Moderating Issues

[CivicSpoon]

I am taking this time to voice some concerns and issues of the way somethings are being moderated, more specifically in the Honda/Acura forums. I came to this decision after many members have voiced concerns and issues, and I expect many of the members will join this discussion in a calm reasonable manner. And also by taking the advice that J_Swigz gave: "If you have a problem with the moderating being done, you're welcome to voice your opinion in our hot or not section. Otherwise, don't talk shit without a good explanation." http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=331434
This will not become a personal attack or thread of disrespect, I repeat will not. If you can't come in this thread without calling names, throwing insults, or otherwise personally attacking someone; then please do not post in this thread. Because this is not what this thread is about.

Let me start out of an example of what kind of things I'm refering to when I say there are issues. One recent (today) example is the banning of Ricochet. Now I don't know what was said between him and the mosds after being temporary banned, and frankly I don't care because it is none of my business and I don't want it to be my business. With that being said, I don't agree with him being banned to begin with, again I'm using this one instance as an example only. He did infact make comments about someone's choice of a paint job, and in a rude way. However, this kind of thing goes on every single day in the Honda and Acura forums. Many people do this, some just to get a reaction, some who feel the need to push their beliefs on others, and some who have been down the road before and realized it was a bad idea afterwards. I myself and guilty of doing this, I'm not going to pretend that I don't. However if this sort of activity can cause someone to be banned, then there should be a lot more people being banned for doing much worse. If you do to most forums on AF, you are guarenteed to see minimum of 1 thread bashing Hondas and Acuras. Unless it's specifically in one of the Honda/Acura sub forums, then rarely is there anything done about it. Here's an example from the Celica forum entitled "civics suck" :http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ht=civic+ricer The thread went to 5 pages and not a single mod stepped in and closed it or banned any of the members insulting Civics. Unfortunetly for me trying to show examples this is all I could come up with because when I search it only allows 4 pages of results.

Next I'd like to mention some issues with some moderators giving people attitude based on the fact that they don't agree with someone. I have no experience of being a moderator on any forum, let alone a forum the size of AF. However I assume that being a moderator or admin is a very stressful job. You see people breaking rules, flooding boards, being banned and returning to flood board, etc. However there should be no reason for a moderator to ever jump on someone, call names, or otherwise insult someone. As explained by crayzayjay "Contrary to what you may believe, being a moderator does not make you exempt from following the AF Guidelines. Being an ass to members may get you banned." And one of the Guidelines of AF is "Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack." With this being said one instance of moderators abusing this rule this took place last month in an IWC thread. The thread was about Related Links, as some of you may recall this thread. It has also since been deleted, so I can not show quotes of proof from this thread. However I will explain further without the use of proof. In this thread there were 2 or 3 moderators who came into the thread and proceded to insult and be rude to any and all members who didn't like the links at the bottom of the page. I do remember one of the mods who made these comments, off the top of my head, but for sake of discussion there is no reason to name anyone; especially since I'm not making this thread to cause any problems. called those members "whine asses", "whiny bitches", among other things such as ridiculing someone for spelling errors. I personally asked them to discontinue such comments and not resort to insults; just because they didn't agree. However none of the moderators were ever banned for this conduct, whereas other members have been banned for such.

I'd like to say that for the mass majority of the time all moderators and admins for an incredible job. I just feel that a few from the moderating staff should really think about what is fair. As the old saying goes "what's good for the goose is good for the gander." In short meaning; it's not fair to ban someone for something that a few moderators have done themselves before, as well as it's not fair to ban 1 person for something that another has done with no repercussions. I think everyone could agree on this. I'd also like to state that since MiataRacer and Eckoman_PDX have become mods, they have done a great job and can clearly handle the responsibilities of moderating the Honda Civic forums and more. They have been on the H/A forums for long enough to know the regulars and know how the new members act. I understand that a moderator is a moderator, but if a problem arises on the H/A forums I feel they should be the ones to fix the issue. I know that neither would ever show favortism to a member based on how long they've been there. This last part is my personal opinion, and I know that not everyone (if anyone) will share that thought. And like I said, I understand that a moderator is a moderator. I just feel that they know people on those forums better than a moderator who isn't there on a regular basis.

