post to end all posts

[jveik]

obviously there are many posts of this already, but maybe this will help to stop people from constantly asking stuff like "does acetone work" and "does the tornado work." here are major points...

1) if the product works, why wouldnt the manufacturer of the car use the technology in the first place? this is in regard to things such as the tornado, various water injection units, and magnetic field things. the tornado just restricts things, the water injection doenst work because at wot there is virtually no vaccuum to pull the water in, and the magnetic field on the fuel lines, even if there is a real magnet, the magnetic field would only travel down the actual fuel line itself and would have no affect on the fuel in the line, and, correct me if im wrong, but i believe gasoline is not affected by magnets anyways.

also, the multi-electrode spark plugs, im going to guess that an electric spark probly wont split into 4 separate arcs, it will just pick the electrode with the least resistance. (does the same bolt of lightning ever split and hit 2 different lightning rods? NOPE!)

2) if you still are in question if a product works, read #1 again, there is the answer.

3)obviously some things do work, some better than others. im sure that an aftermarket intake manifold and intake system works good, and im damned sure that full size headers and a better exhaust work good too. so there are exceptions, but if its some overpriced little gadget that looks iffy, its probly not gonna work. stick with things that are tried and true, like intake, exhaust, computer mods, better carburetors or tbi, and internal engine components like camshafts and crud like that.


ill wrap this up now lol so it doesnt take 2 years to read like some of my other posts do... basically,
if you want 35 mpg city, get an older honda 4cyl with a 5 speed
45 mpg city, get a ford festiva 3cyl or a geo metro

if you want something to go faster, you usually have to sacrafice mileage unless its intake or exhaust. other crap probly wont work

[Moppie]

Actualy water injection has been proven to work, and is often used on race cars running very high boost levels resulting in very high compustion tempratures.

The water slows down the rate of compustion providing a more controlled burn, and of course water particles expanding into steam can't be bad for compustion pressures.

Of course it won't to much to the average family car expect steam clean the compustion chamber, which is not always a good thing.

[curtis73]

if the product works, why wouldnt the manufacturer of the car use the technology in the first place?

Well, to answer that is not easy. OEMs have an incredibly difficult time designing an entire package that fits together that its amazing they get designed at all. You have one committee on brakes, one on cam, cooling system, intake, computer, and heads, one on interior, one on weatherstripping, one for carpet... the list goes on forever. Until they all design everything and meet once a day, the brakes are inadequate for the weight, which means the rear axle has to be scrapped, which means the diesel engine now needs a vacuum pump to run the brakes.... its dizzying. By the time it comes to the reveal at the auto show, that car is lucky to have last year's cam and a leftover axle from a 73 Thunderbird under it just to look like it is on its own weight. Once they meet EPA and DOT requirements and can agree on one finished package, its Miller time. In the case of some cars, there is time to play around and tweak it, but for your average Tahoe, Taurus, or Jetta, its crunch time. Sure they could send the cam back to the engineering department to tweak the intake ramp for some more power below 3000 rpms, but why do it when the average driver won't know a bit of difference.

Contrast that with a company like Comp Cams who spends every waking hour developing new cam technology. Not only do they have the benefit of a single-minded goal, they take existing technology and they improve on it.

I think the distinction needs to be made between respected aftermarket items and scams. I think what Jveik may be trying to say is; if you have to ask why the OEMs didn't put a 73-cent tornado in at the factory to double their efficiency, then can it really be as good as they claim?

The examples you make, Jveik are very valid. Multiple sparks are generally not as good as one, hot spark kernel. Tornadoes tend to be counter-intuitive to what the OEMs try to avoid.

[Reed]

I agree 100% about the junk gadjets that need way to much advertising in order to sell. Common sense and a little physics should usually tell you what will and wont work.

However i disagree with the whole "stick to the tried and true" mentality. i think its great to experiment with new technology and new ideas. this is what helps to progress our technology and lap times. of course one should always keep in mind that if something seems so simple that it should already have been invented, it probably was and didnt work.

[TheSilentChamber]

In theory one spark would be more powerfull and hotter, but I have seen dyno's ran by a few differnt places that show the bosche platnum 4's to make about a half hp increase along the entire power band. Its only half hp.. but you know.. every bit counts.

[jveik]

yeah about the water injection... it does work if you have the right technology, but the ones that sell for cars i believe rely on engine vaccuum to suck it in. I know that in WW2 some high altitude bombers with supercharged engines used a mix of water and alcohol to get emergency power when needed. It worked great and the system used a pump to put the mixture in, where the automotive ones dont have their own pumps

[curtis73]

The passive injection kits for cars don't use manifold vacuum to inject water. If they did, you're right they would inject less water at the highest load; the opposite of what they should.

Instead they use a tube that installs before the TB. The slight negative pressure that is created between the filter and the throttle is what sucks it in... and the greater the RPM, the greater the vacuum in that case. Of course we're talking about the difference between zero vacuum and maybe 1 psi, but its enough to meter how much water gets sucked in. I did one on an old Olds 350. Worked pretty well until I ran it dry one day climbing a mountain. Lets just say 10:1 and 86 octane don't mix so well.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by curtis73

Worked pretty well until I ran it dry one day climbing a mountain. Lets just say 10:1 and 86 octane don't mix so well.

Hence the biggest problem with water injection, and one reason why it will never be seen on a poduction car.
Imagine the warrenty claims!

[Black Lotus]

Originally Posted by Moppie

compustion compustion compustion compustion.

Sounds gross. What is it?

[beef_bourito]

there are some water/alky injection kits/setups that use a pump (fuel pump?) to pump it and mistify it alot. they also use a very small spray nozzle to get it as fine as possible and so you don't give too much water. i think that's what someone said on one of the water/alky injection threads.

[Moppie]

Originally Posted by Black Lotus

Sounds gross. What is it?

Its combustion with a Kiwi accent.

[CBFryman]

Originally Posted by curtis73

The passive injection kits for cars don't use manifold vacuum to inject water. If they did, you're right they would inject less water at the highest load; the opposite of what they should.

Instead they use a tube that installs before the TB. The slight negative pressure that is created between the filter and the throttle is what sucks it in... and the greater the RPM, the greater the vacuum in that case. Of course we're talking about the difference between zero vacuum and maybe 1 psi, but its enough to meter how much water gets sucked in. I did one on an old Olds 350. Worked pretty well until I ran it dry one day climbing a mountain. Lets just say 10:1 and 86 octane don't mix so well.

which is why WI goes better with turbo
watter runes out, turbo drops boost.

water also increases compression because, as we know, it doesn like to be compressed past a certian point (which is why you get too much, say from driving through deep water, you get hydrolock and the engine wont turn over, you try to start it, and the engine cant turn over, you brake a rod because your starter has a great mechanical advantage or drain your battery)

the tornado works, in theory, it is said to give the air a spin which makes fule atomize better....which is true. however they are placed at the very begining of the air intake, this does one of two things wrong.
First, it obviously resticts flow
Second, spinning air doesnt flow in a linear direction as fast, meaning you loose air going into the engine and by the time the air reaches the intake runners where fule is injected most if not all of the spin is gone.

throttle body spacers with grooves cut into them are far more effective, still only gaining 1% more power if you are luckey.

Fule magnets... they do nothing, except maybe trap some particles that would otherwise clog your filter...nothing for power, and no they dont do what JCwhitney says they do..braking the clusters of molicules down or w/e.