supercharged/turbocharged AT THE SAME TIME?

[DeleriousZ]

Yeah i was wondering if it was possible to do a super-turbo conversion on an integra.. i've heard of it done on some mazda's and toyota's before, but i'm not too sure about integra's... any thoughts?

[93hybridaccord]

Anything is possible, the only problem would be having the room.

[Polygon]

Originally Posted by 93hybridaccord

Anything is possible, the only problem would be having the room.

Along with time and money.

I hope you have a lot of each.

[AdvanTech]

I'm pretty sure that Sport Compact Car turbo'd and supercharged a Civic, but I don't have it so I can't really tell you anything about it. But I'm pretty sure it can be done. Just tell me how after you're finished

[DeleriousZ]

haha, well i'm thinking about burning up around 12 grand on the car over about a year... any suggestions? i was definitely thinking of doing an engine swap but i wasn't too sure which one yet (was looking at b18c jdm type r but that's really freakin expensive) and a turbo (love that bov sound)

[duplox]

What would be the point of running both a supercharger and a turbo? If you're trying to build more low end with the supercharger and use the turbo for top end, I wouldnt bother with the turbo at all. Just run a supercharger. If I had 12k at my disposal I'd buy an Aerodyne VATN turbo or just supercharge it with a very good supercharger. A VATN would be ideal, but they're expensive($3k). They'll spool up plenty fast and are much more efficient than any other turbo. I believe superchargers are better for small engines, they just don't have the exhaust volume to drive a turbine as well as a big engine. V8s can produce tons of torque and HP below 6000rpm and spool turbos by 2000rpm, where a 4cyl would have to rev much higher to produce big numbers, requiring a bigger turbo and therefore more lag.
I'm willing to hear any crazy ideas with turbos and superchargers, I love figuring things out like that. What setup exactly would you plan to do with a super and a turbo?

[DeleriousZ]

well first of all, i wasn't lookin at droppin 12 k into just a turbo/super, i'm talkin like new engine and suspension; exhaust here.. but what i was thinking, is that having some way for the supercharger to kick in right away for the good low end torque, then having the bigger turbo (t04 possibly, most likely ball bearing) be spooled by around 4k rpm. i've got a bit of technical knowledge, but not much experience working on cars as i am only 18 and don't really know anyone that likes to work on cars.

Anyway, i'm currently not aware of any way to vary the operation of the supercharger, maybe just have it running full time or something and i'm still not sure what type of engine would work best with boost for the most reasonable price.

thx fer your help

[PunkAlex]

heres an idea that i came up with a long time ago when i was thinking about how to make sucha setup:



even though i didnt draw a bypass valve for the turbo intake manifold part, theres one there. Basically after custom fabbing the spit intake, some form of bypass vavles, and some crazy wiring with rpm switches, youd come up with this. The priniple behind this setup is that you the supercharger would run through the low rpm's (Assuming that this engine is running a lot of boost on a big ass turbo with lotsa lag...with the kind of money it would take id think the engine would be built) at the highest boostpully you can get (like 10 or 11 psi) and help spool the big turbo for the crazy high rpm power. And then there are the problems wiht the parasitic drag of the super (some crazy complex centrifical clutch pulley could solve that problem). But yeah, my cargeek side showing!

[DeleriousZ]

looks pretty crazy man... can u get those rpm sensors or whatever? and is there even a clutch system like that out there? sounds pretty far-fetched from what i see, but hey.. you never know

btw.. j00r msp41nt sk33lz r 1337

[EG_Civic]

Theoretically speaking you probably could do it.You'd more than likely have to do some serious sleeving of the block. If you could get a stable setup, one that would be reliable, it would be awesome

Delerious:

I like that sig. It made my sister get all riled up, because she owns a 2nd gen cavalier.

[DeleriousZ]

hahaha right on man... yeah.. what exactly is sleeving the block anyway.. i never did figure out what that term meant

[PunkAlex]

sleving-honda engines have an open deck design, which means the cylinderwalls are unsupported at the top, which makes for a weak capability to boost and stuff. The stock cylinder wals tend to crack with stresses because they are aluminum as well. When you "sleeve" a honda, you are essentially putting new cylinder walls in the block, and since they are ductile iron, they can take crazy boost and eliminate the cylinder vibration due to an open deck design.

And yeah you can buy rpm activated switches out of summit. They are universal and (i believe-correct me if im wrong) just create a current of electricity through whatever line is connected to activate a device (nitrous, cheapo-vtec controller, whatever).

