costs more, in terms of energy input than you recieve in output is my contention.

Basically I'm asking how long is this system sustainable without new sources of power? Let's try the experiment another way, rather than getting our power to heat and pressurize the system from outside sources, let's start with one full batch of refined product from the machine and put it back into the system. Process another full batch and let's see how much of the original we have left over. If there is any left then we have a system with a positive net energy equation; if we instead can't produce as much output as the original input (my contention) it's just another example of humans wasting energy. If the system is not ultimately self sustainable, there is no point in talking about it solving any of our energy problems. It definitely does turn wasted turkey guts into much better products, but we still have the age old problem of eventually running out of energy.

Ps- You also have to consider all the energy it takes to produce the turkey guts, harvest them into one area and transport them to the machine. From start to finish, every venture for producing energy costs more than it nets except for solar cells, wind machines and hydro plants.

[texan]

Originally posted by BLU CIVIC
sounds intresting...but i'm skeptical.....wonder how much fuel this machine is using and how much pollutents it is creating

It doesn't directly produce any pollutants, it's a closed system. It uses natural gas produced in the reactions to power the system (according to articles), but it fails to adress the power required to produce turkey guts. I realize this was not the point of the original article or Yog posting it, but I think it should be mentioned. This is a fantastic recycling project that drastically increases the overall system efficiency, but we humans need to find a permanent renewable energy resource that doesn't pollute to really solve civilization's greatest problems.

I personally think harnessing the Earth's magnetosphere is the ultimate answer, along with perhaps some future forms of harnessing solar power.

[Prelewd]

Just like in nature, this machine works like a cycle. In nature, you have a food chain, one animal dies, another eats it, gets energy, and dies, another animal eats it, etc etc etc. You just need something to start it going. Waste will always be an abundant resource. It takes several years to decompose a plastic bottle even. The article said that some of the the gas will go back into the machine, powering it, and you get the remainder of product from the machine which can be sold or whatever. You energy comes from the waste. It's not something that sustains itself totally with energy leftover, but it's a damn good step to getting there. I figure if we can clean up landfills with this, and turn them into something useful, then it's worth it.

I think some thought should go into gravity as a power source as well. It takes energy to lift your arm and hold it there, but it takes the same amount of energy to push down on your arm in the form of gravity.

[texan]

Originally posted by Prelewd
I think some thought should go into gravity as a power source as well. It takes energy to lift your arm and hold it there, but it takes the same amount of energy to push down on your arm in the form of gravity.

Hydro plants effectively use gravity to generate the largest amount of clean power currently possible. Other than the change in ecology of a region by introducing large damns, they are still pretty amazing.

Unfortunately gavity itself is an extremely weak force (probably the weakest in all of physics), that's why I mentioned the magnetosphere; it's a much stronger force.

[rsxer45]

Originally posted by Prelewd

I think some thought should go into gravity as a power source as well. It takes energy to lift your arm and hold it there, but it takes the same amount of energy to push down on your arm in the form of gravity.

Gravity is used as a power source: hydroelectric power (i.e. from a waterfall or a dam).

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

I this is true it will reduce development into new fuel sources.

I don't mean something that is cleaner i don't care about that i am talking about subtances that produce lots of energy in small quantites and the developement of new engine designs (not the internal combustion) but something else that'll produce lots of thrust force torque whatever that can move something large with relative ease.

Anyways it would screw up the OPEC cartel

[PreludePassion]

On thing to remember with the energy needed to get the raw materials is that they are using pre-existing waste products. There is no additional cost to producing them, as they would be there already. The only possible added costs would be in buying (which I don't see as a problem right now, but will be in the future as people realize they can make money off of their garbage) and transporting the raw materials. Even if those costs become significant, there is still a great benefit to just being able to do something useful with all of the trash. There is tremendous potential in this machine. If it performs as well as they state, great, wonderful. If not, it is still providing a very valuable service, and I would be willing to invest in it. On another thought... this might be interesting to use as a death penalty... get something useful out of all of those death row criminals that we're paying for...

[NSX-R-SSJ20K]

Originally posted by PreludePassion
On thing to remember with the energy needed to get the raw materials is that they are using pre-existing waste products. There is no additional cost to producing them, as they would be there already. The only possible added costs would be in buying (which I don't see as a problem right now, but will be in the future as people realize they can make money off of their garbage) and transporting the raw materials. Even if those costs become significant, there is still a great benefit to just being able to do something useful with all of the trash. There is tremendous potential in this machine. If it performs as well as they state, great, wonderful. If not, it is still providing a very valuable service, and I would be willing to invest in it. On another thought... this might be interesting to use as a death penalty... get something useful out of all of those death row criminals that we're paying for...

i don't think anyone would be able to sell their trash

They have to pay for it to be taken away already they'd probably let it go for free

[tomlong]

200 tons of turkey waste a day is a lot of turkey parts; however I do not believe that the oil produced by this type of source would be near enough to take care of even one major cities needs.

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by tomlong
200 tons of turkey waste a day is a lot of turkey parts; however I do not believe that the oil produced by this type of source would be near enough to take care of even one major cities needs.

Clearly just the turkey waste would not be enough. But, in conjunction with other organic wastes such as those mentioned in the article (sewege and other animal waste) it might be enough to offset a fair portion of light oil needs. I doubt it would replace the need for traditional oil completely, but it would not be insignificant.