can somebody please explain.

[taranaki]

Why are there people in this forum who persist with the notion that those of us who oppose the war are automatically anti-everything American.?

I've been accused of it many times,and I've also seen millardo and cbass treated with the same ignorance.
Is ids too complex for you guys to understand that it is possible to be anti-war and anti-Bush without automatically being pro-Saddam,pro-commie pro-Clinton,or whatever other half-baked accusations you want to throw in?

[Prelewd]

Well, what do you like about the US? No satire.

[taranaki]

Originally posted by Prelewd
Well, what do you like about the US? No satire.

If you've got a week to spare,I'd happily tell you.Every country has its own culture,its own beliefs,its own humor and its own customs.On a smaller scale,there are different ways of doing thigs in different parts of that same counrty.I like thecynical fatalism of New York humor,Ilike the beaches of california,Italk to a good many Americans in a few different forumsand they're really neat people.....but still,there seem to be a disproportionate number of my American friends who judge a stranger by his political beliefs above all else,and believe that their own political beliefs represent every decent American citizen.No offence is intended to anyone by this observation,but what is it that is so precious to Americans about their country that they can't let a stranger challenge their thinking?

[T4 Primera]

Some of the following are very general statements and as such do not apply in all cases. I have included conditions on some statements made to make it clear that I'm not just being sarcastic.:

I like the idea that anything is possible in America (which encompasses the phrase "only in America") and the ideal of the American dream.

I like the ease with which Americans extend their trust (although it also worries me at times that they trust their administration too much)

I like the way that some Americans are so uninhibited in expressing their emotions - especially in California. (NZ people by stark contrast are the epitomy of understatement - but I like that too)

I like the way American people assume the basic good in others.

I like the way that no matter what a person does, they will never be the weirdest person in New York.

I like the technological advancements into space exploration and renewable energy that would not have been possible without the resources and development skills that America provides.

I like that the general population who do support the war do so for reasons of justice and freedom rather than for less noble reasons (although I do not see the administration the same way)

I like that Dennis Connor (the son of a fisherman become multimillionaire, the first American to lose the Americas Cup..and win it back again...who used every dirty trick in the book, became known as Dirty Dennis, was an unbearable winner) was absolutely, completely and unreservedly gracious in defeat. And that he was big enough to go on NZ national TV and apologise to the nation for some of his behaviour. When he shed a tear at finally losing the cup, my opinion of him changed from that of a ruthless, win at all costs egomaniac to that of a man who had given everything he could possibly give in the pursuit of a goal.

I like the car culture (of course)

I like that the formation of the nation ended slavery.

I like that most Americans realise how fortunate they are to live in the US. (but I fear that your freedom and safety is being placed in harms way, and eroded in small increments, by the actions of your administration)

I like that one of your Presidents took the intelligence agencies to task, (unfortunately his term was tragically cut short)

I like that Americans are willing to take risks. (although sometimes your administration risks more than is theirs to risk)

I like the internet (even though it was conceived by the US military) and the fact that it cannot be controlled by anyone or anything.

I like the fact that this list is far longer than I have time to type out.

[GTStang]

Maybe this helps explain. Think of America as a family, in your family you can pick on your younger siblings and call them names and fight. And you know your family can be wierd and not perfec but you still love your family. But if someone outside your family tries the same thing, your going to set them striaght real quick.
This does not mean that outsiders should be able to make observation but they should be catious and respectful when they do. Because just like your family, American's love thier country.(Or Most)

These lines between anit-war/american and pro-war/american are very fine and often easily inadvertently crossed by both parties. I have seen posts that are blindly patriotic and one's that reek of anti-amerianism. If you think back I'm sure you would probably realize you have been victim to writing one or the other.

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by taranaki
Why are there people in this forum who persist with the notion that those of us who oppose the war are automatically anti-everything American.?

I've been accused of it many times,and I've also seen millardo and cbass treated with the same ignorance.
Is ids too complex for you guys to understand that it is possible to be anti-war and anti-Bush without automatically being pro-Saddam,pro-commie pro-Clinton,or whatever other half-baked accusations you want to throw in?