Again this is not ment to be a "bash fest" in any way shape or form. And if anyone who wants to turn it into one should steer clear of responding, because it's not needed or wanted. I just wanted to get some of these issues out there. And I have tried to explain it the best of my ability. I mean no disrespect to anyone, these are just things that need to be said. Everyone please feel free to respond in a repectful and intelligent manner. And feel free to contact me or respond in this thread if you have any comments or questions on anything I've written. Thank you for reading.

[TheSilentChamber]

I'd just like to say I agree with everything civicspoon said and stand behind this thread 100%.

[honda_luvr_2000]

i haven't been around as long as sum others (civic spoon), but i have been on fairly consistant since i found this place. as of lately i have been seeing an increase in the banning and by mods i haven't seen in a while (if ever). so i guess in other words i too agree w/ civicspoon. i do remember the IWC thread he was referring too. kinda hypocritical if u ask me. if this is ban worthy, then i guess ban me. i know this is a worldwide forum, but i believe everyone is entitled to their opinion when they feel they r being treated unjustly. from personal experience, Ricotech, as harsh as he might have been from time to time, was very helpful and knowlegdible. if we'r getting rid of our seniors, who's gonna be left to help the rest?

[jon@af]

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

I am taking this time to voice some concerns and issues of the way somethings are being moderated, more specifically in the Honda/Acura forums. I came to this decision after many members have voiced concerns and issues, and I expect many of the members will join this discussion in a calm reasonable manner. And also by taking the advice that J_Swigz gave: "If you have a problem with the moderating being done, you're welcome to voice your opinion in our hot or not section. Otherwise, don't talk shit without a good explanation." http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=331434
This will not become a personal attack or thread of disrespect, I repeat will not. If you can't come in this thread without calling names, throwing insults, or otherwise personally attacking someone; then please do not post in this thread. Because this is not what this thread is about.

Thank you for doing this in a respectable manner.

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

Now I don't know what was said between him and the mosds after being temporary banned, and frankly I don't care because it is none of my business and I don't want it to be my business. With that being said, I don't agree with him being banned to begin with, again I'm using this one instance as an example only. He did infact make comments about someone's choice of a paint job, and in a rude way.

If you do not care what was said, or what happened, then you would be apathetic to the banning altogether nor would you have cited him as an example. The fact of the matter is, Ricochet had been given many warnings in the past, as well as temporary bans. Due to the fact that he was indeed quite the contributor to the Honda/Acura forums, he was shown leniency in his time of removal. However, there comes a point in every case such as this when one pushes ones luck, and he reached that point. He was openly offensive in the thread, making slurs towards homosexuals, and implying that those who did certain things were in fact homosexual. I don't believe that a member should be looked down on for choice of dress. I'm not sure if this answers any question for you, perhaps you could elaborate as to why you do not agree with Ricochet being banned.

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

However, this kind of thing goes on every single day in the Honda and Acura forums. Many people do this, some just to get a reaction, some who feel the need to push their beliefs on others, and some who have been down the road before and realized it was a bad idea afterwards. I myself and guilty of doing this, I'm not going to pretend that I don't. However if this sort of activity can cause someone to be banned, then there should be a lot more people being banned for doing much worse. If you do to most forums on AF, you are guarenteed to see minimum of 1 thread bashing Hondas and Acuras. Unless it's specifically in one of the Honda/Acura sub forums, then rarely is there anything done about it. Here's an example from the Celica forum entitled "civics suck" :http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...ht=civic+ricer The thread went to 5 pages and not a single mod stepped in and closed it or banned any of the members insulting Civics. Unfortunetly for me trying to show examples this is all I could come up with because when I search it only allows 4 pages of results.

Though we do have many moderators on our staff, it is an international group of folks. That being the case, we are not all online at the same time and we cannot always catch things that occur in every forum. If there is a thread that you notice somewhere that you feel is getting out of hand, by all means report it. There is an option at the bottom of every post that allows you to give a reason for reporting it, and when you confirm it, it is sent to every moderator that is on the site who uses email (which is the majority).

