The back side of Pay"pal"

[joelwideqvist]

Hi guys,
I'm here to tell you todays lesson on selling over the Internet.

I recently had quite a few object for sale on E-bay, all related to modeling. Some time after the due date of one of the auctions I got contacted by a person who wanted to buy one of my decal sheets that didn't sell.

We made an agreement and he paid me 14 USD to my Paypal acount. 10 for the sheet and 4 for shipping. Not one of the most valuable items I've sold so far, I can tell you that. No shipping insurance was asked for and as the value was so low I probably wouldn't have gone through the hazzle to offer one.

I shipped the decal sheet in a regular envalope and over stamped the shipment due to my gas station being short of the right stamps.

Some weeks later I got contacted by the buyer who said he had not received the decal sheet. Even if these things occure from time to time it isn't too common between Sweden and the U.S so I asked him to wait another week and then contact me again.

The buyer tried to contact me but I didn't scan my email so he turned to Paypal and filed a complaint to get his money back.

Here's the funny part, when asked by Paypal on how to solve the matter I had to pick one of three choices.

1, to show a tracking number
2, admit not having sent the item and that I would refund the money
3, show proof of already refunded money

As the item was sent without tracking number I have no proof of having sent the item. And today Paypal refunded the 14 bucks to the buyer...

Am I stupid here or what makes him the more trust worthy in this matter? AND why shall I take the full cost when no insurance was agreed upon? A I NEVER would screw a fellow modeler I could have accepted to refund half just to show good will, but this is just too much. And as you can guess it's not the money in this case, I'll survive without 14 bucks, or the fact that he filed a complaint, it's his entitled right. It's the way they solved the matter.

I tell you this Pay is no longer my "pal" and I'm off to read the fine prints in this matter.

Best regards
Joel

[The Sheene Machine]

After 300+ transaction on eBay, I've stopped sending things without insurance. I always use the post office and get a receipt. Most items, even within the UK, go recorded. I insist on it.

A few years ago I sold an item to a guy in Belgium. He too reckoned it didn't arrive. It sold for 45.00euros... that went airmail without tracking. I believe he recieved it and then claimed that he didn't. The upshot is he got a free 1/12th TK for his caterham as I refunded his money ...I was fortunate in getting compensation from the Post Office.

I know some buyers like to pay as little for the shipping, but I've used this policy and most buyers are ok with it.

I feel your pain.

[Ferrari TR]

It's really turned into a seller beware world.
With USPS i use a delivery comframation, and insurance.
UPS and Fedex take that burden off of my shoulders and for that i prefer using them. Paypal is biased for buyers, which seems odd as sellers pay the fees.

[Adam Baker]

I always get delivery confirmation w/ USPS, thankfully its only $.75 so its not a huge expense to get it.

I think that maybe in the future, get a shipping quote, and always include at least some kind of tracking in that quote, regardless of whether the customer wants it or not. That way your covered if anything happens.

[klutz_100]

Ouch!

That's good to know. Thanks for the heads-up

[360spider]

Long time ago, I sold a used laptop and was foolish enough to send it without tracking. The buyer claimed he never received it, $800 was refunded to the buyer by Paypal. Luckily for me, about a week from the refund date, my laptop was listed on eBay by the same guy for sale, and idiot didn't even bother to take new pictures, he used my pictures from the listing. Paypal reversed charges, but I learned my lesson.

[Decs0105]

Ouch... but you are not the first one to experiance that sadly...

I only accept paypal and insured shipping (even if it is only a envelope) that should save you most trouble...

[joelwideqvist]

I don't know how much I have to pay extra for tracking using swedish airmail, I've always thought it would cost a fortune and that it wouldn't be worth it for such small shipments but I will surely look in to it now.

And as you say it is called Paypal not Receivepal so I guess that's how it is.

Luckily for me it was only 14 usd.

Get yourselves a great day.
/Joel

[jano11]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles.

Never accept PayPal for not-registered mail.
If they really want the item but don't want to pay the extra for the registered mail they can pay using bank transfer and if it's lost eBay will tell them to bugger off.

Never had problems ,but I won't even take the chance in today's world.

[CrateCruncher]

This is an interesting discussion. I've been a casual eBayer like Joel since '98 and I've seen this thing come full circle. Ebay was conceived as a marketplace for casual collectors to exchange among themselves cutting out the dealer. Then eBay began encouraging a more professional "power seller" class of sellers. Not too many years ago the seller had all the power in the transaction. He didn't release the goods until he was paid and if the buyer was foolish enough to give bad feedback for a bad transaction, the seller could retaliate with his own thereby negating the feedback feature through "mutually assured destruction". Power sellers argued this was "just" because afterall, they pay all the fees right? (In my opinion, the buyer pays the brunt of the fees, it's just a pass-through handled by the seller as an intermediary.)

