Political Viewpoint (LONG)

[Muscletang]

I saw this and it got me to thinking how divided we are and how this country is screwed up by partisan politics and political correctness.

We got guys saying our own government planned 9/11, rap artist saying, "Bush hates blacks" while trying to raise money for the Red Cross, people pointing fingers during Katrina, and all sorts of crap.

This article is on the war on terror but I think it has a good point that WE ALL should realize...

WE MUST STAND TOGETHER.

The way things are going if we keep at each other like this there soon won't be an America.

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).



The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.



First, let's examine a few basics:



1. When did the threat to us start? *Many will say September 11th, 2001. *The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; *Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983; Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York. **1988; First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998; Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998; *Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000; New York World Trade Center 2001; Pentagon 2001. *(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).



2. Why were we attacked? *Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We can't fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.



3. Who were the attackers? **In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.


4. What is the Muslim population of the World? **25%



5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful? *Hopefully, but that is really not material. *There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler
(who was also Christian), that made no difference. *You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. *There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including
7,000 Polish priests). (see http://www.nazis.testimony.co.uk/7-a.htm). *Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the 6 million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others. *Same with the Muslim terrorists. *They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way - their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. *The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing - by their own pronouncements - killing all of us "infidels". *I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. *What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?



6. So who are we at war with? *There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. *Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.







So with that background, now to the two major questions:



1. Can we lose this war?



2. What does losing really mean?







If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions. *We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?



It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. *This is as far from the truth as one can

get. *What losing really means is:



1. *We would no longer be the premier country in the world. *The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. *Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. *If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. *The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.



2. *We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them. *They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. *It will be increasingly easier for them. *They already hold Spain hostage. *It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. *Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. *Anything else they want Spain to do, will be done. *Spain is finished. *The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. *However, it may already be too late for France. *France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!



3. *If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. *If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else? *The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. **We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.



Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? *Simple. *Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. *And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.



So, how can we lose the war? *Again, the answer is simple. *We can lose the war by " imploding". *That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, *and really digging in and lending

full support to the war effort. *If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!



Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation:



- President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. *Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. **Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? *This is war! *For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights, we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently. And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. *We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then. *Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him? **No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. *None of those words apply to war.



- Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. *I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. *It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. *Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening, it concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.





- Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. *We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. *These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein. *And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. **And still more recently, the same type enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held. **Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners - not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them. Can this be for real? *The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. *If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can. *To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned, totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. *Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife.


Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years. *Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! *That translates into all non-Muslims - not just in the United States, but throughout the world. *We are the last bastion of defense.



We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant'. *That charge is valid in at least one respect. **We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! *We can't! *If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the World will survive if we are defeated. **And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone - let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. *If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.



If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. *They will continue to increase the Muslim population, of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. *The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve.



Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?



Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. *Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically, piece by politically correct piece. *And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide, that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or anyone, once they are in power. **They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. *Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?



I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. *If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. **I hope now factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. **It is your future I'm talking about! *Do whatever you can to preserve it.





After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. *There are those that find fault with our country, but it should be obvious to anyone who thinks this through, that we must UNITE whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, including the Politicians and Media of our country and the free world!

[TexasF355F1]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...Political Correctness has and is ruining our society. It's liberal hippie crap trying to hide the fact that life isn't fair and that whenever we're down the government should be there with check in hand to help us. It's bullshit and needs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

[Rally Sport]

Thats a good read and it is pretty true..

[T4 Primera]

That's the biggest load of crap I've ever read. No wonder the author is anonymous.

Shit! Where do I start?

1. When did the threat to us start? *Many will say September 11th, 2001. *The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979; *Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983; Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983; Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York. **1988; First New York World Trade Center attack 1993; Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996; Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998; Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998; *Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000; New York World Trade Center 2001; Pentagon 2001. *(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

Sure, I guess it didn't start with the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire and the years of colonialism and the drafting of arbitrary borders designed to inhibit the rise of any nation in the region to a position of strength by the British. I guess it didn't start with the birth of the state of Israel and the support given by the Western world as the residents of that land were forced from their ancestral homes. I guess it didn't start with US support of oppressive regimes in the Middle East as long as they were Wall Street freindly.

