The 'Inteligant Design' website

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

It's interesting that Gohan mentions faith, as I was considering that aspect recently.
According to Websters. faith can mean "a firm belief in something with which there is no proof. "

Having faith means that proof is not required at all, and one can therefore, ignore any and all evidence to the contrary. So, no amount of scientific proof can dispel true religious faith. How can one debate someone with such faith?

Hence we come to Gerald Scroeder's site (thank you for the link). His beliefs are groundless, from a scientific point of view, and are easily defeated, given current knolwdge of atomic physics vs. the story of Genesis. (If you ask me how, I would be happy to explain).

I find it interesting that religious people will add to biblical stories and fables to make them fit current evidence, or produce their own 'evidence' to make the stories fit current evidence. I have found this a VERY common theme amongst religious people; to come up with little rules/interpretations/explanations that are simply not in the Bible to explain the inconsistencies of the Bible and the world around them.

The Book of Genesis was written for humans in human terms. To claim it is now inaccurate because it was written in Big-bang stretched time is nonsense. The original writers and readers of Genesis were simple middle-Eastern folk and knew nothing of such concepts. Wouldn't god make an appropriate conversion?

But, that is the miracle of such fables.... they can be changed, altered, twisted to fit etc because they are written for the faithful. Their faith means that a reasonable, accurate explanation is not required, they will believe anyways.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, I really do not intend it to be so

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists?

The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter.

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?

intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

[Gohan Ryu]

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message. Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter. intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

It IS an indication of intelligence!

[CL8]

Originally Posted by Gohan Ryu

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message.

Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence.

Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc.

Hmm, all these INTELLIGENT guys like Newton and Einstein came up with principles that explain the universe, do you think maybe THEY created it?

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN and the Large Hadron Observatory, among others)

After they find out those "unknowns", do you think they will be able to create another universe on their own?

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god.

The buck must stop somewhere, you say the big bang, I say God.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?

You are right there are many gods out there, made by man, but only one TRUE God created by no one. Yes the false Gods do conflict with the true God, thats why the book of Revelation tells how God (the True) will END the conflict!

And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.
(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian)

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him?

That is the mystery of Christianity, but John tells us in 1st John that God is love.

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be?

The powers that be are of God. He gives power to whom he will. He has given power to Satan for a time.

If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people?

He gave mankind a choice whether to obey him or not, the choice resulted in sin and imperfection.

Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'?

no

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.

That comment shows the imperfection of scientists, not that there is no creator God.

[MagicRat]

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.

Originally Posted by CL8

And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.

As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date.

Originally Posted by CL8

(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian) .

Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.

But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.





As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.

Allah is only 1 person, Jehovah is 3 persons and one God. How could they be the same?

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date.

Many "Christians" believe and quote false doctrine too!

Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.

Wrong, according to this youtube audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5_djbuagc

But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM

I see no place on that site that says the Christian God ordered those wars.

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.

Muslims also don't have an account with MANY witnesses of Allah becoming incarnate, and rising from the dead.
They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!

A lot of people claim to see Bigfoot, too. Doesn't make it true...

I think that you are missing what he is asking for. He wants facts and examples to support your stance. Your replies are merely rhetoric.

[MagicRat]

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.

It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales.

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong.

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law.

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.

MR, your are the most polite Atheist I have come across!

It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales.

Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles ( not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong.

That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law.

The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?

Remember, the New Testament is actually MANY sources and many authors compiled together.
This site also give secular evidence for Jesus:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles (not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Do you think it is by accident that most of the world's richest nations aren't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs?

Originally Posted by CL8

That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

The difference being in the case of a known crime, the event is known to have happened. Religion is based on an event that isn't proven to have happened.

Originally Posted by CL8

The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

not comparable - straw man.
if you insisit it is comparable then I would agree that in your scenario, perhaps we should get rid of religious people just like we should get rid of people who would run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings.

finally, that site insists that the Bible is a valid source for the proof of the existance of Jesus, which I should add, isn't the only thing being discussed here - existance of Jesus does not prove existance of a god.

[MagicRat]

First of all, as an athiest, I have no objection to Jesus. Chances are, he did exist.
I also believe that he was probably a rabbi with unconventional ideas that irritated the religious establishment of the day. But, son of god? No, because god does not exist.

As for the Judeo-Christian nations.... there are many good socio-political reasons for the economic and political success of the West.

They have nothing to do with any alleged will of god, but are rooted in thousands of years of historic, social, military and political forces that originally pre-date the Judeo-Christian belief system.

For example, our much of our social and political philosophy and organization structure were based on the ancient Greek ideals (further popularized by ancient Rome) from a time when they were polytheistic pagans.

This is a good book of the subject. : http://www.tvfactual.co.uk/triumph_of_the_west.htm

As monkey suggests, if a christian god were really running things around here, how do you explain that most of the West is now dependent on fundamentalist Islamic oil and in atheist-communist-sometimes Buddhist Chinese investment capital and manufacturing?

[Gohan Ryu]

Originally Posted by CL8

Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence.

Nature is proof to you - not to "all people". You're giving us your interpretation the firmament and of gods proof and it's about as accurate (or inaccurate) as Shroeder's or anyone else's interpretation. God is something different to different people - including non-believers.