My 1000th post----- The whereabouts of GTR 04R?

[Le Man]

OK Guys, my 1000th post.

As I have been on the forum for sometime now , but not as long as some, that I could mention .

Its now time to do a unique thread about the whereabouts of GTR 04R.

As we all know Lyndsey Owen-Jones rolled and comprehensively damaged his GTR at Jarama (BPR 95) in free practice on the thursday. The crash was severe enough to damage of all parts, his seat, thus giving Lyndsey some heavy brusing in his rib area. The remains of his GTR were quickly returned to Woking for McLaren to assess the extent of the damage. Due to the time scale required to repair 04R, Lyndsey took the option of purchasing 08R. which was a rolling chassis at that time. This chassis (08R) was the one destined for the Ueno Clinic entry at LeMans, we all know what happened there. 08R was finished with Lyndsey,s engine and gearbox from the remains of 04R, so Lyndsey could continue racing as soon as possible.

04R was never seen again by most people close to the GTR program, not unless anybody knows different!! It was logged that 04R was used in one round of the JGTC, But I,m not convinced , but if somebody can supply some proof, please do.

As I have spoken too alot of people close to this GTR at the time, nobody has any photographic evidence of the wrecked car. I do not wish this to sound like I,m a thrill seeker just wishing to see crashed cars, but I think its a relevant piece of GTR history thats missing. So if anybody has some pics, or any other info, please post .

I have some more to add, but to make this a interesting thread I wish for the thoughts and contributions of all you guys here on this forum.

[Peloton25]

My thought remains that I haven't seen it.

But, in light of recent news about another car that has come my way, perhaps this is #04R, and if so then this is the proof you are looking for that it was last used in Japan?



Of course you will say that the wiper is going the right way for a '96 GTR and the tail lamps are also '96 pieces, but maybe #04R was so heavily damaged than when it was rebuilt they did so using '96 GTR components?

Just some idle speculation here... but if true, it would clear up a major discrepancy I have been battling around in my head these past couple weeks.

>8^)
ER

[Le Man]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

My thought remains that I haven't seen it.

But, in light of recent news about another car that has come my way, perhaps this is #04R, and if so then this is the proof you are looking for that it was last used in Japan?



Of course you will say that the wiper is going the right way for a '96 GTR and the tail lamps are also '96 pieces, but maybe #04R was so heavily damaged than when it was rebuilt they did so using '96 GTR components?

Just some idle speculation here... but if true, it would clear up a major discrepancy I have been battling around in my head these past couple weeks.

>8^)
ER

Very interesting thoughts Erik,


May I ask, whats this "other car" ?

[Peloton25]

It's just a piece of information that has revived the 14R -vs- 15R debate of the 'M66 MCL' orange GTR that was spotted in Monaco back in 2003. Can't expand on it in any great detail here yet or I would have already done so.

If the GTR that was photographed for the "McLaren - The Cars" book was something other than #14R, then that would 'solve' it for me.

>8^)
ER

[DocGTR]

Very interesting thread, have to admit! There's lots of pieces to this puzzle and only so little pieces of it are in the public domain.

I've been trying to find good quality images of the #61 of the last JGTC'96 round (Mine) but so far not so succesfully. Those would at least give some hint which chassis it could be. The video clips on YouTube of the season round up part 2 are such low quality that the details to see on the #61 car aren't much help on more specific details. But if you really look from 4:21 onwards, it seems that the #61 car has been upgraded to the GTR'96 specs (especially the front air intakes) and as we know 08R (which many has guessed was the car replacing 14R) was never upgraded to GTR'96 specs as can be seen from the recent pictures from Bahrain (or why would have they then converted it back to GTR'95 specs?).

Also one piece to that is that some while ago in some interview of a McLaren spokesperson of the customer care or similar (can't really now remember so specifically) said that to his records none of the GTRs is written off, all of them repaired (if needed). If true, which I also believe (24R was repaired after almost full destruction in Suzuka'97!), 04R is repaired and still somewhere in existense, but hidden away. The time frames would allow it well to be the Mine #61 upgraded to GTR'96 specs and with a new engine/gearbox/etc. And maybe someone then after the last race bought/transferred it to his/her/their collection as the real JGTC'96 championship winner in the famous Lark livery. Just one possibility.