2. Why were we attacked? *Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We can't fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

The sooner you realise that th US military is a welfare program for the interests of Wall St and the military/industrial complex the sooner you'll work out why you were attacked. I refer you to statements made by two authors who had the guts to put their names to their opinions.

General Smedley Darlington Butler and President Dwight D. Eisenhower

*The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. *Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. *If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. *The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them.

Professor Robert Pape of the University of Chicago has at his disposal the largest and most complete database of terrorism in the world. Lets see what his opinion, based on his analysis of the data, says about attacks subsiding or increasing shall we?

RP: Many people worry that once a large number of suicide terrorists have acted that it is impossible to wind it down. The history of the last 20 years, however, shows the opposite. Once the occupying forces withdraw from the homeland territory of the terrorists, they often stop—and often on a dime.

In Lebanon, for instance, there were 41 suicide-terrorist attacks from 1982 to 1986, and after the U.S. withdrew its forces, France withdrew its forces, and then Israel withdrew to just that six-mile buffer zone of Lebanon, they virtually ceased. They didn’t completely stop, but there was no campaign of suicide terrorism. Once Israel withdrew from the vast bulk of Lebanese territory, the suicide terrorists did not follow Israel to Tel Aviv.

This is also the pattern of the second Intifada with the Palestinians. As Israel is at least promising to withdraw from Palestinian-controlled territory (in addition to some other factors), there has been a decline of that ferocious suicide-terrorist campaign. This is just more evidence that withdrawal of military forces really does diminish the ability of the terrorist leaders to recruit more suicide terrorists.

That doesn’t mean that the existing suicide terrorists will not want to keep going. I am not saying that Osama bin Laden would turn over a new leaf and suddenly vote for George Bush. There will be a tiny number of people who are still committed to the cause, but the real issue is not whether Osama bin Laden exists. It is whether anybody listens to him. That is what needs to come to an end for Americans to be safe from suicide terrorism. The Logic of Suicide Terrorism It’s the occupation, not the fundamentalism

But this has to be the worst one...

*Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! *

When the main stream media shows nothing more of the terrorists than video with the audio overdubbed with the comments of pundits (I call them Punt-Its) then people are easily duped into believeing crap like "they hate our freedom" or "they're jealous of us". That is why I posted a link to a Full transcript of bin Ladin's speech in this thread not so long ago. Bin Laden's stated goal can be deduced from the following excerpts of that speech.

Before I begin, I say to you that security is an indispensable pillar of human life and that free men do not forfeit their security, contrary to Bush's claim that we hate freedom. If so, then let him explain to us why we don't strike for example – Sweden? .....

....No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours.

No-one except a dumb thief plays with the security of others and then makes himself believe he will be secure. Whereas thinking people, when disaster strikes, make it their priority to look for its causes, in order to prevent it happening again.....

....In conclusion, I tell you in truth, that your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida.

No.

Your security is in your own hands. And every state that doesn't play with our security has automatically guaranteed its own security.......

However the anonymous author of this rubbish first builds the background of fear then seeks to scare people into fighting based on a series of half truths, if that. For someone who proposes that you aren't taking it all seriously enough, he's pretty careless with the facts and information.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. *There are those that find fault with our country, but it should be obvious to anyone who thinks this through, that we must UNITE whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, including the Politicians and Media of our country and the free world!

I'll answer this one with my own opinion.

The Democrats & Republicans (referring to the politicians) are for the most part united already with eachother and with the corporate media and with Wall St and with the military/industrial complex.

Members of Congress Increasingly Use Revolving Door to Launch Lucrative Lobbying Careers

As for the people, I have my own opinion about what needs to happen in the best interest of the people of the US. I'll not state it here though.

