The 'Inteligant Design' website

[CL8]

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website"

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

Read the first post in this thread. It's self explanatory:

Originally Posted by -Davo

I miss spelt Intelligent on purpose, because there is nothing intelligent about it.

Originally Posted by CL8

Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.

You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!!

Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."

I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

So does Darwinism!

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right?

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality.

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding

[blazee]

Originally Posted by CL8

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website"

You obviously didn't bother reading the first post before replying to this thread.

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right?

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality.

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding

Well said.

The Christian belief that Earth is only 6000 years old and the center of the universe, shows a complete disregard for science and things that have already been proven. Just take a look at our place in the universe.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right?

Right!

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding

But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do.

And Blazee, I might have glanced over the first post, but didn't see his comment, sorry.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

what you are supposing is akin to asking why can't we grow hamburgers.


creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

[MagicRat]

Originally Posted by CL8

Right!But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do.

As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes.

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe. There is no divine plan behind it. These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe.
For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically, which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes.

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe.There is no divine plan behind it

You might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe.

These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe.

But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)

For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically,

So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs

which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all.

If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

[MagicRat]

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion.

Originally Posted by CL8

You might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe.

Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true.

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well.

Originally Posted by CL8

But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.

You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence.

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.

Originally Posted by CL8

Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too.

It is a logical fallacy to say that just because we do not completely understand a thing or a process that somehow a magical man (or woman) made it.
It has been proven that matter and energy tend to organize themselves in particular, predictable ways. Given the tremendous length of time that life has existed on Earth (3.5 ++ billion years) that something as organized as mammals has come of it.

Again, life is similar to physics... when it is scientifically explored, it turns out to be predictable and obeys specific, understandible principles of chemistry and physics.

Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion.

You're welcome. I am actually a bible college graduate. I love studying and debating theology. If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true.

I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe. But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic) If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well.

Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?

You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence.

And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.



Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too.

How?

Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.

Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.

[drunken monkey]

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

Originally Posted by CL8

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

[CL8]

Originally Posted by drunken monkey

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

[MagicRat]

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head.

Originally Posted by CL8

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice.

Originally Posted by CL8

I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe.

A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'.

Originally Posted by CL8

But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic)

I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon.

Originally Posted by CL8

If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa.

Originally Posted by CL8

Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?

Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events.

Originally Posted by CL8

And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?

I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc.

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN and the Large Hadron Observatory, among others)

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him?

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be?

Originally Posted by CL8

How?

If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people?

Originally Posted by CL8

Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.

Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'?

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.

As for Newton, he was a product of a much different time. Back in Newtons' day, religious organizations played a much more significan role in people's lives.

Besides, it would appear he was an extremely unconventional Christian, for his time, so who knows what motivated him.

Historian Stephen D. Snobelen says of Newton, "Isaac Newton was a heretic. But ... he never made a public declaration of his private faith — which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs."[49] Snobelen concludes that Newton was at least a Socinian sympathiser (he owned and had thoroughly read at least eight Socinian books), possibly an Arian and almost certainly an antitrinitarian[49]. In an age notable for its religious intolerance there are few public expressions of Newton's radical views, most notably his refusal to take holy orders and his refusal, on his death bed, to take the sacrament when it was offered to him

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;

[CL8]

Originally Posted by MagicRat

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head.

NP

Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice.

It is really a lot a matter of faith and finding the right life occupation God has for me. I don't believe it's appropriate for a woman to be teaching adult men theology in a classroom setting, now I wouldn't mind teaching grade school boys, and girls or women bible and theology, and at times in my life I have had ministries where I have done that (Sunday school, jail ministry).

A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'.

I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon.

I agree with most of what you say here (not the part that I'm mixing apples and oranges).
It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together. Also you have no conclusive proof no god was involved in the phenomenon of the universe

Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa.

My point was, if no intellect was involved in putting the universe together, then LOGICALLY there should be no need for intelligence to figure it out.

the answer to why people strive to better themselves is, they know and see they are imperfect and are trying to become perfect, where most fall short is in admitting no human will reach perfection UNLESS a holy creator intervenes to make them perfect (thats where Christ comes in.)

Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events.

I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx


I will respond to the rest a little later.

[drunken monkey]

Originally Posted by CL8

It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together.

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists?

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?

[Gohan Ryu]

People who believe in God do not require scientific proof or material evidence that God exists. That is why their belief is referred to as "faith". Most believers are either taught by their parents to have faith, or they have some kind of spiritual experience that changes them. Believers can't impart faith on those who don't believe, and non-believers can't prove to believers that God does not exist, mainly because their belief is based on "faith" and not "proof".

I believe in God just to cover my ass. I mean, if there really is a God I want all of the benefits that believers are supposed to get in the afterlife (free satellite TV, Medicare, 1000 virgins, etc...). And if there is no God then no harm done.