A thought on Free Will

[Xv7vX]

I was up late last night....insonmia again.

Anyway my mind started to wander and i thought....

If God gave us free will then we can make our own choices. But if God knows all then he knows what choice we are going to make. So why give us free will at all?

After thinking about this for some time I came up with a theory.

God knowing the choice we make is irrelvant.

Lets assume God gives you a choice of A or B. God also knows your going to pick A. Now if God just gave you A because he knew you would pick A, you never really had a choice? He just handed you A. But if He gave you a choice, EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW you were going to pick A, he still gave you a choice. Its like a catch 22. But God knowing is irrelvant.

What do you all think. Good theory, phony, ect.

I'm eager to hear all the different opinions

[MBTN]

I've said all that before. It just ends up in an argument. Honestly I don't even care anymore, I just live my life my way.

[2strokebloke]

That's the mistake.
If God has planned your life out, then why not do whatever you want? Because whatever you do, was obviously forseen by God, so it matters not one wit what you do.
You either believe in destiny, or you believe that you control your life. The problem with the Bible, is that it trys to make you believe both side, and fails to explain how this is logical. The authors might as well have written that black is white.
Of course, then you do have to realise that the Bible is just a book, and as such, being written by people like you or me, is not exempt from mistakes - it's not like God wrote it, or even proof read it.
I happen to believe that you make your own life, and that it is not destiny, God didn't plan out everybody's life, he has universes to run, no time to worry about how to provide you with a life that's set in stone, yet also variable - creating a needless paradox because of an author's missunderstanding, or poor explanation.

[DGB454]

Knowing what you would choose isn't the same as choosing for you. Free will still applies.

[spooleffect]

If there is a destiny then there is no reason to live. If you are not in control of your life then whats the point? Theres no purpose if you can't create one for yourself.

[thrasher]

I don't think destiny really exists. No choice is made until you actually make it, and sometimes you even surprise yourself. "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." -Morpheus- Even if the path is known, it will still always change, as one changes with experience and wisdom gained.
There are universal laws that govern the behavior of inanimate objects, but "life" does not have a goal, and as such there is no set path to follow, and rules that can always be broken.

[spooleffect]

Originally Posted by thrasher

I don't think destiny really exists. No choice is made until you actually make it, and sometimes you even surprise yourself. "There's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path." -Morpheus- Even if the path is known, it will still always change, as one changes with experience and wisdom gained.
There are universal laws that govern the behavior of inanimate objects, but "life" does not have a goal, and as such there is no set path to follow, and rules that can always be broken.

I agree.

Life is what you make of it. Destiny is for those who fear responsibility.

[mtdxx]

i used to think about that kind of stuff all the time. Now I do whatever I can not to. It just makes life too complicated. Now i just kick back and let the current take me where it pleases.

[Live702]

Not that I fear responsibility but I have a few comments of my own . . .

1. Back to the original topic: There are way too many (mis)conceptions about God to make any kind of deductions. We are to believe that we were given free will, but you hear all the time that He has a plan for you. How do these co-exist? Does He have a plan but sit there and hope you pick the right one?

2. I was sitting there the other day discussing fate and destiny and came to this conclusion. If you were break decision making down to base components you come to internal factors and external factors. External factors are either other peoples internal factors or random chance. We decided that there is no such thing as random chance because everything seemingly random is in fact governed by mathematical forces. Example: rolling the dice. There is a way to figure what the outcome will be, it's a complex math problem that takes into account weight of dice, hand contours, wind etc. . . We call it random because the equation is too complex to look past, we can't calculate it fast enough, so we don't. Next, this can all be applied to the workings of your brain. There is a mathematical equation that governs the neuronal firing sequences etc. Well, do we call that free will because we haven't solved that math problem yet? If these are the only factors at play then aren't the implications frightening? Is life just a roller coaster ride and we just have to sit there, put our hands up and yell? Someone prove me wrong. Please.

[Joseph1082]

Hey,
I find your point #2 very interesting, and in ways being a math person and believing that everything is based on equations I must agree... but to give you an argument to your cause, all famous philosophers have separarted the MIND from the BRAIN. What you have stated applies to the brain, but one thing we can never explain by science, or math, logic, whatever you will, is creativity, a quality of the human mind. Physical laws state conservation, nothing can be created nor destroyed. Your body exists and has grown because of your consupmtion of other matter i.e. food. But the mind creates certain things from nothing, religion, law, communication. There is no way to prove that these ideas are the simple result of a biological machine. Could a computer invent religion, even a NUERAL computer... there has to be more to the mind than machine.

[Live702]

Good idea, but the problem I am finding is that science is beginning to blur that line between mind and brain. If you go and subject people to a fMRI or a PET scan and ask them to think about particular things, areas of the brain begin operating at much higher levels. Motor, pleasure, and creativity centers have already been located. Aspects of psychology and neuroscience are already beginning to come together. Cognitive neuroscientists are already proposing ideas on perception, information processing, and emotion that are eerily representing networks that can be compared to neuronal networks.

As with religion, law and communication these are all things that have been passed down to us and we are to take at face value either through necessity (law and communication) or through no alternative means (religion). The ancient Greek peoples invented the gods to explain thunder and the seasons, love etc, and their ideas perpetuated (eg roman gods) until science proved them to be no longer necessary. They were all very logical ideas at the time so no one challenged them until they needed to be. I was kind of thinking this when I said other people's internal workings as external influences.

Could it be that there is some even greater mathematical idea that encompasses this human formula? Is there one to predict society or even civilizations?

* Don't you hate when you start an idea and then don't like where it takes you?

[DGB454]

Originally Posted by Live702

Not that I fear responsibility but I have a few comments of my own . . .

1. Back to the original topic: There are way too many (mis)conceptions about God to make any kind of deductions. We are to believe that we were given free will, but you hear all the time that He has a plan for you. How do these co-exist? Does He have a plan but sit there and hope you pick the right one?

Even though we do hear all the time that God has a plan for us I am pretty sure it's not based on Scripture. At least I don't recall ever running across any verse that states that God has a specific plan for each of us.
I think his plan for each of us is to know Him and have Him guide us through our decision making. If we do this then we will be more like Christ and begin to reach out to other people out of compassion and love for them.

[range]

We have freewill to work with what God has giving us. Which is limited to his own mind and power. I think that the biggest problem with all this is the fact that the English language has too many words that conflict. Personally, I wouldn't say that he's all-knowing before I would say that he's all-understanding. So in that since, your freewill is limited to what he has giving you. He understands any choice you make, though.

[Jay!]

Originally Posted by Live702

Could it be that there is some even greater mathematical idea that encompasses this human formula? Is there one to predict society or even civilizations?

I think this idea is similar to the concepts of "Psycho-history" that Issac Asimov developed in his Foundation works. Might be worth a look...

[Joseph1082]

Perhaps, just like in physics where they assume there is a unified theory to combain everything together, perhaps there is a unified theory to explain US. Some really advice lifeforms could be watching us right now, predicting our everymove according to their "unified human theory" and its laws and equations. If this is the case, then like you said, every move we make is predetermined and free-will is just an illusion of our primitive understandings. God this is scary.