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

Next I'd like to mention some issues with some moderators giving people attitude based on the fact that they don't agree with someone. I have no experience of being a moderator on any forum, let alone a forum the size of AF. However I assume that being a moderator or admin is a very stressful job. You see people breaking rules, flooding boards, being banned and returning to flood board, etc. However there should be no reason for a moderator to ever jump on someone, call names, or otherwise insult someone. As explained by crayzayjay "Contrary to what you may believe, being a moderator does not make you exempt from following the AF Guidelines. Being an ass to members may get you banned." And one of the Guidelines of AF is "Don't attack others. Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully ... without insult and personal attack." With this being said one instance of moderators abusing this rule this took place last month in an IWC thread. The thread was about Related Links, as some of you may recall this thread. It has also since been deleted, so I can not show quotes of proof from this thread. However I will explain further without the use of proof. In this thread there were 2 or 3 moderators who came into the thread and proceded to insult and be rude to any and all members who didn't like the links at the bottom of the page. I do remember one of the mods who made these comments, off the top of my head, but for sake of discussion there is no reason to name anyone; especially since I'm not making this thread to cause any problems. called those members "whine asses", "whiny bitches", among other things such as ridiculing someone for spelling errors. I personally asked them to discontinue such comments and not resort to insults; just because they didn't agree. However none of the moderators were ever banned for this conduct, whereas other members have been banned for such.

As much as I hate to admit it, I was among those moderators who were being ridiclous in the aforementioned thread. I cannot speak for the others because that is not my place. I can, however, agree that looking at my comments, I could have handled them differently. However, if you have an issue with a specific moderator on the site, you should feel free to private message them about the said issue. Though we may seem harsh at times, it is something that happens to everyone at any given point, depending on the issue. We do not want the members of this site to be afraid to message the moderators with a piece of criticism for fear of being banned. If you do have something to mention to a moderator about his or her performance, contact them privately and respectfully, and the response will, I would very much hope, be civil.

[Igovert500]

I can understand your concerns with some of the topics you posted about...and I'll do my best to address them, but I don't have specific knowledge of a few.

Over the last month or two, there has been plenty of trouble in the Honda/Acura forums. I know personally, one repeat offender was definantly getting on my nerves. We are moderators, but we are also human too. There will be times when we slip up, and don't word something the best we could have, simply due to stress, anger, frustration...whatever.

I know I can screw up and therefore when it comes to members who post inappropriately, I try to pass on a few warnings regarding the way they post, prior to taking any action. Essentially giving them the benefit of the doubt.

That being said, don't presume that you guys know the entire story everytime. There are situations where members will step out of line outside the realm of public posts. I am not implying any specific people. But PMs and emails are exchanged, there are factors beyond the posts that you all see. AF has rules that when broken result in immediate action...no warnings necessary.
So simply because you don't percieve justified grounds for a ban, doesn't mean that a good reason doesn't exist.

I appreciate your concern and see where you are coming from...but at the same time, see where we are coming from. Nobody is perfect, but we do our best to keep this forum running smoothly. Decisions were made, and we stand behind them.

[CivicSpoon]

Originally Posted by J_Swigz

If you do not care what was said, or what happened, then you would be apathetic to the banning altogether nor would you have cited him as an example. The fact of the matter is, Ricochet had been given many warnings in the past, as well as temporary bans. Due to the fact that he was indeed quite the contributor to the Honda/Acura forums, he was shown leniency in his time of removal. However, there comes a point in every case such as this when one pushes ones luck, and he reached that point. He was openly offensive in the thread, making slurs towards homosexuals, and implying that those who did certain things were in fact homosexual. I don't believe that a member should be looked down on for choice of dress. I'm not sure if this answers any question for you, perhaps you could elaborate as to why you do not agree with Ricochet being banned.