As for the clutch idea, well ive never really seen one or anything...youd probably just have to deal with the powerloss by the super.

[DeleriousZ]

wouldn't that decrease your displacement?

[duplox]

A couple of things... As I feared, you were plannin an overdriven supercharger for the low end - you will NEED some kind of clutch to separate the supercharger from the engine. Superchargers, like engines or turbos, have maximum safe revs! Spin a supercharger too fast and it will self destruct, sending tons of nice bite size chunks of metal into your engine, then eventually into your turbos. obviously, not good. I played around with this idea myself for a very long time for my 351c, but I have decided against it. Looking into electric clutches, which seem to be the only cost effective way of separating the engine and supercharger, I didn't think they'd do the job. Sure you could rig one up to disengage at a certain rpm(I'd just take apart a $5 shift light off ebay), but that isnt the problem - re-engaging is. If it disengages at 3000rpm, and is overdriven so that is near its maximum speed, engaging a clutch that will instantly try to get it to that speed would either result in a burnt clutch or destroyed supercharger and a fragged engine. Recently, I have come up with a much better idea, although a bit costly. This is a little MSPaint layout of how it'd work:

A little explaination:
The black pipe coming in from the bottom left is from your exhaust manifold. it splits in two(i hope you do a better job of splitting it than a 90* angle like in that image!) One goes right to a very small turbo(upper green and red thing), one that will spool very quickly(like 1500rpm)... That turbo will run out of juice around 4500 maybe. The other turbo in the bottom right is a very big turbo, one that will spool at maybe 4000. This one's inlet is fed by the other turbo's outlet. I forgot to put one thing in the image, which is a big ol one way valve on the pipe connecting the big turbo's inlet and little turbo's outlet, since the big turbo will probably want more air than it can suck through the little one. The two blue things are BIG wastegates. Now there are two ways I thought of doing this - hook the wastegate's signal to the intake manifold, and set them for whatever max boost you want or the max boost of the little turbo at 4000rpm. It'd work best if the little turbo isnt working as hard as it can, since it can probably produce the most boost before its 4000rpm high end. The wastegates will slowly open more and more as RPMs climb, giving the big turbo more and more exhaust, and if all the turbos are sized just right, eventually the wastegates will be entirely open at 4000rpm, giving the big turbo all the exhaust it needs. It is important to have some overlap in the RPM ranges of both turbos so the transition will be smoother. If the big turbo spools at 4000rpm will probably run out around 7500+, which when combined with the little turbo would produce boost from 1500-7500. Pretty damn big power range if you ask me. Anyone understand all that? The other way I thought of activating the wastegates was with a solenoid valve and an RPM switch. At 4000rpm, the rpm switch activates the solenoid valve which is on the line between the intake manifold and wastegates, immediately opening them fully and essentially quickly switching between the two turbos. The problem with this is it might cause some surging... A very short drop in power while the big turbo spools(if sized correctly it should be a fraction of a second) then a big surge in power since the big turbo is going to be working more efficiently than the little turbo nearing its limit. If you're planning on squeezing every last bit of boost out of the little turbo, I'd go with this setup, since it gives the little turbo all the exhaust it needs right up until it switches over to the big turbo, and if the turbos are sized correctly the whole lag/surge event could probably be minimalized or eliminated. If it were me, I'd rig up as many rpm switches as I had wastegates, setting them for progressively higher rpms, so it wouldnt starve the little turbo of exhaust during the switch, but still give the big turbo some exhaust to get it started. Sort of ease the transition.

[duplox]

About sleeving -
When a machine shop sleeves a block, they basically bore the block more than the thickness of the cylinder walls, essentially removing the entire bore. they then heat up the iron sleeves and pound them into the holes at the top and bottom where the old bore used to be, and when they cool they'll bind up good and tight with the block so they dont move. Sleeves are thicker than stock cylinder walls, and are stock bore, so usually when you sleeve a block you can get a bigger displacement if so desired. Sleeves aren't just slipped inside the bore, the old bore is cut out and significantly enlarged to allow a thick sleeve in the stock bore to be put in its place. Its not cheap, I think its around $100 per sleeve. Lucky for you guys you run 4cyls... twice as much for me! Hell, its only $500 more for me to just buy an aluminum Fontana racing block that I can bore .185" over! If I'm ever in the market for a big $ race engine, unless I'm bound by rules to run a factory block, I'd definately go for the aftermarket race block. But its more feasable for a 4cyl.