Found the answer to the years old question. Trans questions

[happydog500]

OK, many of the regulars will remember the two posts I posted year(s) a go about my car. (drive around fine, but when you floor it, the RPM's go up more, but you don't go as fast). I had everything from "obviously a fuel filter" to MAP or MAF Sensor. With no CEL, don't think it would be the trans, since I'd get a light.

Well, after more then a year, I got a code. Can't remember the exact one (not home) it's the trans slipping.

Not sure why I could go over the mountain pass with it reving highter and not get a code, but just driving on a flat serfece, with the throttle barley on, I'd get a code.

So, after soaking almost $2,000 for a new motor, I now need a Transmission.

I first thought of getting a good, low mile used transmission. Mine is the "F17" "Without WA2 Timing Option."

Of course, out of 100 transmissions I look at, only about 15 are W/O timing option Wa2.
Out of the 15 average, there almost double the price of the ones with the option. Lots of low mile transmissions, but seems like all the ones with out the option, are lots more miles. I can find lots under or around 100,000 miles, cheap, but the few that are non wa2, they have around 150,000 to over 200,000 miles.

Was going to get a friend to help me put it in, but I see he is very busy. With the expense I spent on the motor last year, it's now climbing higher and higher as I look into my need.

No buying a trans for a couple or few hundered, trading work with a friend to put it in.
Without the wa2, I'm looking at around $500, plus shipping, plus having to pay big bucks to put it in.

Thank you for everyone who helped me over the years trying to figure out what was wrong. Wish I could of got the code sooner.

Would of been a lot nicer to find this out when my motor was out. Kind of thinking maybe my trans slipped is what made my motor go out. This started as soon as I drove the car after replacing the motor.

Thank you very much,
Chris.

If I decide to run it off the cliff while crying, I'll post it here.

[Jrs3800]

Chris... There are ways around everything...

An example would be my 95 Bonneville has the 97 PCM and is flashed to think its a 97 GP GT... WA2 was not used on that Bin File...

It would be soo easy to flash your Buick with a tune much like the GP tune and you'd pretty much be able to use any 4T60E...

Just don't know what to tell you...

[happydog500]

Originally Posted by Jrs3800

Chris... There are ways around everything...

An example would be my 95 Bonneville has the 97 PCM and is flashed to think its a 97 GP GT... WA2 was not used on that Bin File...

It would be soo easy to flash your Buick with a tune much like the GP tune and you'd pretty much be able to use any 4T60E...

Just don't know what to tell you...

Is a GP tune a thing you use to redo the computer infomation? Not sure what to do if I don't have one or know anyone with one. I could post an add for someone.

I had it explained to me that the Wa2 Timing is the torque converter lock up. Some lock up at once, and others take more time to get to 100%.
Can you do an easy, simple explanation of what would the difference be in my year?

Why does GM put out two different lock ups in the same year? Mine is W/O Wa2. Does that mean mine locks up quick, or slower?

If I did the GP tune, could I leave everything else the same and just switch the Wa2 timing, or is it a whole new thing?
This would make it a lot easier to find a transmission, but it adds another whole thing I have to do besides the transmission.

Thanks for the information.

Two different sending units in the same year, two different lock ups in the transmission in the same year, no wonder why GM was in trouble.

Chris.

[happydog500]

The Park Ave I got my motor from, my friend still has the transmission in the corner of the shop.

My 1997 Lesabre is 3 months older then the 1996 PA, so they where made around the same time.

My car has (F17) W/O Wa2 timing. I checked the VIN of the PA and it has F17 ratio, but there is no wa2 option or not with that transmission.

The two transmissions that are listed for the PA are, "6ACW" or a "6ASW." I'm pretty sure the two are WITH Supercharger or Without.

I have a 4T60E Transmission that has with or without wa2, made in 3/96 (in my car now). I have a 4T60E, made 3 months later that doesn't have any options for timing Wa2 or not, but has Non or Supercharged.

Why does the 96 - 97 4T60E have an option Wa2 or not, or not an option?

Help!! Can anyone explain what's going on? What's the difference?

Thank you,
Chris.

