OK this is my first Mclaren F1 post ever

[Dr.D]

Hi to you all, I am honored to be allowed to post in your forum. I am one of the people who have been reading and checking these threads every single day for the past two years without being a member and I saw other knowledgeable members saying that no question is too dumb and not to be afraid to ask questions. So, here is my question and BTW I'm amazed at how much you guys know in these threads.

The F1 is my favorite supercar of all time and many others in fact EVO rated it the #1 majority pick to date. Since Mclaren knows how loved this car is by the vast majority of car enthusiasts, why doesn't Mclaren just update the F1 to meet modern standards? I understand it wasn't designed to have bells and whistles but why not update the breaking system for example or go with a turbo? I understand Murray wanted the F1 to be normally aspirated for reliability but todays technology has improved and turbos are wonderful now.

The car already is such a masterpiece, it just seems sad to let such a legendary vehicle fade into the past. The F1 was so far ahead of its time it remained the quickest production car for 12 years. I've never even heard of a supercar holding that title for so long. I just can't help but think the F1 could be updated. The new P4 doesn't nearly have the same zest as the F1 and maybe it wasn't meant to be, but if Mclaren wanted a new car, why didn't they strive to surpass the original? Anyway, thank you all for the wonderful information. I have learned so much about the F1 because of you guys. Once again I'm extremely grateful to you all.

[Peloton25]

Welcome to the forum! Everyone is allowed to post - some people just prefer not too, which is fine but certainly not preferable at least to me.

I am glad to see another individual 'make the leap'.


A few thoughts on updating the F1:

• If there is one thing the F1 doesn't need, it's more power.
  
  
• Bringing the F1 to 'modern standards' would force compromise into the design, thus dilluting its focus and purity. Current laws for vehicle safety and emissions around the world have moved pretty far in the two decades since the F1 was developed and their is no way the design from a visual perspective could remain the same now. Airbags are standard in most places in the world, so add the weight of that system and others like. Suddenly the F1 might actually need more power just to keep pace with its former self.
  
  
• Current owners would be none-to-pleased if McLaren were to somehow restart production and offer an updated car. Where would that leave them? 'Alienated' is pretty much the word I'm thinking of - but if it played out as you suggest, you'd see significant depreciation in the original cars.
  
  
• McLaren have developed some upgrades for the F1 over the years - xenon headlamps being one - but to develop an item like a carbon-ceramic braking system would take a tremendous amout of testing, equaling time and money. Those new brakes could compromise other components on the car requiring even further changes and costs.
  
  I seem to recall from the early years in this forum that McLaren aren't interested in undertaking that effort even though it was something Gordon wanted for the F1 originally, and the brakes are the one element of the car that normally earns low marks in relation to present technology on today's modern exotics.
  
  
• I don't exactly see the F1 fading into the past. Certainly other cars have eclipsed it's performance benchmarks, but it seems to be holding its own or even excelling in the collector car world. How many other supercars from the 1990's are trading at 3x their original price? I think the answer is 'None'.

= = = = = =

McLaren's goals with the MP4-12C are similar but also quite different than those of the F1 project. With the F1, it was something the company had never really done before and the goal of Murray and team was to build the 'best' with little to no compromises. There seems to have been a blank check made available for the F1s effort, and return on investment wasn't exactly high on their list of concerns.

You could say that the new car is built as a more realistic offering in today's market. Their goal is to re-establish McLaren's road car business in a profitable fashion; doing so with a brand new car that falls right into a price and performance brakcet occupied by some of today's best and most popular exotics. From all that I have read and seen so far, it seems the new McLaren won't disappoint, even when compared to things like Ferrari's brand new 458 Italia. It also seems that while the design team lacked input from Gordon Murray this time around, that they still maanged to adhere to many of his themes of great packaging and low weight. The car also features some inovative technologies like brake steer and a first-ever in this price class, carbon fiber tub formed as a single piece using new carbon technologies. So while it might not move the bar in comparison to the F1, it does have its own achievements.