I definently agree that any offensive comments about someones sexuality, race, or gender; is out of line. I'm not trying to defend his actions by any means. But on a weekly basis I see many people call other or things "g**" or "ghey". It doesn't mean it's right, but it does happen on a regular basis. And I personally (my opinion only) don't think it's ever ment in a literal way. It's kind of like how people use the word "retarded". Technically it means slow, but many people use it as a word for autistic people. Yet when the "average" person uses that word, they don't mean autistic or slow; it's become a common word for some. So basically I feel if one person gets banned for using such a word then anyone who uses it should, or no one should. I think a warning would be the best option for such actions, but you already stated that he had been warned repeatedly. Maybe instead of using him as an example I should have said in a situation similar to this one, at least the information that was publicly out there.

Originally Posted by Igovert500

I know I can screw up and therefore when it comes to members who post inappropriately, I try to pass on a few warnings regarding the way they post, prior to taking any action. Essentially giving them the benefit of the doubt.
That being said, don't presume that you guys know the entire story everytime. There are situations where members will step out of line outside the realm of public posts. I am not implying any specific people. But PMs and emails are exchanged, there are factors beyond the posts that you all see. AF has rules that when broken result in immediate action...no warnings necessary.
So simply because you don't percieve justified grounds for a ban, doesn't mean that a good reason doesn't exist.

I completely understand what you're saying. That's what I ment by not knowing the whole situation and not wanting to know, because it's none of my business. I absolutely agree that if a member steps out of line with a moderator, as you put it, outside the relm of public post, there there is no excuse for that. It's written in the guidelines: "If you've been caught or accused of a wrongdoing don't get irrational."

Thanks to both of you mods for responding to this thread, I appreciate it.

[honda_luvr_2000]

CivicSpoon, thank u for beginning this thread and linking it in u'r sig. i prolly wouldn't have found it as easily, had u not. hopefully it will shed a little more light on the issue of banning that most don't catch onto as quickly

As for the mods that responded, thank you also for clearing up sum for me. like i had said i haven't been here as long as others, so i did not know the whole story, and i guess i failed to realize there could have been, and apparently was, action taken outside public view by those banned that deserved such action. I guess we all can take sumthin from this thread and hopefully many others will too. maybe sum will learn there actually r consequences even though it's so impersonal (the internet is). and it doesn't matter who or wut u r, if u break rules then u have to deal w/ it.

[crayzayjay]

CivicSpoon, I'd like to echo Jon's comments by thanking you for doing this in a respectful manner.

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

I definently agree that any offensive comments about someones sexuality, race, or gender; is out of line. I'm not trying to defend his actions by any means. But on a weekly basis I see many people call other or things "g**" or "ghey".

I understand what you mean.

In my opinion, all of the moderators on the team are smart individuals, and are able to differentiate between the use of such words ('gay', 'retarded', etc...) as negative comments about an object / event, or as insults to other members. In the latter case, it is unacceptable behaviour and will lead to a punishment. The severity of this punishment depends on a multitude of factors - is the member capable of a positive contribution / does the member have a history of flaming, etc...

Quite frankly, a member that has been around as long as Ricochet had knows that posting abusive comments is not in keeping with our guidelines. Wanting to "educate the 16 year olds" or having a respected car is not an excuse. Nothing exempts you from following these rules, and there can be NO excuse to flame another member.

If you are unable to express your opinion in a reasoned, polite manner, and have to resort to name calling, AF is not the place for you.

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

I completely understand what you're saying. That's what I ment by not knowing the whole situation and not wanting to know, because it's none of my business. I absolutely agree that if a member steps out of line with a moderator, as you put it, outside the relm of public post, there there is no excuse for that. It's written in the guidelines: "If you've been caught or accused of a wrongdoing don't get irrational."

Please bear in mind that every action we take as moderators is logged by the administrators. Should there be any disagreement over a decision taken by a moderator - such as unfair dismissal in this instance - the decision is reviewed. In fact, even if there isn't disagreement, the majority of cases are reviewed, or at least discussed.

