Getting dumber?

[jon@af]

Why is it that there are more students in schools these days who have no ambition to learn? Im surrounded by people at my school who scoff at books by authors such as Thoreau and Emerson, saying that their writings dont mean anything and call them "boring" and "stupid", people try to get into intellectual arguments with other people and use words completely out of context, some of them they dont even know what they mean, then you have people who fail math because they cant add properly. honestly? what happened to work ethics in school? Ive seen people goof off all day for the entire semester in classes and then bomb their final and wonder what happened. I see people reading magazines or drawing or sleeping in class. This leads me to believe that a lot of people these days dont care how they end up in life, they have no goal set for themself so they figure "oh, I dont know how to do it, so I wont try". This isnt really what irritates me about all of it, its the fact that the teachers see it happening and they dont say anything about it, they just let it happen. perhaps its a case of salutary neglect? who knows, I just think its sad that people who have potential to become anything they want just sit and piss their life away because they are lazy and dont feel like learning anything because it looks "lame" or its "too hard". Life is hard sometimes and in this day and age, if you dont have an education or dont know something about something, you end up having a career that requires saying "would you like fries with that"

[Oz]

Fascinating sentiments. And I thought I was the only one...
I finished high school recently (November) and can agree with every one. I actively participated actively in every class (except Maths - that I just plain sucked at) and took something positive away, in most cases enjoying the experience. My final marks however did reflect an attitude towards life that I do not regret - a balance. I got a high than average mark - but not outstanding. I also enjoyed things throughout my final year such as friends, parties, leadership, holidays, hiking, camping, new part time job etc.

Good luck in school, however long you have left to go, and I hope you take away from the experience what YOU want out of it - not what is acceptable to your peers. And just think - they'll be that much easier to beat at the end.

[Steel]

Well, maybe that's what YOU think.

I on the other hand, am/was one of those people with no ambition to learn. Or so it seemed. I goofed off all day just to piss my teachers off, i got bad grades and I didn't care. My math teacher even said something about her not wanting to pay the taxes for my stay at prison.

Now I'm at the University of Massachusetts College of Engineering...ironic how in 4 years ill be making twice as much money as her, and after working for the same amount of years that she has, i'll be in the 6 digits.

That's right, i goofed off all through high school, because high school is a JOKE. No If's and's or but's. My high school was extra bad - just this past semester there were aobut 15 or so students all suspended right before Christmas break because they were giving out Bible literature with candy. Yes, our whole school system was made fun of by one of the big rock stations around here too, to no end. Heehee

Now I'll agree and say that sure, there are those that will just jerkoff all day and ecome wastes. But think about my whole argument when you see half of the people you see as wastes. Like, you know the one who seems pretty smart and funny, but doesnt do good in school, nor seems to care....

[Oz]

So how did you get into college, Steel?

[taranaki]

Time for an 'old guy' rant here..........

Quite honestly,it's down to the teachers.They can't maintain order,and are more interested in being 'political correctness' than hard facts and true knowledge.Most of the teaching profesion is underskilled,the school system does not want to tackle the issues of dicipline and effort,and the qualifications and education requirements for higher education have been watered down to reflect the piss poor performance of high schools in general.
Back when I was in school,higher education was a priviledge only granted to those who were talented and hardworking[unless you went to a private school,and Daddy knew the right people].Thesedays Universities seem to be offering degree courses in just about any subject,however bizarre or subjective,just to boost their student numbers.

[Sleazbian]

LOL

[boingo82]

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
...Im surrounded by people at my school who scoff at books by authors such as Thoreau and Emerson, saying that their writings dont mean anything and call them "boring" and "stupid", people try to get into intellectual arguments with other people and use words completely out of context, some of them they dont even know what they mean, then you have people who fail math because they cant add properly. ...

And then you have those students who haven't a clue how to punctuate, and forget capitalizing....

Just poking fun. Seriously, though, there's a serious decline in school nowadays, with lowered academic standards and such. So, I'm with you. BTW, Mr. T, part of the reason the teachers can't maintain discipline is fear of being sued for harassment or abuse.

BTW, AFers (not you, ILike2Drive, I'm thinking of Yogs, Moppie, and many, many others here), the word "it's" is a CONTRACTION of the words "it" and "is" and is NEVER, hear me, NEVER, to be used as a possessive pronoun. Do you use an apostrophe when saying hers, his, theirs, ours, yours? You damn well better not!

The following sentence is incorrect:
I think we have seen it's limitations. IN THIS INSTANCE IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO USE AN APOSTROPHE. The appropriate use of "it's" is as follows: It's a good product.

DO WE HAVE THAT CLEARED UP?!?!?!

[Oz]

[taranaki]

Originally posted by boingo82


BTW, Mr. T, part of the reason the teachers can't maintain discipline is fear of being sued for harassment or abuse.

:

Not the case in New Zealand,thankfully.People are much,much slower to go to court in this country.I truly believe that the 'anti-corporal punishment' brigade have got it wrong.Discipline is about compliance or facing the consequences.If the consequences don't scare the pupils,you're never going to get the compliance.

Also,I'm not sure about the U.S., but the teaching industry in New Zealand is now largely staffed by women.With so many families running without a father,it must be really hard for boys to get to grips with the skills that will make them into men.

[darkness]

Originally posted by taranaki
Not the case in New Zealand,thankfully.People are much,much slower to go to court in this country.I truly believe that the 'anti-corporal punishment' brigade have got it wrong.Discipline is about compliance or facing the consequences.If the consequences don't scare the pupils,you're never going to get the compliance.

