Help Please! 97 Voyager issues...

[npye]

97 Voyager LE (3.8) with 80,000 KMs. Driving through the city for 5 minutes to the highway, on the highway for about 5 minutes, reach a steep climb over a bridge and start losing power. The van starts running really rough and I just make it over the top of the hill and down the other side. It's sputtering away and by the time I reach the bottom I'm pressing the gas but I have barely any power. The battery is fine, the temperature is fine. I pull over and it stalls a few seconds later. I can restart it but it's running really rough as if it's not getting enough fuel (tank is not empty).

I get towed to the dealership to leave it for them to look at in the morning. When I jump in the van (after being towed 20 KMs and having been shut off for about an hour) I start it up to move it across the lot to park it in the service area. It's now running just fine?!?! I let it idle for 10 minutes giving it some mild revs and theres no problems at all now.

What gives? I was thinking fuel pump maybe but I really have no idea. Just felt like I was out of gas...but now it's running fine.

Any thoughts as to what my problem could be? Do fuel pumps malfunction intermittently when they start to fail?

[dmcollazo]

when you turn your key to the on position but not start,,,do you hear a hum from the rear end? if so, it sounds like the pump is going. When you drive it warms up and builds up pressure...that's why when you stopped it cooled down. had the same happen. carried around extra cold gas in a container and added it when it happed till i could get the darn thing fixed. hope this helped.

[caravandrvr]

Save yourself a whole lot of money and heartburn - try running an extended alternator test as outlined in these posts. It's basiclly a free check, and it's a pass or fail kind of deal:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=419359

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=398005

[Rottweiler28]

When it got really bad did it seem that the more gas you tried to give it the more power you seemed to lose? If so I had the same problem and it turned out to be my O2 (Oxygen sensor was going south) I replaced this and it was fixed. Just my 2 cents. Wouldn't hurt I suppose to change the fuel filter to.Good luck.

[npye]

Yes, I had to let off the gas to get more power. The more I pressed it the more it stalled and sputtered out.

The dealer has it idling with a fuel pressure gauge attached. They're strongly suggesting it's the fuel pump but they admit to not knowing for sure yet. They're trying to get everything nice and hot to see of there is some pressure loss.

The computer spit out "misfire" codes of some kimd.

They want $835 CDN to replace the fuel pump and filter (if it gets to that point).

The van is 8 years old but it only has 80,000 KMs on it...!!!

[Rottweiler28]

Originally Posted by npye

They want $835 CDN to replace the fuel pump and filter (if it gets to that point)

You could do it yourself in about 2 hours with a second hand pump for about 30 dollars.

[npye]

Originally Posted by Rottweiler28

You could do it yourself in about 2 hours with a second hand pump for about 30 dollars.

They did say that it would be $500+ CDN for parts alone (pump and filter). I'm definitely going to shop around if this is indeed the culprit. I have also asked them to consider O2 sensors and alternation.

Thanks for the advice guys.

[Rottweiler28]

I would deff try replacing the O2 first as you can prob get one for about $53 Can. If that didn't fix it I would pick up a haynes manual ($20 Can) and a second hand pump assembly from a scrap yard for about 20 - 30 dollars Can and pick a nice day with a set of car ramps and do it yourself, not only will it save you money but you will feel a lot better about doing it yourself. If you decide to do it yourself make sure it is near empty of gas. I had to do this last week. I dropped the tank and pulled out the pump three diff times that day and it only took me 5 hours. Reason for all the times was a faulty sending unit. And it didn't cost me anything but time as a friend of mine who has three voyagers gave me a pump assembly.If you can get a friend to give you a hand and a trolly jack ( I used a 2 ton trolly jack and a piece of 2x4 under the tank to let her down slow) things will go a lot better. If you like I can pretty much give you a step by step myself if you are going to tackle this one. Again I would try the O2 first though, just my thoughts. Good luck.

[Rottweiler28]

Well I had some time to kill so I decided to type up a quick walk through on how I replace these fuel pumps. Make sure to read the end note. If anyone can add to this or feel I left something out please feel free to say so, I was a bit tired..lol. I will also post this as a new thread so anyone else thinking on doing it can see whats all to it. Good luck.