So which chassis are the other possibles to have replaced the 14R in such short time? I think the real possibilities are quite limited. We could try to start this puzzle by outruling the impossibilities first, collecting as much evidence as there is about the Mine #61 racer, the time frames of different chassis around that time (their whereabouts), and so on.

And a good start would be if LOJ himself could give some info did he sell the damaged 04R back to McLaren as he bought the 08R, which would have been a rational choice at that time.

[Peloton25]

One thing about the my possible theory of the car in the book - I am fairly certain that while it does give credit to McLaren for supplying the car, it does not specifically identify the car in the photos by its chassis number. Greg, or someone else who has a copy of it, will you please confirm this?

However, the poster that was also made available with photos of all the cars appears to say "1996 RACECAR" underneath the image of the LARK GTR and it falls inbetween the 1996 Formula One car and the 1997 version. Now, perhaps one shouldn't read too far into that since it is seen there wearing a livery used during 1996, McLaren is known for not always publishing things with 100% accuracy, and they'd already pictured the LeMans winner on the poster as the "1995 RACECAR". Like Doc, I feel that the pieces of evidence required to overcome this circle of speculation just aren't out there anywhere.

Unless you have them Le Man?

>8^)
ER

[DocGTR]

If I remember correctly, in that book's "Thanks" section McLaren Cars or some other of the sister companies was thanked for providing the 14R. I think it was discussed here as well. Maybe Greg can confirm that.

EDIT: here it was, as Greg put it: "...and the thanks for '14R goes to......Mclaren group."

[Peloton25]

Greg does confirm that credit was given for supplying the car the thread we had discussing the book, but I want to know if the book actually calls out #14R specifically or if that is just how he worded his comment.

I didn't mean to totally derail the discussion in this direction, but the timing was pretty ironic for Le Man to start this thread as I had just started to think the other day - "Well what if it's not #14R in the book?".

One thing the text does claim:

At Sugo the Lark team badly damaged its own chassis, but was able to borrow another from GTC Competition for the final round.

So, short tailed GTRs attributed to GTC would be #02R, #04R, #08R, #12R and #15R.

The last race of the '96 JGTC season was held at Mine Circuit on October 27th, 1996. I'd say it is probably very safe to rule out #12R and #15R from fulfilling that task as they were both needed for the Zhuhai round of the BPR GT series the following weekend in China. They were probably getting their Marlboro liveries put on around the time of the Mine race. If that quote above is taken at face value, and you agree that #12R and #15R should be ruled out, that leaves just the 1995 GTRs as possiblities for use in Japan.

As Doc pointed out - checking the video from this final race shows that the nose panel and also the wiper position of the #61 LARK car matched the 1996-spec stuff. So, for me that's confirmation right there that at least one 1995 GTR had these features, and lends some credibility to my strange theory I think.

Looking at the few images of #02R during its BRDC GT career, it still looks all the part for a 1995 GTR. The #08R WEST Adrenaline taxi also shows no signs of any '96-spec GTR changes.

Hmmmm... are we having fun yet?

>8^)
ER

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

So, short tailed GTRs attributed to GTC would be #02R, #04R, #08R, #12R and #15R.

The last race of the '96 JGTC season was held October 27th, 1996. I'd say it is probably very safe to rule out #12R and #15R from fulfilling that task as they were both needed for the Zhuhai round of the BPR GT series the following weekend in China. They were probably getting their Marlboro liveries put on around the time of the Mine race. If that quote above believed, and you agree that #12R and #15R should be ruled out, that leaves just the 1995 GTRs as possiblities for use in Japan.

As Doc pointed out - checking the video from this final race shows that the nose panel and also the wiper position of the #61 LARK car matched the 1996-spec stuff. So, for me that's confirmation right there that at least one 1995 GTR had these features, and lends some credibility to my strange theory I think.