Also,I'm not sure about the U.S., but the teaching industry in New Zealand is now largely staffed by women.With so many families running without a father,it must be really hard for boys to get to grips with the skills that will make them into men.

well said T. and about your comment about being staffed by mostly women.

I feel sorry for male teachers these days. especially early school level. All you need is some child to exaggerate something "my teacher touched me funny" (and kids do lie and exaggerate), and the teacher will quite often get screwed. And it's getting worse with kids realising they can use the abuse card these days. They don't understand what it means and the consequences behind it.

Alot of teenagers especially here have less and less respect for teachers. They then taunt and complain at teachers who then lose their drive to actually teach these kids anything.

[Steel]

Originally posted by Oz
So how did you get into college, Steel?

oh yeah, 1450 on my SAT's and something good on my ACT's, and i DID do good in AP German and AP Physics.

[jon@af]

I wish my school offered AP German, I had to settle for AP Spanish.

[replicant_008]

I haven't inserted my 2 cents into the meter for a while so all those newbies who are incredulous at the length of the attached post... Hush! You'll get over it someday.

I've read a lot of material in the past few years about the phenomenon mentioned in the posts on this thread. Having worked in the world of spin (public relations/marketing and advertising) for a while and having spent a good deal of my life in institutions (the educational kind) in one way or another - here are some observations:

Attention spans and spin
As the diffusion of mass media transferred from the written word (ie print) to the spoken word (wireless) to the televised messages - the messages we have been transmitted and received have progressively reduced in their content.

Most televised news programs have item lengths of less than 3 minutes which has meant issues have to be broken down to their simplest elements. Often because of the irregular pattern of reception of broadcasts, the whole issue has to be outlined, discussed and summarised each time. This is in contrast to the journals that the print media can effectively use to provide the detailed background and explanation that can explain the complexity of issues that deserve.

Elections are not won or lost on the 50 page manifesto any more, we are more likely to have the media simplify the election to a single issue choice rather than delving into the comprehensive and complex policies that each choice entails.

Education
In New Zealand at least and a lot of other countries we have seen the profession of teaching lose stature and respect within our communities. It is not an aspirational occupation any more. We have also seen a wholesale shift associated with a change in the composition of the teaching profession to political correctness to the extreme. Children are now given the message of participation and minimum achievement benchmarks as opposed to a culture of excellence and competitiveness.

A close friend of mine has observed that the profession has changed from conservative folk focussed on teaching skills such as reading, spelling, grammar and mathematics with a focus on sporting excellence to one where a bunch of ex-hippies provide messages about creativity, worrying about participation and making everyone feel good about themselves.

Now I hated some of my teachers. Some of them had no business being in a classroom influencing the minds of children or in fact being in contact with normal human beings. On the other hand, some of them inspired me, some of them gave me the appropriate channels for my aspirations, some of them gave me enough room to grow and some of taught a pile of lessons from the school of experience too.

But when it comes to full participation and creative outlets - I'm sorry but in the real world ie the one where I could be your employer - if you can't spell, read, write an intelligible and grammatical correct application letter or have a conversation on the telephone using appropriate vocabulary and politeness - then don't ask me for a job.

I'm an overachiever but I ain't going to apologise if I trample you along the way to get there - although I'll try and be nice about it when I do. No-one excels at something unless they truly strive for excellence.

And finally, Emily you can now see someone at AF can use the apostrophe correctly.

[Oz]

Comments on the teaching profession:
These comments apply to my personal experience as a member of a family with a teacher of 20+ years in it, and as someone who has just concluded 13 years in the Australian education system.

The first part of the problem is the necessity to have alarge amount of teachers because of the amounts of kids in the system. The second part of the problem is the fact that the majority (90%) are paid by the government, leading to pathetic pay rates for professionals with 2 degrees and 20 years of experience.
The other side of this is ZERO respect from members of the public. Witness attitude above (no offence guys). This is mainly because teachers have to fight like cats and dogs for every dollar they get paid in a thankless job. Add to this a less-than-stellar portrayal by the media and you have to think WHO THE FUCK WOULD WANT TO BE A TEACHER? No one who could succeed in ANY other profession would take this one by choice. This means that with a severe lack of new graduates coming through to replace the old ones, the government has had to lower entry standards to a laughable level (ANY person from my graduating grade could have become a teacher if they finished the degree - scary). So you have an average age of teachers now somewhere at high 40s and growing at about .7-.8 per year.

All of this contributes to the slow-motion destruction of the education systems. My Mum quit teaching in June 2002, after 23 years to pursue a career in Real Estate. She now makes 3x what she did teaching and has told me she will smack me over the back of the head if I choose teaching through a lack of other options.

Rep - I think we're turning the post whore tide.

[taranaki]

Nobody yet seems to have latched onto the fact that we have tended to offload the enire responsibility for our childrens'education onto the state.It wasn't that long ago that children were taught,coached,encouraged and disciplined from the moment they woke,to the moment their head hit the pillow[or later if they had a bedtime story.Thesedays,we have a culture of 'me first' which means that Mum and Dad spend less and less time with their most valuable assets[kids] and spend more and more time working to provide their children with material wealth that is no substitute for knowledge.Couple that with a state education system that teaches how to pass exams rather than the subtleties of the subjects,and what to think rather than how to think for yourself,and we are producing a generation of lesser people.