Sure, the comparison to an F1 does make the new car appear to be a little lacking, but it wasn't McLaren's goal in this next phase of the company to build a replacement for the car we here all desire so greatly. If McLaren had just gone after the idea of eclipsing the F1 with their next car, I'm not sure that would have worked so well (sequels are usually never as good as the first movie), and I am fairly certain it wouldn't do as much to establish the brand and make the company viable longterm.

You can anticipate that if the MP4-12C is successful (and I suspect it will be) that McLaren's next offering might be even lower on the scale of performance cars - something along the lines of 911 Turbo competition. Then if both those cars have met all their sales and performance targets and the brand is well established, we can expect them to take another shot at the top step of the hypercar podium in round #3. Perhaps this would occur towards the end of this decade.

I think their biggest hurdle will actually be establishing a new McLaren dealer network for the cars worldwide. They never had one for the F1 but with the low volume it wasn't entirely necesary. Now they are talking about a goal of building several thousand cars per year eventually, and to do that you need a very good plan for selling and supporting the cars longterm. Someone who is looking at buying this car versus the Ferrari is not going to be satisfied with a service facility on each coast in the United States like the F1 has.

As you can see, it was a pretty thought provoking first post and that's my ...okay more like two dollars.

>8^)
ER

[hurstg01]

DR.D

Originally Posted by Peloton25

If there is one thing the F1 doesn't need, it's more power.

Many an F1 owner has stated that .

Originally Posted by Peloton25

McLaren have developed some upgrades for the F1 over the years - xenon headlamps being one

..bigger radiators, uprated air conditioning system etc etc

Originally Posted by Peloton25

How many other supercars from the 1990's are trading at 3x their original price? I think the answer is 'None'.
>8^)
ER

A good point Erik -

Jag XJ220? um, no
Ferrari F40 - no, but its still classed as a good investment
Ferrari F50 - see above
Bugatti EB110 - no

Unless it is a very rare racing example with proven race provenance / owner provenance that has been adapted for the road, but at the moment I am struggling to think of one

[Dr.D]

Wow! Alright, you guys have shed some bright light on my thinking here and what's been said makes good sense. I recall that chassis #073 is about the most highly modified street legal version of the F1 and that only one other has been made in a similar fashion. Now I understand what you're saying about weight being of extreme importance with extra mods. I do have another question though and maybe some others later. Would there be any handling advantage of using a slightly larger rim and a lower profile tire for the F1? The street legal versions of the F1 appear to have pretty thick tires compared to todays supercars. Thank you for all the comments. This is why I always read these forums.

[Peloton25]

There would certainly be an advantage, but keep in mind that everything was designed to work together as a single unit. If you just replaced the wheels with a larger version and decreased the aspect ratio of the tires to maintain the same overall diameter, the tires would definitely perform differently, but now the suspension would need to be stiffened up to really take advantage of those new tires. Just doing the wheels/tires alone could actually have a negative effect on handling at the limit.

The owner of chassis #040 - in his quest to improve the F1s handling - could give a lesson in all of this specific to the McLaren. He's made a lot of comments on it over at PistonHeads in the many threads that have focused on his car. If you are not familiar with flemke or those thread, we could certainly provide some links.

I have driven other more mundane cars where the only change made was to fit a stickier set of tires, sometimes with larger wheels for a lower profile sidewall, and they do have more grip, but the stock suspension doesn't usually cope well with it. If the stock suspension is of poor design or worn out, it only increases the feeling of uneasyness in the car.

>8^)
ER

[webslinger283]

You might get some extra performace out of changing the rims and tires so that the aspect ration of the tire is smaller...however if you do that the ride comfort would be greatly compromised, and seeing how this was DESIGNED to be a STREET car not a race car ride comfort was of high importance....hence the subplane shear center subframes (refer to http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=976371 for a copy of the suspension patent paperwork) for the front suspension. I believe the reason for those is so they could stiffen up the springs without comprimising ride comfort. You would be amazed how much more you can feel the bumps in the road if you simply change your normal car tires to low aspect tires.

Erik i would love to see some of those links you speak about at piston heads about the suspension change.