I find that misleading. I can make the same arguement that you and cbass are very anti-american. I am not going to go back and dig out all the posts, but I'm sure you'll recall your comments you've made. But this is one that sticks out in my mind quite well. "the US is responsible for the biggest acts of terrorism in WWII" How about cbass and the "hate american capitolism" and his wonderful "I like Saddam more than Bush too" comment.

Again, I am not going to fish out all the items, but saying you like america and then bash us over the head with false accusations, outright lies and complain about how anything we dont agree with you on makes us wrong and evil, does not add up. I disagree with many other countries however (especially France) but I dont go out of my way to complain about things that they are doing and have done every chance I get. Sure I post a things about other countries but I can count on you or cbass is to compare it to something you don't like in the USA. Nothing another country has/or is doing can stand on its own with you people.

I am anti-UN and I admit it. The French piss me off and I admit it. I am sorry I wasted my time learning their language. The fact you guys won't admit how anti-american you are doesn't make it less obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

[TexasF355F1]

Originally posted by YogsVR4


I find that misleading. I can make the same arguement that you and cbass are very anti-american. I am not going to go back and dig out all the posts, but I'm sure you'll recall your comments you've made. But this is one that sticks out in my mind quite well. "the US is responsible for the biggest acts of terrorism in WWII" How about cbass and the "hate american capitolism" and his wonderful "I like Saddam more than Bush too" comment.

Again, I am not going to fish out all the items, but saying you like america and then bash us over the head with false accusations, outright lies and complain about how anything we dont agree with you on makes us wrong and evil, does not add up. I disagree with many other countries however (especially France) but I dont go out of my way to complain about things that they are doing and have done every chance I get. Sure I post a things about other countries but I can count on you or cbass is to compare it to something you don't like in the USA. Nothing another country has/or is doing can stand on its own with you people.

I am anti-UN and I admit it. The French piss me off and I admit it. I am sorry I wasted my time learning their language. The fact you guys won't admit how anti-american you are doesn't make it less obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

Just because Taranki and CBass do not agree with American government dosen't mean they don't like Americans. I'm sure Taranki and CBass probably have American friends they know personally. In a way we're all friends here, correct? And T4 what you say about americans extending their trust is quite true. While others trust easier than others, I can usually pick those people out who I know I can trust and who I can't. I thank everyone for sharing their thoughts about what they like about america, thank you.

[inferno]

As I mentioned before naki, your dislike for Bush has clouded your vision on a variety of subjects that we are discussing in this forum. That is why it appears that you don't like America/Americans. We understand you don't like Bush, but you could stick to the topics in each thread instead of insulting him in every thread. If you want to bash Bush, make a thread specifically for that. Another problem is that a few members including yourself have resorted to name calling instead of using valid points. Doing that solves nothing and clouds everyone's judgement. Thank you and have a nice day.

[YogsVR4]

Originally posted by TexasF355F1

Just because Taranki and CBass do not agree with American government dosen't mean they don't like Americans. I'm sure Taranki and CBass probably have American friends they know personally. In a way we're all friends here, correct? And T4 what you say about americans extending their trust is quite true. While others trust easier than others, I can usually pick those people out who I know I can trust and who I can't. I thank everyone for sharing their thoughts about what they like about america, thank you.

While I don't always agree with our politicians - they are still Americans. Our armed forces are Americans. Our business people are Americans. Picking one group and bashing them over and over again is bashing Americans. I understand going after someone you dont like (Bush in this case) but its the cumulative attack on organization after organization that build the fabric of America that leads to the anti-american view. I don't consider people who disagree with us or really hate something here as being anti-american. Its the shear volume that does that.

[T4 Primera]

I like this thread and the sentiments that have been expressed along these lines in other threads. Already I observe an increasing level of civility and respect for opposing views along with a decrease in emotive name calling and labeling in this forum.

Some people are presumed to be anti-american. Sometimes they bring this upon themselves when emotion and ego influence the way they articulate their posts. I admit to be prone to this flaw at times - nobody is perfect.