[tenguzero]

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/time/2001/12/10/see.html

And guess what? A year later, we were marching into Iraq. LIttle wonder that there's hostility towards the U.S. and our allies -- we just don't know when to quit. Coincidentally, that's the same attitude this whole viewpoint takes: we have to keep going, keep chugging along, win the war against terrorism, etc. Well I ask you: what war? This government seems to have little trouble lumping together terrorists as some sort of combatable "body." And yet every day our president and his cabinet tell us that "we are fighting an illusive enemy, one like we have never known, etc." Little do they realize, but they're flat out contradicting themselves. Big time. The catch is -- and I implore any who think we can "fight it out" to heed this --

Terrorism is NOT a physical body, it is an IDEAL. You cannot, NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY OR RESOURCES YOU THROW AT IT, combat an ideal. Our leaders are right when they say this is a new threat, one like we haven't faced before, but they're completely ass-backwards in how they're dealing with it, and the world knows this, and so do an increasing number of people in the U.S.

President Bush is also fond of saying that these people "hate us for who we are" and what we represent. That is such a load of bullshit it isn't funny. Any Muslim will tell you, Islam has always been one of the most open and accepting religions in the world. Are there people who see it a different way, extremists who take it to some sort of horribly misguided and psychotic end? Of course there are. There always has been, in nearly EVERY major religion of the world. But that doesn't mean an entire race of people are out to get us. Islam isn't some sort of way out religion, providing a wonderful breeding ground for whackos (unlike what people like Michael Savage may claim) as a matter of fact, the similarities between Islam and Christianity are incredible -- the only real differences lie in methods of reverence, view of prophets, etc. Islam does, after all, share many foundations with those of Christian ideals. Allah isn't some sort of "other" god, Allah IS God, the same one as Christianity and Judaism pray to -- Allah is just the Arabic word for God. And how about "Jyhad/Jihad"? How many people actually know what that word MEANS? It literally translates to "Struggle." That's right, it's not a word for some holy war or fundamental extremism, it's simply "struggle" in Arabic. Which brings me back to the ludicrous liberties taken by our leaders in referring to this war in the Arab world. Do you know what the number one point of conflict is against us on the part of Muslim society?

Foreign Policy.

That's right. It's not how we live, or the way we live, or what we do with our personal lives. It's how we attempt to shape THEIRS! It's how we maintain alliances with countries who have their own checkered pasts -- and then not only do we ally with them, but we go one step further and SUPPORT them! Once again, it comes back to our foreign policy. And who are the people who make foreign policy, the ones who directly fund foreign policy, and the ones who (conveniently enough) benefit the most from it? It sure as hell isn't the public! What's our alliance with Israel done for you lately? Or your neighbors? Or your employer? The answer is nothing, unless, of course, you or your employer stand to benefit from the sale of military armament to Israel. Then it's a whole different story. What do you stand to gain from a "free and democratic" Iraq? Possibly some lower prices at the pump for an antiquated fuel who's days are numbered anyways ? Well, that sure seems worth the $300+ billion price tag that our children and their children will be paying off long into their lives (and that is just the cost of the war -- wait until the numbers start rolling in for the cost of rebuilding! Guess who's going to end up fronting the lion's share of THAT bill?)

Why do all these idiot talking heads on TV and radio think people who are against the war, or speak out in opposition of our leaders, "hate" America? Why do we "hate" America? Because we're tired of imperialistic policies? Because we're tired of a war every ten or fifteen years? Because we're tired of watching each succesive generation of politicians balloon our military budget ever larger? Because we don't like the rest of the world talking trash behind our backs and providing perfunctory alliances with us to maintain some fragile veil over their ultimate dislike of our policies? Of course many of these countries have plenty of skeletons in their own closets (indeed many of them were right alongside us in the destruction of the Ottoman Empire) but as it stands right now, at this moment in history, WE are essentially the sole aggressors. Sure, Iraq was under the fist of a ruthless dictator, a man who horribly mis-spent their money and only hurt his country, but what was our answer to that? Was it to impose sanctions on everything (including the source of his money, our desire for oil) and attempt to force him into playing fair with his people, or give them the opening to seize control for themselves and refashion things the way they want? No. Our answer was to rally the troops and head on in, not just deposing him, but destroying the country and the society these people have built up over millenia. Was there tumultuous goings-on within their own borders, between those people themselves? Sure there was, but that's also within the oldest part of human civilization, a place that, despite essentially being the center of all major WORLD conflicts and religions throughout recorded history, has interestingly enough managed to NOT self-destruct. They must be doing something right. Indeed, the majority of the greatest conflicts that have ever taken place over there were not their own, they were waged by outside powers, waving the banners of imperialism, self-interest, and total ignorance.