Fuel Pump Replacement Guide
Plymouth Voyagers/Caravans

First thing I did was make sure the van was pretty much on empty.
1) Back the van up onto a good pair of car ramps and block the front tires, apply the emergency brake if it makes you feel better, do all this on level ground, grass is nice and soft.
2) Next thing I did was open the gas cap on the side of the van to help reduce some pressure in the tank.
3) Place your trolley jack right under the gas tank as near to the middle as possible, use a piece of 2x4 about 2 feet long between the tank and the jack so there isn't to much pressure in one place on the tank to prevent damage. Make sure the 2x4 is running parallel with the van so you do not pin the straps between the tank and the 2x4 ( It sucks when this happens ).
4) Undo the 2 strap bolts from the gas tank (Air tools are a blessing here if you have them, I didn't) They may be tight so it wouldn't hurt to soak them with some WD-30 or the like for a few minutes before hand. You may even need a breaker bar or other similar strong ratchet for this part.
5) Now this part can be very different depending on whether or not someone has had the tank off before. Originally some of the three lines coming from the top of the tank (Main, return and vent I think) came factory with a plastic snap connector which you had to press together and pull the line out of. Mine was off before by the previous owner and he had cut and replaced these plastic lines with neoprene gas lines about 2 feet from the top of the tank, then they just used hose clamps to attach where they join into the lines on the frame behind the tank. I always do this when I take a tank down for the first time in case I have to take it down again (Makes life much easier I think). Either way you will have to disconnect these three lines in order for the tank to reach the ground without pulling these or breaking them. You will see some gas coming from two of these three lines so it wouldn't hurt to have a bucket on hand to try and catch some.
6) Now after you have the three lines off you will need to lower the tank with the jack about 8 inches or far enough to get your hand in over the tank. You will see a line in there also about 3 times larger then the ones you just removed, you should be able to see a hose clamp on this line over to the left if you are looking in from behind the tank. You need to loosen this clamp so the line slides out of the larger half. There should be no gas in this line as it is only a vent line to release air during fill ups.
7) Now you need to reach back in over the tank and unclip the wire harness going into the tank, this is what powers your fuel pump and gas gauge so be careful with it, there is a small tab which needs to be lifted as you slide the male connector out from the female. The wiring usually has a bit of play so you could even drop the tank a bit more if need be to get at it.
8) Now there should only be one more line left keeping you from dropping the tank to the ground, the large filler hose (Where you put the gas pump nozzle in during fill ups). You should be able to now let the jack down near all the way or almost anyway, make sure the wood stays in place for now. This one just slides into the tank, no hose clamps or brackets holding it. Now this is where the second hand would be helpful. At this point I usually get out from under the van and go to the side of the van away from the gas cap in order to grab the tank a slowly start pulling it out from under the van, at the same time it helps to have someone on the other side pushing the tank in your direction. You could also stay under the van for this and just grab and wiggle the tank free from the filler hose (Harder I think). Many people find it easier to just drop the tank onto their stomach/chest area and do this to. (This is where you want to make sure there is very little gas in the tank). Eventually the tank will pop off the filler hose and onto the ground. What little gas IS in the tank has a chance to leak out the filler hose hole in the tank so be forewarned. Now just take the tank to a place where you would like to work on it, like a workbench or picnic table.
9) Now you need to get the pump out of the tank. You will notice on top of the tank a large ring with four prongs sticking up about a quarter inch long. You will need a brass tap or wood and hammer to tap these prongs in a counter clock direction (Like unthreading a bolt out of a nut). It will need to rotate about 2 inches before it finally pops off. Now all you have to do is take the pump out of the tank, be careful here as the pump will come out easy but the mesh boot and float will not want to, the mesh boot will bend when you get to that point but you will need to tilt the pump off to one side for the float to clear the hole, then when you get to the boot just bend and pull easy. Again be careful here unless you just plan on tossing this in the junk anyway.
10) Now you just need to reverse all the steps you just completed and all should be well. I always try connecting the tank to the wire harness BEFORE putting it back in place to assure that the sending unit and tank are working ok or you may find that you can curse in languages you didn't even know you knew.
END NOTE - This is a guide of how I do my tanks, not a guide telling you how to do yours. If you use this guide to do your tank then do so at your own risk. Remember gas is very flammable and dangerous so take caution. And always remember Murphy’s law, if it can go wrong it WILL go wrong. Good luck.