[HotZ28]

Chris, I thought we went through this back in '09 Click Here

[happydog500]

Originally Posted by HotZ28

Chris, I thought we went through this back in '09 Click Here

No, that question was for a 98, this is for a 96. Some answers I can use, but I had a couple specific with the 96 transmission I couldn't find.

The specific ones for this is.

My trans is a F17 W/o timing option wa2. The trans that work is a 96-97 park ave, F17 W/o Timing option wa2. So a PA trans will work (plug and play if it has the same). With the Lesabre, they have with or without wa2. On the Park Ave, nowhere does it give a chose of an option wa2.

Wrecking yards all over the net have trans that will fit 96-97 Lesabre and park ave, they list w/o wa2, f17.

Went to two GM dealers, both say nothing about wa2 option on a 96 park ave.

One dealer said they have no options at all on a 96 PA Trans. Every single one has the same, no difference. One dealer has two listed.

I see on a site, they have FWD Supercharged, FWD without Supercharged F17, FWD without Supercharged Fw2.

If their is a 96 PA with a trans that is "Without Wa2" how come GM doesn't list that for PA? If wa2 is not listed, does that mean it's "without wa2?" For Lesabre, it doesn't list wa2 and nothing, but with and "without".

Some 96 will work, some won't. I wanted to know specific, why this one 96 will work or not, and what are the issues with this specific transmission.

I know with my Lesabre transmission, the choices are, F17 or the other one (gear ratios), Without or with timing option wa2 (torque converter lock up strategy). Thanks to the forums, I know about the options on my 97. I wanted to understand the issues of the 96 PA, since they seem to be different, and contradictory to where even the dealers don't know.

Chris.

[HotZ28]

Chris, do you still have a 1997 LeSabre, but it has an 1996 trans in it? If so, the PCM is different, and can not be programmed back to the 1996 PA trans functions. If you use a 1997 PCM, upgrades can be made via a flash program, but must include the latest revisions to work properly. Sorry, but it seems like you have a bastard combination.

[happydog500]

No, I have the 96 PA motor in my 97 Lesabre. Now my transmission is going out. I still have access to the 96 PA transmission. Since some of the 96-97 PA transmissions will work, I wanted to know if this was one of them.

Here is a typical fits these makes and models;

BONNEVILLE 96 A.T., FWD; w/o supercharger; 2.84 ratio opt F17
EIGHTY EIGHT 96 A.T., FWD; w/o supercharger; 2.84 axle ratio (F17)
LESABRE 96 A.T., FWD; 2.84 axle ratio (F17)
LESABRE 97 A.T., FWD; 2.84 axle ratio (F17), w/o LeSabre timing opt WA2
NINETY EIGHT 96 A.T., FWD; 2.84 axle ratio (F17)
PARK AVENUE 96 A.T., FWD; w/o supercharger; 2.84 axle ratio (F17)

These transmissions will fit my 97 Lesabre, plus notice it says PA 96. I see this list at many, many different sites, so there is a 96 Park Avenue transmission that will work. I was hoping this was one.
Plus, I like to understand things. With my 97 lesabre, I can understand, and explain the issues with the options. I really like having the understanding. Since both dealers in my area have no idea what the options are on any of them, I was hoping to come to the forums and get the information on the 96 Park Aves as I have on the 97.

So far, not on this forum, or even the Buick dealer can explain the issues or differences on a 96 Park Ave trans (The Buick Dealer can't even tell me what one is in the car with the exact VIN #. He showed me the screen and it showed two different transmissions that 'could' be in this ONE car, "no way to know which one" he said). This makes it even more interesting and more desirable to understand, since nobody has an idea.

*****************
On the subject line of this thread, I put "found the answer to...." After thinking about it, I may of not found the answer.
I think the 96 3.8 motor is different in the Park Ave then it is in the Lesabre. As mentioned before, when I got the new motor, when I drive from 0 to about half throttle, it runs fine. accelerates good. When I floor it, it revs up but lacks power. I describe it like an old 79 Cougar I had with the timing retarded. It sounded like a trans slipping if I described it, but it didn't feel like that.