Our politicians and supporters of this agenda always seem to believe we're doing the right thing, and they can't understand why a handful of psychos begin to let loose with nothing sort of utter violence. The answer is just that: their methods are psychotic, but the reasons behind it are actually quite understandable when you get to the heart of the matter. They see us as an invading force, moving in to impose our way of life on them, so they respond with the various methods that are the most readily available to them. What did this country's leaders do for the forty or so YEARS that they convinced themselves communism was going to be the ultimate downfall of the American society? They reacted accordingly, in the methods most readily available: nuclear standoffs, covert espionage tactics, and an all out propaganda war the likes of which few had ever seen.

Have trouble understanding how extremism can take root in the extremist of today? Why don't you ask our own government! There is so much outlandish shit that went on behind the closed doors of organizations like the CIA, the FBI and various covert military agencies it's hard to believe most of them are still around now. And how did they justify all this far out, "extreme" activity? They called it

"In the interest of national security."

And there is your answer right there, the reason behind so many of these heinous acts perpetrated by some very deranged, yet very determined individuals. They're doing it in the interest of their security. Arab's have no problem with our lifestyles, or how we choose to live them. Hell, one of our biggest commodities makes many of them VERY rich people. What many of them don't like is when we try to force our lifestyle's on THEM. And then we cry foul when extremist members of their society take it to heinous levels. What did the imperial powers THINK was going to happen when they began to (and continue to) cut up and reshape the oldest part of human civilization? That this ancient society was just going to rollover and accept it?

The U.S., indeed much like Rome, is an amazing story of how fast a nation can become great. But that was, in the end, Rome's downfall. They expanded too much, tied up too much of their resources in foreign interests, and fell victim to a long succession of poor leaders.

We as a country are teetering dangerously on the brink of collapse, and our leaders are refusing to heed the lessons of past civilizations. They continue to march us onward like lemmings toward some sort of ultimate ideal that they've managed to convince themselves of. And right behind them are the corporations and agencies and any other group that stands to make money off this march, and thereby justify and continue the pursuit of their own excesses (coincidentally ALSO a factor in Rome's demise.) And finally behind all these self-serving politicians and greedy entities lapping up the payouts from their exploits, come the people. The ultimate victims of it all, whether paying at the pump with our money, or half a world away with our lives. Indeed, the greatest menace of all to our society, and our lives as we know them, is us, and the leaders we choose to speak for us and make all the important decisions. Just as the article that this thread is about is so vocal in pointing out: WE MUST UNITE. But not to support some half-baked war, or continued poor foreign policies. We must unite and take a stand against the powers that threaten to seperate us and tear us asunder, and these powers come from the very place they did in Rome and every other vast civilization, the very place it's the hardest for we the people of this great country to admit: this threat is one from within, and it's strolling the halls of our capital buildings, and government centers, and corporate America. It's a threat we (for most people) unwittingly unleashed, and we're the only ones who can stop it.

[YogsVR4]

Originally Posted by T4 Primera

That's the biggest load of crap I've ever read. No wonder the author is anonymous.

Shit! Where do I start?

Sure, I guess it didn't start with the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire and the years of colonialism and the drafting of arbitrary borders designed to inhibit the rise of any nation in the region to a position of strength by the British. I guess it didn't start with the birth of the state of Israel and the support given by the Western world as the residents of that land were forced from their ancestral homes. I guess it didn't start with US support of oppressive regimes in the Middle East as long as they were Wall Street freindly.