>8^)
ER

02R was raced by Lanzante in the British GT Championship in 1996 so it was not anymore GTC's car by the time Mine race happened, so it can be also ruled out. To me that leaves 04R and 08R to be considered. Still as I already mentioned, I would really doubt that if they upgraded 08R to '96 spec, why would they have then turn it back to '95 spec later? If you look at the images of 08R in its "West Adrenaline" livery e.g. from Spa 2000 it is in the '95 specs, only having the bigger '96 rear wing that it still today has. So that newer version of that JGTC'96 video clip (much crisper) convinced me that I highly doubt it was 08R after all.

BTW does anyone have better info when was the BMW Motorsport promotional images of 08R taken? I have always thought they've been taken between the BPR'95 and '96 seasons and that's why it was also in that white Gulf-livery in the BPR'96 opener at Paul Ricard. Later as it continued to be the GTC spare car it was re-liveried to Gulf'96 kind of livery but stayed in GTR'95 specs.

[Peloton25]

Originally Posted by DocGTR

02R was raced by Lanzante in the British GT Championship in 1996 so it was not anymore GTC's car by the time Mine race happened, so it can be also ruled out.

Thanks! I certainly know that, but for some reason in my head I was thinking that it was the 1998 season instead (that's the year #24R came to play - duh) which didn't allow me to disqualify #02R earlier, at least on those grounds.

I keep waiting for Martin to come in and lay the Trump card on all of this.

= = = = = =

BTW does anyone have better info when was the BMW Motorsport promotional images of 08R taken? I have always thought they've been taken between the BPR'95 and '96 seasons and that's why it was also in that white Gulf-livery in the BPR'96 opener at Paul Ricard.

Had to be around the time you suspect as I believe those slides went out in some sort of Press Kit which would have been released prior to the races they competed in.

>8^)
ER

[DocGTR]

Originally Posted by Peloton25

I keep waiting for Martin to come in and lay the Trump card on all of this.

Hmmm... let's wait Greg to first to confirm or deny that what's there in the book, is there really said 14R or was it just his comment...

If it's not said there, it is then possible that the car on those pictures in that book is 04R, but where's 14R then? Would that then again open the questions over that "M66 MCL"?

Well, maybe Martin has a real eastern egg waiting for us!

[Peloton25]

I am pretty sure we are going to hear that the book offers no solid confirmation on the chassis number. I am not sure we can, but I think that if we could somehow determine that it was #04R photographed for the book, that would make confirming the 'M66 MCL' GTR being a repaired chassis #14R a sure thing. At least until we can get eyes on the chassis plate.

Certainly it appears to me from all the evidence presented here so far that it must have been #04R that stood in for #14R in that last race, making that strange entry on the Chassis History poster surprisingly correct! In fact this is the first time in a long time I've had this much confidence in that little notation.

>8^)
ER

[hurstg01]

Le Man - I was waiting for something special for your 1000th post as per my PM, and wasn't disappointed

There is no mention of the chassis number in the book - it states

Originally Posted by Mclaren - The Cars 1964-2008

As the Japanese GT500 Sportscar Championship progressed, the Team LARK cars were subjected to an ever-increasing weight penalty. By the end of the year the David Brabham/John Nielsen car (right) was forced to carry 40kg of ballast. Even so the team won four races that year and easily took the series

and the car it alludes to is the same as the pictures Erik hosted in post 2.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility, and has been done with other cars in other series, that a heavily damaged chassis was substituted with another on the 'production line' to continue with the series and the heavily damaged car was repaired and used as a latter car.

As for which car it is but I agree, it is an interesting story. I look forward to participating in this on-going thread

[hurstg01]

It does state in the book, however, that

Originally Posted by Mclaren - The Cars 1964-2008

In 1995 the factory had built just 9 GTRs, a figure it adhered to for the following season with two of the older cars (03R and 06R) being updated as the concept continued to develop to stay abreast of various new GT regulations.

No mention then that #04R was developed into a 1996 GTR

[hurstg01]

Originally Posted by DocGTR

...one piece to that is that some while ago in some interview of a McLaren spokesperson of the customer care or similar (can't really now remember so specifically) said that to his records none of the GTRs is written off, all of them repaired (if needed).

That's what DH said to me when I saw #13R being unloaded for its 'Winter spruce up' a few years ago and I asked the same question - whether all the GTR's are still with us and he said no GTR has been lost