Potshots at turkeys - The neverending discussion of comments -

[bigfrit]

Dear AF,

I would like to express my views on a subject I find rather interesting, but let me first start out with a little story...opcorn:

On an evening, not so long ago, I was checking, as mostly, if there were any spectacular builds on af. Looking up and down on the list of new posts, I find a post I have not seen yet. "Group Build : LS2 corvette engine Lotus", it reads.
I remember showing my entusiasm by posting in what was a very promising thread, by a modeler that had done some good stuff. After reading his screenname, I open the thread.
To my amazement, I had no idea what I was looking at, I was rather dissapointed and this made no real sence, i knew the modeler was capable of better, so I thought he must have had enough of it, slapped some sticky glue on it , put some paint on it, just to have it done or even to show as a joke
I thought if that was the case, it sure is a good one.

Sadly, it wasn't!

Keeping that possibility in my head, before making comments , i checked his profile, it said the guy was 20, so hey, no probs, i can tell what i really think.

I told him (in a rather harsh way-according to some-) that I didn't like it at all. I was looking for stuff that was good , but couldn't find it. I thought for a while not to say anything, but the other comments were too positive, so i fired away.

Originally Posted by bigfrit

I don't like it! Bleh more or less concludes my first view after reading your screenname.
You should first try your hand at basic stuff...
The paint sucks, the modifications (especially front wheels) suck and the result is not really convincing, with the rubbish rollcage and crappy inserting of other kit's parts.
I m sorry, I know it sounds very harsh, but it's all about "helping" each other here, right?
I m helping you by saying you should first get your basics right.
Sorry for the hard post, I felt the need to give criticism with a solution.
Hope you're not too mad

Maybe I should have been more diplomatic, maybe I shouldn't have?

Atleast, quoting from his thread he made a day after, it seemed to have an effect?

Originally Posted by deltableh

Well, since people were taking potshots at my modeling skills, saying I needed to work on the basics some more, I decided to start another model to be spiteful and to show them that maybe they shouldn't judge a modeler by one kit.

And, might I add, there is a world of difference between the two builds.


So my question to you all is; was this too hard, should we just let it out and post the same old "awesome comments"?

And I would also like to invite the owner of the quotes to come and tell his side of the story, how he took it, and if he thinks I crossed the line?

[tigeraid]

Yet Another Thread About Comments(tm)...

Your comments were harsh, insultingly so. It's one thing to provide constructive criticism, it's another thing to use words like "sucks" and "rubbish" and "crappy inserting."

None of your reply in his post gave any feedback, tips or suggestions on how to make it better. You simply shit all over it. People post their work (and again, just my opinion, and what most people agreed with the last time this subject was brought up) to be critiqued in a professional manner, and to provide help. You didn't. You even took a cheapshot at his nickname, like that has anything to do with the situation.

From looking at his previous projects (and he's only had a handful, he's very new to the hobby) this is his first real kitbash, so problems are bound to creep up. In fact the only "harsh" criticism I'd have for him myself is to maybe slow down and take more time to see the project through before taking a bunch of pictures and posting them.

Here's how I would've responded, with your ideas but with my own methods:

I don't like it! Bleh more or less concludes my first view after reading your screenname.

In my honest opinion, it's a good effort and the idea is sound--crazy engine swaps in Caterhams are great! There are a few areas you need to work on, but the idea was sound.

You should first try your hand at basic stuff...

Next time you start a build, maybe take a little more time to test fit the components first, in particular the wheels, and sand down and unnecessary mold lines and injection pin marks... the rollcage, for example, has the right shape and thickness, but looks blocky because it was glued together hastily. Try gluing it together, and then going over it with a sanding stick for a while next time.

The paint sucks, the modifications (especially front wheels) suck and the result is not really convincing, with the rubbish rollcage and crappy inserting of other kit's parts.

The paint looks okay, but there's a fair bit of crazing in it--are you painting in cold or extra-humid conditions? Try to paint when temperature is around room temp, and if this is a consistent problem for you, you may want to try faster-drying top coats, like Dupli-color.