Speaking of load of crap. We can sit here all day running back through history looking to point a finger, but guess what, today its not the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire, the Huns, the Goths, the Viking, the Persions or anyone else. Its a specific group of people that are looking to kill, maim and destroy. I don't have to say it, because everyone knows it. Think about that before anyones gets to the racist name calling.

The sooner you realise that th US military is a welfare program for the interests of Wall St and the military/industrial complex the sooner you'll work out why you were attacked. I refer you to statements made by two authors who had the guts to put their names to their opinions.

Welfare of Wall Street? You mean that nobody who gets that money employs others? Produces any goods? They're just like the welfare people line up for because they're to lazy to work their way up? (sure there are some reall needy, but we all know its not nearly the number taking the check and providing nothing).


As for the rest of the dribble you quoted; To use your own term, its a load of crap. The man has an agenda and selectively picks 'facts' to support his arguement.

[AlmostStock]

I'd like to thank you guys for putting so much time into what is an interesting thread. It certainly demonstrates the vast difference in opinions on how best to handle the terrorist situation. Some think that somehow a united and strong military response will fix it all, and are prepared to go down burning in an all out holy war before ever changing course.

Even if we all agreed to "unite" under this idea of response I don't think it would change a thing. The Muslim extremists doing this crap have even stronger convictions than us that they are doing the right thing, and are not going to quit just because some of them are killed. If anything it only fuels more to join them, even those who were previously moderate and moral Muslims. Besides, because these extremists are worldwide and claim no true leader other than Allah, there can never be a surrender by a country or government that will end terrorist activity.

Others want to eliminate the tactic of terrorism by eliminating its causes. This seams more practical to me. T4 and Tenguzero did a great job of pointing out these causes. One thing's for sure. Neither side will change many minds of the other.

[MBTN]

It's a sad situation we've gotten outselves into here, but now we gotta deal with it. Nobody likes war, and I don't think anyone really wants it (except those crazies saying "KILL THEM ALL!" ). However, it is here to stay. This country is now in this mess, and now is NOT the time to faulter, and second guess the decisions. What's done is done. It needs to be put under control asap and thus I think it's time to really commit. We can't be withdrawing from the middle east, too late for that. We need to put double the forces and double their pay, none of this halfing. This is the mess we are in, and now it's time to commit and stick to our guns. Either way it's a disaster (pulling all out now or going all in). This is the crazy world we live in.

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by AlmostStock

Even if we all agreed to "unite" under this idea of response I don't think it would change a thing. The Muslim extremists doing this crap have even stronger convictions than us that they are doing the right thing,

I disagree. At least I disagree that the leaders of these extremist believe they are doing the "right thing". As I said before....Doing the right thing denotes a certain amount of nobility or beliefe in their cause. These guys are nothing more than war lords or drug lords so to speak wanting to run their part of the world in a way that profits them. The US,GB and it's allies are in the way so they need to eliminate us from the picture. We promote something that flies in the face of everyting they are trying to accomplish (which is dominance over the masses). We promote freedom and democracy. Look at the culture they promote. Freedom of choice is completely stiffeled. Individuality is not an option.
Everyone must look and be the same and everyone must worship the same and everyone must take their ques from those they set up as "religious leaders". People are simply cattle to be used and guided with the promise of better things to come when this pathetic life is over. "If you suffer enough you will get rewards later"

The conviction these leaders of terrorism show is simply from their need for power and influence. Eventually these convictions will faulter because there is nothing noble or honest about them. Greed is never a strong enough motivator for the masses in the long run because the masses don't share in the plunder. Freedom on the other hand is a great motivator because all profit in some way from it. Freedom is a noble cause.


My how I do like to ramble.

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by Muscletang

I saw this and it got me to thinking how divided we are and how this country is screwed up by partisan politics and political correctness.