Then eBay's meteoric growth started to slow and the MBA's began taking a closer look at all aspects of the operation and discovered a major impediment to transaction growth was buyer anxiety. About this time, EBay was having a major problem with misrepresented goods, fake items like jewelry, clothing and handbags and their whole system not only allowed it but in fact encouraged it! Adding to the problem was that the worst offenders were all in foreign countries beyond the reach of the US legal system. They have since redressed and rebalanced some of the transaction power back to the buyer in an effort to weed out unscrupulous sellers and rebuild trust with buyers but it's too soon to know if it has worked or not. In some respects this evolution mirrors that of the US residential real estate markets in the '80s (both agents were paid by, thus worked for, the seller).

If you are reading this and make a living as an eBay Powerseller I mean no offense. In 10 years the only problem I've had as a buyer or seller was simple miscommunication. But there are a handfull that screw things up for everyone.

For us casual sellers I think I'll be doing like Jano from now on and at least send everything with tracking or delivery confirmation.

[mazinkaiser]

I would never send anything without a tracking no. The minimal would be registered mail. Once, I had a buyer filed for a refund at Paypal after buying a kit from me but luckily I sent it by registered airmail and I showed Paypal even the track record at USPS that the kit in fact had delivered to the buyer's door. Case closed.

In fact, I had just experienced a rather odd incident at ebay. A buyer bought at kit from me day before yesterday but immediately sent me a message saying that he/she has no money in Paypal and would like to call off the deal. For return, he/she already left me a positive feedback. I should have gone through the transaction cancel procedure but since I've got a positve feedback, to simply end the case, I gave him/her a positive feedback. However, last night, I noticed that his/her feedback rating shot up 20 places. So, I checked through the details of them, all purchases (anything from AV wires to sockets...) and feedbacks were left on the same day. And all so-called "purchases" were made in either Hong Kong or China. (Yes, I'm from Hong Kong too).

So, I sent an email to ebay and ask them to investigate.

[spincarez]

Hi Joel,
Is the decal you are referering the 206 WRC Havoline?? If yes then i am the buyer of your auctions and i still have not received the decals. I am sorry if this has caused you any trouble and believe me i have no intention to further escalate the situation. FYI i have not received the 14$ so don't know about it but will refund it if i get it. I turned to ebay because i had to take some action to protect my interest but in good faith i only filed the complain for 1 decal and not for the 60$ worth of PE and other decals.
Sorry for the hassle.

[jano11]

Originally Posted by CrateCruncher

About this time, EBay was having a major problem with misrepresented goods, fake items like jewelry, clothing and handbags and their whole system not only allowed it but in fact encouraged it! Adding to the problem was that the worst offenders were all in foreign countries beyond the reach of the US legal system.

eBay is also represented in Europe by eBay Europe, based in Luxembourg, so they have the European legal system at disposal if they want to use it.
But from my (bad) experience they don't do it. I've found this out when I paid an article via bank transfer to a German seller, and he never bothered sending the article (I paid for insured registered shipping). When I complained to eBay they simply said it's not their business because I didn't use PaPal!

So you see, having a legal leverage is of no use because eBay won't use it! They are happy to take our money and that's all. I know about people who had to turn to the police because eBay wouldn't handle their complaints!

[flyonthewall]

I've experienced the same problem when I sold one of my transkits to a buyer in Israel through my website. He made a couple of purchases a few days apart so they were also sent seperately. Sometime later I was emailed by Paypal, similar to yourself, claiming the buyer never received the items. I was very suspicous as I was never contacted by the buyer and he would not respond to my enquiries in an attempt to find out what the situation was. I didn't ship via recorded delivery so could not provide tracking details. After several days the buyer was refunded in full and I was also charged £7 per transaction as some sort of Paypal fee.

What was really infuriating was that I knew for a fact that he had received them as he started to post his progress building the kits on this forum. Paypal did sweet F.A. to help but I made sure he was no longer able to use the forum.

[joelwideqvist]

Spincarez: No, you are not the buyer of my decal sheet.

And I must repeat that I think it's a good thing that you can file a complaint at Fee-Bay and PayPal (wich both are the same if I'm not mistaken...) and I can't say that the buyer of my item has done something wrong. He contacted me to see if I had shipped, waited a week and tried to contact me again before filing so no shadow over him. But, within a transaction where no insurance was offered or asked for I think that it is questionable if the seller shall take the full blame for a lost shipment.

I happen to work as a police officer and from my point of view I would say that the trial of guilt here is not very well executed. What makes the buyers story more trustworthy? It is my word against his and in the justice system I know of there has to be a tad bit more substance for a court to say I'm guilty of fraud.

Well, well, I see that I'm not the first, and will probably not be the last either. But, my friends, learn the lesson and be careful when selling goods, not only when buying.

best regards
Joel