[Dr.D]

I'm getting great information here. YES! I would very much like to see the link regarding tires an suspension if that's not too much trouble. After listening to this thread I am going to do some research on Chassis #040 as well. I have another question if it's not too much trouble. I noticed that there are actually six LM's but oddly there are vents or scoops on the side of the body in front of the rear wheels but not on all the LM's. A couple have the vents and a couple don't? Are these for cooling the engine or breaks or something? The road car does not appear have them.

[Peloton25]

Visually, the bodywork of all of the LMs are identical and there are no vents that are either there or not there on any of them. The prototype does have four little portholes in the upper edge of the quarter windows, but otherwise the 6 cars are all the same.

I suspect what is confusing you would be photos of one of the 6 F1 GTRs that have been resprayed in Papaya Orange. If you post or provide links to the photos showing what you're referring to I'd be happy to confirm the chassis number on them and help set you straight.

I'll dig up the links to the PistonHead threads a little later, but to warn you in advance - all sorts of questions are sprinkled throughout their many pages and it is DAYS and DAYS worth of reading to get through them all or find the specific areas where the suspension changes are discussed.

>8^)
ER

[dbsf1]

Originally Posted by Dr.D

oddly there are vents or scoops on the side of the body in front of the rear wheels but not on all the LM's. A couple have the vents and a couple don't?

I think what you might be getting at is the fact that the LMs had little vents, or scoops, just infront of the rear wheel on one side only.

As evidenced by these two shots of the exact same car (XP1LM):

http://cdn-www.rsportscars.com/image...m95_031600.jpg

http://www.popularcars.us/mclaren-f1...ren-f1-lm0.jpg

Peace

[Peloton25]

I suspect what he might be referring to is the smaller vent, seen here on the side of GTR #11R, that the LMs don't have.



>8^)
ER

[astonmartindbs001]

Hello Dr.D, and welcome to our F1 community. Well, I guess it's time to play spot the difference again, isn't it?

While not 100% relevant to your query, perhaps this picture might be able to help you distinguish between the F1 LMs and F1 GTRs in the future.

On the left is F1 LM XP1LM at the McLaren Technology Center, and on the right is one of the road-converted GTRs at a storage/maintenance facility somewhere in the UK.



Clearly marked out are the frontal visual differences between the LM and the GTR. The LM hood contains a single twin-integrated cooling air intake, whereas the GTR has two separate intakes in the hood. Furthermore, the wheelarch cooling louvres on the LM have three vent slits, whereas those on the GTR have five vent slits. And since no road-converted GTR is allowed to wear the 'F1LM McLaren F1LM' banner on its' windshield (presumably), that is another telltale distinguishing difference.

Also, notice that on F1 GTR #06R just behind the orange GTR, there is a larger and more pronounced roof-mounted engine air intake, as well as a larger rear wing spoiler with different profiling, these having been part of the 1996 F1 GTR upgrades package. One such 1996-generation F1 GTR that was road-converted and repainted in McLaren Historic Papaya Orange was #011R, previously on sale at Germany's KS Autohandel, now sold and having gone off to somewhere in Northern Italy, presumable for a spot of Italian supercar hunting.

Pictures of #011R when it was on display at the Sthlm Auto Fair along with several other exotic hypercars can be found here: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...gt2-gt3-2.html

I hope it helps, it's a pleasure to meet you.

[Dr.D]

This forum is overwhelming. You guys are each really kind to take the time to answer my questions. No need to cover the wheel thread now Peloton25. I've done some reading today since listening to you, so no worries, thank you. With regard to the vents, all the comments and pictures provided answered my question but I had no idea the vent was only on one side. That explains why some have it and some don't and it also explains that it must be for air to the engine. It depends on which side the picture was taken. I also noticed the smaller vent and was wondering about that too. I think what I've learned most about my first post is how little I actually know. 06R must be the Harrods car from the 1995 Lemans. That's the car Andy Wallace drove! I've watched the youtube cockpit cam video, literally about a hundred times. Wallace makes it look easy doing about 2 bucks down Mulsanne's straight. I also didn't realize that the 1995 Lemans was on youtube. Since the other post was made, I've watched it twice and the Pursuit Of Perfection about a dozen times. Lastly may I ask each of you which chassis is your very favorite and why? I love the LM and #073 because as far as I know, it's the most customized F1 unless there's something else you guys are going to school me on again.