We got guys saying our own government planned 9/11, rap artist saying, "Bush hates blacks" while trying to raise money for the Red Cross, people pointing fingers during Katrina, and all sorts of crap.

This article is on the war on terror but I think it has a good point that WE ALL should realize...

WE MUST STAND TOGETHER.

The way things are going if we keep at each other like this there soon won't be an America.

I'm voting for you.

"Any Muslim will tell you, Islam has always been one of the most open and accepting religions in the world. Are there people who see it a different way, extremists who take it to some sort of horribly misguided and psychotic end? Of course there are."

Yup. And Islam got it's start by Muhammed Knocking on people's doors and asking them to join his religion. Yup. And Antartica is hot as hell.

Cmon people, Muhammed brainwashed enough people to form a small army, and then from one city to another, well let's just say i bet most the oil there is from decomposed former saudi-area tribesmen.

[tenguzero]

Originally Posted by ifidie2nite

I'm voting for you.

"Any Muslim will tell you, Islam has always been one of the most open and accepting religions in the world. Are there people who see it a different way, extremists who take it to some sort of horribly misguided and psychotic end? Of course there are."

Yup. And Islam got it's start by Muhammed Knocking on people's doors and asking them to join his religion. Yup. And Antartica is hot as hell.

Cmon people, Muhammed brainwashed enough people to form a small army, and then from one city to another, well let's just say i bet most the oil there is from decomposed former saudi-area tribesmen.

Yup. And christianity became the dominant religion it is today by peacefully embracing all types of people and beliefs.

Oh yeah, except for that Medieval Inquisition thing. And the Spanish Inquisition. And the witch-hunts. And the acceptance of slavery. And the sexism. And then more witch hunts. And the perversion of human sexuality. And the racism. And the destructive campaigns against "heretical" works. And then some more witch hunts. And the corruption. And a dash of child molestation.

Someone's bought into the anti-Islam propaganda -- hook, line, and sinker.

Welcome to the world of organized religion, buddy. Say, isn't our president a "Born-again Christian"? Because then surely he MUST be guilty of all kinds of crimes like those above, I mean, he IS of the faith.

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Yup. And christianity became the dominant religion it is today by peacefully embracing all types of people and beliefs.
Oh yeah, except for that Medieval Inquisition thing. And the Spanish Inquisition. And the witch-hunts. And the acceptance of slavery. And the sexism. And then more witch hunts. And the perversion of human sexuality. And the racism. And the destructive campaigns against "heretical" works. And then some more witch hunts. And the corruption. And a dash of child molestation.

Nope. The romans and eventually the Saxons (Early British) abused Christianity for political and ethnical reasons. The witch hunts in europe and america were based off insecurities about their religion. They just didn't fully comprehend it. The acceptance of slavery was not centered around religion. The early slaves were prisoners of wars and were enslaved based on the "white-supremecy" idea.

As far as sexism, I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Yada yada, more witch hunt rambling.

Perversion of human sexuality? Again I don't know what you're talking about. If you're talking about bestiality and homosexuality that came from physical desires, not religion.

More witch hunt rambling...

The anti-heretical campaigns you speak of I guess you're talking about Rome again and the early papacy, which, again, abused Christianity as a reason to fight a more political war.

As far as the child molestation goes, that is mainly in Catholicism, and not overall-Christianity. I have no full idea on how to answer that but i do know the bible doesn't say "Thou shalt moleste thine children". One explanation that has gained ground to the catholic sex abuse scandals is that during the 50s-60's, alot of gays and child molesters became catholic priests because it was easier to hide their perversions, and still cop a feel on a kid in the baptismal pool or so.

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Welcome to the world of organized religion, buddy. Say, isn't our president a "Born-again Christian"? Because then surely he MUST be guilty of all kinds of crimes like those above, I mean, he IS of the faith.

Yes bush is a christian, but the only things hes guilty of in my opinion and from his record are DUI, Smoking, not being able to find the WMDs, and buying into the god-forsaken fuel cell idea.