I got no CEL or code on it. After a year, I get a code cruising down a flat highway with barley any peddle. Seems like this is two different things. I get a feeling even tho they are both 3.8 GM motors, made within 3 months of each other, they could be different.

I've given up on the transmission, but would still like to understand the 1996 park Avenue transmissions.

I'm starting to think even if I could find a good used transmission for my Lesabre, it's not fixable for me, since I put the wrong motor in.

Chris.

[Jrs3800]

Chris... I have no idea how to explain all of this to you...

The 96-97 4T60E is the same Trans... Other than the Differential( 2.84, 3.06 or 3.29 ) these transmissions are generally the same...

If you are without WA2 then you for sure will have a Carbon Converter Clutch, by all rights you can use you 97 torque converter on the 96 trans...

I am currently running a 97 Olds 88 4T60E( torque converter and all ) on this van with a Pontiac grand Prix GT Bin File...On this trans I swapped in the 3.06 gears and made a large mistake with the converter... My mistake is that the stall speed is too low.. I will be installing a correct 1895 stall carbon clutch converter shortly...

My Buddies 93 Buick LeSabre runs a 1997 Bonneville Trans ( 3.06 ) complete with the 1997 torque converter..

I really just don't know what to tell you... They are going to tell you what their cross reference tells them as to what trans will work for you.. Pretty much any 4T60E can be made to work for you, but its not all plug and play..


and wrong engine?? Is it not a Series II 3800 L36?

[happydog500]

You did a good job explaining so far. I don't need, "all of it...." just one main thing;
There are two different things that can be different on the 97. 1. Gear Ratio - ether F17, or the other one. 2. With or without Wa2. What I can tell, these two are the only difference in the 97 Lesabre Transmissions.

What are the differences in 96 PA? If there is two different things in 97, how many are there in 96 PA?

For example. The Buick Dealer has listed for the ONE car, "6ACW" or a "6ASW." If (97) has wa2 meaning a timing option, what would (96) "6ACW" mean? If I remember from looking at the screen at the dealer, another one was "M- something."

I Bottom line; If there is two choices in 97, how many in a 96PA? What are they?

Thanks for all the help.

Chris.

P.S. Will you have to take the transmission out again to do the carbon clutch converter job?

[Jrs3800]

6ACW 3800 C and H body 3.06 Ratio( 7ACW is for 97 )

6BXW 3800 H Body 3.06 Ratio ( 7BXW is for 97 )

6ACW 3800 C and H body 2.84 Ratio ( 7ACW is for 97 and listed a 2.86, this will work 100% in place of a 2.84 )

F17 is a 2.84 ratio with a 1420 stall converter

FW2 is a 3.06 ratio with a 1897 stall converter

I will guess you are F17?

And yes I will have to pull the trans to do the converter... Thinking about demodding the van and going back to more or less stock

[happydog500]

Originally Posted by Jrs3800

6ACW 3800 C and H body 3.06 Ratio( 7ACW is for 97 )

6BXW 3800 H Body 3.06 Ratio ( 7BXW is for 97 )

6ACW 3800 C and H body 2.84 Ratio ( 7ACW is for 97 and listed a 2.86, this will work 100% in place of a 2.84 )

F17 is a 2.84 ratio with a 1420 stall converter

FW2 is a 3.06 ratio with a 1897 stall converter

I will guess you are F17?

And yes I will have to pull the trans to do the converter... Thinking about demodding the van and going back to more or less stock

Sorry about you having to take the transmission out again.

Thank you for the information.
Sorry about being not so smart, I seem more confused now then I did before. I will think about all this and maybe it will sink in in a day or two (or few).
The confusing part is you did not list any timing options for a 96 PA. So a 96 PA does not have any timing options to chose from? (this would mean if I have without timing option, and F17, any 96 PA transmission with F17, will fit in a Lesabre "w/o Timing option Wa2", but this is not true).

I know this is me, so don't get offended if I haven't got it yet. If I have two things to worry about, timing option and F17, and find a (PA) F17, since they don't have timing options that year, it will fit? This would mean if the PA trans is F17, it will plug and play just like a 97 lesabre?

Any idea why Buick Dealer lists two transmissions "could" be in the one VIN? "no way to know which one." I thought they would know if I gave them the specific VIN.

