Are foreign auto repair costs really that high?

[BavarianDDR17]

Here's the short story: My dad hates on German cars because although they are nice, the costs for parts is insanely high. To quote him: "a water pump for a BMW would cost $500." I'm currently looking at an Audi for my grandmother right now and did some research online, just to see what the real cost of a water pump would be. This is what I found:
The site said that for a 2003 330i, a water pump would cost around $70.
For a 2005 A4, a water pump would cost around $80.
For an Infiniti FX35 (to compare to a Japanese automaker) a water pump would cost around $100, which is obviously the highest.

Is this correct? If it's true then I'm confused why people think parts for German cars are so much more than Asian automakers. Maybe it has something to do with the dealership jacking up the price.

[UncleBob]

prices are radically different between models. There is no 100% correct phrase you can use to cover all models for a given maker, let alone a particular nationality of cars.

But I will give some generic opinions on it, since I work on all of them for a living. European cars are more expensive as a whole, because they (IMO) have more failures more often, and not only are SOME of the parts very expensive comparatively, I think the labor time for repairs in general are quite a bit higher. For example, a basic maintenence item on an Audi like the timing belt, requires the complete disassembly of the front clip. Entire bumper assembly, radiator, condensor....its horribly engineered IMO, but most people don't care about such details when they are looking to buy a car.

Every model has a bitch job, but I'm just giving generic overall opinion....I'd rather work on just about any japanese car vs any european car. They are better engineered for the mechanic, which makes my life easier, but more importantly, that means the labor charge will be less and that can add up quickly for the customer

[INF3RN0666]

General rule of thumb: if it's common, it's cheap. If it's an expensive car, it'll have expensive parts. For example, the civic has relatively cheap parts because u see tons of them out there. Mind you, it doesn't have any electronic components to save its life. My impala has decently priced parts because the car is common and its parts fit 3 other models. On the other hand, take the BMW 7 series. If you're looking for a piece of plastic for the dash, it'll cost more money than you can afford, simply because 7 series are not as common and more advanced in design.

[curtis73]

i was worried about buying a BMW E30 with 163k on it, but after owning it I can safely say that if you pay more for maintenance and parts, you aren't shopping hard enough.

The very first maintenance I had to do was an oil change. I'm an auto customizer and I do all of my own maintenance from oil changes up to engine and tranny rebuilds, but I was on the road so I stopped at a Gm dealer. They wanted to charge me an additional $84 on top of the normal $30 oil change because it required "special parts." I went to the BMW dealer and they wanted to charge $120 for the oil change. I finally went to a quicky lube and they wanted to charge a $30 premium just because it was a BMW.

So, I thought... for the price of a jack, filter, and oil, I could do it in the parking lot for cheaper than someone else. After having purchased the $18 jack and appropriate supplies, I was shocked to realize that my lowered E30 didn't even need a jack to change the oil. It required an over-the-counter $4 filter, 4 quarts of oil, and all of the drain plugs and filter could be reached without even jacking up my slammed car. Subsequent maintenance showed that the E30 was one of the easiest cars to work on. Everything was thought of... an AC compressor change looked like a nightmare, but they notch the subframe so that its easy to remove. ALL of its maintenance was EASIER than most classic American cars I've owned.

I can't speak for all German marques, but being in automotive design and engineering for many years I can safely say that the "expensive" part of German cars is STRICTLY a persona designed to fleece Americans into paying big bucks in the post-sale market. The ONLY reason german parts are expensive is because the marketing has convinced buyers that its necessary.

A simple search online will find TONS of cheap german parts. For instance, if I went to a BMW dealer to buy the coolant temp sensor that failed on my E30, it would have cost $58. I talked them down to $38, but didn't buy. I got online and found a Bosch part number for $5.88. The problem is, Bosch sells parts to BMW germany, who sells the parts to BMW America, who sells them to BMW dealers, who then double the price and sell them to rich entitled pricks who think their s#!t doesn't stink. If you cut out the four middle steps, parts are just as cheap as the "common" cars out there.

I actually found that my 163k-mile E30 was cheaper by at least 50% than my low-mileage 96 Chevy Impala, and I drove the E30 more. It was so bulletproof, and if something did fail, it was SO easy to repair and (with the proper parts sources) was just as cheap.

[UncleBob]

I once worked on a car made in the antartica. The parts were 20 cents and it took 20 seconds to fix. It was the only time I ever worked on one of those cars, but I realised that it was the best car in teh world.

Never seen one since either. Its a shame.....you can't beat those kind of averages!

Statistics can be fun

[INF3RN0666]

I dunno if anyone of you realize, but cars are just getting more expensive globally. I immigrated to canada in 95 from syria. Cars in syria are expensive, because nobody needs one. it's always above 0 degrees and distances are relatively close. Either way, mercedes-benz weren't much more expensive than your average sedan. People used them as taxis... When i came here, they were 2 to 3 times the price of a regular sedan. The funny thing is, as time went by, a benz in syria has followed the american standard. They're now 2x the price of a regular sedan. BUT, people act as if it's normal because time heals all wounds. Although, i guarantee that manufacturing prices haven't change that much since. So it's obvious that it's all a marketing "scam".

[KiwiBacon]

Repairs on uncommon cars are often expensive because you're paying to train the mechanic.