As far as the front wheels, one looks okay and the other one doesn't, so I suspect fitting Revell wheels isn't really the issue. Next time before you lay down the paint, test fit the wheels to the spindles to make sure they line up. If they don't, drilling out the wheels or repositioning the spindle will likely solve the problem.

As for the engine, it's an excellent choice and would make a wild ride in real life--400 hp in a Super 7! The engine looks reasonably detailed, and the carbon fibre on the fuel rail covers really sets it off--I'd maybe try running some rad hoses, either aftermarket or cutting up the stock ones, into and under the nose of the Super 7, since you can't really see the rad anyway. Some simple wiring of the battery would set it off nicely as well.

That wasn't so difficult....

Oh and deltableh, you forgot to put the steering wheel on

[bigfrit]

Tigeraid,

Could I ask you to first read my post, instead of just posting the exact same thing you posted on deltableh's post? I don't feel that your post has the bigger picture that I m trying to create by going through my thought process?

[CADguy]

I think your critique was a bit harsh Oli. I think if that comment was posted about my work, I'd be a little upset. However, I do like your honesty.

I have strayed from AF and don't post much here anymore because I tired of seeing poor work receiving comments like "awesome" and "great work". Dont get me wrong though, there are still truly inspiring builds being posted here.

Getting constructive criticizm and tips helped me become a better modeler. If everyone had said "awesome" when it really wasn't, I would not have improved.

While I'm all for honesty and constructive criticism, it can be worded as not to offend.

[auw12]

forum is a place for showing and also for posting comments.people say "awesome",people say "crapy",people keep quiet and people gave constructive comments,that's people.every one of us is different from each other,we feel Oli's harsh but i guess Oli just cant find another way to express his feeling,maybe it's not that decent but that's Oli right?i saw he made some explanation about his post and tried to let us understand him on that thread,so i think Oli is not a rude man.you can't make every one do as you think,there always be something that you can't control but there's alway one thing that you surely can.yourself.so why not try to learn to hear?if i did something that really not good and some one said "awesome",ok thanks man for your encourage,and some one pointed my shortcoming and gave constructive criticise,i say thank you very much man!!and keep the comments for my next work,maybe even PM him for advanced advice.or some one said "oh come on man,what a piece of fuckin' shit you're making!" i just turn a blind eye to it.but i say to myself next time i'll make a piece of cake.
but first of all,respect is everything.if i'm really an asshole i think no one would stay on my side.

[Jmich]

I read your post in the original thread and thought you were being a little harsh. Were you wrong? Not necessarily... if that's how you see it, then that's OK. I think you could've worded it a little differently, but at the same time, if someone is going to post their work on these boards there will occasionally be something said that offends them. I generally go the route of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
If you see flaws that you need to point out, by all means do that, but do it with some suggestions to improve their next build. I too, hate seeing a thread where everyone says "awesome" and "great- job" when the model is not done at least passably well, but unless I have some constructive criticism to add I just move on.
Just my two- cents.

[gionc]

1st: this isn't a nun's college forum: words like "sucks" "crappy" "not really convincing" couldn't distress no one here. Yes Oli's post was rough but I have nothing to say against. So are we doing a lesson of breeding at AF? With the "this is the way I would express the idea insthead you"? Bleah (LOL)

I learned and I'm still learning a lot from a master: Mr. Prini but the main thing I got and those that I try to translate in practice every second is "LOOK AT FACT" fact is most important, the rest is "talking about the chickken pussy" like say we here.

Oli done a concrete thing for deltableh: he given his negative feedback. I looked those S7 and come straight. But I thought the same as Oli. I admire Oli, so: despite I'm not enchouraging his rough manner (NOTE: limited to those post: i ever feel him helpful, inspiring, gentle).

[SchuberT]

Here are my thoughts. Your post is nothing out the ordinary when I think "critique". If you watch a critic attack a movie's bad points, he doesn't always offer a way to improve each and every detail. With that said, I don't have a problem with your reply overall.

BUT, it was taken the wrong way. The main reason why deltableh took it personally that I can see is this particular statement:

Originally Posted by bigfrit

You should first try your hand at basic stuff...