Originally Posted by tenguzero

Someone's bought into the anti-Islam propaganda -- hook, line, and sinker.

K fine. If im anti-islamic then you must be anti-jewish and anti-christian, according you your thinking pattern here and your words. The reason I've said what i've said is because Islam would like none other than to wage a Jihad against america and then the world. You dont see christian pastors (discluding that idiotic florida preacher) running around asking for the heads of world leaders.

So again, think before you speak. Thank you.

[tenguzero]

You do realize that by attempting to narrow down all of those abuses commited within the kingdom of Christianity to point towards the individual bodies (whether people or government) that committed them, you just entirely reinforced my point, right? You can't paint an entire religion by the convictions and activities of certain groups within it.

And then in your last statement about Islam "waging a Jihad" (which they're entirely in their right to do, since, as I've already noted, 'Jihad' means 'struggle' in Arabic, and as long as no one is hurting anyone else, Jihad's are fine by me -- hell, many days my life is a Jihad) you then completely negated your own argument, by stating "because Islam would like none other than to wage a Jihad against america and then the world." You just painted Islam in the same broad brush you accused me of painting Christianity and Judaism in by claiming that I must be against them.

That's the mentality with too many people in America right now. That somehow, because a few bad seeds take their beliefs to the extreme, that a whole religion is to blame. It's actually kind of ironic, really: the same people who are so quick to rag on the media for only showing "the bad things that happen in Iraq" then using that as a springboard to claim that people against the war are only buying into the media agenda, don't hesitate use those same bad things to launch blanket statements about an entire religion (Islam) to support their own viewpoints.

One of these people might say the majority of things happening in Iraq are good, and the media's only showing us the bad? Well I'm going to say the majority of Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning people who just want to practice their religion without being called terrorists, but the media's only showing the bad guys.

[ifidie2nite]

Originally Posted by tenguzero

You do realize that by attempting to narrow down all of those abuses commited within the kingdom of Christianity to point towards the individual bodies (whether people or government) that committed them, you just entirely reinforced my point, right? You can't paint an entire religion by the convictions and activities of certain groups within it.

Exactly my point. And you cant paint christianity just because a few idiots decide to enforce political propaganda on the basis of religion. Everyone in every religion does it, yes I know. I never said otherwise. Personally theres times I'd like to give some of these christian pastors a few slaps upside the head. Also I dont get how explaining how you were wrong about christianity and political war mongers being seperate emphasised your point.

Originally Posted by tenguzero

And then in your last statement about Islam "waging a Jihad" (which they're entirely in their right to do, since, as I've already noted, 'Jihad' means 'struggle' in Arabic, and as long as no one is hurting anyone else, Jihad's are fine by me -- hell, many days my life is a Jihad) you then completely negated your own argument, by stating "because Islam would like none other than to wage a Jihad against america and then the world." You just painted Islam in the same broad brush you accused me of painting Christianity and Judaism in by claiming that I must be against them.

Have you read the Qu'ran? There's verses (and I'll be happy to list a few) that give specific orders to wage a war against pagans and non-believers. This is where my dislike of Islam as a religion comes from, not the media.

Originally Posted by tenguzero

One of these people might say the majority of things happening in Iraq are good, and the media's only showing us the bad? Well I'm going to say the majority of Muslims are peaceful, well-meaning people who just want to practice their religion without being called terrorists, but the media's only showing the bad guys.

Again, refer to what I said above about the verses. I believe that if most muslims knew about these verses (and I believe they do, they just ignore them) they would really be hesitant in standing up and saying, "I'm proud to be muslim". I do agree with you on the fact that the media portrays muslims as a whole as terrorists, which is wrong. Despite my dislike of islam, I have a few muslim friends myself and they I believe are only confrontational because theyre trying to fight this very terrorist-stereotype.

[fredjacksonsan]

IMO any group that suggests killing everyone not of the group, and then begins to carry out that action, should itself be removed for the good of everyone.