[Peloton25]

I am totally overwhelmed by this forum sometimes too.

#073 has a near twin with chassis #018, seen recently in this thread.

If you have enjoyed those other two videos, be sure to watch 'The Car's The Star - McLaren F1' as well if you have not already had the luck to find it. There's four parts - here's a link to the first one and you'll find a link to each of the next ones in the Related Videos section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1Y7eBsO6bM

GTR #06R was the Bell/Bell/Wallace GTR from the 1995 LeMans race. It actually continued racing under the Harrods sponsorship for 1996 as well, and then was sold and reliveried for a few races in 1997 before a crash caused that new team to replace the car with a Lotus Elise GT1.

On your question of favorites - I am going to cheat a little and borrow something I just wrote a few days ago on another forum where the same question was posed. I haven't changed my mind since, so I think that's okay to do.

= = = = = =

Sort of like asking a parent to choose between their children, isn't it?

Kidding...

Frankly, a standard road car would suit me just fine. If they'd never gone racing with the F1 that's really the only variation of the car that would probably exist, as every other variant was born out of some connection to the F1 GTRs. Initially the plan was for just 5 racers, and in the end they built 28 in three varieties. Actually, initially the plan wasn't to race the F1 at all, but I think it is great that they decided to, and amazing the results that were achieved, especially as the competition increased from the likes of Porsche and Mercedes Benz.

But back to the F1 road car and why I covet it the most. It was Gordon Murray's vision, crafted in his head over several decades and developed further by a team of engineers over a 3-4 year period under his direction. It is the purest form of the car and that which all others are based on. If the road car had been less spectacular, all the variants would have been less by the same measure most likely. From the pen of Peter Stevens' without anything tacked on, and with the fantastic normally aspirated engine of BMW Motorsport's Paul Rosche and team. It is the unique and wonderful McLaren F1.

It is raw, yet elegant; its increbily fast while at the same time being docile if you want and have that much self control. It carries three with luggage on a road trip without fuss or discomfort. The packaging is simplistic, yet genius. The controls are positioned just as they should be and give the driver great feedback. The view out the front for the driver is second to none. I think if someone were truly brave enough to do so, they could drive it every single day.

I certainly appreciate all other forms of the F1 - even the longtails, as I understand why they were a necessity, even if I don't particularly favor their look as a road car with the F1 GTs. The LMs are of course fantastic, and I can understand why some would rank them highest as they are the race car for the street and truly exotic looking with all that exposed carbon and the shocking Papaya paint. They have more power and less weight, offer no compromises and a truly tremendous sound without a proper exhaust silencer or sound deadening throughout the car. I'm sure an experience in one would leave your body tingling in a way the F1 road car just can't.

Even the pair of road cars with the LM-spec engine fitted are probably as fantastic as they should be, designed as the ultimate F1 variant, and also ending up being the most exclusive. They mix all the pleasure of the finest F1 road car with that extra 50 or so bhp to really knock out almost any competitor. But I prefer the pure form of the original.

The GTRs did an excellent service for the McLaren F1 legacy - with an overall win at LeMans in their first attempt, and several other successes too numerous to list - they gave the McLaren F1 that extra level of credibility that most other new supercars, short of the ones from Ferrari, seem to lack these days. Pagani's are impressive, and they make a race version, but what have they won? Koenigsegg has talked of doing similar with no results so far. Lets not even discuss some of the other pretenders on the market. You can even have your GTR converted for use the road - satisfying a similar urge provided by an F1 LM for far less than the cost of entry on one of them. Just don't look to bring along two passengers like you can in the LM or road cars, as those GTRs are only able to make room for one in addition to the driver.

Short of all of that you can have your standard road car fitted with the High Downforce Kit to give the look of an LM or GTR without all those compromises. There are performance benefits to this, but there's something kind of 'hey look at me' about those compared to an unmolested road car; where even though I am wowed by them as I should be, I'd still prefer the untouched purity of the F1s original design.