Point being? We are not, as some like to think, dictators. Some members have been reinstated. A testament to the moderator team's judgement - and the process we have in place - is that most of these members have gone on to act up again and been re-banned - with the full backing of the site admins - completely throwing away the chance they were given.

The average member probably thinks the moderators lounge around, banning the people we dislike. In fact, i've just received a PM that said so. You couldnt be further from the truth. The time we spend moving threads, deleting spam, re-structuring forums, and getting rid of unwanted content is all unpaid, mostly tedious, and above all designed to make AF a more agreeable place for you to surf. All that is left for you is to follow the AF User Guidelines that you agreed to when you signed up. As for the moderators, we are responsible that these rules are adhered to throughout AF and do our best to lead from the front.

Originally Posted by CivicSpoon

Thanks to both of you mods for responding to this thread, I appreciate it.

We are doing what is asked of us as moderators of this site. Our goal is to keep this huge collection of forums clean, useful, and interesting for our members to navigate. That means listening to constructive comments, so keep it coming.

[GScivic7]

All I have to say is that this is very reminiscent of what happened a couple years ago. After our purehonda forum went down we migrated over here and I will proudly say that AFs Honda board has gained it's status because of the former PH members. The forum started going to shit just like it has been for the last couple months and people started getting banned left and right. Now from what I know there are like a total of 3-4 original PH members left on this board. I guess history really does repeat itself and I don't want to be a part of it.

[GTStang]

I have only been a Mod for about 3 months so I think maybe I can give a good middle ground view between Mod and member.

I spend about 50% of my time on AF moving post were they should be, closing threads or trying to diffuse possible flaming threads, and deleting/moving spam. This stuff becomes old and annoying real quick let me tell you. I only do this for the Mustang forum which as a whole is one of the easier ones. You don't realize how much time and effort Mods spend wit this stuff until you are one.

The reason I bring that up is many people think we just spend our time cruising AF looking for people to ban which is just not the case. Also many think that we are just renegade Mods roaming the badlands of AF with our Ban guns blazing. The truth is almost 98% of the bannings except for easy clearcut one's like spamming and such are brought up and discussed in the Moderator Forum before any action is taken.

Also some Bannings are not just from what a memeber does on AF forums but also what they do in PM's/Emails/AIM etc.., Things that you as members never get privy to at all. So don't always assume you know they whole story.

Very often members who have a long standing or deemed especially helpful rightly or wrongly are given more leniency then others. Ricochet is one of these and he continued to think because of this he was above and beyong the rules of AF. If he had just taken his Temp ban and grew-up he would still be here on AF helping thoise in the Honda forums. Don't blame us blame Ricochet.


One thing also, anybody who speaks of the old days of PureHonda as good... In my opinion I'm glad is leaving AF. Since the Mods did an excllent job those years ago of cleaning house of the old enbattled PH members there has been relative peace between Domestic and Import lovers on AF. One of the few internet car forums that can claim that.

[Beastiek2]

Thanks CIVICSPOON -

I would also like to say thanks to everyone else you took the time to read and post in this thread; everything that was stated above is excellent and has much truth. Most of the topics that needed addressing have been discussed, so I will not ramble on about the obvious. First I'd like to say the Moderators on this site do an excellent job regardless of who thinks differently. They are constantly weeding out the nonsense and keeping this board maintained. We rarely have any quams with their justified actions. TILL its hits home. I guess the banning of RIC this weekend made us just gasp a bit because he was an intricate part tot he Honda/Acura forum. We all knew his ways and how he handled questions in particular threads, but that was just him. We'd expect a funny or crazy comment to come out of his mouth. In fact we'd question his ware bouts in a thread that we know he's rant in. That was just him and that was what he added to the forum that we liked. I do not know what he did ( in depth ) like the Moderators do as mentioned above but I do feel if he was banned then he must have deserved it. Moderators just don’t go around banning people for no reason so this must have been just. I don’t like the decision but that’s you as a Moderators job so I respect that.