Meanwhile some people are not as articulate as others in expressing how they see things. This is where it is important to consider very carefully what they are trying to express - instead of leaping on every little crack in their dialogue. Conversely, some people are so articulate that they can be obviously wrong and yet make a very convincing argument that they are right. I admit to being guilty of this too at times.

Now here is my most important point. Some people are genuinely anti-american. But that does not mean there is no value in what they have to say. The value in considering their views is that we can gain understanding into how they came to feel this way. We don't have to agree with them. However, if we don't at least listen and allow them to express their greivances, then we will never understand why these sentiments exists at all. It takes a little empathy to understand how things are for someone else - and it can be done without agreeing with their reasoning.

Consider this next time you post: Is it your intention to win an argument and be right? or is your intention to help others understand your perspective and to gain insight into theirs?

Personally, I sincerely hope that the passing of time will prove my views incorrect. This hope exists because, even though I don't get to be right, it will mean that the world has become a much better place than the place I think it is becoming.

[rsxer45]

Originally posted by T4 Primera
I like this thread and the sentiments that have been expressed along these lines in other threads. Already I observe an increasing level of civility and respect for opposing views along with a decrease in emotive name calling and labeling in this forum.

Some people are presumed to be anti-american. Sometimes they bring this upon themselves when emotion and ego influence the way they articulate their posts. I admit to be prone to this flaw at times - nobody is perfect.

Meanwhile some people are not as articulate as others in expressing how they see things. This is where it is important to consider very carefully what they are trying to express - instead of leaping on every little crack in their dialogue. Conversely, some people are so articulate that they can be obviously wrong and yet make a very convincing argument that they are right. I admit to being guilty of this too at times.

Now here is my most important point. Some people are genuinely anti-american. But that does not mean there is no value in what they have to say. The value in considering their views is that we can gain understanding into how they came to feel this way. We don't have to agree with them. However, if we don't at least listen and allow them to express their greivances, then we will never understand why these sentiments exists at all. It takes a little empathy to understand how things are for someone else - and it can be done without agreeing with their reasoning.

Consider this next time you post: Is it your intention to win an argument and be right? or is your intention to help others understand your perspective and to gain insight into theirs?

Personally, I sincerely hope that the passing of time will prove my views incorrect. This hope exists because, even though I don't get to be right, it will mean that the world has become a much better place than the place I think it is becoming.

Well said .

[GTStang]

Originally posted by T4 Primera
I like this thread and the sentiments that have been expressed along these lines in other threads. Already I observe an increasing level of civility and respect for opposing views along with a decrease in emotive name calling and labeling in this forum.

Some people are presumed to be anti-american. Sometimes they bring this upon themselves when emotion and ego influence the way they articulate their posts. I admit to be prone to this flaw at times - nobody is perfect.

Meanwhile some people are not as articulate as others in expressing how they see things. This is where it is important to consider very carefully what they are trying to express - instead of leaping on every little crack in their dialogue. Conversely, some people are so articulate that they can be obviously wrong and yet make a very convincing argument that they are right. I admit to being guilty of this too at times.

Now here is my most important point. Some people are genuinely anti-american. But that does not mean there is no value in what they have to say. The value in considering their views is that we can gain understanding into how they came to feel this way. We don't have to agree with them. However, if we don't at least listen and allow them to express their greivances, then we will never understand why these sentiments exists at all. It takes a little empathy to understand how things are for someone else - and it can be done without agreeing with their reasoning.

Consider this next time you post: Is it your intention to win an argument and be right? or is your intention to help others understand your perspective and to gain insight into theirs?

Personally, I sincerely hope that the passing of time will prove my views incorrect. This hope exists because, even though I don't get to be right, it will mean that the world has become a much better place than the place I think it is becoming.

I agree with your post. The only thing I have to add is some people are too BLINDED by their feelings to either side to have a conversation. To converse with some I don't need them to have the same opinions as me and I don't need them to convert to what I'm saying. I just need them need them to give what I say honest and fair consideration as I do what they say. Some people here are just to close minded to do that.