Yes, in the end I'd take a standard road car first and foremost, unless I could afford a sample platter of sorts like the ZAZ Collection photo in post #479 shows. One note on that - I'd probably swap his F1 GT for a longtail GTR, as to me the longer bodywork seems a little awkward without that rear wing.

As for exactly which F1 - that becomes a tough decision. My two favorites have been XP4 and #051 for quite a long time. XP4 is Electric Blue and as the 4th road car prototype is now the second oldest F1 remaining in existence. Gordon Murray's XP3 the only earlier car. Of course I like XP4's owner a lot - he uses the car, shares it with others, and is quite enthused over it, so I'd never want to take it from him nor do I think it's 'for sale' at any price at the moment. Getting XP4 would be good though, because it is already here and legal in the USA.

Chassis #051 is dark green, and has a unique but appealing green leather and suede interior. I might have the red center section of the drivers seat reskinned with black, but otherwise I'd be quite pleased with it as-is. Green is a color I often like, and since Liam Howlett of 'The Prodigy' fame had the gall to repaint the only "British Racing Green" F1 ever built (#023) in a shade of Silver, of all colors; and the original owner of the "Mercedes Green Velvet" F1 (#073) had his repainted Orange; then other than XP5, chassis #051 is now the only green option left on an F1 road car unless you want to pay for a respray of something. And that's the nice thing about this car too - I believe anyway, that it is still exactly as it looked when it originally left the factory, and there just aren't too many F1s left that you can say that about nowadays.

Another nice thing about #051 is its one of those F1s that just sits around today so I'd like to think I'd be doing the car a favor. Since late 2005 it has been in Japan, seen only once outside of the second-floor showroom of LightAuto1 where it lives in the corner by the window most of the time. I have been told that a price slightly higher that $3M might be enough to pry it away from its current owner, but I am still a lot short of that amount when I check my accounts.

Here are a sample of the better pics that exist of #051 which unfortunately isn't very many, starting with some from its time in Europe. The first two were taken July 5th, 2005 just a day or two before it left for Japan with GTR #11R in the foreground of the first image. The last two show the car in its current 'resting place' in Japan - waiting for me, I think.















>8^)
ER

[Sami Aaltonen]

Originally Posted by Dr.D

This forum is overwhelming. You guys are each really kind to take the time to answer my questions.

06R must be the Harrods car from the 1995 Lemans. That's the car Andy Wallace drove! I've watched the youtube cockpit cam video, literally about a hundred times. Wallace makes it look easy doing about 2 bucks down Mulsanne's straight. I also didn't realize that the 1995 Lemans was on youtube. Since the other post was made, I've watched it twice and the Pursuit Of Perfection about a dozen times. Lastly may I ask each of you which chassis is your very favorite and why? I love the LM and #073 because as far as I know, it's the most customized F1 unless there's something else you guys are going to school me on again.

Welcome to the Forum Dr.D!

Yes, this forum is one of the best I know. I mentionded this that Erik's first wake up post. If you have question, here people will help you. I was amazed when I was in your position an year ago.

I asumme, you found those Pursuit of Perfection and those 6 brilliant Le Mans' clips that DMFerrari's post? where I got a bit too exited to wrote those links. They are in that video Clips Thread also, but recentely they have been mentioned that DMFerrari's Thread.
If you didn't knew those before, and it was a new material for you; brilliant news that you liked those! Great!!!!!

You asked which chassis is my everyones favorite?
Well..... I love XP1 LM and #01R. Defenitely. No question about it!

[Dr.D]

I cant believe it! I spent 30 minutes writing a detailed reply to you guys and the page didn't go through, then the data was lost when I clicked back. I should have saved it first. I can not thank you guys enough for sharing such detailed information. Peloton, I completely respect and understand your love for the original standard F1 and the pictures you've shared are moth watering. It was Murray's original vision. I also watched the video link you gave and I've seen that about twenty times

Sami yes, I got the Lemans video from the link provided and LOVED it, thank you! Lemans was the greatest ending to the mclaren F1 story and the legacy of the LM series. Do either of you guys know what chassis number this is and where the car might be now. OMG the sound of that V12! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UctvW26ouJw

Once again, Peloton, I see how much heart you have for the F1, it really shows. You guys are great!