However I do not respect what actions you take against us (other Honda/Acura members) in the light of his banning. I do not see the need to close a thread that asked other members "What happen to RIC this weekend” I feel we have a right to discuss and add our comments to an event such as this. Yes you will come back and say you suggested making a thread in this forum, and we did thank you. But not ever member in our forums gets to read this thread nor has the balls to post in it. Having a thread open in our forums is just a place for us to get some answers and vent our opinions. I just find so many threads that were closed with the name RIC involved within it.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...=327040&page=2

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=331434

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=331296

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=331252

Comments by crazayjay like this are not needed "b18ls, if you don't like it, you can leave." That was his response to b18ls's post "After over a year of good info and great videos in off topic, Ricochet has been banned. (Shakes his head in disappointment)"

Not one of our Moderators (Honda/Acura) came in to rant and rave nor did they close one thread. This was all done by the Moderators out side our forum circle. And I just feel its an unnecessary act of power. I am not picking on anyone nor am I starting trouble just voicing my thoughts and opinions.
Thank you for reading, thank you to everyone in our forums (Members and Moderators) and a special thanks to ECKO and MIATA keep up the good work..

[TheSilentChamber]

Originally Posted by GTStang

I have only been a Mod for about 3 months so I think maybe I can give a good middle ground view between Mod and member.

I spend about 50% of my time on AF moving post were they should be, closing threads or trying to diffuse possible flaming threads, and deleting/moving spam. This stuff becomes old and annoying real quick let me tell you. I only do this for the Mustang forum which as a whole is one of the easier ones. You don't realize how much time and effort Mods spend wit this stuff until you are one.

The reason I bring that up is many people think we just spend our time cruising AF looking for people to ban which is just not the case. Also many think that we are just renegade Mods roaming the badlands of AF with our Ban guns blazing. The truth is almost 98% of the bannings except for easy clearcut one's like spamming and such are brought up and discussed in the Moderator Forum before any action is taken.

Also some Bannings are not just from what a memeber does on AF forums but also what they do in PM's/Emails/AIM etc.., Things that you as members never get privy to at all. So don't always assume you know they whole story.

Very often members who have a long standing or deemed especially helpful rightly or wrongly are given more leniency then others. Ricochet is one of these and he continued to think because of this he was above and beyong the rules of AF. If he had just taken his Temp ban and grew-up he would still be here on AF helping thoise in the Honda forums. Don't blame us blame Ricochet.


One thing also, anybody who speaks of the old days of PureHonda as good... In my opinion I'm glad is leaving AF. Since the Mods did an excllent job those years ago of cleaning house of the old enbattled PH members there has been relative peace between Domestic and Import lovers on AF. One of the few internet car forums that can claim that.

I think you have missed the point of this thread almost intirely. It not just about the banning of that member. Everyone here acknowledges
that other events took place that lead to his banning. The one quote about PureHonda shows how bias you are in any situation, it appears that you are willing to judge a whole group of individuals on the actions of a few.

[crayzayjay]

Originally Posted by Beastiek2

Comments by crazayjay like this are not needed "b18ls, if you don't like it, you can leave." That was his response to b18ls's post "After over a year of good info and great videos in off topic, Ricochet has been banned. (Shakes his head in disappointment)"

Was it? Or was i responding to his post:

Originally Posted by b18ls

Mods...

or maybe

Originally Posted by b18ls

That is funny! I thought you were serious at first. Most Mods are... Better yet, I'll shut up.

So tell me, whose comments aren't needed?

The fact is, b18ls - or indeed anyone who doesnt like the situation at AF - is free to leave. If you're going to stay, play by the rules. It really is that simple.

[Beastiek2]

Originally Posted by crayzayjay

So tell me, whose comments aren't needed?

The fact is, b18ls - or indeed anyone who doesnt like the situation at AF - is free to leave. If you're going to stay, play by the rules. It really is that simple.

Are our opinons allowed?
Did B18ls say somthing offensive? Wrong? What rule did he brake?
I am sure we all expect more maturity from our Moderaors rather then our members.

[TheSilentChamber]

Yeah b18ls said nothing against anyone. he made it clear that he had an oppion, but chose to keep it to himself.