There are a few curly ones (i.e. the mate who got stung $US40 for a tranmission filter, not being able to buy aftermarket seals etc). But most servicable car parts (filters, bearings, seals, plugs, sensors, wires etc) have a high degree of interchange even aross the world.

[BavarianDDR17]

Curtis-

I can't thank you enough. That is an answer I have been waiting to hear for quite some time but no one seems to be able to give it. I do the oil changes on my Trans Am but I guess it never really occurred to me that I'd be able to do it on a Bimmer. Very insightful. Thanks a bunch.

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by KiwiBacon

Repairs on uncommon cars are often expensive because you're paying to train the mechanic.

Might be that way in your hemisphere, but for the most part, training here is pretty generic. There are some augmented, marque-specific training, but most of that is familiarizing yourself with the tools and electronics that you use to work on the vehicle.

I'm partially trained formally, and mostly trained by myself (and lovely folks like you guys). I was nervous about starting at a GM service department until I learned that the entire procedure for every single step of all the repairs is on the computer. You get a job, a reference number, you clock in and it gives you a step by step diagram-illustrated procedure. Training is more about how to properly assemble gasketed components than it is how to change gaskets in a BMW or a Ford.

[UncleBob]

dealer training is a whole nother world. hours apon hours, yearly updates. Kinda silly IMO. One of the many reasons I no longer work at dealers. They treat everyone like idiots and require 50 hours of certification when it only takes 10 minutes of explaining ot update decent techs with the differences between last years models and the new year models.

Being at an independant shop, my class time is pretty minimal. Keep my ASE's up to date, keep my emissions cert up to date. A lot less time from work and really, the classes are boring as hell. I don't miss them

[BavarianDDR17]

I am glad to hear the simple things like oil changes can be done by the owner and not necessarily by a shop. However, a guy I new had an X5 and the receiver for the key fob went out so it would not receive the signal and he could also not lock the doors from inside. The part cost him $800. Things like that (and the price) are unavoidable, right?

[KiwiBacon]

Originally Posted by curtis73

Might be that way in your hemisphere, but for the most part, training here is pretty generic. There are some augmented, marque-specific training, but most of that is familiarizing yourself with the tools and electronics that you use to work on the vehicle.

Over here most mechanics work at non-franchised workshops. No specific training and they tend to butcher anything they're not familiar with.

Suffice to say, I fix my own vehicles.

[curtis73]

Originally Posted by BavarianDDR17

I am glad to hear the simple things like oil changes can be done by the owner and not necessarily by a shop. However, a guy I new had an X5 and the receiver for the key fob went out so it would not receive the signal and he could also not lock the doors from inside. The part cost him $800. Things like that (and the price) are unavoidable, right?

Sometimes yes, but many times not. First of all, the internet is a great resource for that kind of stuff. I needed a key cut for my E30. It was as easy as giving the dealer the VIN and paying $57 (ouch... just to buy a plain key). It wasn't the right cut and they refused to refund my money. So, I got on Ebay, bought a lot of 10 key blanks for $12, and had a locksmith cut two of them for $15. I gave the rest of the blanks to my E30 club.

BMW forums are incredible resources. It seems there are many enthusiasts out there just like you who don't think that owning a nice car has to come with prices that are inflated 100 times above what they should be. They've already figured out ways around most things.

I'm about ready to dive back into the German world with a VW Jetta. They can be a bit problematic in the electronics department (not one of Germany's strongest points) but they are CHEAP to repair. I replaced timing belt, tensioner, axle shafts (new VW parts, not rebuilt), water pump and pump housing, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, valve cover gasket, and front brake pads on an A2 Jetta with the 1.8 engine. The total bill for parts was $318.18 and they were all on the shelf at the local parts wholesaler. The only exception was the pump housing which came from across town and I had to wait a couple hours.

[BavarianDDR17]

I'm glad you brought up a VW because the discrepancy I'm having right now is Infiniti G35 vs. an Audi A4. It's my grandmother that wants a new car and it's come down to those two. I know the A4 has recently been awarded a top safety pick, but my dad is telling her that the upkeep for it is going to cost a lot more than Infiniti. I know that luxury brands carry higher prices on parts and all, but if VW is that cheap (and being that Audi is part of the VW Group) how does Audi compare?

And as a sidenote, would you choose an Infiniti G35 sedan or an A4 3.2?

[curtis73]

I would look at the reliability of both as well as the target market of both. Its really hard to quantify actual reliability because those numbers are partially based on customer claims. I've had little old ladies come in with a brand new Buick that the fuel pump has died three times and not only were we able to get her to pay for it, we upsold her on brakes, tires, oil change, and a leaky oil pan gasket. Bingo: GM sends us a plaque for our wall and the lady leaves thanking us for catching all that stuff. On the other hand, the rich entitled Maserati owner goes to his dealer after the warranty expires complaining that the cupholder is too small for his quadruple latte and they install a bigger one at no charge under a "goodwill" warranty. I once took a 1973 AMC to a BMW dealer for brakes because I was already there test driving a new 3-series. They didn't charge me for brakes in the hopes that the butt-kissing would bring me back to buy.

Audi and VW share a lot, but they are different enough that i would separate them much like I would separate Nissan and Infinity. They are both linked but to say that Audi shares reliability with VW would be no more true than saying Infinity shares reliability with Nissan.