[npye]

Holy cow man...thanks for the info!!!

I'm not sure at this point if I will try to tackle the pump on my own. I'm an IT guy so I have computer parts and software, not many hand tools or car ramps Anyway, my neighbour does and I know he'd be into it so I will keep this info handy. Appreciate it.

The dealer had it for the day. Charged my 1 hour labour and the correction on the invoice reads: DRB Test: No codes (1 trip shows short term +24.8). Fuel pressure OK at time of testing (possible fuel pump).

What does this +24.8 mean...is that indicating a period of low fuel pressure?

If the pressure is OK (they were reving it up without a pressure change and they had it idling for 2 - 3 hours) then why is the fuel pump the suspected problem? I think they're just guessing based on past experience and they admit that they're not 100% certain. So they suggested that I take the van back and "keep an eye on it". My wife is going to be so nervous driving this thing around with the kids in it....frustrating.

Can fuel pumps act up intermittently like this? Don't they just choke and pack it in when they're failing? I'm really hoping this never happens again as it only did it the one time but I know that's just wishful thinking.

Thanks again guys.

[Rottweiler28]

In my experience I have seen many fuel pumps go and yes usually they have just WENT. But they can get bad like any other part. I am still thinking O2 sensor on this one, again from past experience. Wouldn't hurt to have the fuel filter replaced at the least even if the pressure is up. It would prob only take your neighbor about 10 minutes to change this and it costs (well here anyway) $14 dollars. It is located bolted to the frame about half way back under the passenger side. It is about a third of the way in under the van. One 10 mm bolt holds it onto the frame and two hose clamps (One on each side of the filter) make sure the new one goes on the same way the old one came off, really hard to mix this up though. There are probably 100 more things it could be but start off with the obvious. Could also be sticking TB (throttle body), carbon build up in the TB and/or intake plenum.Even a PCV can cause some problems in the area and thats cheap to. But again, stick to the simple things. It starts when it gets hot, O2 sensors don't start to work until there hot (Theres a start). There could be something in the gas line and it takes its time getting to the filter (About the same amout of time this problem starts) where it then stops at the filter and plugs the filter or restricts gas flow throguh it. Start obvious and cheap then move from there, process of elimination. I doubt any one person can look at problems like this and say THIS IS IT and thats all. If so that person would be very rich..lol Again good luck and report back with your results. Oh and I work with computers to, No IT man but pretty good in the area and I still get greasy, think of it as a hobby always time to learn something new

[npye]

Some good advice, appreciate it.

I took it for a 30 minute drive tonight, accelerating moderately to hard most of the time. No problems at all. Running low on fuel so I threw in some fuel system cleaner (Penzoil) and filled it up with 92 octane gas. Burned around a little more, no issues.

So for now, I guess I need to wait for it to happen again, if it ever does...it only happened the one time mind you. It obviously makes my wife nervous, I just told her to stay in town for now.

I would have thought that a fuel pump would just stop working...not act-up for a few minutes once and then run fine 30 minutes later. But then again, as mentioned, I am just a nerd who wished he knew more about cars and how they work. I find it really interesting, just don't have the time to put into it.

[npye]

Today, the van has been hesitating and feel like it is going to stall when coming to a stop. Are we still thinking O2 sensor / fuel pump?

[faulty585]

this may sound dumb and am sure dealer checked but egr also opens after about ten minutes of driving if it is sticking open will cause same type of problems u describe as with most problems in autos today they usually set a code in computor also u dont mention the weather when u r having this prob weather affects lot of electronics in todays cars? i have had fuel pumps not work and towed customers vehicles in to have them work fine when i got to garage, then a week or so later was towing them in again, in answer to question do they just go out

[npye]

I drove the van all over town today and so did my wife...no problems at all.

So are you saying it's not likely the fuel pump as they either work properly or fail altogether?

Weather at the time (Sunday) was sunny and dry, about 15C...a nice day actually. Not likely related I realize, just offering up as much info as I can.

Is there more than 1 O2 sensor?