I'll try and end all the transmission questions in this thread, but after or if it sinks in, I may have one or two more.

Thanks jrs3800 for all the help. Your knowledge is nice to have on the forums. You help a lot of people. Sorry I can't communicate very well, it's been a problem all my life. Wish I could explain it better.

P.S. What about this one. If I have my 97 Lesabre F17 W/O timing option transmission on the floor, with the 96 Park Ave F17 trans sitting right next to it, what is or could be the differences in them? They could be the exact same, or what specific would be different?

Hopefully, if I can't make since, maybe someone else can read and kind of translate what I'm trying to find out.

Chris.

[Jrs3800]

the transmissions are the same for 96-97.. You should have no issue there..

The WA2 has more to do with the Torque Converter Clutch Material..

Without WA2 is a Graphite Woven Clutch Converter

WA2 was a revised TCC lock strategy, the TCC Clutch may never completely lock and is designed to slip,

Being that you are without WA2, you have a Carbon Clutch Converter... If you want to be able to use the trans including the Torque converter then look for a 96-97 trans without WA2...

Most likely your Torque Converter will be an FYHB( carbon Clutch ) 1420 stall..

For all intent purposes you could just as easily use a 95 Trans too..

[happydog500]

Thank you very much, jr3800.

This is why I'm having so much problems with this issue. The problem is, is if we go with this idea that any 96 or 97 will work, that can't be right.

It makes sense that a 96 PA trans will work in a 97, specially if mine is the very early 97 (3/96).

The problem is, when I search for transmissions, some are listed as will work (in a 97 Lesabre and a 96 PA) and some are listed as will not work.

In my situation (SSI), putting in a transmission will be a once in a lifetime thing. If it somehow doesn't work afterworlds, I'm stuck. I wanted to know all the issues and what I have before I try and figure a way to get it done.

Didn't 96 have torque converter options also? I have never seen any listed for any 96 PA's.

You have me spooked with this stall thing. Maybe everything is the same, but mine is a different stall point. I get it in and it will work but it quits on me.

What about this final drive thing. What if it's the same, but a different final drive thing?

If I have a toqurg converter in my 170,000 Lesabre, and a Converter with 111,000 in the PA Trans, I think I would go with the lower mile one. Also, at one point, I was told if my transmission was slipping, it's not the 'clutch' but the torque converter. I am afrade I may put in the lower mile transmission, only to use my old torque converter and be worn out.

If I can get a friend to help me, I know they would not do it all over again.

**Here is the confusing part now.

You did a very good job explaining this to me so If one 96 PA will work, and some are listed as not working in my car, why would it work or not work if there is not any timing options for the 96 PA?

Library computer shutting down, thank you very much,
Chris.

[Jrs3800]

Wow...lol

Best thing I can tell you to do is get a 96 or 97 trans w/o WA2... This way the trans will be 100% pug and play, without having to change the torque converter or the like.. This would make this a very simple swap..

From what I have understood( and I have tinkered with a lot of these over the years ) The WA2 option used a Graphite Woven Converter, this converter was designed to slip a little all of the time, in most cases it would never fully lock..

In your case w/o WA2 you should have a Carbon Clutch Converter, this was designed to lock fully, but did it in a manner that was smooth and soft.. And would partially unlock if you applied throttle and then go back to 100% apply..

I almost burned up a torque converter with a WA2 Bin file, we had to find a non WA2 Bin File that ended up being a Pontiac Grand Prix file that we used to correct it and get a quick solid TCC Lock..

If you were here, we could get what ever trans we wanted and I could make it work just as if it came from the factory in that car... I mean look at my van, for a while we ran a 95 Trans on a 97 Tune... Too bad that Converter died

Now we are running it on a 97 Olds 88 LS Trans( non WA2 )... I changed my gear ratio from 2.84 to 3.06 buy changing the Differential..

One of the reasons I could make it work is that I have and use a Tuner to alter the bin file for what I am using..

But for all intent purposes, you will want the 96-97 w/o WA2... This will save you time and grief..

Just curious tho, what kind of prices are you seeing in your area?