Out of context, this would appear to be a generalization. He probably thought you were directly attacking his skills. If you had narrowed it down to specifically this model, I believe there would have been a different reaction, although not necessarily positive.

When all is said and done, you motivated him to do a better build. Had deltableh been of a younger age, you may have crushed his confidence with your post. But since deltableh has had a couple of decades to learn himself, he turned a negative (from his point of view) into motivation.

In the end, I don't think your post was the wrong thing to do. Looks like you went through more than the usual "pre-reply" routine before making a controversial reply, and I believe you're truly justified. Besides that small point I mentioned, I think you're okay.

And props to deltableh. You didn't make a really huge stink over it, and you turned what bigfrit said into motivation. It takes a sound mind to do that.


*Edit*
Just something to add regarding my own ideas... Let's say deltableh knows in his own mind that the build was below par for him. If he had nothing but good comments, what kind of idea would that give him? I make it a point to only post praise when it is earned. Even though I'm a below-average skilled builder, I know what a good model should look like. And I'm not putting that bar up at hiroboy's level or ales' level or MPWR's level (to name a few excellent builders). In fact, I don't base my judgment off of any builder in particular. My judgment for a good model is based, firstly, on how much attention is given to the fundamentals: quality of paint, completeness, etc. After that comes the "icing on the cake"; the extra details, etc. The "icing on the cake" cannot come before the fundamentals, and I won't give someone praise just for wiring up and engine while leaving the aftermarket wheels sticking out of the wheel wells when they aren't supposed to. I would feel more sore at myself for posting false praise than I would be posting harsh critique. I feel it's my duty, as a reader, to offer my honest thoughts if I'm going to offer any at all. I'd almost feel like I'm letting the person down by praising something I don't think has earned that praise. I'm sure bigfrit feels the same way.

[tigeraid]

Originally Posted by bigfrit

Tigeraid,

Could I ask you to first read my post, instead of just posting the exact same thing you posted on deltableh's post? I don't feel that your post has the bigger picture that I m trying to create by going through my thought process?

I posted it in response to this thread, and did read this thread. I just included it in deltableh's thread because I wanted to give him my feedback on his build.

I have no problem with criticism. I appreciate it when I receive it, and I give it on the AF board frequently. I ALSO don't like "awesome" and "great build" when the build is clearly subpar, but that's no reason to dump on someone's effort.

As I said above, deltableh was clearly a new modeler and still learning the ropes--I don't think I would've liked it in high school English class if I wrote an essay that I put time and effort into, but wasn't very good, and the teacher went up in front of the whole class, read it, and then called it "crap" and "sucks." There's a difference between "tough love" as it were, and being insulting.

So what next, deltableh posts his next project in a couple weeks, that clearly shows signs of improvement, a better basic paint job, better wheel alignment, more attention to detail, but still isn't up to your standards--time to call it crap again?

I never disagreed with bigfrit's point guys, I disagreed with its execution. That and the fact that, on top of wording it in an insulting fashion, he really didn't provide any feedback or suggestions. "Work on your basics" doesn't help much.

Maybe it's just because I'm Canadian....

[rsxse240]

harsh, yes. if it were me on the recieving end, I would have been offended, and insulted. however, was your post effective? I'm sure it was, one way or the other, deltableh will likely improve his skills, or quit because he doesn't feel like he has any talent. I see lots of talent, just needs to be honed.

I have yet to see the other build you speak of, I hope some skills have been learned, and existing skills improved. weather by your post or just by the inherant human drive to improve.

I follow a simple rule when on the forums, and we all know it...
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
constructive criticism is not rude, or mean, as long as it's properly worded. a good constructive comment is one that is informative, and helpful. yours was both, but didn't come across very friendly.
-Ken

[mikemechanic]

Well I saw the comments and was quite shocked to see them. I totally understand the point that Oli was trying to make. I agree that there are several threads that have somebody posting "awesome work" when the model is obviously not up to MY standards. But I think what it really boils down to is that deltableh finished a model and that in itself is an amazing feat. I have started several projects this year and managed to finish 3-4 of them. How many models get started and never ever get finished. I think that this is a community and that constructive polite critisism is encouraged. Just my 2 cents.

Mike.