[Prelewd]

Originally posted by T4 Primera
I like this thread and the sentiments that have been expressed along these lines in other threads. Already I observe an increasing level of civility and respect for opposing views along with a decrease in emotive name calling and labeling in this forum.

Some people are presumed to be anti-american. Sometimes they bring this upon themselves when emotion and ego influence the way they articulate their posts. I admit to be prone to this flaw at times - nobody is perfect.

Meanwhile some people are not as articulate as others in expressing how they see things. This is where it is important to consider very carefully what they are trying to express - instead of leaping on every little crack in their dialogue. Conversely, some people are so articulate that they can be obviously wrong and yet make a very convincing argument that they are right. I admit to being guilty of this too at times.

Now here is my most important point. Some people are genuinely anti-american. But that does not mean there is no value in what they have to say. The value in considering their views is that we can gain understanding into how they came to feel this way. We don't have to agree with them. However, if we don't at least listen and allow them to express their greivances, then we will never understand why these sentiments exists at all. It takes a little empathy to understand how things are for someone else - and it can be done without agreeing with their reasoning.

Consider this next time you post: Is it your intention to win an argument and be right? or is your intention to help others understand your perspective and to gain insight into theirs?

Personally, I sincerely hope that the passing of time will prove my views incorrect. This hope exists because, even though I don't get to be right, it will mean that the world has become a much better place than the place I think it is becoming.

I would have to say this is the most fair post I have read to date. One should sometimes step back and look at the big picture, egos do cloud valid thoughts, and that little thing said to make the world just a little bit better really makes a difference when it's multiplied by 6 billion.

I can agree that Americans tend to be a little pig headed when it comes to sticking up for what the believe. Today I heard about the head of the Brittish opposition group (opposed to war) being interviewd on Fox News today, and what he said really kind of made me say wow. He said something like there is no use arguing about why and why not this war should have been started because that decision has been made. What you can do now is stand behind your country, and voice your opinions on the subjects that are actually on the table, instead of the ones that have been removed already. There is no going back to change history, what's done is done. I do wish that most American's can realize this on both sides.. Instead of trying to think of a way to make something better, they decide it's easier or something to bash what has already happened. Although this is evident in all countries, I think Americans tend to be the epitomy of it. Maybe it's because the USA is the only country I know, but oh well.

From being a part of AF, and this thread in particular, I think everyone has matured and gained knowledge at least a little bit, and you can see this if you look close enough. I can speak for myself and say that my views have been broadened, and that I can think on a more universal level than I could before I joined in on these discussions. I thank everyone in AF for putting out their knowledge and enriching my life that much more. I'd also like to thank Igor personally for giving us the medium to make this possible. Let's learn from the late Mr. Rogers.. AF is a global neighborhood, respect your neighbors.

[T4 Primera]

Originally posted by GTStang
I agree with your post. The only thing I have to add is some people are too BLINDED by their feelings to either side to have a conversation. To converse with some I don't need them to have the same opinions as me and I don't need them to convert to what I'm saying. I just need them need them to give what I say honest and fair consideration as I do what they say. Some people here are just to close minded to do that.

That is a VERY valid an important point. It certainly can be frustrating, even infuriating, when we take the time to express our perspectives only to have them trivialised or ignored. However, when encountering these people we still may gain insight into their perspective. The fact that they choose not take the same opportunity to gain insight is their loss - it is the trait of closed mind, or at least a mind that has decided it knows everything already.

[1985_BMW318i]

Why are there people in this forum who persist with the notion that those of us who oppose the war are automatically anti-everything American.?

Naki
From at least one American's point of veiw it does seem that you continuously bash Bush and a majority of americans who support him will take it personal as a attack on the US. I myself do because you cannot see it from our perspective. Your vision is one sided to say the least. Mine is from three different perspectives,

1rst I'm from the US
2nd I'm former military and have been over there and seen what he's done
3rd I've got family over there fighting him now.

I have seen first hand why the world needs to be rid of him and our President is not going to back away from this.